TV/Movies Megathread

[garbon]

Gladiator is a "serious historic movie"?

[Josquius]

Gladiator is a "serious historic movie"?

It fancies itself one.

[garbon]

Gladiator is a "serious historic movie"?

It fancies itself one.

Actually I'm not even sure why I asked you that.

You can have a serious film without saying cast needs to match the race that is generally thought to best match with the historical (or fictional) character.

Of course, given historical neglect of non-white stories and non-white actors, you do see people preferentially giving non-white roles to non-white actors. I guess that is what Brain is on about though I'm not sure who he has in mind that he think would be a better name for the role.

[Tamas]

Do we know how North Africans feel about black actors portraying their famous historical figures? Shouldn't they have a say? If transgender people can complain when non-transgendered actors play transgender characters for example, then surely Egyptians/Algerians can complain if not Egyptian/Algerian actors play Egyptian/Algerian characters.

If this is a non-issue in those countries I am happy to treat it as a non-issue as well, but I remember seeing some Egyptian-heritage comedian (I think?) guy for example rallying against the Netflix Cleopatra flix, feeling like it is allowed to eradicate or at least ignore his country's heritage as collateral damage in American culture fights. Actually I think it was some interview Pierce Morgan did and there was some Black writer on there as well. My favourite moment was that at the end, the Egyptian guy, having worked himself into a bit of a fit, was saying "Black Africans did not build the pyramids" and this Black dude was going:

[The Brain]

Gladiator is a "serious historic movie"?

It fancies itself one.

Actually I'm not even sure why I asked you that.

You can have a serious film without saying cast needs to match the race that is generally thought to best match with the historical (or fictional) character.

Of course, given historical neglect of non-white stories and non-white actors, you do see people preferentially giving non-white roles to non-white actors. I guess that is what Brain is on about though I'm not sure who he has in mind that he think would be a better name for the role.

Even if you limit yourself to American actors I'm sure there's a bunch of them who look like North Africans who could do a good job. I don't know the industry well enought to name them. And judging by the numbers of foreign actors in American movies limiting yourself doesn't appear necessary. Even old Hollywood managed to cast Omar Sharif in movies, so it seems possible.

[garbon]

Do we know how North Africans feel about black actors portraying their famous historical figures? Shouldn't they have a say? If transgender people can complain when non-transgendered actors play transgender characters for example, then surely Egyptians/Algerians can complain if not Egyptian/Algerian actors play Egyptian/Algerian characters.

If this is a non-issue in those countries I am happy to treat it as a non-issue as well, but I remember seeing some Egyptian-heritage comedian (I think?) guy for example rallying against the Netflix Cleopatra flix, feeling like it is allowed to eradicate or at least ignore his country's heritage as collateral damage in American culture fights. Actually I think it was some interview Pierce Morgan did and there was some Black writer on there as well. My favourite moment was that at the end, the Egyptian guy, having worked himself into a bit of a fit, was saying "Black Africans did not build the pyramids" and this Black dude was going:

Would you have posted any of this if he had been cast as a white actor?

[Josephus]

Gladiator 2 is coming, with Denzel Washington starring in it, apparently.

Speaking of the devil, he'll play Hannibal in an Antoine Fuqua led movie.  A movie that was for a long while rumored to star Vin Diesel.  Vin Diesel might have looked the part better in hand to hand combat, fist fighting his opponents on the battlefield, but Denzel has the acting skills.  It's a toss up, really.

Link

Filming in Malta. I saw the set last summer. Speaking of which, here's a cool story:

So when Gladiator One was filming in Malta, Oliver Reed, one day, went to a little bar in Valetta and, as was his thing, decided to challenge a group of visiting English sailors to a drinking contest. A few bottles of rum and beer top offs later, he got a heart attack and died.

You can visit that bar in Valetta now. It's a little dive but has become an attraction and inside it's full of movie stills and other portraits of Mr. Reed.

[Tamas]

Would you have posted any of this if he had been cast as a white actor?

No, I wouldn't have, good point. You are right, I concede.

[Duque de Bragança]

Gladiator is a "serious historic movie"?

It fancies itself one.

Not according to the end credits, where it is stated as fiction, with some characters based on real historical characters.

cf. "Rome was founded as a Republic"

[Sheilbh]

Actually think the best criticism of the casting is age. Apparently Hannibal was about 30 when he cross the Alps and I love Denzel Washington but he's almost 70. And it also feels like those make for two different films - young, brash terror descending on Rome v older, slightly wistful/regretful, full of the pity of war.

I am HYPED about Napoleon but I feel slightly similar with it. I think Joaquin Phoenix will be great for the Emperor, but I think you need someone visibly young  for the shock of the new/spirit of the age Napoleon.

Edit: And, relatedly, Napoleon got 5 stars in the Guardian

Note, I think Bridgerton fucked up on race when it stopped being about colour blind casting and main its own in-universe explanation for how it had prominent black nobles/the Queen.

Yeah I kind of struggled with it after then because it slightly broke the illusion. I think you can have a colour blind fantasy Georgian England and that's fine - if you introduce into that world that race is a thing and there has been change over it then it doesn't work.

Said before but my general view is colour blind casting for everything, unless race is core to the subject. Different ends, but Mississippi Burning or Othello do not work if they're colour blind - race is central to the text and that means it likely needs to be present in the casting.

[garbon]

Would you have posted any of this if he had been cast as a white actor?

No, I wouldn't have, good point. You are right, I concede.

[HVC]

I don't really care about the erasure of redhead characters, I mean it probably sucks for redhead actors and sometimes I think it's dumb from a marketing and thus profitability perspective, but most are fictional so whatever.

True colourblind casting in fare like Bridgerton I similarly don't care about in either way, though I guess you guys say the ended up fucking that up.  I admit I do get somewhat annoyed by blind casting where it breaks immersion like a racially diverse remote village a la the wheel of time. This too I can overlook, it more an annoyance then deal breaking or something egregious.

But North Africans being black is a common trope, coming in part from the ongoing culture war in America. It's a bit cultural appropriation and a bit Americans being bad at geography and history. So I give it less slack than tamas does. This movie is fictional and not a documentary so isn't as bad as the last cleopatra documentary where making her black was an actual purposeful part of the show. I wouldn't have cared if they made the gladiator character himself black for example, because again it's fictional, but making Hannibal black isn't colourblind casting its following a trope I feel is dumb.

[garbon]

Outrage might make sense if they said we casted Denzel as we wanted a black lead for the role as it is historical. But all we know so far is they consider Vin Diesel and then picked Denzel.

[The Brain]

Considering Vin Diesel for a role is a plus?

[HVC]

Outrage might make sense if they said we casted Denzel as we wanted a black lead for the role as it is historical. But all we know so far is they consider Vin Diesel and then picked Denzel.

Do you feel that taking north African historical figures and race swapping them is culture appropriation or at least culturally incentive?

A corralary question to that, would you feel that it's wrong to race swap a black historical character for another race in colorblind casting? Would your answer change if it was a  common occurrence?