Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Admiral Yi]

He brought it up in reply to viper scoffing at ottos all civilians are terrorists view.
As if 2 who tick that box prove all of them do.

It's the "as if" part I'm having trouble with.

[Josquius]

So what's the answer Josq?  What is the answer to fighting an enemy that fights among civilians so that those civilians will suffer casualties.  What is the answer to fighting civilians themselves will fight you and commit war crimes?

I've mentioned many times over the thread what I'd like to see done different.
On the other hand, whats your answer?
Israel fanatics are remarkably schtum when it comes to possible solutions.

[Admiral Yi]

There's really only one reasonable compromise.  Hamas fights it out, Israel demands total surrender, they run the joint for three years.  Three years to brainwash Gazans for peace.  Then it's the UN's turn if they fail.

[Razgovory]

So what's the answer Josq?  What is the answer to fighting an enemy that fights among civilians so that those civilians will suffer casualties.  What is the answer to fighting civilians themselves will fight you and commit war crimes?

I've mentioned many times over the thread what I'd like to see done different.
On the other hand, whats your answer?
Israel fanatics are remarkably schtum when it comes to possible solutions.

What you've said is that you would like "Israel to stop being dicks".  Which is not much of a policy.  You have expressed the idea of the Israelis withdrawing and leaving Hamas alone.  Not a great idea either.

My answer is that the Israelis are doing fine.  Just hurry up and take Rafah.  Smash Hamas. 

[Josquius]

So what's the answer Josq?  What is the answer to fighting an enemy that fights among civilians so that those civilians will suffer casualties.  What is the answer to fighting civilians themselves will fight you and commit war crimes?

I've mentioned many times over the thread what I'd like to see done different.
On the other hand, whats your answer?
Israel fanatics are remarkably schtum when it comes to possible solutions.

What you've said is that you would like "Israel to stop being dicks".  Which is not much of a policy.  You have expressed the idea of the Israelis withdrawing and leaving Hamas alone.  Not a great idea either.

My answer is that the Israelis are doing fine.  Just hurry up and take Rafah.  Smash Hamas.

I've said a lot more than that (that isn't even accurate to what I've said). Interesting thats your take away. I guess thats your level of thinking on the topic as shown by your solution.

[Razgovory]

Oh, so why don't you set the record straight.

[Barrister]

So what's the answer Josq?  What is the answer to fighting an enemy that fights among civilians so that those civilians will suffer casualties.  What is the answer to fighting civilians themselves will fight you and commit war crimes?

I've mentioned many times over the thread what I'd like to see done different.
On the other hand, whats your answer?
Israel fanatics are remarkably schtum when it comes to possible solutions.

Don't make perfect the enemy of the good.

I'm not quite sure what Israel should be doing differently.  It does seem kind of awful, with no really great solutions.  I would like Israel to be a bit more clear on an "end goal" for Gaza.

But that doesn't mean they should do nothing and just pull out.

[Razgovory]

I have an interesting solution.  Total Israeli, withdrawal from Gaza followed by recognized Palestinian state.  Or Two.  Whatever ever.  But there is a catch: Israel joins NATO.  So the next time Hamas does attacking Israel, and they will, Europe can send troops to deal with it.  I'm sure the British army can go into Gaza and clear out Hamas without being dicks about it.  Show everyone how it's done like they did in Basra.  Ireland is not in NATO, but I think they should come along as well.  If they want peace, by God, they can bleed for it for a change.

[crazy canuck]

I would like Israel to be a bit more clear on an "end goal" for Gaza.

I have hesitated to participate in this thread, but I see a number of people now making posts less attacky and worth reading and responding to.


BB, I think that is the central problem.  I am not sure with the Israeli government does not say what it is and perhaps they don't have one or it is too difficult to formulate one at the moment.  But they would do themselves a lot of favours if they were more transparent about their objective beyond the destruction of Hamas.

[Threviel]

I haven't seen anyone suggest anything like a serious thought through idea for how Israel could possibly act to ensure future peace.

I mean, yeah, they could stop killing civilians and that's nice and all, but how can they turn the hearts and minds of their enemies? Are there any good serious ideas out there for what positive acts Israel could possibly do?

[Josquius]

So what's the answer Josq?  What is the answer to fighting an enemy that fights among civilians so that those civilians will suffer casualties.  What is the answer to fighting civilians themselves will fight you and commit war crimes?

I've mentioned many times over the thread what I'd like to see done different.
On the other hand, whats your answer?
Israel fanatics are remarkably schtum when it comes to possible solutions.

Don't make perfect the enemy of the good.

I'm not quite sure what Israel should be doing differently.  It does seem kind of awful, with no really great solutions.  I would like Israel to be a bit more clear on an "end goal" for Gaza.

But that doesn't mean they should do nothing and just pull out.

Its interesting people keep implying that I think its a simple matter and Israel should just randomly decide to pull out then everything is solved.
This is precisely the attitude of  Raz et al that I disagree with, the only difference being that they think its not time yet, a few more bombs are needed first.
Its the standard Israeli loop of mowing the lawn; going in and blowing up a bunch of people and stuff, declaring mission accomplished then going home, leaving a bunch of very angry young men ready to sign up to attack Israel and keep the cycle going.

As I've said the only two options to stop the cycle, ignoring morals and international relations, are to make sure the job is 'perfect' and the Gazans are completely removed, or an actual lasting peace.

The former. Yeah. No. A bad idea for every reason under the sun. Even if you're an Islamophobic jingoistic zionist nutter thats just logically not a sensible course of action for Israel in the real world. You think the world doesn't like them now? Just see how much shit they'd be in then.

