[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Oexmelin]

From that article, it seems like Haitians, both establishment and population, want us to help fix the problem. Maybe, we should.

And the moment we're out, they're in the same shit again.  They should start helping themselves first.  They're way too passive and dependant on foreign aid.

 

[Admiral Yi]

Beyond just that though - they were ruled by various "Emperors", then there was a US occupation, then the Duvalier's, then a devastating earthquake...

The US occupation was almost a carbon copy of the current situation.

[viper37]

From that article, it seems like Haitians, both establishment and population, want us to help fix the problem. Maybe, we should.

And the moment we're out, they're in the same shit again.  They should start helping themselves first.  They're way too passive and dependant on foreign aid.

 

Ain't that the truth?  They're a very passive people in general, from all the reports I hear.

[viper37]

From that article, it seems like Haitians, both establishment and population, want us to help fix the problem. Maybe, we should.

And the moment we're out, they're in the same shit again.  They should start helping themselves first.  They're way too passive and dependant on foreign aid.

The history of Haiti is a pretty sad one - it's hard to say how the country had much of a chance

France's actions may not have helped by requiring reperations for the end of slavery, but that's hardly the only factor.

Multiple countries have tried to help since then, multiple interventions, training of the police forces, international aid that gets diverted, corrupt presidents, etc.
How many intervention in Haiti has Canada been in at this point?

[viper37]

then a devastating earthquake...

Most people try to do something when that happens.  Most Haitians just sat there, waiting.

[Barrister]

From that article, it seems like Haitians, both establishment and population, want us to help fix the problem. Maybe, we should.

And the moment we're out, they're in the same shit again.  They should start helping themselves first.  They're way too passive and dependant on foreign aid.

 

Ain't that the truth?  They're a very passive people in general, from all the reports I hear.

Why bother to accumulate wealth when it's just going to get stolen from you?

[viper37]

Why bother to accumulate wealth when it's just going to get stolen from you?

And what can we do?  We can't military occupy the country half a century and reform the institutions.

Sending a few hundred soldiers won't change anything.  

If we're to intervene, we have to be ready for a long term military occupation of the territory to purge the government and the institutions of all corruption once for all.  That's colonisaton.  I'm not sure the population will agree on that.  And within 10 years, some new government will want to disengage and things will go back to normal over there.

[Oexmelin]

Ain't that the truth?  They're a very passive people in general, from all the reports I hear.

You should try to diversify your sources of information. Next, you'll tell me that according to your sources, Asians are good at math, and Quebeckers are dimwitted lumberjacks.

[Admiral Yi]

You should try to diversify your sources of information. Next, you'll tell me that according to your sources, Asians are good at math, and Quebeckers are dimwitted lumberjacks.

It is not a country with high social capital.

[viper37]

Ain't that the truth?  They're a very passive people in general, from all the reports I hear.

You should try to diversify your sources of information. Next, you'll tell me that according to your sources, Asians are good at math, and Quebeckers are dimwitted lumberjacks.

It's not genetics, and it's not about skin color either.
It's about being dependant on others to do everything for them for so long.

Look, if you want to fix the situation, you need a military invasion and a complete take over of the government institution to purge the corruption at all levels, executive, legislative, judiciary, army, police, prisons, etc.

What's the word to describe all of this?  Are you sure all the population is behind this idea?  Are we ready to colonise Haïti?  Are we sure that whomever this government would install would be better at managing things?

How many troops does this mission require?  What kind of equipment is needed?  How long does each phases require?  What objectives to we aim for at each phases, and how to we measure them?

[Sheilbh]

It did, until France required it to pay at gun point.

Which lasted until, I believe, the late 19th century and from Jefferson until the civil war no American recognition or lawful trade with their nearest large economy.

[Oexmelin]

It did, until France required it to pay at gun point.

Which lasted until, I believe, the late 19th century and from Jefferson until the civil war no American recognition or lawful trade with their nearest large economy.

It lasted until 1947. The US took over the debt from France gradually in the early 20th century, occupying the country in 1914-1915 to ensure its payment - and leaving Marines until the 1930s.

[crazy canuck]

It did, until France required it to pay at gun point.

Which lasted until, I believe, the late 19th century and from Jefferson until the civil war no American recognition or lawful trade with their nearest large economy.

It lasted until 1947. The US took over the debt from France gradually in the early 20th century, occupying the country in 1914-1915 to ensure its payment - and leaving Marines until the 1930s.

The exploitation of Haiti is one of the shameful historical events not taught in school, so I suppose it is not a great surprise that even amongst a group of self described history nerds, there are significant knowledge gaps. Thank you for educating us     

[crazy canuck]

Rachel Notley interviewed by Wells.

She is an impressive person - but I suppose she has to be to just exist as an NDP leader in Alberta.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/can-rachel-notleys-ndp-govern-alberta-again/id1643176656?i=1000604285569

[viper37]

The exploitation of Haiti is one of the shameful historical events not taught in school, so I suppose it is not a great surprise that even amongst a group of self described history nerds, there are significant knowledge gaps. Thank you for educating us   

There's exploitation by foreigners, there's bad luck by their geographical situation, but they have their own cultural problem.
Foreign aid to Haiti following the 2010 Earhtquake

That's only direct financial aid by world's governments and the UN.
Here is the net effect of all recent foreign aid to Haiti:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/08/world/haiti-foreign-aid.html

And obviously, I like this part:

"There will be a lot of calls for international intervention and sending troops, but it's important that we take a step back and see how international intervention has contributed to this situation," said Jake Johnston, a research associate for the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, who coined the term "aid state."

"There's already been billions of dollars spent on so-called nation-building in Haiti, which has only contributed to the erosion of the state and politicization of these institutions," Mr. Johnston said. "To now say we need to do more of this, well, that won't work."

Further reading:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7864/j.ctt6wphjk

Doctor Without Borders seemed opposed to the idea of sending military aid as of last fall:
More bullets, more bloodshed