Israel-Hamas War 2023

[grumbler]

Hmm. I think you forgot what I was responding to.  I didn't take issue with your criticism of referring to the Allied bombing campaign as terror bombing.  I actually agree with you on that point.  (I also agree as applied to the current Israeli operations).  Thus, it would not advance my case one bit of there were references to terror or terrorism in those texts.

What I responding to was your broader argument that: (1) "no one in a position of authority believed by 1941 that a population's will could be broken by bombing," (2) that the British "dehousing" effort was based on the "presumption that ill-housed workers were less efficient workers," and (3) that "the population was in bomb shelters and so not being killed/terrified, merely inconvenienced"

(1) is literally true as stated but a more nuanced analysis would concede that plenty of people in authority in 1941 not only believed that bombing could be used to degrade civilian morale, but that the UK command directed that reducing the morale of the enemy civilian population should be the "primary object" of the bombing effort. (2) is incomplete because the bombing campaign was premised on more than just a conclusion about the efficiency impact of poor housing but also broader impacts of civilian demoralization, and (3) is very much overstated as many civilians were far more than inconvenienced by Allied bombing - hundreds of thousands of civilians died and many more were badly injured.  The campaign failed to dent production not because the German population was all able to ride the bombs safely out in shelters but because lack of sufficient workers did not end up being a key bottleneck in the German production efforts, especially given that (as you point out above) the Nazis were quite vigorous in exploiting slave labor from occupied countries.

So on (1), you agree with me but disagreed with me? I think that maybe you did not understand my argument, as I did not understand yours. The prewar dominant air warfare theories included the idea that "the bomber will always get through" and that "strategic bombing will break the will of the people."  In (1) I am arguing that those theories had been decisively disproven by the time the British committed themselves to strategic bombing as their primary tool for defeating Germany.  Reducing enemy moral is an objective in all types of warfare, including what we now call psyops and is a different goal than "breaking the will of the enemy to resist."

For (2) and (3) we can agree to disagree.  I think that strategic bombing did have a significant negative impact on German production, both through forcing dislocation/dispersing of factories, and reducing German output per worker (some of which was caused by the increased use of inefficient slave labor, but not all:  the effect was seen in Japan as well, and the Japanese didn't use slave labor in manufacturing).

I've enjoyed our little discussion but think that we should allow the thread to go back to the original topic.

[dane]

I think the main success of the CBO is that, at a time when the western allies were unprepared to deploy significant land forces, it forced Germany to defend its industrial heartland by deploying an increasing portion of its air power away from  active land campaigns, while also continuously degrading the Luftwaffe's human and material resources. Of course, the disruption to German industry was also significant, if not as decisive as the destruction of the Luftwaffe.

Another note that I think has been missed in this discussion is that prior to 1944, the western allies lacked the tactics and technologies to adequately protect bombers during daylight precision bombing missions. The Americans reacted by continuing with costly daylight bombing raids.

The British, with far fewer resources to waste, opted for safer night raids, which limited the ability of their bombers to hit targets with anything approaching precision. The idea of targeting enemy "morale" -      evolved from the necessity of giving bombers targets large enough that they could actually hit them at night.

[OttoVonBismarck]

therefore atrocities are now fine

This got lost in the back and forth--but to be clear there is no largescale atrocities being committed by the IDF. By all evidence we have they appear to be following the laws of war at a systemic level.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Just a reminder there can never be a peace between Muslims and Jews (or Muslims and Christians, for that matter), save when the Christians / Jews are subjugated to Muslim rule. This is why no real peace can ever be between the West and Islam--the only solutions are:
1. Secularization for Muslim countries
2. Muslim autocrats willing to put international relations above their people's natural desire for bloodshed with all other humans [these first two options essentially suppress the innate bellicosity of Muslims to government rule that is not explicitly Muslim]
3. Failing those two options some form of hostility.

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-806629

The West fails to understand the enduring roots of antisemitism in Islam - opinion
Unfortunately, media biases, including detestable attempts at equivalency, exacerbate this millennia-old hatred.

By MICHAEL J. SALAMON
JUNE 18, 2024 03:58
Updated: JUNE 18, 2024 09:22

Dr. Andrew Bostom, a retired professor of medicine at Brown University and a renowned critic of Islam, has published several works tracing the historical roots of antisemitism within Islam. According to Bostom, the antisemitism we are witnessing today is not a novel phenomenon and did not begin with the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948.

