Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[crazy canuck]

And right on cue, we get the bromide of the slippery slope. Well done.

 

What's the idiom bromide means here? I googled it but it only raised more questions.

I am not sure if this is a dictionary definition, but it is often used as a term to describe an old trite justification that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.  But repeat it enough times and people start to believe it.

Slippery slope arguments are one of the best examples.

"I don't trust doctors" is a specific example here. 

[crazy canuck]

You appear to have much more faith in the accuracy of the medical profession and NHS than I do.

Yeah - I fairly sympathise with Jason Okundaye's take: "my position on assisted dying is I agree with it but I don't agree with this country doing it".

 

You just can't have a reasoned debate when someone is employing that kind of "logic".

[garbon]

You appear to have much more faith in the accuracy of the medical profession and NHS than I do.

Yeah - I fairly sympathise with Jason Okundaye's take: "my position on assisted dying is I agree with it but I don't agree with this country doing it".

 

You just can't have a reasoned debate when someone is employing that kind of "logic".

Nor can you have a conversation when you're so quick to dismiss people you don't even consider their experiences.

[crazy canuck]

Nor can you have a conversation when you're so quick to dismiss people you don't even consider their experiences.

First, your experiences with getting treated for ailments does not in any way equip you to make any judgments about the ability of doctors to deal with issues related to MAID.

Second, if you want to talk about more relevant experience, I have seen a close family member in palliative care living in agony, dosed on pain killing drugs which didn't really work, for months. Until mercifully someone likely gave a bit too much pain killer and the pain came to an end.

That all happened years before the Supreme Court of Canada required the Federal government to bring in MAID legislation in Canada. 

[garbon]

Nor can you have a conversation when you're so quick to dismiss people you don't even consider their experiences.

First, your experiences with getting treated for ailments does not in any way equip you to make any judgments about the ability of doctors to deal with issues related to MAID.

Second, if you want to talk about more relevant experience, I have seen a close family member in palliative care living in agony, dosed on pain killing drugs which didn't really work, for months. Until mercifully someone likely gave a bit too much pain killer and the pain came to an end.

That all happened years before the Supreme Court of Canada required the Federal government to bring in MAID legislation in Canada. 

So as I said you are unwilling to learn about experiences others have had. You just presume what they are.

[crazy canuck]

Nor can you have a conversation when you're so quick to dismiss people you don't even consider their experiences.

First, your experiences with getting treated for ailments does not in any way equip you to make any judgments about the ability of doctors to deal with issues related to MAID.

Second, if you want to talk about more relevant experience, I have seen a close family member in palliative care living in agony, dosed on pain killing drugs which didn't really work, for months. Until mercifully someone likely gave a bit too much pain killer and the pain came to an end.

That all happened years before the Supreme Court of Canada required the Federal government to bring in MAID legislation in Canada. 

So as I said you are unwilling to learn about experiences others have had. You just presume what they are.

Not really, you have been pretty open with your experiences in the back room.  Granted, there may be something more recent.  But I really doubt you are currently a candidate for MAID, and so I am still not sure what your experience with another part of the health sector has to do with this issue.

It seems to me you are the one making some pretty big assumptions based on your limited experience.

[Josquius]

Cool fact I've heard.
New transport secretary Heidi Alexander being appointed means for the first time ever the cabinet is 100% state educated :flatcap:

[Sheilbh]

I find it weird the way you viewed the British state's handling of covid but are so comfortable with the same health and social care systems implementing assisted dying.

I slightly struggle to reconcile the two.

[mongers]

And right on cue, we get the bromide of the slippery slope. Well done.

 

What's the idiom bromide means here? I googled it but it only raised more questions.

I am not sure if this is a dictionary definition, but it is often used as a term to describe an old trite justification that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.  But repeat it enough times and people start to believe it.

Slippery slope arguments are one of the best examples.

"I don't trust doctors" is a specific example here. 

I'm very likely wrong, but I thought it's derived from the photographic process to produce graphics and text for newspapers and printed advertising material etc?

Edit:
Yep, no surprise I hadn't' heard it as it's an American expression from the turn of the 20th century popularised by homorist Gelett Burgess. It means "a dull, conventional person or a trite saying"  . Well at least according to my dictionary of Etymology.

[crazy canuck]

 

I didn't realize it was only a North American saying - and only an English American saying at that.

[mongers]

I didn't realize it was only a North American saying - and only an English American saying at that.

Yes and it's possibly a class imbibed expression, my guess is, it's comparing the inferior print quality of a bromide photographic image versus one produced using paper coated in silver halide solution. So it's referencing something only the lower classes could have just afford to have.

[Tamas]

I find it weird the way you viewed the British state's handling of covid but are so comfortable with the same health and social care systems implementing assisted dying.

I slightly struggle to reconcile the two.

Frankly, there's very little to screw up here, I think. I don't think misdiagnosis is a risk because people won't be asking to die unless they are suffering severely. And past that, what is there to do badly? Somebody would prefer to suffer and struggle for a couple months more but immense pressure from their family to get their inheritance a couple months earlier manages to push their death through despite the two doctors, one judge, 2 weeks cool-off period safety nets? That would be unfortunate but this will be extremely rare compared to the thousands of people who will be spared suffering.

Once we progress on the so-called slippery slope, I may adjust my opinion. If we end up with a system where all it takes is for a computer-says-no nurse to ask you once, check a box, and the next hour they are coming with the injection, yeah I'll be sharing your angst then. This bill is the bare minimum which will help only a very specific set of people. It's not enough, but it will also severely limit the ways it can go bad.

[Barrister]

Frankly, there's very little to screw up here, I think. I don't think misdiagnosis is a risk because people won't be asking to die unless they are suffering severely. And past that, what is there to do badly? Somebody would prefer to suffer and struggle for a couple months more but immense pressure from their family to get their inheritance a couple months earlier manages to push their death through despite the two doctors, one judge, 2 weeks cool-off period safety nets? That would be unfortunate but this will be extremely rare compared to the thousands of people who will be spared suffering.

Once we progress on the so-called slippery slope, I may adjust my opinion. If we end up with a system where all it takes is for a computer-says-no nurse to ask you once, check a box, and the next hour they are coming with the injection, yeah I'll be sharing your angst then. This bill is the bare minimum which will help only a very specific set of people. It's not enough, but it will also severely limit the ways it can go bad.

The concern about "slippery slope" is that it won't be patients asking for MAID - but rather it will be health care professionals coming by and saying "so should we schedule you for MAID then"?

Consent is really kind of tricky when it comes to the medical profession.  Because you can get consent in either scenario - but how meaningful and informed is it?

In my job - I certainly can't get everyone to agree with positions I take - but I know what buttons to push, and what questions to ask, if I have a preferred decision.  And that's when I think I'm a pretty ethical person.  If someone wasn't so scrupulous I could push the numbers even higher.

[Tamas]

Again, I can imagine an extension of assisted dying being done in a bad way. I'll worry about that once that extension happen and we'll know the details. I am not going to want to condemn thousands of people -potentially myself included- to a tormented nightmare of months-long agonising death just because this VERY limited bill MIGHT at some point in the future, assuming a series of various fuckups by legislators, be the precursor of a badly regulated MAID law.

I can't understand how you guys can have this position.

[Sheilbh]

In my job - I certainly can't get everyone to agree with positions I take - but I know what buttons to push, and what questions to ask, if I have a preferred decision.  And that's when I think I'm a pretty ethical person.  If someone wasn't so scrupulous I could push the numbers even higher.

Or, worse, if you were an ethical, scrupulous person who thought you were doing the right thing.