Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[crazy canuck]

The CBC ran a long story about the bill this morning.  What I heard from the detractors were the same old bromides that we heard in Canada when the legislation was introduced here.

I also observed that the UK legislators who are against MAID really don't understand the Canadian system.

And right on cue, we get the bromide of the slippery slope. Well done.

[Tamas]

You're the one who wants the slippery slope - that's why.

Yeah let's make sure disabled people are ok with it when we potentially get to the point of the option being opened up for them. BTW I don't think I'd be comfortable with a "you need a wheelchair? We can help you suicide if you want" level law.

Thinking that on... I don't think the state has the right to tell people that they cannot end their life. the obvious challenge is that if you have very free-form state-assisted suicide (one that doesn't exist anywhere except in people's overblown objections) you end up killing people who are suicidal for entirely fixable reasons. And if you just don't do state-assisted suicides, you drive people to DIY methods.

Now, right now we are banning both. Sure you are not punished for killing yourself but you are forced to shut off all help, even knowledge of your intentions by those close to you (I don't care how many people are actually sent to prison, the risk is there). This is akin to banning abortion which then drives desperate women to desperate solutions which helps absolutely nobody least of all the women or the fetuses.

That could lead to the conclusion of de-criminalising/easing sanctions on helping family members' suicides. In a way that could potentially even reduce suicides since people would feel they could confine to others without sending them to prison by it. But this IS a slippery slope for coercion.

So, wouldn't a "liberal" assisted suicide law coupled with the strict (or even stricter) sanctioning of "private" assistance be the best solution? Channel people with suicidal thoughts to a state system where they can be dissuaded and reviewed.

[Sheilbh]

This will be very close. Based on MPs' stated positions 224 have indicated they'll support it, 218 that they'll oppose.

I think they're voting now.

Edit: Incidentally totally separately Lou Haigh having to step down as Transport Secretary seems to be setting an insanely low bar for resignations - and I've seen lots from Metro-Mayors (especially in the North) being really gutted. Even on Tory side consensus was she was smart, knew what she wanted to do and was pretty effective - all quite good things in any minister but especially Transport

[Josquius]

So it seems this hasn't even been passed into law and it's just a preliminary thing to investigate how to do it?

In that case in my eyes there were no valid arguments against bar penny pinching.

[Sheilbh]

330-275 in favour. Very close - and I can only hope all the problems with this bill can be fixed in the rest of the process (I'm not sure they can procedurally).

Personally I am certain we'll have the first public inquiry into this law going terribly wrong in x NHS Trust/care home within a decade - and not a single MP can say they weren't aware of that risk.

[Sheilbh]

So it seems this hasn't even been passed into law and it's just a preliminary thing to investigate how to do it?

That's technically right but practically not - procedurally this is the most important vote. It can be amended and I hope it is but there's less opportunity for that than if it was a government bill.

And to be absolutely clear it is not about investigating how to do it, how to do it is the content of the bill. It is the legislation.

[Tamas]

Well I am glad that odds are if I meet my end by some particularly nasty disease/condition, I will not have to suffer through to the very end of it.

[crazy canuck]

The bill is overly restrictive, but at least it is a start.  Once people in England and Wales get over all the bromides the opposition through at them, perhaps in the future the legislation can be amended so that people don't have to suffer when their death is inevitable.

[crazy canuck]

Well I am glad that odds are if I meet my end by some particularly nasty disease/condition, I will not have to suffer through to the very end of it.

Unfortunately, you will have to suffer up until the prognosticated last six months.  God help you if you have a debilitating painful disease that lasts more than six months.

[garbon]

People don't have to suffer when their death is inevitable.

You appear to have much more faith in the accuracy of the medical profession and NHS than I do.

[crazy canuck]

People don't have to suffer when their death is inevitable.

You appear to have much more faith in the accuracy of the medical profession and NHS than I do.

And you appear to be more comfortable with people suffering painful deaths more than I am.

[Tamas]

Well I am glad that odds are if I meet my end by some particularly nasty disease/condition, I will not have to suffer through to the very end of it.

Unfortunately, you will have to suffer up until the prognosticated last six months.  God help you if you have a debilitating painful disease that lasts more than six months.

Yeah but as you said, hopefully it's a first step to prove it doesn't lead to disabled people being executed en masse.