Historical records reveal that when the esteemed polymath and writer Abu Uthman Amr ibn Bahr al-Kinani al-Basri, known as al-Jahiz, died in 869, he left behind works that explored the political and religious undercurrents of his era. Al-Jahiz was commissioned by the bigoted Caliph al-Mutawakkil, notorious for his suppression of the brutal  Mutazilite movement and his return to a more traditional, revelation-based Islam to compose an anti-Christian invective, motivated by the perceived threat from neighboring Christian territories.

While al-Mutawakkil himself did not perceive Jews as a threat, he noted that the Muslim masses harbored more animosity toward Jews than Christians.

In his work, al-Jahiz examined the reasons for this. He referenced Quranic verse 5:82, Muhammad's interactions with the Jews of Medina, and the anti-Jewish themes in the Sira – the early biographies of Mohammed. Al-Jahiz considered verse 5:81, which suggests that Jews harbor the greatest hatred for Muslims, as a significant anti-Jewish motif. His contemporary, al-Muhasibi, who died in 857, corroborated this view, attributing this resentment to the Jews' rejection of Mohammed's religious message.

A review of other Quranic statements regarding Jews suggests that the primary antisemitic motif is found in verse 2:61 of the Quran and reiterated in verse 3:112. Both verses accuse Jews of killing prophets and defying Allah's will, resulting in eternal condemnation. Verse 2:61 states that "shame and misery" are "stamped upon them." This condemnation is reinforced by verses such as 5:60, describing Jews' transformation into apes and pigs, and verse 5:64, which accuses Jews of spreading war and corruption – a profound lie echoed in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Palestinian Authority head Mahmoud Abbas cited this verse in a 2007 speech against Israeli Jews, illustrating the enduring power of Quranic statements.

The impact of historicity on collective consciousness
Historicity can be deeply ingrained in a people's collective consciousness. Fears of threats from racial or religious groups often originate from territorial claims, individual biases, imagined rejections, or even delusional beliefs. While most scholars agree that the earliest roots of antisemitism are found in Catholic doctrine, there is also a long history of hatred toward Jews in the Islamic world, likely for similar reasons.

This explains the Iranian Shia belief. With its desire for an international caliphate is its highest goal, the Jews must be eliminated, converted, or become dhimmi (second-class citizens), and after the Jews, Christians will face the same fate. It appears that the Sunni belief in a caliphate is less aggressive and based more on a consensual approach to change.

It is therefore no surprise that Hamas chief Yahya Sinwar, an Iranian proxy leader recently stated in correspondence with other Hamas leaders that the more Palestinians die, the greater Hamas' ability to outlast Israel. Sinwar and his followers believe that they are waging a permissible terror campaign, justified by their view that their death cult is engaged in a religiously sanctioned battle, regardless of the casualties.

Similarly, condemning Israel for death rates that cannot be confirmed and Hamas's use of civilians to hide behind and use for propaganda, as well as the very real possibility that United Nations workers are Hamas operatives are clear injunctions against those who support a ceasefire that Hamas continues to reject.

Unfortunately, media biases, including detestable attempts at equivalency, exacerbate this millennia-old hatred. Media is used by Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and even university professors funded by Qatar to spread this hatred.

Antisemitism is reflexively justified when leading media sources accept the death and injury claims of Hamas without verification or by falsely depicting the rescue of hostages as a hostage "release," among other distortions. Similarly, social media is used by bots and Islamic fundamentalists to spread further hatred.

As some have noted, we are experiencing a level of antisemitism reminiscent of 1938, and the hatred is growing.

What Western countries cannot understand are the enduring roots of antisemitism within Islam, reinforced by historical, religious, and media narratives and inspired and perpetuated by the death cult that is the Islamic Republic of Iran and its proxies that pose a significant challenge to peace and coexistence in our time – and work on heightening antisemitism worldwide.

The writer, a PhD, is a fellow of the American Psychological Association and an APA Presidential Citation awardee recognized for his work in trauma, abuse, and resiliency. He is the director of ADC Psychological Services in Netanya and Hewlett, NY, and is on staff at Northwell, New Hyde Park, NY.

[crazy canuck]

This seems an appropriate time to remind the readers of this thread that there is evidence of war crimes being committed by Israel.


