Israel-Hamas War 2023

[DGuller]

In theory, it's possible to be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite.  In theory fusion reactors are possible.  In practice, anti-Zionists tend to parrot the talking points created by anti-Semites at the very least, and even if they don't start out being anti-Semitic themselves when falling down the anti-Zionist rabbit hole, they tend to get there over time.

[OttoVonBismarck]

If they were against nationalism in general then they wouldn't have to single out Jews. And obviously many support for instance a state for Palestinians, so nationalism in itself doesn't appear to be the issue.

Precisely. If that had some vested distaste for "nationalists" or nationalism, they would be taking significant issue with the Palestinian statehood movement, which is intrinsically a nationalist and supremacist movement itself.

I think a lot of the brain rot on these topics among the far left is they have adopted an "oppressor" and "oppressed" worldview, and carrying that through to the end often involves logical contradictions with other leftist/progressive worldview positions--particularly when someone they deem "oppressed" has deeply fascist / racist / religious fundamentalist views.

[Razgovory]

Define Zionism.
In 2024 when most speak of being against Zionism they mean it in the sense of religiously tinged expansionist ethno-nationalism. More against Israel's right than against all Israelis.

Can you prove this?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/12/how-zionist-became-a-slur-on-the-us-left

Pretty clear the left and right are speaking past each other when it comes to zionism.

I'll say this is how I view it from my side too. Fuck Zionism. Its MAGA on acid. Little different to Putinism.
Israel's right to exist? No country has an inherent right to exist. I reject this idea wherever it may emerge. Though Israel obviously does exist and its citizens want it to continue to do so. Its just beyond even considering that I'd disagree. Though obviously they do need to do better with minority rights and particular aspects of their foreign policy.

Yeah, so no proof.

[Valmy]

That's a bit of a con.  NPR said he voted down the infrastructure bill because he and other prog lefties wanted it joined with some free money bill.

They wanted the Build Back Better Bill instead we got the watered down one we got. But guys...still better than nothing.

[Valmy]

In theory, it's possible to be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite.  In theory fusion reactors are possible.  In practice, anti-Zionists tend to parrot the talking points created by anti-Semites at the very least, and even if they don't start out being anti-Semitic themselves when falling down the anti-Zionist rabbit hole, they tend to get there over time.

I don't know. Anti-Zionist is, in itself, a pretty extreme position. It implies a support for ethnically cleansing one of the groups in conflict out of the area. That is already radical enough to be unacceptable. Whether or not you love Jews living elsewhere.

I don't have many good things to say about either the Israeli government or the various gangsters that claim to be the government of Palestine but in neither case do I think either should be removed from their homes.

[The Minsky Moment]

That's a bit of a con.  NPR said he voted down the infrastructure bill because he and other prog lefties wanted it joined with some free money bill.

Oh for sure - it made me do a double take and think it was about another guy named Bowman. Very effective though.

It's telling because even in a district with a substantial Jewish population, a full throated attack based on Bowman's position on Israel was deemed not a viable option.

[crazy canuck]

Some here may find the historical context interesting.  Including the fact that anti-zionists were originally and to some extent continue to be Jewish.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/02/anti-zionism-antisemitism-israel-jews-came-first/

[Razgovory]

The people who thought, "Our European friends won't hurt us.  That is all in the past.  We don't need a state for ourselves".

[Valmy]

The people who thought, "Our European friends won't hurt us.  That is all in the past.  We don't need a state for ourselves".

More like "we are supposed to wait around and endure until the Messiah shows up."

[garbon]

I liked the bit about George Washinton's writings on how the US government gives no sanction to bigotry and no assistance to persecution.

[Valmy]

I liked the bit about George Washinton's writings on how the US government gives no sanction to bigotry and no assistance to persecution.

The very thought of doing so would be beyond the pale

[Josquius]

In theory, it's possible to be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite.  In theory fusion reactors are possible.  In practice, anti-Zionists tend to parrot the talking points created by anti-Semites at the very least, and even if they don't start out being anti-Semitic themselves when falling down the anti-Zionist rabbit hole, they tend to get there over time.

I don't know. Anti-Zionist is, in itself, a pretty extreme position. It implies a support for ethnically cleansing one of the groups in conflict out of the area. That is already radical enough to be unacceptable. Whether or not you love Jews living elsewhere.

I don't have many good things to say about either the Israeli government or the various gangsters that claim to be the government of Palestine but in neither case do I think either should be removed from their homes.

