Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[HVC]

Well, for one thing, the USSR had never done anything to upend the international order this much. What Russia is doing now is in some ways more dangerous the USSR ever did.

Well, it wasn't for lack of trying.  The Soviets did their best to sponsor left-wing politics in the US, but it wasn't until the internet and the distance from any kind of real hardship that their ploys could become really effective.

And they switched from paying the left wing to paying the right.

They payed both sides though, for maximum effect and chaos.

Fair enough, but it seems the bribes earmarked for the right were much more effective.

[Sheilbh]

The USSR was one of the two pillars of the post-war international order - I'm not sure how they could upend it, until their collapse (which absolutely did).

As I say I'm not saying we should be having them round for big visits, or regular summits like this. But I just think those high level meetings (probably not leader level) are important for communication but also getting a read on each other. I don't think diplomacy is a treat or just for friends. And it should have been coordinated so via Kyiv, probably one or two countries taking the lead (not Germany!) and consulting widely.

I think there's been overreaction to Putin saying the word "nuclear" - and I think that would have been less likely had there been senior Western leaders having recently met their Russian counterpart because I think we would have had that temperature-taking view to put those remarks in context. Similarly understanding actual red lines and communicating ours - we've relied a lot on Turkiye, Gulf States and China as the interlocutors. I think that's been a mistake (though not disputing the important role those countries have played).

[mongers]

Nuclear proliferation is a realistic measure that would give Ukraine significant deterrence. European powers have the means to do that. More realistic than large ground forces.

Yep, Nukes for Poland, Ukraine, Sweden and the three Baltic republics. 

No Finland? 

I specifically left out Finland as they have the near most extensive artillery force in Europe and they certainly the European country that has gutted their military the least during the peace dividend years.

Though it would be amusing to have Finland equipped with tactial nuke and those deployed within 100km of Leningrad. 

[Josquius]

Well, for one thing, the USSR had never done anything to upend the international order this much. What Russia is doing now is in some ways more dangerous the USSR ever did.

Well, it wasn't for lack of trying.  The Soviets did their best to sponsor left-wing politics in the US, but it wasn't until the internet and the distance from any kind of real hardship that their ploys could become really effective.

Fair.

With the Soviets sponsoring left wing groups their goal was Marxist revolution.
They wanted to build something. Something where they had enemies actively working against it.

The current Russian approach is just trying to destroy everything. Oh sure they've giving the bulk of their support to the far right and this is what they want to win...
But they're also stirring up idiots on the left and their main goal is just division and destruction. Right wing victories are a nice to have.

[Neil]

The goal of the Soviets and the Russians was identical:  a world where the Russian empire grows.  The idea that they're complete nihilists just isn't defensible. 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Well, for one thing, the USSR had never done anything to upend the international order this much. What Russia is doing now is in some ways more dangerous the USSR ever did.

Well, it wasn't for lack of trying.  The Soviets did their best to sponsor left-wing politics in the US, but it wasn't until the internet and the distance from any kind of real hardship that their ploys could become really effective.

And they switched from paying the left wing to paying the right.

They payed both sides though, for maximum effect and chaos.

Fair enough, but it seems the bribes earmarked for the right were much more effective.

Definately

[viper37]

I don't know who Trump & co think they are fooling.

47% of Americans and a lot of people in occidental countries.  Still 43% of Canadians aged 18-34 who would vote to become American under Trump.

[Josquius]

The goal of the Soviets and the Russians was identical:  a world where the Russian empire grows.  The idea that they're complete nihilists just isn't defensible. 

I'm not so sure there. The Soviet Union absolutely did have its naked imperialists for whom the red paint was just a cover, but it also had lots of true believers too.
I can't think of the Soviets supporting right wing groups just to stir shit the way the current Russians will back whoever looks likely to cause division, even both sides at once.

I never said the Russians were nihilists. The chaos and destruction abroad isn't for its own sake but to enhance Russias position of course. E.g. Drive a wedge between the UK and the rest of Europe and successfully invading Ukraine looks more likely.

[viper37]

The US has just capitulated to Russia.
Link

The country has betrayed everyone.  Republicans are chanting in joy as their world burn.

[celedhring]

Maybe they should have brought that reset button again.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

The US has just capitulated to Russia.
Link

The country has betrayed everyone.  Republicans are chanting in joy as their world burn.

They're going to "engage" and "consult" Ukraine on a deal to end a defensive war they are a key belligerent in?  I can't even with these assholes.

Maybe they should have brought that reset button again.

Hopefully the next reset button is attached to France's warning nukes.

[Grey Fox]

The US has just capitulated to Russia.
Link

The country has betrayed everyone.  Republicans are chanting in joy as their world burn.

Unless he can make Elmo do something thru an EO, that meeting was a nothing burger.

[The Minsky Moment]

It is a something burger. 
When it comes from foreign policy, the President doesn't need Congress or an EO.  He can just act. 

Extract the signal from the noise and the message is consistent.  The US is selling its diplomatic and potentially military support to the highest bidder.  The United States is transforming from the pillar of the postwar order that guaranteed peace and security for 80 years into a 21st century version of the early modern exploitative overseas venture corporations, like the Dutch or English Indies companies.

The leaked document proposal to Ukraine is insane but also revealing.  It is a variant on a typical form of a commercial agreement between two corporations. Trump thinks that being President means he literally owns the United States.  And he is operating his American property as if it were any other real estate development venture he owns or controls. "Foreign policy" is just a corporate negotiation.  Once you realize that, everything he is doing logically follows.

[Valmy]

I can't see the article. What are the terms?

[Zanza]

I can't see the article. What are the terms?

Russia and ExxonMobile get what they want.