From the public statement of the ICC prosecutor:

On the basis of evidence collected and examined by my Office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that Benjamin NETANYAHU, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav GALLANT, the Minister of Defence of Israel, bear criminal responsibility for  the following war crimes and crimes against humanity committed on the territory of the State of Palestine (in the Gaza strip) from at least 8 October 2023:

Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(b)(xxv) of the Statute;
Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health contrary to article 8(2)(a)(iii), or cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Wilful killing contrary to article 8(2)(a)(i), or Murder as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population as a war crime contrary to articles 8(2)(b)(i), or 8(2)(e)(i);
Extermination and/or murder contrary to articles 7(1)(b) and 7(1)(a), including in the context of deaths caused by starvation, as a crime against humanity;
Persecution as a crime against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(h);
Other inhumane acts as crimes against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(k).
My Office submits that the war crimes alleged in these applications were committed in the context of an international armed conflict between Israel and Palestine, and a non-international armed conflict between Israel and Hamas (together with other Palestinian Armed Groups) running in parallel. We submit that the crimes against humanity charged were committed as part of a widespread and systematic attack against the Palestinian civilian population pursuant to State policy. These crimes, in our assessment, continue to this day.

My Office submits that the evidence we have collected, including interviews with survivors and eyewitnesses, authenticated video, photo and audio material, satellite imagery and statements from the alleged perpetrator group, shows that Israel has intentionally and systematically deprived the civilian population in all parts of Gaza of objects indispensable to human survival.

This occurred through the imposition of a total siege over Gaza that involved completely closing the three border crossing points, Rafah, Kerem Shalom and Erez, from 8 October 2023 for extended periods and then by arbitrarily restricting the transfer of essential supplies – including food and medicine – through the border crossings after they were reopened. The siege also included cutting off cross-border water pipelines from Israel to Gaza – Gazans' principal source of clean water – for a prolonged period beginning 9 October 2023, and cutting off and hindering electricity supplies from at least 8 October 2023 until today. This took place alongside other attacks on civilians, including those queuing for food; obstruction of aid delivery by humanitarian agencies; and attacks on and killing of aid workers, which forced many agencies to cease or limit their operations in Gaza.

My Office submits that these acts were committed as part of a common plan to use starvation as a method of war and other acts of violence against the Gazan civilian population as a means to (i) eliminate Hamas; (ii) secure the return of the hostages which Hamas has abducted, and (iii) collectively punish the civilian population of Gaza, whom they perceived as a threat to Israel.

The effects of the use of starvation as a method of warfare, together with other attacks and collective punishment against the civilian population of Gaza are acute, visible and widely known, and have been confirmed by multiple witnesses interviewed by my Office, including local and international medical doctors. They include malnutrition, dehydration, profound suffering and an increasing number of deaths among the Palestinian population, including babies, other children, and women.

Famine is present in some areas of Gaza and is imminent in other areas. As UN Secretary-General António Guterres warned more than two months ago, "1.1 million people in Gaza are facing catastrophic hunger – the highest number of people ever recorded – anywhere, anytime" as a result of an "entirely manmade disaster". Today, my Office seeks to charge two of those most responsible, NETANYAHU and GALLANT, both as co-perpetrators and as superiors pursuant to Articles 25 and 28 of the Rome Statute.

Israel, like all States, has a right to take action to defend its population. That right, however, does not absolve Israel or any State of its obligation to comply with international humanitarian law. Notwithstanding any military goals they may have, the means Israel chose to achieve them in Gaza – namely, intentionally causing death, starvation, great suffering, and serious injury to body or health of the civilian population – are criminal.

[Razgovory]

I guess this is appropriate as well
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-806739

Columbia University Professors Awi Federgruen and Ran Kivetz have analyzed available data and conducted research whose "findings demonstrate that sufficient amounts of food are being supplied into Gaza," they noted in a summary of their findings presented to The Jerusalem Post.

They note that it is "a myth that Israel is responsible for famine in Gaza." They argue that the International Criminal Court and UN have joined Hamas in blaming Israel for a "famine that never was, hoping to stop the war [in Gaza]."

