Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

This is the fundamental problem in discussing a lot of issues with you Jos.  You fundamentally believe the above statement.  If you are a leftist you believe in those values - and therefore if you're a rightest you don't.  The left wing are inherently good, and inherently on the "right side of history" - therefore anything bad must either be right-wing, or else people misunderstand it and it's really good and left-wing.

If you think that way it raises the question: Are you sure you're not left wing?

A term to describe something where the opposite wouldn't be an equally valid thing to say is rather pointless.
Thus just saying something is good is a bit shit as obviously you'd say that. Nobody would ever say it's bad.

Equality is a core belief of the left.
The right have against that... I'm struggling to come up with a single word. But the idea that some people are better than others, the poor are lazy and benefits are bad, the rich deserve to be rich because reasons, and so on.
International solidarity is a core belief of the left.
Against that the right have a big belief in nations.
Peace... Well that's a bit of a trickier one. But certainly theres a lot more love for militarism on the right.

The fact is opposing Israels actions is perfectly consistent with general left wing beliefs without needing to introduce some "they just say that about them cos they're Jews" nonsense.

I'd really like to see examples of Anti-Zionists who say that Palestinian Nationalism is bad.

Why?  Seems pretty clear that one can be both a Palestinian Nationalist and an Anti-Zionist.

Yeah, no shit.  Josq was talking about leftist who believed that all nationalism was bad.  So where all the leftists against Palestinian nationalism.

You don't seem to understand the basics of left wing beliefs here.
Nationalism in the leftist sense of national liberation is generally seen as a completely different thing to right wing nationalism in the sense of my country is inherently better than yours, my country should get more at its neighbors expense.
It's punching up and punching down.

For the record I'm not big on nationalism even in the left wing sense. But it is clearly a lesser wrong.

Yet these people openly ally with Fascists.  They call for the destruction of Israel.  You act as if these people are some fringe, they are the core of the movement.  They are the ones who organize the rallies and protests.  It's not the "well, maybe Israel shouldn't be such be dicks" constituency.  The fact is you couldn't identify anti-semtism when Corbyn was leader of labor, you defended him and Labor from those accusations.  Hell, you even denied Corbyn called Hamas and Hezbollah "Friends" till I linked a video of it.  Really, you only broke with Corbyn when you found out that fighting Western Imperialism including letting Russian tanks roll over Europe.

You're the one openly aligning with fascists here.
And no. I've never been a fan of Corbyn. He was not my selection for leader.
I do however support criticising him on his own (de)merits rather than making shit up and spinning things out of context.
This friends of Hamas thing for instance is such bollocks.  He was opening a meeting to naiively discuss peace.

You claimed that Corbyn never said that.  It was a lie.  He did say it, you are now claiming it was out of context.  The guy put a wreath on the grave of the participants of the Munich Massacre.  That wasn't a naive discussion of peace.

The anti-Israel people are allied with HAMAS they march down the streets praising them.  Hamas is a fascist group.  More so than MAGA.

I agree there are parts of the Western Left that look the other way in the cases of Nationalism and outright racism among minorities.  It's not a good thing and really fits unevenly with leftist belief.  It's why leftists looked the other way when the Algerians murdered like 80,000 people and then restricted citizenship to Muslims or flat out denied that the Khymer Rouge was committing genocide.  Often it's just Red-Brownism, like in left-wing alliances with Islamist militants in the Middle East.