Israel-Hamas War 2023

[The Minsky Moment]

You both will cheer on as long as Israel is bombing civilians.  Sorry, terrorists, since there's no such thing as a civilian.  You have both been very clear about that, they all support Hamas, they deserve what they got, there is no innocents.

We now know that Gazan civilians - including at least one physician and a journalist - are complicit in detaining and abusing Israeli hostages.  What would you recommend as an appropriate response?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Biden admin being embarrassed by their attempts to break bread with Hamas:

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken criticizes Hamas's response to Israel's hostage deal proposal, saying it included some changes that are not workable.

"Hamas has proposed numerous changes to the proposal that was on the table... Some of the changes are workable, some are not," Blinken says in a press conference with Qatari Prime Minister Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani in Doha.

"A deal was on the table that was virtually identical to the proposal that Hamas made on May 6 — a deal that the entire world is behind, a deal Israel has accepted."

"Hamas could have answered with a single word. 'Yes.' Instead, Hamas waited nearly two weeks and then proposed more changes, a number of which go beyond positions that had previously taken and accepted," Blinken says.

"As a result, the war — [which] Hamas started on October 7 with its barbaric attack on Israel and on Israeli civilians — will go on. More people will suffer, more Palestinians will suffer, more Israelis will suffer."

"But in the days ahead, we are going to continue to push on an urgent basis with our partners, with Qatar with Egypt, to try to close this deal. Because we know it's in the interests of Israelis, Palestinians, the region, indeed, the entire world," he adds.

"At some point in a negotiation — and this has gone back and forth for a long time — you get to a point where if one side continues to change its demands, including making demands and insisting on changes on things that they had already accepted, you have to question whether they're proceeding in good faith or not," Blinken says.

"We're determined to try to bridge the gaps, and I believe those gaps are bridgeable. That doesn't mean they will be bridged," he adds.

"It's time for the haggling to stop and a ceasefire to start."

"It may be that Hamas continues to say 'no.' [Then] I think it will be clear to everyone around the world, that it's on them and that they will have made a choice to continue a war that they started," Blinken says.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I also think you are outright spewing fake news by stating Israel is going to "resettle" Gaza. I see no evidence that is likely to occur.

You mean, evidence like members of the Israeli government saying that they should occupy and take over Gaza?

Learn some fucking English. Occupation != settlement, idiot.

[grumbler]

Biden admin being embarrassed by their attempts to break bread with Hamas:

(snip)

Actually, it sounds like just the opposite.  The Biden administration is doing a far superior job to the one the Israelis are fumbling in painting Hamas into a corner and revealing their negotiating tactics as a mere ploy. 

Israel desperately needs someone like Biden to hide the fact that Israel doesn't want peace by pinning the blame on Hamas.  Israel has no credibility in that sphere; their government is universally (and rightly, IMO) loathed.

[The Minsky Moment]

I agree it looks like a tag team effort.  Blinken is doing the unrewarding but necessary work of exposing the lack of a viable negotiating path with Hamas.

Otto you should reconsider your handle.  Your namesake understood the value of such maneuvers.

[Valmy]

Sure, sure but that is pursuing US interests, not slavering devotion to our higher moral duty to sacrifice everything else in the service of Israel (no matter how stupid and counter-productive Israel's policies are). Even symbolic and diplomatic efforts to achieve goals favorable to our interests are evidence of failure. Therefore a moral failing according to Otto.

[grumbler]

Sure, sure but that is pursuing US interests, not slavering devotion to our higher moral duty to sacrifice everything else in the service of Israel (no matter how stupid and counter-productive Israel's policies are). Even symbolic and diplomatic efforts to achieve goals favorable to our interests are evidence of failure. Therefore a moral failing according to Otto.

Like most MAGAts, he lives every country but this one and every century but this one.  I'm hoping he tells us what the MAGAt protocol is re: flags.  Israel's flags above the Confederate Battle Flag, or below.

