The Off Topic Topic

[Jacob]

Europe will be left behind if it doesn't integrate everything it can ASAP.

It is being done ASAP. It's just that the "as possible" part of that function has a lot of different inputs.

[Maladict]

So now the entire Dutch army is part of larger German units then?

Only the combat units. And the Dutch government still has final say in their deployment.

[Admiral Yi]

Are those 8,300 people all the fighting troops Holland has?

[Maladict]

Are those 8,300 people all the fighting troops Holland has?

Yes. Roughly the same as Germany, relative to population, I think.

[Admiral Yi]

Yes. Roughly the same as Germany, relative to population, I think.

gadzooks 

[PDH]

Sure hope they have some Krümpersystem-like plans...

[Threviel]

Yeah and one that makes perfect sense. I saw some people talking about something similar with their fleets but it was then pointed out the needs of Norway as a high north Atlantic state are very different from the other three who are all mainly Baltic. But I wonder if Danish, Finnish, Swedish fleet integration could be a thing?

The Danes also needs a blue water navy with the Faroes and Greenland and Canadian aggression to handle.

Finnish and Swedish navies can integrate, similar coast lines and similar objectives to keep the Baltic supply links open. It's just that when Sweden and Finland is inside Nato the baltic sea will be a Nato lake secured by total air and sea superiority.

I can see a case for Sweden at least to go blue water navy to support the Norwegians and the Danes out west.

[Jacob]

Yeah, Denmark is an Arctic nation and has a bit of a blue water navy. We've participated in anti-pirate patrols and the like across the globe, for example. I'm sure we could do more/ have more capacity, but it's definitely a thing for Denmark - so I think integration might be worthwhile if it helps use the force more appropriately.

That said, I think the Air Force integration thing is much more relevant given how much of the missions are about scrambling to respond to Russian incursions, and how those incursions are hampered by the Russians crossing jurisdictions. I'm not sure there's an equivalent imperative for all of Scandinavia... though I guess Baltic co-ordination could make some sense)?

[Admiral Yi]

Denmark has always made exactly one contribution to NATO and that is mining the Baltic approaches.  It's a perfectly tailored job.

[Threviel]

Finland and Sweden, and perhaps Poland and the Baltics could cooperate on a common corvette/light frigate class tailored for the Baltic Sea and specialized in ASW (since total air superiority can be assumed after one or two days of war), together we ought to be able to build 18-24 of them and use them to secure all communication inside the Baltic sea.

It is for the Swedish and Finnish navy a very different mission to the historical "hide in the archipelago and force the Russians to use overwhelming force", Sweden hasn't had a green water navy since the 80s and Finland has never had it. Both navies need to replace/refit their surface combatants to specialize on a more offensive trade protection/blockade mission.

Interesting to think about how the navy will probably be the most affected branch when we join Nato, their present mission and most of their surface ships will be obsolete the second the papers are signed. Perhaps sell the Visbys to RoC.

[Sheilbh]

That said, I think the Air Force integration thing is much more relevant given how much of the missions are about scrambling to respond to Russian incursions, and how those incursions are hampered by the Russians crossing jurisdictions. I'm not sure there's an equivalent imperative for all of Scandinavia... though I guess Baltic co-ordination could make some sense)?

Yeah maybe the Baltics and possibly Poland are the other region that seems like it could do with something similar.

The Danes also needs a blue water navy with the Faroes and Greenland and Canadian aggression to handle.

Fair point, I'd forgotten about the Faroes and Greenland and, as you say, the ever present risk of Canadian aggression.

[Valmy]

The Canadians and Danes ended their long term imperial struggle for the strategic Hans Island once the Ukraine War started. Russia brings the West together.

[Sheilbh]

The Canadians and Danes ended their long term imperial struggle for the strategic Hans Island once the Ukraine War started. Russia brings the West together.

Yes they've settled it for now, but does this look like a sustainable long term solution or just a pretext for Canadian revanchism waiting to happen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island#/map/0

[Grey Fox]

Whole of Tartupaluk forever Canadian!

[Zanza]

Just found this an interesting way to express this development. Bizarre for the wealthiest society ever.