Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[crazy canuck]

There was an interesting point in an opinion piece in the NYTimes today, developed around the fact that no one country can produce a smart phone.  The piece went through all the processes, that are spread across a number of countries to demonstrate how interdependent the world economies have become. 

But that take home message is that the areas of specialization in a modern economy are not who produces what widgets most efficiently, it is who has specialized knowledge.  And it is the collaboration of groups throughout the world bringing together their particular specialized knowledge that makes the continuing development of our world possible.

And none of that is possible without underlying trust, cooperation and respect.  Guess what things Trump is destroying with reckless abandon.

[Sheilbh]

There was an interesting point in an opinion piece in the NYTimes today, developed around the fact that no one country can produce a smart phone.  The piece went through all the processes, that are spread across a number of countries to demonstrate how interdependent the world economies have become. 

But that take home message is that the areas of specialization in a modern economy are not who produces what widgets most efficiently, it is who has specialized knowledge.  And it is the collaboration of groups throughout the world bringing together their particular specialized knowledge that makes the continuing development of our world possible.

And none of that is possible without underlying trust, cooperation and respect.  Guess what things Trump is destroying with reckless abandon.

My slight complication to that would be to look at it from a class perspective in a country or society. All of that's true - but within a country who is benefiting in the shift from widget production to specialised knowledge with global collaboration of people with specialised knowledge? Who's losing?

I think that is a pretty important part of why we are where we are - that's the model that created the conditions for this world in all sorts of ways. Populist backlash, economic interdependency presenting vulnerabilities other actors etc. I'm not sure the virtues of the old model any longer outweigh the risks - and I'm not sure its defenders have solutions to them, or even see them as problems/risks.

Hasn't Zelensky been pretty acerbic thoughout? Or was he "nicer" with the US?

He does both - and it's worth saying that it's not just Trump's team who've queried the decision (largely supported in Ukrainian society) around delaying elections and some of the personnel decisions around Zelensky. He does the flattering but can always be acerbic to make his point - I think there was an early point when there was a very exasperated meeting of Western leaders who felt they were being berated and Ben Wallace basically told Zelensky to sometimes remember to thank/acknowledge what other countries are doing, which he did.

[crazy canuck]

You are raising a different issue.  If a country (all countries) have appropriate taxation policies, then the wealth generated would be for the benefit of all.  If wealth isn't generated then you are correct, class distinctions become less important as everyone will be the equivalent of a subsistence farmer.

[The Brain]

The US is now an openly hostile country, and European countries have to act accordingly. IMMEDIATELY shut down all sharing of information and other resources with US military and intelligence services. Kick US forces out of European countries. Leave Nato, which as an added bonus will get rid of Hungary and Turkey. Form European security based on friendly countries, not Nazis like the US.

[Threviel]

You're entirely correct Brainy. We meed to be Machiavellian and behave like adults.

Europe has the capability to be the strongest bloc in a multipolar world, but we need to act now.

[crazy canuck]

If Europe does not unite now, the US and Russia will pick you off one by one. After Ukraine comes Germany. After Germany comes the Baltic States, and so on and so on.

[Threviel]

Yep.

It's a bleak future. Especially as Europe itself is on the brink politically with lots of fascist parties growing in almost every country.

If any of the big three goes the way of the US we're really in the shit.

[crazy canuck]

Yep, its why the Trumpists are all in on the German election.  If that goes to the fascists, that is the ball game folks.

[Syt]

I did my part, but yeah.

[Barrister]

Trump says Ukraine should not have started the war.

He says they should have made a deal. Which is of course silly.

The even worse part is that he takes over the Russian narrative that Selensky is illegitimate because there have been no elections under martial law in Ukraine. You cannot negotiate with someone you say has no legitimacy.

Looks like a 100% sell out to the Russians. Let's see what the price of Taiwan will be.

You can see the gambit here.  Russia will insist that voting occur on territories it controls - never mind that Russia claims those people are Russian.  It would be almost impossible to hold a free and fair election given what is sure to be rampant Russian interference.

Or even without insisting on voting in occupied territories, the Kremlin will not accept any unfavourable result.  If Zelenskyy wins they'll blame that Medvedchuk (or whomever) wasn't allowed to run, then press forward with the war.

[Josquius]

I'm surprised zelensky hadn't outright promised to resign in exchange for American aid. Call their bluff.

[Tamas]

What the actual fuck, this is infuriating. At this rate there will be US airstrikes on Ukraine before the week is over.

Fuck everyone who voted for this moron, we may very well see results of ww2's allied victory wiped out in Europe, because of this fucking aasuole and all the talentless reckless chanchers working for him.

[Sophie Scholl]

Rapists hating and blaming victims who fight back seen through an international diplomacy lens. 

[Zanza]

Yep, its why the Trumpists are all in on the German election.  If that goes to the fascists, that is the ball game folks.

It won't go to the fascists unless the Conservatives decide to enable the fascists.

[Threviel]

That's acceptable, as long as the conservatives run the government, the social democrats are full of traitors and idiots.