Israel-Hamas War 2023

[The Minsky Moment]

One of the big theories I've read for why Hamas struck now is precisely in response to the brewing normalisation of Israel-Saudi relations.

Yes but the Saudis are not a democracy.  Same goes for some of the other countries normalizing like UAE and Bahrain; Morocco has a constitution and elections, but is regarded as managed democracy at best.  These are pragmatic decisions being made by ruling cliques that aren't fully answerable to public opinion.

[FunkMonk]

So what's the answer Josq?  What is the answer to fighting an enemy that fights among civilians so that those civilians will suffer casualties.  What is the answer to fighting civilians themselves will fight you and commit war crimes?

I thought this was obvious? The answer is to kill more civilians and remove them from the land.

[viper37]

You both will cheer on as long as Israel is bombing civilians.  Sorry, terrorists, since there's no such thing as a civilian.  You have both been very clear about that, they all support Hamas, they deserve what they got, there is no innocents.

We now know that Gazan civilians - including at least one physician and a journalist - are complicit in detaining and abusing Israeli hostages.  What would you recommend as an appropriate response?

Israeli civilians regularly kill Palestinians in the West Bank with the blessing of their government that does nothing.  Does that justify Hamas actions?

[Razgovory]

You both will cheer on as long as Israel is bombing civilians.  Sorry, terrorists, since there's no such thing as a civilian.  You have both been very clear about that, they all support Hamas, they deserve what they got, there is no innocents.

We now know that Gazan civilians - including at least one physician and a journalist - are complicit in detaining and abusing Israeli hostages.  What would you recommend as an appropriate response?

Israeli civilians regularly kill Palestinians in the West Bank with the blessing of their government that does nothing.  Does that justify Hamas actions?

It's odd that neither you or Josq can answer this question.

[Jacob]

Seeing reporting that both Hezbollah and Israel are expecting to go to war, it's just a matter of what triggers it (i.e. who casts what action as a provocation that requires

[crazy canuck]

You both will cheer on as long as Israel is bombing civilians.  Sorry, terrorists, since there's no such thing as a civilian.  You have both been very clear about that, they all support Hamas, they deserve what they got, there is no innocents.

We now know that Gazan civilians - including at least one physician and a journalist - are complicit in detaining and abusing Israeli hostages.  What would you recommend as an appropriate response?

The ability to say that the Israeli killing of civilians is wrong cannot be contingent on also coming up with a comprehensive plan for not killing civilians.  That is the responsibility of the Israelis.

[Josquius]

One of the big theories I've read for why Hamas struck now is precisely in response to the brewing normalisation of Israel-Saudi relations.

Yes but the Saudis are not a democracy.  Same goes for some of the other countries normalizing like UAE and Bahrain; Morocco has a constitution and elections, but is regarded as managed democracy at best.  These are pragmatic decisions being made by ruling cliques that aren't fully answerable to public opinion.

I don't understand the reply. I never said anything about Saudi being a democracy?

You both will cheer on as long as Israel is bombing civilians.  Sorry, terrorists, since there's no such thing as a civilian.  You have both been very clear about that, they all support Hamas, they deserve what they got, there is no innocents.

We now know that Gazan civilians - including at least one physician and a journalist - are complicit in detaining and abusing Israeli hostages.  What would you recommend as an appropriate response?

Israeli civilians regularly kill Palestinians in the West Bank with the blessing of their government that does nothing.  Does that justify Hamas actions?

It's odd that neither you or Josq can answer this question.

Nor can you.
Nor can many really intelligent people who have devoted decades of their life to trying to create peace in the region.
Criticism of something that clearly isn't the solution isn't reliant on having a fully working alternative.

[Admiral Yi]

If you have no solution you're merely advocating for the status quo.  At some point Israel withdraws, Hamas rebuilds, they attack again, Gaza gets invaded again.  Is that what people in the street are marching for?

[Josquius]

If you have no solution you're merely advocating for the status quo.  At some point Israel withdraws, Hamas rebuilds, they attack again, Gaza gets invaded again.  Is that what people in the street are marching for?

No. The people moaning about the marchers all being evil anti semites are the ones advocating for the status quo.
The marching folk largely want a lasting peace and two state solution, with a dose of genocidal anti-Israel nuts amongst them.
I'd be surprised if any of them know an actual workable way to get to this- though I suspect many of them won't admit it and think they do know the answer.
As I said many top people have devoted their careers to this problem. That they've thus far failed to find a solution doesn't mean the status quo is good.

[Admiral Yi]

When you said your preferred short term solution (actually I think you called it something like "the world concensus," or "the only reasonable compromise") was for the IDF to fuck off back to Israel.  Do you think that would move the parties closer to a two state solution and a permanent peace?

[Josquius]

When you said your preferred short term solution (actually I think you called it something like "the world concensus," or "the only reasonable compromise") was for the IDF to fuck off back to Israel.  Do you think that would move the parties closer to a two state solution and a permanent peace?

Its almost certainly part of the (good) solution yes.

[Admiral Yi]

Its almost certainly part of the (good) solution yes.

Is that a yes or a no?

[Josquius]

Its almost certainly part of the (good) solution yes.

Is that a yes or a no?

Is yes a yes or a no?

Do you think a continued Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands is conductive to peace?

[Admiral Yi]

My bad.  Misread.

[Razgovory]

Nor can you.
Nor can many really intelligent people who have devoted decades of their life to trying to create peace in the region.
Criticism of something that clearly isn't the solution isn't reliant on having a fully working alternative.

I'm not the one complaining about Israeli conduct.  The question wasn't about "peace in the region"  it was about how to deal with Hamas fighting among civilians and civilians fighting and committing war crimes.  You want the Israelis to do something else, but you don't know what that it is, and you are mad they aren't doing it.  That's simply irrational.