The two professors spoke to the Post in early June and they provided an abstract and details about their findings regarding the issue of famine in Gaza. Professor Awi Federgruen is the Chair of Columbia University Business School's Decision, Risk and Operations Division.  He is an expert in supply chains, logistics, and data science. Ran Kivetz is the Philip H. Geier Professor at Columbia University Business School. He is an expert in decision-making, including the intersection between behavioral economics and political science.

he two experts noted that the ICC has sought arrest warrants for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, on the grounds that Israel is "causing starvation as a method of war including the denial of humanitarian relief supplies [and] deliberately targeting civilians in conflict."

The two professors examined the "hard data, available from such sources as COGAT and the UN" and note that sufficient amounts of food are being supplied into Gaza. According to their research they "demonstrate that 250 truckloads suffice to feed the entire Gazan population, in accordance with a normal diet in North America."

Hamas fired rockets at the Kerem Shalom crossing on May 5, killing five soldiers, which briefly shut down the border. However the supplies have resumed and "Israel intends to increase it to the 400-500 trucks per day level. Furthermore, Israel regularly halts offensives for 4 hours a day to facilitate these deliveries."

"Nevertheless, food is not consistently distributed inside Gaza," they note and point to reports that suggest that food aid is sabotaged and stolen by Hamas. They argue that "the ICC, the UN, and the international community should blame Hamas," which started the war by mass slaughter, rape and kidnapping.

Misinformation on Gaza
THE EXPERTS ARGUE that mainstream media organizations have distorted information from Gaza, framing Israel. "In fact, the mainstream media keep vacillating between (false) allegations that Israel is causing famine, is perpetrating genocide, and is sabotaging hostage deals with Hamas. Such a defamatory narrative is intended to end the Israel-Hamas war at all costs, including a Hamas victory, a bleak future for Gazans and Israel, and an endless cruel captivity for the hostages and their families.  The false famine narrative has also been exploited by the ICC, ICJ, and UN to support their unjustified rulings and actions against Israel."

Federgruen and Kivetz maintain that claims relating to famine in Gaza can be traced to problematic reports. For instance, "in March 2024 an organization called the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC), an arm of the UN, issued a report predicting the advent of a major famine in Gaza provoked by Israel. That IPC report was cited by OXFAM, which accused Israel of 'making deliberate choices to starve civilians' and claimed (without any substantiation) that a group of North Gazans were subsisting on as little as 245 calories per day."

The two say they followed the data closely since the beginning of the war. "The hard data on food supplies are not difficult to obtain. Our analysis is based on data from COGAT, as well as reports and data from the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) report... a totally different picture from what the ICC and UN are trying to paint, and directly refute the baseless claims that Israel is causing a famine or using starvation as a method of war." COGAT is the IDF coordination unit that is responsible for dealing with aid entering Gaza. It also publishes information on the amount of aid entering.

Rafah crossing closure
Aid that enters Gaza through Israel, especially after Egypt closed the Rafah crossing on May 8 "is in Israel's hands because Israel is the major force that controls what comes into Gaza.  Once the food enters Gaza, however, the supply chain is no longer under Israel's control, as the food is taken over by NGOs, the UN, and interventions by Hamas," the academics note.

They note that their calculation of sufficient food entering Gaza is based on each truckload carrying 20 tons of food. This means that 250 truckloads provide five million kilograms, about 2.25 kg. per person in Gaza. "This is almost identical to the 2.36 kg. of food per day that the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization estimates the average individual consumes in North America."

Each Gazan provided 3,374 Kcal per day
The professors note that "our findings have been recently independently corroborated by a working paper written by researchers from Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, University of Haifa, Ben-Gurion University, Shaare Zedek Medical Center, and The Israeli Health Ministry. The conclusion of that paper is that every Gazan was provided 3,374 Kcal a day, while only 2,100K cal is needed."

While enough aid is entering Gaza, they note that it may not always be distributed to people due to other factors, such as war and Hamas control. "We can say with a high degree of professional confidence that if there was a famine somewhere in Gaza, it is not instigated by Israel. To the contrary, Israel is engaged in a variety of efforts to ensure that sufficient food enters Gaza through land crossings," they assert.

Their data examination joins a growing body of evidence against claims of Gaza famine. However, Israel will continue to be blamed for what is occurring in Gaza, even if Israel is not to blame for the failed distribution of food. Hamas not only appears to hijack aid trucks but benefits from pushing the famine narrative by leveraging these claims to pressure Israel to stop the fighting.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'll take this time to remind the thread that HamasCanuck has simply reposted allegations by a Muslim prosecutor who hates Jews and Israel. This is not any kind of real evidence.

