[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Sheilbh]

Although this seems far more substantive, proven and serious.

That might just be because building a case that Mueller thought could result in charges is different than the intelligence community leaking. But funneling money and volunteers to campaigns in a coordinated fashion seems like some of the most serious foreign election interference allegations we've heard - anywhere

[Oexmelin]

Trudeau came of age politically - inasmuch as he did - at a time when openness to China (its markets, but also its culture, its people) was touted as a marker of modernity and care for the world. I sometimes still meet people for whom that stance, bound up in their political awakening and broadening of horizons, remains important, and still informs their politics. Sometimes I hear echoes of that in Trudeau's speeches. In his case, it may even be tied to his father's legacy.

[crazy canuck]

Trudeau came of age politically - inasmuch as he did - at a time when openness to China (its markets, but also its culture, its people) was touted as a marker of modernity and care for the world. I sometimes still meet people for whom that stance, bound up in their political awakening and broadening of horizons, remains important, and still informs their politics. Sometimes I hear echoes of that in Trudeau's speeches. In his case, it may even be tied to his father's legacy.

Nice touch 

[Barrister]

Although this seems far more substantive, proven and serious.

That might just be because building a case that Mueller thought could result in charges is different than the intelligence community leaking. But funneling money and volunteers to campaigns in a coordinated fashion seems like some of the most serious foreign election interference allegations we've heard - anywhere

Haven't there been some pretty serious Chinese shenanigans in Australia?

[Barrister]

Locally there was a Conservative candidate who lost his Richmond riding (which was a fairly safe seat) and there has been a lot of information about how China played an active role in that loss.  So I think the Editorial piece I posted did a bit of a disservice in suggesting that China's interference played no role in the election results.

The Globe has been doing a lot of the actual reporting on this story - as you point out you linked to an editorial.

I think the point is that given the number of ridings targeted by China it is unlikely the Chinese swung the election from the Conservatives to the Libs.  But the difference between the two parties was 41 seats, so a swing of 10-12 seats would have cut that lead in half and made an even more precarious Parliament.

[Sheilbh]

You could be right.

My memory of the Australian stuff was that they werre trying to get spies into parliament rather than election meddling.

Also the Aussie discovery that their constitution barred dual citizens from sitting in parliament but they'd forgotten about it. There were also loads of Aussie MPs and Senators who forgot (or never knew) that they had dual citizenship from eg the UK, New Zealand, Greece etc and had to stand down. I think there was a Chinese angle on that scandal too - but it wasn't really an organised effort - just lots of politicians standing down, renouncing their foreign citizenship and then running in by-elections

And as the government only had a majority of one it did cause real issues - despite being fundamentally quite funny.

[crazy canuck]

Locally there was a Conservative candidate who lost his Richmond riding (which was a fairly safe seat) and there has been a lot of information about how China played an active role in that loss.  So I think the Editorial piece I posted did a bit of a disservice in suggesting that China's interference played no role in the election results.

The Globe has been doing a lot of the actual reporting on this story - as you point out you linked to an editorial.

I think the point is that given the number of ridings targeted by China it is unlikely the Chinese swung the election from the Conservatives to the Libs.  But the difference between the two parties was 41 seats, so a swing of 10-12 seats would have cut that lead in half and made an even more precarious Parliament.

The thing we won't know is what resources had to be diverted by the Conservatives to ridings in which the Chinese were funding the Conservative opponent.  And what effect that had on the ridings where a Conservative candidate might have benefited from greater financial support.  The election was close and there are precious few swing ridings in this Country.   

[Jacob]

Yeah countenancing Chinese election interference is something that'd significantly impact my perspective of the Trudeau government.

[Barrister]

Trudeau doubles down, saying questioning the loyalties of any of his MPs is "Anti-Asian racism".

https://twitter.com/aballinga/status/1630286428872626176

[Jacob]

Do any of you have one or two good links with good summaries of the situation as it stands right now?

[viper37]

Locally there was a Conservative candidate who lost his Richmond riding (which was a fairly safe seat) and there has been a lot of information about how China played an active role in that loss.  So I think the Editorial piece I posted did a bit of a disservice in suggesting that China's interference played no role in the election results.

You posted an editorial from the G&M.  They are not going to overtly attack that Liberals.

But look at the wording: played no role in the election results.
The election results is that we have a minority Liberal government 157 to 121 seats.  To affect the election results, China needs to have had direct influence on 37 electoral seats in favour of the Liberal Party, against the Conservative.

Even the Conservatives will not go that far, they talk about 8 candidates defeated by Chinese interference.  So, it did not affect the election results.  Even with 8 more candidates, we still get Trudeau as Prime Minister.

[viper37]

And then yes - it's so typical for the Liberals to take any criticism of their lack of interest into election interference as being 'Trumpian election deniers'.

Yeah Trump crying wolf over all this stuff does make it easier for actual election shenanigans to occur. And bear in mind there is plenty of it in the United States, it is just well known and out in open not done by secret cabals of voting machine companies and vote counting volunteers.

I think it is the opposite -  Trump proved that one can shake off clear evidence of foreign election interference which benefits you and still keep your base.  Trudeau seemed to have learned that lesson and is following the same game plan.

So the next election will be between two leaders who inspire themselves from Trump, one who wants to emulate Bernie Sanders and one who defended a sexual aggressor for all his career and cheated most of his artists but never saw anything?  Great politics

[Jacob]

Are the allegations that the PRC interfered in the elections by covertly supporting specific Libaral candidates? Or are the allegations that those specific Liberal candidates (or some of them) are knowingly collaborating with the PRC?

Those are two very different things. Both are serious, but one more serious than the other.

[Sheilbh]

The other option from that article seems to maybe be wilfull blindness? The PRC were covertly supporting candidates and there was a desire not to lift up any rocks for fear of what you might find.

[Barrister]

Are the allegations that the PRC interfered in the elections by covertly supporting specific Libaral candidates? Or are the allegations that those specific Liberal candidates (or some of them) are knowingly collaborating with the PRC?

Those are two very different things. Both are serious, but one more serious than the other.

The former.