Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

You support a two-state solution, I do not. I get to vote too--and I see little evidence Trump is very committed to a two state solution. A two state solution may be the preferred solution for Foggy Bottom dwellers and the egg heads at Foreign Policy magazine, but there is little evidence blind adherence to an unworkable idea is advancing our goals in the Middle East.

I also think you are outright spewing fake news by stating Israel is going to "resettle" Gaza. I see no evidence that is likely to occur.

Propping up a failed two state solution to protect Hamas isn't just bad, it is monstrously immoral. It would be akin to arguing Iraq should be forced to accept a two state solution with ISIS being the other state back in the mid-2010s.

I am not suggesting we prop up Hamas to support a two state solution. A two state solution would involve a foreign military intervention primary to remove them from power, but even if it does not obviously having Hamas involved in a two state solution would not be a solution. That is why their election in 2006 killed all the momentum.

And Trump put forth a two state solution while he was in office, did he not?

My apologies if you took offense to my suggestion that Israel was going to resettle Gaza. I am willing to concede that perhaps they will not. If they do though, then what would that change in your view?

So what's your big moral solution that your buddy Trump is going to deliver? What is your workable idea?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Not every problem is America's to solve. However Israel wants to handle it will be fine with me.

[Valmy]

The vast majority of the residents of Gaza would meet anyone's definition of terrorist. The only exceptions in large number are very young children (say under age 12.)

Even if I were to concede this notion, that is still a pretty significant number of people.

[Valmy]

Not every problem is America's to solve.

On that we agree.

However here is my view: Whatever solution Israel comes up with, it is likely going to be very bad for our interests. And, as I said, nobody is really that interested in stopping them.

So, at the very least, we shouldn't be seen to be in collusion with it.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Hamas said to give amendments to hostage deal offer including new timeline, full withdrawal from Gaza

And here we go, Hamas "accepts, but oh yeah with these conditions that we know will be unacceptable to Israel."

And this is the group Josq and Viper are cheering on.

[Razgovory]

January 1945, Germany offers a cease fire agreement to the Allies. 

"Withdraw all your forces and cease bombing Germany and we will give you back some of your POWs, maybe.  Also we will continue shooting V2 rockets at you"

[Valmy]

January 1945, Germany offers a cease fire agreement to the Allies. 

"Withdraw all your forces and cease bombing Germany and we will give you back some of your POWs, maybe.  Also we will continue shooting V2 rockets at you"

More like in April 1945.

But in any case, Israel cannot accept. The war will continue.

[viper37]

Not every problem is America's to solve.

But you're more than willing to assist in the current Israeli solution.

[viper37]

January 1945, Germany offers a cease fire agreement to the Allies. 

"Withdraw all your forces and cease bombing Germany and we will give you back some of your POWs, maybe.  Also we will continue shooting V2 rockets at you"

Hamas said to give amendments to hostage deal offer including new timeline, full withdrawal from Gaza

And here we go, Hamas "accepts, but oh yeah with these conditions that we know will be unacceptable to Israel."

And this is the group Josq and Viper are cheering on.

You both will cheer on as long as Israel is bombing civilians.  Sorry, terrorists, since there's no such thing as a civilian.  You have both been very clear about that, they all support Hamas, they deserve what they got, there is no innocents.

Foreign aid workers are fair game too, apparently.

There will be no surrender

[Razgovory]

No, Hamas will not surrender.  The Nazis surrendered when the fight was hopeless, to save lives.  We can't expect even that level of basic decency from Hamas.  As Sinwar said, civilian casualties are necessary.

[Josquius]

Hamas said to give amendments to hostage deal offer including new timeline, full withdrawal from Gaza

And here we go, Hamas "accepts, but oh yeah with these conditions that we know will be unacceptable to Israel."

And this is the group Josq and Viper are cheering on.

Seriously?
86 pages later, though admittedly I've just dipped in and out, of us saying Hamas are horrid and we don't support them.... But still you're insisting on this straw man?
Amazing how adults can get stuck in such black and white views of the world.

Hamas has something Israel wants. Of course they're going to try and negotiate. Don't confuse evil with stupid.
Given the dispersed nature of the various groups in Gaza it's probable Hamas has to get something for a peace to take.

[Valmy]

The Nazis surrendered when the fight was hopeless, to save lives.

Are you under the impression World War II ended in 1943 or something?

But as I said long ago if I were leading the Palestinians I would have surrendered completely once the Soviet Union's falling meant there was unlikely to be anymore realistic chance for victory. And I supposed, they kind of tried that, but I would have gone farther.

And I probably would have been assassinated. Me and Yitzhak Rabin.

As Sinwar said, civilian casualties are necessary.

Martyrs for the Palestinian Nation.

[Admiral Yi]

Seriously?
86 pages later, though admittedly I've just dipped in and out, of us saying Hamas are horrid and we don't support them.... But still you're insisting on this straw man?
Amazing how adults can get stuck in such black and white views of the world.

Hamas has something Israel wants. Of course they're going to try and negotiate. Don't confuse evil with stupid.
Given the dispersed nature of the various groups in Gaza it's probable Hamas has to get something for a peace to take.

A while back you said your idea of a wonderful compromise would be for the IDF to fuck off back to Israel, presumably leaving the hostages in Gaza. As I said at the time, that's exactly what Hamas has been asking for.

But it's OK because they're horrid and you don't support them.

[Solmyr]

I also think you are outright spewing fake news by stating Israel is going to "resettle" Gaza. I see no evidence that is likely to occur.

You mean, evidence like members of the Israeli government saying that they should occupy and take over Gaza?

[Josquius]

Seriously?
86 pages later, though admittedly I've just dipped in and out, of us saying Hamas are horrid and we don't support them.... But still you're insisting on this straw man?
Amazing how adults can get stuck in such black and white views of the world.

Hamas has something Israel wants. Of course they're going to try and negotiate. Don't confuse evil with stupid.
Given the dispersed nature of the various groups in Gaza it's probable Hamas has to get something for a peace to take.

A while back you said your idea of a wonderful compromise would be for the IDF to fuck off back to Israel, presumably leaving the hostages in Gaza. As I said at the time, that's exactly what Hamas has been asking for.

But it's OK because they're horrid and you don't support them.

No?