Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

I would say it's hypocritical to oppose the existence of one settler-colonist country and while being okay with living in one.

One can't really do much about historical dead vs what one can do with ongoing conflicts.

Oh, sure we can do things.  We can give the land back.  We're sorry, but not that sorry.  The whole "The source of all our wealth is bad, you people shouldn't do what we did to become the richest country in the world" sits uneasily for me.  

For the Decolonization advocates that is the point.  They want to abolish the US and then we would live in some kind of socialist ecotopia ruled by native Americans, cause native Americans were in perfect harmony with nature.

[Valmy]

I would say it's hypocritical to oppose the existence of one settler-colonist country and while being okay with living in one.

Well there is a pretty distinct difference between accepting the existence of a settler-colonist country and actively seeking the expansion or creation of them.

Oh, sure we can do things.  We can give the land back.  We're sorry, but not that sorry.  The whole "The source of all our wealth is bad, you people shouldn't do what we did to become the richest country in the world" sits uneasily for me. 

For the Decolonization advocates that is the point.  They want to abolish the US and then we would live in some kind of socialist ecotopia ruled by native Americans, cause native Americans were in perfect harmony with nature.

I mean you didn't do it, you were just born here.

And abolishing the US and do some kind of restoration of the true Americans or whatever is just not going to happen, any more than we can just remove all the Turks from Anatolia and move in some Greeks to restore the world of the 9th century or something.

History happened and here we are. But we should try to do better and learn from the past yes? I think we can all agree colonialism is bad yes?

Also I don't really agree with the notion that Israel is a settler-colonialist state anyway.

[Habbaku]

Apparently the terminology is "Black" with a capitol B.

I apologize and I promise to do better in the future.

While we're at it, it's "capital". The Capitol is a building.

[Razgovory]

I still live on stolen land!  And if the that is bad I should give it up (full disclosure: I'm poor and don't own any land).  We aren't going to give it up or abolish the US because it would be costly and inconvenient.

I don't think I'd get very far with "Yeah, my dad stole your car, but he died last week.  It's mine now.  History happened.  Deal with it."

[Barrister]

Apparently the terminology is "Black" with a capitol B.

I apologize and I promise to do better in the future.

While we're at it, it's "capital". The Capitol is a building.

I apologize and promise to do better in the future.

[garbon]

I still live on stolen land!  And if the that is bad I should give it up (full disclosure: I'm poor and don't own any land).  We aren't going to give it up or abolish the US because it would be costly and inconvenient.

I don't think I'd get very far with "Yeah, my dad stole your car, but he died last week.  It's mine now.  History happened.  Deal with it."

Stop being absurd.

That said I do think it was a fitting retort to Viper given how many times he tries to litigate 19th century Canadian history.

[Valmy]

I still live on stolen land!  And if the that is bad I should give it up (full disclosure: I'm poor and don't own any land).  We aren't going to give it up or abolish the US because it would be costly and inconvenient.

I don't think I'd get very far with "Yeah, my dad stole your car, but he died last week.  It's mine now.  History happened.  Deal with it."

Ok so either destroy the entire western hemisphere national order and displace millions or accept that stealing land is good?

I guess that is an opinion.

[Razgovory]

I still live on stolen land!  And if the that is bad I should give it up (full disclosure: I'm poor and don't own any land).  We aren't going to give it up or abolish the US because it would be costly and inconvenient.

I don't think I'd get very far with "Yeah, my dad stole your car, but he died last week.  It's mine now.  History happened.  Deal with it."

Ok so either destroy the entire western hemisphere national order and displace millions or accept that stealing land is good?

I guess that is an opinion.

It is a conundrum.  I admit, I had been reading a bunch of this Settler-Colonialism stuff because it came up so often regards Israel.

[viper37]

I would say it's hypocritical to oppose the existence of one settler-colonist country and while being okay with living in one.

Lots of treaties were made being The various First Nations and the Government of Quebec to correct past mistakes.  Nothing is perfect, and we still depend on the Federal government for many things, but at least we try.

There are more than one treaty with the Cree about hydro-electrical exploitation on their territories, for example.  Not 17th centuries, but treaties signed in the late 20th or early 21st century.

Other nations have their treaties too.  It's more complicated with some others.

[viper37]

I still live on stolen land!  And if the that is bad I should give it up (full disclosure: I'm poor and don't own any land).  We aren't going to give it up or abolish the US because it would be costly and inconvenient.

I don't think I'd get very far with "Yeah, my dad stole your car, but he died last week.  It's mine now.  History happened.  Deal with it."

Ok so either destroy the entire western hemisphere national order and displace millions or accept that stealing land is good?

I guess that is an opinion.

It is a conundrum.  I admit, I had been reading a bunch of this Settler-Colonialism stuff because it came up so often regards Israel.

I wasn't aware that Quebec and Canada were actively displacing the native population to make room for their own settlers as we speak now.  I was also unaware of the campaign of terror waged by our army to intimidate these people into leaving their territory on their own so we could then claim it as our own.

Our newspapers are so unreliable.  Silly us. Thankfully, we have the New York Times, the Atlantic, the Washington Post and such prestige newspapers to report on this situation happening in their backyard. Right?  Right?

[Razgovory]

Are you forcing colonialist culture on an indigenous land?

[Iormlund]

I would say it's hypocritical to oppose the existence of one settler-colonist country and while being okay with living in one.

One can't really do much about historical dead vs what one can do with ongoing conflicts.

Ongoing is a bit of a stretch. Most of the people whose land was lost are long dead. 1948 was 76 years ago. Yet there are more "refugees" in Gaza now than there were Palestinians alive in 1948.

[Tamas]

Raz is mostly being silly but I get where he is coming from. You say Canadians etc don't need to recompense the natives they pushed out (BTW being hung up on treaties is also telling. I am sure we could find some locals who signed treaties with the European colonisers of Africa in the late 19th century yet we don't go around saying it was fine there is paperwork) because they were already born there. OK so how does that apply to the Israel situation? If the recent West Bank settlers manage to hold out until their children reach adulthood, transfer their property to their names and then it's all settled they can stay?

Or what about land taken in 1967 which many pro-Palestinians (maybe including the UN) want Israel to vacate surely there are people living there who were born in Israel after 1967.

It is not as hypocritical as Raz suggests to wave your treaties you signed with illiterate people whom had no concept of European legalities, but it is a bit hypocritical.

[The Minsky Moment]

I would say it's hypocritical to oppose the existence of one settler-colonist country and while being okay with living in one.

One can't really do much about historical dead vs what one can do with ongoing conflicts.

So the implication is that everything is business as usual ("nothing we can do about it now") IF the settlers definitively displace the locals and a generation passes.   That's a view of the world that incentivizes ethnic cleansing.

I'm not on board with all of Raz's commentary, but he has a point about the way in which academic theories of settler colonialism are being deployed politically. If you take that approach seriously, then it necessarily has massive implications for anyone that lives on land that was once occupied by people who were displaced.  Which means just about everyone currently living on the planet. Including the Palestinians.

[Razgovory]

Nobody is ever on board with all of Raz's commentary.   And of course Raz is being silly.