The latter is easier said than done. Many of the world's brightest political minds, folk who have dedicated their career to understanding the area, have tried to come up with solutions for Israel-Palestine so I'm not even going to pretend to know the answer.
But I will say one thing for sure: The current Israeli approach that so many are cheerleading for is just the same old thing and won't help matters at all.
Israel needs to allow the Palestinians a genuine decent alternative to Hamas and the like; up to now the Israeli policy has been one of encouraging Hamas as this helped keep the Palestinians divided and weak.

A full solution is out of the reach of anyone here. But elements of this are that Israel needs to dismantle its settlements, actually apply a policy of equal rights for Arabs (citizens and otherwise), and work towards an adequate system of compensation for past misdeeds.
Once extremism has taken hold undoing it is a difficult task, but I'd imagine the engagement of the Arab world will be needed with this. They've been reluctant to get too involved. No idea how to change things there.

[Threviel]

Good points. One comment is that if the Israelis let the Palestines choose their own government they'll most likely end up with Hamas or a Hamas-clone, since at the very least there's a very sizeable plurality supporting that kind of government.

Which leads back to the seeming fact that no matter what Israel does in isolation there'll be war with the Palestinians. The Arab world need to step up in order for peace to break out. How to get them to do that is seemingly hard since the Arab world is hell bent on killing Jews.

Quite the conundrum.

[Josquius]

Good points. One comment is that if the Israelis let the Palestines choose their own government they'll most likely end up with Hamas or a Hamas-clone, since at the very least there's a very sizeable plurality supporting that kind of government.

Which leads back to the seeming fact that no matter what Israel does in isolation there'll be war with the Palestinians. The Arab world need to step up in order for peace to break out. How to get them to do that is seemingly hard since the Arab world is hell bent on killing Jews.

Quite the conundrum.

I'd say a bit of a problem lies in quite the opposite. The Arab world (its leadership anyway) absolutely isn't hell bent on killing Jews at all. They're all steadily making peace with Israel and are content to leave the Palestinians to their fate.
One of the big theories I've read for why Hamas struck now is precisely in response to the brewing normalisation of Israel-Saudi relations.

Definitely true if we have a Palestinian election tomorrow Hamas would win.
Also a problem is on the Israeli side too there's way too many who want to see Palestine completely annexed and the way their system is setup this group holds a lot of power.
It really needs to be a gradual process of building trust (currently at zero between the Israelis and Palestinians) that the other side actually wants peace. Both sides need leaders that have credibility on the the kill the others side of things but are willing to really push the boundaries of what this means for the better. Which is a very hard thing to expect, especially when you can't just install the leaders yourself.

A big gain could be in really investing into the West Bank and showing how great life can be if the Palestinians pursue peace. But then there's a lot of parts of the world that could really do with this sort of investment and again much easier said than done.

[Threviel]

Yeah, lots of fluffy nice sounding words, but very little hard suggestions with numbers backing them...

I don't have an inkling as to anything resembling a good solution either.

[Razgovory]

So what's the answer Josq?  What is the answer to fighting an enemy that fights among civilians so that those civilians will suffer casualties.  What is the answer to fighting civilians themselves will fight you and commit war crimes?

I've mentioned many times over the thread what I'd like to see done different.
On the other hand, whats your answer?
Israel fanatics are remarkably schtum when it comes to possible solutions.

Don't make perfect the enemy of the good.

I'm not quite sure what Israel should be doing differently.  It does seem kind of awful, with no really great solutions.  I would like Israel to be a bit more clear on an "end goal" for Gaza.

But that doesn't mean they should do nothing and just pull out.

Its interesting people keep implying that I think its a simple matter and Israel should just randomly decide to pull out then everything is solved.
This is precisely the attitude of  Raz et al that I disagree with, the only difference being that they think its not time yet, a few more bombs are needed first.
Its the standard Israeli loop of mowing the lawn; going in and blowing up a bunch of people and stuff, declaring mission accomplished then going home, leaving a bunch of very angry young men ready to sign up to attack Israel and keep the cycle going.

As I've said the only two options to stop the cycle, ignoring morals and international relations, are to make sure the job is 'perfect' and the Gazans are completely removed, or an actual lasting peace.

The former. Yeah. No. A bad idea for every reason under the sun. Even if you're an Islamophobic jingoistic zionist nutter thats just logically not a sensible course of action for Israel in the real world. You think the world doesn't like them now? Just see how much shit they'd be in then.

The latter is easier said than done. Many of the world's brightest political minds, folk who have dedicated their career to understanding the area, have tried to come up with solutions for Israel-Palestine so I'm not even going to pretend to know the answer.
But I will say one thing for sure: The current Israeli approach that so many are cheerleading for is just the same old thing and won't help matters at all.
Israel needs to allow the Palestinians a genuine decent alternative to Hamas and the like; up to now the Israeli policy has been one of encouraging Hamas as this helped keep the Palestinians divided and weak.

A full solution is out of the reach of anyone here. But elements of this are that Israel needs to dismantle its settlements, actually apply a policy of equal rights for Arabs (citizens and otherwise), and work towards an adequate system of compensation for past misdeeds.
Once extremism has taken hold undoing it is a difficult task, but I'd imagine the engagement of the Arab world will be needed with this. They've been reluctant to get too involved. No idea how to change things there.

Ignoring the fact you constantly attack me her no particular reason, you were asked how to deal with Hamas fighting among civilians and civilians fighting and committing war crimes.