Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Barrister]

You're so fucking stupid if you're going to bitch about American contributions to Ukraine. We are the only reason they have been able to resist at all, I'm sorry our GDP is vastly bigger than most of the other bitch countries in the West, but that's your fault for having small and weak fuck countries. We have given more money to Ukraine than most countries spend on their entire military in 5 years time.

I strenuously disagree with the bolded.

The reason Ukraine has been able to resist is because of the Ukrainians.

The USA thought Ukraine would collapse within days.  The American solution was to offer to give Zelensky an airlift out of the country.  Which led to his epic line of "I need ammo, not a ride".

America should be thanked for its aid to Ukraine.  Thank you.  Hell I'll even thank speaker Mike Johnston who despite being Trumpy did eventually pass a substantial Ukraine aid bill.

But don't go patting yourself on the back too hard OvB.  Per capita the US is far from Ukraine's biggest allies - that geos to Poland and the Baltics.  The US has also consistently put limits on its aid to Ukraine - giving enough aid so that Ukraine doesn't lose, but not enough so that they win.

[Valmy]

I'll throw a reset button in too, for good measure.

And again that was mocked for being ignorant at the time.

There was this sense by Obama and company that somehow Dubya's "with me or against me" attitude had poisoned our foreign relations and he was going to fix it all. But, at least in this case, the problem was coming from Russia not Bush.

[Barrister]

The thing is - A: hindsight is 20/20, as they say.  Trusting in Putin wasn't necessarily so stupid back in 2001.

Dude. I mean people gave Dubya shit for it at the time for a reason.

I think people gave Dubya shit because of the "I looked in his eyes" bit.  No idea if he meant it or not, but it was a stupid thing to say.

But like I said - while trusting in Putin was comically hilarious in hindsight, I don't think in 2001 it was so obviously stupid.

[The Brain]

Trusting Russia is always obviously stupid.

[Barrister]

I'll throw a reset button in too, for good measure.

And again that was mocked for being ignorant at the time.

There was this sense by Obama and company that somehow Dubya's "with me or against me" attitude had poisoned our foreign relations and he was going to fix it all. But, at least in this case, the problem was coming from Russia not Bush.

So on the one hand Trump has caused me to reconsider a lot of former politicians.  Obama was certainly someone who for better or worse was trying to do what he thought was best for the country.

But on the other hand - the arrogance of that man was outstanding.  He thought all of America's geo-political problems were just due to the former guy, and he thought he could "solve" them.  Hence the Russia re-set, or the Iran nuclear deal.  He never seemed to realize that a lot of America's geo-political problems were because America was dealing with bad dudes.  While I'm willing to cut GWB a little bit of slack over Putin in 2001, by 2009 the situation was obviously different - Russia had already invaded Georgia, which was just a prelude to the invasion of Ukraine in 2014, and again in 2022.

[Barrister]

Trusting Russia is always obviously stupid.

"Trust, but verify".

[crazy canuck]

Even Rice and Cheney were very concerned about what Bush had said at that time, not just in hindsight.

[Valmy]

But on the other hand - the arrogance of that man was outstanding.  He thought all of America's geo-political problems were just due to the former guy, and he thought he could "solve" them.  Hence the Russia re-set, or the Iran nuclear deal.  He never seemed to realize that a lot of America's geo-political problems were because America was dealing with bad dudes.  While I'm willing to cut GWB a little bit of slack over Putin in 2001, by 2009 the situation was obviously different - Russia had already invaded Georgia, which was just a prelude to the invasion of Ukraine in 2014, and again in 2022.

I thought the Iran nuclear deal was great. We sort of tamed Egypt through bribes, and it kind of looked like we had done the same with Iran. And unlike the Egypt situation we were bribing Iran with its own money instead of our own taxpayers.

But I guess we will never know now if it was going to work out.

And yes Obama was incredibly arrogant and stupid when it came to Russia.

But I recall Marty at the time saying it was funny how Bill Clinton, Dubya, and then Obama all came into the White House sure they could work with Russia and make Russia a friend and left the White House concluding Russia was the United States' biggest enemy. None of them learned a thing from the experience of their predecessor. Poland isn't right about much but they know Russia.

[DGuller]

I imagine that US intelligence agencies already had indications in 2001 that Putin was capable of blowing up hundreds of his own citizens to start a war.  Therefore, even in 2001, analyzing Putin's eyes was naive. That said, it may have been naive in 2001, but it was treasonous in 2020.

[Barrister]

[Barrister]

I imagine that US intelligence agencies already had indications in 2001 that Putin was capable of blowing up hundreds of his own citizens to start a war.  Therefore, even in 2001, analyzing Putin's eyes was naive. That said, it may have been naive in 2001, but it was treasonous in 2020.

Has that ever been proven?

Or I mean I guess "proven" is kind of a hard thing for something that happened in a foreign hostile power - but did US intelligence ever come to believe that Russian intelligence bombed those apartment buildings in 1999?

Don't get me wrong - I don't have any difficulty believing Putin is the kind of man who would do such a thing.  But I'm also kind of burnt out on fake allegations of "false flag" operations (usually made by US conspiracy mongers, but still).

[crazy canuck]

Even Rice and Cheney were very concerned about what Bush had said at that time, not just in hindsight.

What I said is accurate.  Go read up on it a bit.

Don't just be childish.

[Barrister]

[Barrister]

But on the other hand - the arrogance of that man was outstanding.  He thought all of America's geo-political problems were just due to the former guy, and he thought he could "solve" them.  Hence the Russia re-set, or the Iran nuclear deal.  He never seemed to realize that a lot of America's geo-political problems were because America was dealing with bad dudes.  While I'm willing to cut GWB a little bit of slack over Putin in 2001, by 2009 the situation was obviously different - Russia had already invaded Georgia, which was just a prelude to the invasion of Ukraine in 2014, and again in 2022.

I thought the Iran nuclear deal was great. We sort of tamed Egypt through bribes, and it kind of looked like we had done the same with Iran. And unlike the Egypt situation we were bribing Iran with its own money instead of our own taxpayers.

But I guess we will never know now if it was going to work out.

And yes Obama was incredibly arrogant and stupid when it came to Russia.

But I recall Marty at the time saying it was funny how Bill Clinton, Dubya, and then Obama all came into the White House sure they could work with Russia and make Russia a friend and left the White House concluding Russia was the United States' biggest enemy. None of them learned a thing from the experience of their predecessor. Poland isn't right about much but they know Russia.

On a related note - how every US President comes in promising to "pivot to China" yet comes away still focused on Russia (and Iran).

[crazy canuck]

For those who do want to know more about the advisors around Bush being concerned about the Bush Putin Bromance - and then with the passage of time even Bush realizing it was a mistake, but still thinking he could somehow reform Putin - here is a good read for you.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/11/06/the-seduction-of-george-w-bush/