[Josquius]

You both will cheer on as long as Israel is bombing civilians.  Sorry, terrorists, since there's no such thing as a civilian.  You have both been very clear about that, they all support Hamas, they deserve what they got, there is no innocents.

We now know that Gazan civilians - including at least one physician and a journalist - are complicit in detaining and abusing Israeli hostages.  What would you recommend as an appropriate response?

So these 2 civilians were it seems part of the kidnapping....
That means every other civilian in Gaza is th same?

[Admiral Yi]

So these 2 civilians were it seems part of the kidnapping....
That means every other civilian in Gaza is th same?

Are you familiar with the term false dichotomy?

[Jacob]

So these 2 civilians were it seems part of the kidnapping....
That means every other civilian in Gaza is th same?

No.

But it makes it much harder for the Israelis to distinguish between actual civilians and enemy combatants.

[Josquius]

A fair excuse on some occasions. But with the sheer quantity of killings we are seeing?
Those toddlers were terrorists?

So these 2 civilians were it seems part of the kidnapping....
That means every other civilian in Gaza is th same?

Are you familiar with the term false dichotomy?

Yes. That's exactly what we are dealing with here.

[The Minsky Moment]

Viper's comment was: " Sorry, terrorists, since there's no such thing as a civilian.  You have both been very clear about that, they all support Hamas, they deserve what they got, there is no innocents."

Of course there are such things as civilians. The problem is the very deliberately blurring of the line between civilians and militants by Hamas, which unfortunately has been embraced by some elements of Gazan civil society. The blurring begins with the fact that Hamas intentionally eschews such basic requirements of the law of war as identifying combatants with uniforms or other distinctive signs. To the contrary, their affirmative strategy is to blend their militants in with the civilian population, both for protection and as deliberate strategy to put the civilian population at risk and multiply civilian casualties

All this is known.  What is additional is the apparent willingness of elements of the civilian population to participate actively in this blurring of the lines. For a civilian physician to act as a hostage jailer is a gross violation of professional responsibility that puts the entire profession in Gaza at risk. Same for his journalist son. Al Jazeera recently published an "explainer" on the attack, describing it as an indiscriminate massacre based on rather sketchy evidence, but somehow neglecting to mention the civilian captors of the hostages, even though one of the captors did freelance work for Al Jazeera itself.  This is just gold for Bibi and his cronies, and their argument that Israel will be damned no matter what it does, so there is no point in being restrained.

It's easy to point fingers at the IDF and their conduct of the war; there are no shortage of examples of what appears to be excessive force. But it is a lot harder to explain exactly how the IDF should conduct their operations against a foe who operates in this way, with the active connivance of some parts of the civilian population, who of course are indistinguishable from the rest.  I'm still waiting for such an explanation from Israel's critics, that doesn't involve wishful thinking or abject surrender by Israel.

[Admiral Yi]

Yes. That's exactly what we are dealing with here.

I did some digging and Otto did in fact say in effect that all Gazans are terrorists.  If you want to rebut his claim I'll have no beef with you and in fact I'll agree with you. 

But you weren't responding to Otto.  You were responding to Joan, who pointed out that one doctor and one journalist were engaged in activities that we would call terroristic.  You created this false dichotomy.

[Josquius]

Yes. That's exactly what we are dealing with here.

I did some digging and Otto did in fact say in effect that all Gazans are terrorists.  If you want to rebut his claim I'll have no beef with you and in fact I'll agree with you. 

But you weren't responding to Otto.  You were responding to Joan, who pointed out that one doctor and one journalist were engaged in activities that we would call terroristic.  You created this false dichotomy.

He brought it up in reply to viper scoffing at ottos all civilians are terrorists view.
As if 2 who tick that box prove all of them do.

[Razgovory]

So what's the answer Josq?  What is the answer to fighting an enemy that fights among civilians so that those civilians will suffer casualties.  What is the answer to fighting civilians themselves will fight you and commit war crimes?