[barkdreg]

I'll take this time to remind the thread that HamasCanuck has simply reposted allegations by a Muslim prosecutor who hates Jews and Israel. This is not any kind of real evidence.

Scholars named Awi Federgruen and Ran Kivetz supported by institutions called Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, University of Haifa, Ben-Gurion University, Shaare Zedek Medical Center, and The Israeli Health Ministry claiming Israel is not to blame and Gazans themselves are at fault for the famine might also not be the most neutral of sources.

[Josquius]

I'll take this time to remind the thread that HamasCanuck has simply reposted allegations by a Muslim prosecutor who hates Jews and Israel. This is not any kind of real evidence.

Scholars named Awi Federgruen and Ran Kivetz claiming supported by institutions called Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, University of Haifa, Ben-Gurion University, Shaare Zedek Medical Center, and The Israeli Health Ministry claiming Israel is not to blame and Gazans themselves are at fault for the famine might also not be the most neutral of sources.

No no. That's different you anti semite.

[Razgovory]

I'll take this time to remind the thread that HamasCanuck has simply reposted allegations by a Muslim prosecutor who hates Jews and Israel. This is not any kind of real evidence.

Scholars named Awi Federgruen and Ran Kivetz supported by institutions called Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, University of Haifa, Ben-Gurion University, Shaare Zedek Medical Center, and The Israeli Health Ministry claiming Israel is not to blame and Gazans themselves are at fault for the famine might also not be the most neutral of sources.

Right, right.  Can't trust the Jews.

[Josquius]

I'll take this time to remind the thread that HamasCanuck has simply reposted allegations by a Muslim prosecutor who hates Jews and Israel. This is not any kind of real evidence.

Scholars named Awi Federgruen and Ran Kivetz supported by institutions called Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, University of Haifa, Ben-Gurion University, Shaare Zedek Medical Center, and The Israeli Health Ministry claiming Israel is not to blame and Gazans themselves are at fault for the famine might also not be the most neutral of sources.

Right, right.  Can't trust the Jews.

Funny you make the same reply I joked about but for real.
You have this view yet saying this about Muslim writers? Kosher.

[Razgovory]

I'll take this time to remind the thread that HamasCanuck has simply reposted allegations by a Muslim prosecutor who hates Jews and Israel. This is not any kind of real evidence.

Scholars named Awi Federgruen and Ran Kivetz supported by institutions called Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, University of Haifa, Ben-Gurion University, Shaare Zedek Medical Center, and The Israeli Health Ministry claiming Israel is not to blame and Gazans themselves are at fault for the famine might also not be the most neutral of sources.

Right, right.  Can't trust the Jews.

Funny you make the same reply I joked about but for real.
You have this view yet saying this about Muslim writers? Kosher.

No, you mistake me for Otto.  I have not said this about Muslim writers.

[Admiral Yi]

You don't need to trust the Jews.  They've made a falsifiable claim based on publicly available data, that the total deliveries of food into Gaza are sufficient to feed the population.

The Muslim, on the other hand, has made claims about intentions, which are not falsifiable.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'll take this time to remind the thread that HamasCanuck has simply reposted allegations by a Muslim prosecutor who hates Jews and Israel. This is not any kind of real evidence.

Scholars named Awi Federgruen and Ran Kivetz supported by institutions called Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, University of Haifa, Ben-Gurion University, Shaare Zedek Medical Center, and The Israeli Health Ministry claiming Israel is not to blame and Gazans themselves are at fault for the famine might also not be the most neutral of sources.

There is quite literally no famine at all, no idea what you are talking about.

[OttoVonBismarck]

And yet another "neutral humanitarian group" that is infested with Muslim terrorists.

A Palestinian Islamic Jihad operative involved in developing the terror group's missiles was killed in an airstrike earlier today, the military says.

Fadi Jihad Muhammad al-Wadiya was targeted in a drone strike in Gaza City, the IDF says.

Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF), or Doctors Without Borders, reported this morning that al-Wadiya was one of its staffers. The organization said in a post on X that al-Wadiya was killed along with 5 other people, among them three children, while riding his bicycle to the MSF clinic where he worked.

Al-Wadiya was involved in "the development and advancement of the organization's missile array," the military says.

The IDF says he was also a "source of knowledge" within the Islamic Jihad, in the fields of electronics and chemistry.