You can't ethnically cleanse the far right.
And removing people from their homes becomes a much more acceptable position when those homes are built on land stolen at gun point within my lifetime.
I wholeheartedly endorse the removal of Russians from their newly bought homes in the occupied regions of Ukraine.

Back in the real world Zionism is the idea that there should exist a Jewish state. AFAIK it was most famously expressed in Theodor Herzl's Der Judenstaat.

Yeah.... I really don't think bringing up a 19th century activist is particularly relevant to the modern understanding of the word.

If they were against nationalism in general then they wouldn't have to single out Jews. And obviously many support for instance a state for Palestinians, so nationalism in itself doesn't appear to be the issue.

Where do you get this idea that they're singling out Jews? Who is telling you this?
Look at people on the left speaking out against Israel and you'll find many of them speaking out against the far right at home and in other places too.

Show me any prominent "antizionist" who isn't also antisemitic.

And to be clear, because it should be--anyone who suggests Jews should be ethnically cleansed from Israel are intrinsically antisemitic.

Most Haredis?
Jonathan Glazer and most of those others who signed his letter of support?

Define Zionism.
In 2024 when most speak of being against Zionism they mean it in the sense of religiously tinged expansionist ethno-nationalism. More against Israel's right than against all Israelis.

Can you prove this?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/12/how-zionist-became-a-slur-on-the-us-left

Pretty clear the left and right are speaking past each other when it comes to zionism.

I'll say this is how I view it from my side too. Fuck Zionism. Its MAGA on acid. Little different to Putinism.
Israel's right to exist? No country has an inherent right to exist. I reject this idea wherever it may emerge. Though Israel obviously does exist and its citizens want it to continue to do so. Its just beyond even considering that I'd disagree. Though obviously they do need to do better with minority rights and particular aspects of their foreign policy.

Yeah, so no proof.

 
So you're literally incapable of reading something that doesn't conform to your views?

[Valmy]

You can't ethnically cleanse the far right.
And removing people from their homes becomes a much more acceptable position when those homes are built on land stolen at gun point within my lifetime.
I wholeheartedly endorse the removal of Russians from their newly bought homes in the occupied regions of Ukraine.

Yeah I am sure the Russians are all flooding into a warzone.

Anyway even if I might grudgingly tolerate removal of the settlements as a necessary evil to a Two-State solution (I would prefer they have the option to stay if they agree to accept the Palestinian State), anti-Zionism sort of implies removing the Jewish presence from area entirely.

But at this point any sort of Two-State solution is a pretty distant pipe dream. Right now we seem to be back to no solution.

[grumbler]

I don't know. Anti-Zionist is, in itself, a pretty extreme position. It implies a support for ethnically cleansing one of the groups in conflict out of the area. That is already radical enough to be unacceptable. Whether or not you love Jews living elsewhere.

Zionism is, in itself, a pretty extreme position, just as Christian nationalism is.  It implies support for the ethnic cleansing or political neutralization of non-Jews in whatever the Zionists claim as "Israel."  That is already radical enough to be contrary to modern Western concepts of self-determination and democracy, whether or not you love Jews living elsewhere.

The existence of Israel is a fait accompli.  The survival of its people depends on its continuing existence. But that does not mean that Jewish nationalism is any better than Christian nationalism or Islamic nationalism.  The religious nationalisms, like all nationalisms, are forces that must be moderated if there is to be any peace and stability in the regions over which they hold sway.

[Valmy]

I don't know. Anti-Zionist is, in itself, a pretty extreme position. It implies a support for ethnically cleansing one of the groups in conflict out of the area. That is already radical enough to be unacceptable. Whether or not you love Jews living elsewhere.

Zionism is, in itself, a pretty extreme position, just as Christian nationalism is.  It implies support for the ethnic cleansing or political neutralization of non-Jews in whatever the Zionists claim as "Israel."  That is already radical enough to be contrary to modern Western concepts of self-determination and democracy, whether or not you love Jews living elsewhere.

Yeah I would agree. Zionism is a nationalist position.

The existence of Israel is a fait accompli.  The survival of its people depends on its continuing existence. But that does not mean that Jewish nationalism is any better than Christian nationalism or Islamic nationalism.  The religious nationalisms, like all nationalisms, are forces that must be moderated if there is to be any peace and stability in the regions over which they hold sway.

100%

Currently it is a fait accompli. I just think the anti-Zionists think they can play a long enough game to eventually undo it.