The Off Topic Topic

[Syt]

Based on the experience of every parent I know you can look forward to all kinds of fun illnesses they bring home and share with the family.

[Tamas]

Based on the experience of every parent I know you can look forward to all kinds of fun illnesses they bring home and share with the family.

Oh yes, actually I came down with something after visiting this nursery we have chosen, so it was a proper demo. 

[Josquius]

Just why is president Xi not called president shi?
Yeah yeah, because that's the way pinyin spelling rules go.
But why?
Seems curious they went this way. In Japanese they quite happily use shi for this sound: thought Incidentally I recently read in some official uses they use a system you'd never generally see and are only just killing this other system officially. Shibuya is Sibuya in many documents.

[Admiral Yi]

I ran this through my gibberish-to-English translator and it still came out as gibberish.

Then either you do not posses a gibberish to English translator or what I posted was not gibberish.

[Maladict]

Just why is president Xi not called president shi?
Yeah yeah, because that's the way pinyin spelling rules go.
But why?
Seems curious they went this way. In Japanese they quite happily use shi for this sound: thought Incidentally I recently read in some official uses they use a system you'd never generally see and are only just killing this other system officially. Shibuya is Sibuya in many documents.

Why wouldn't transliteration rules be different for two distinct writing systems? Going out on a limb here, but maybe X doesn't fully equate to the English sh sound?

[Tamas]

We'll start nursery very end of August. I am: anxious.

And of course stories like this make me sweat:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/20/nursery-death-of-baby-genevieve-meehan-raises-troubling-questions

[Sheilbh]

Why wouldn't transliteration rules be different for two distinct writing systems? Going out on a limb here, but maybe X doesn't fully equate to the English sh sound?

More to the point x doesn't equate to sh in Chinese. They're two distinct sounds.

That's the Pinyin but in Wades-Giles Xi would be Hsi and Shi would be Shih.

[Josquius]

Just why is president Xi not called president shi?
Yeah yeah, because that's the way pinyin spelling rules go.
But why?
Seems curious they went this way. In Japanese they quite happily use shi for this sound: thought Incidentally I recently read in some official uses they use a system you'd never generally see and are only just killing this other system officially. Shibuya is Sibuya in many documents.

Why wouldn't transliteration rules be different for two distinct writing systems? Going out on a limb here, but maybe X doesn't fully equate to the English sh sound?

It sounds like shi to me.
The Chinese apparently have another subtly different shi...
But does that really matter when writing phonetically in English?
Does it cause admin headaches to have names be different in one language but not another?
I suppose having president Xi is rather useful for them in finally teaching the world it's shi not zee.

[Sheilbh]

It sounds like shi to me.
The Chinese apparently have another subtly different shi...
But does that really matter when writing phonetically in English?
Does it cause admin headaches to have names be different in one language but not another?
I suppose having president Xi is rather useful for them in finally teaching the world it's shi not zee.

I mean it's wrong. Every phoneticism of Chinese distinguishes between sh and x/hs as different sounds. They are different.

I think it's interesting though because I think if Chinese had an alphabet based script, I don't think there'd be any argument because they'd be different letters in the alphabet that was being transliterated just because they're close. You think of k v q in Arabic. I think it says something about the way we give primacy to written text over the spoken.

(Also perhaps a distinctively English indifference to what we write having any link to what we say because, unlike most languages, there's no more than a nodding acquaintance in English )

[Maladict]

I think it's interesting though because I think if Chinese had an alphabet based script, I don't think there'd be any argument because they'd be different letters in the alphabet that was being transliterated just because they're close. You think of k v q in Arabic. I think it says something about the way we give primacy to written text over the spoken.

Certainly. Although I'm reminded of T.E. Lawrence driving his editor mad in refusing to be consistent about transliterating personal names. According to Lawrence there was no point, as no satisfactory system exists because the languages are simply too different.

I suppose if you transliterate 'London' to Arabic and then back to English you'd get Lundun or Landan.

[Sheilbh]

Some folk horror happenings going on in Hampshire:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/20/deers-head-and-upside-down-cross-found-on-centenary-stone-in-new-forest

[Jacob]

It sounds like shi to me.

Well that settles it 

The Chinese apparently have another subtly different shi...
But does that really matter when writing phonetically in English?

Pinyin is not "writing Chinese phonetically in English". Pinyin is a method for using the roman alphabet to express Mandarin Chinese (developed in China). And Mandarin Chinese distinguishes between "shi" and "xi".

For some reason the style guides of most English language publications use Pinyin* rather than inventing the own transliteration scheme. I don't know if there'll be much demand for a "Chinese to English as it sounds to the average punter" transliteration scheme, but I guess you never know...

*and before that Wade-Giles which - as Sheilbh pointed out - distinguishes betweeen the two sounds as "shih" and "hsi".

[HVC]

Funny aside, Xixi is piss in portuguese.

[Grey Fox]

How is Hsi suppose to sound?

[Sheilbh]

How is Hsi suppose to sound?

Not unlike Xi

According to what I saw it's a softer sh. Apparently try to pronounce sh but with your tongue below your lower front teeth that's x or hs.