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We're looking to buy a used car, and I'm not pleased with the price mark-up over the Kelley Blue Book price. Right now, the dealer it going for a 25% mark-up, which seems ridiculously excessive to me. I plan to counter-offer at closer to 10% over KBB.

What's considered reasonable for a dealer to mark-up? I know it's whatever the market will bear, but I'm wondering what you, personally, would pay.

Blue Book is just a guide and is going to vary a lot regionally.

If you think they're asking too much, shop around and look for comparables.  That'll be more helpful to you than pointing to blue book.



And hey, something to watch out for.  I have a file recently where people were stealing vehicles, getting a VIN number for a valid vehicle, then re-VINning the stolen vehicle with a new, cloned VIN.  I have a couple of innocent buyers who took out loans for their trucks, only to have the vehicle seized from them as stolen property and still be stuck paying the loan.

Quote from: Barrister on February 07, 2013, 10:03:17 AM
Blue Book is just a guide and is going to vary a lot regionally.

If you think they're asking too much, shop around and look for comparables.  That'll be more helpful to you than pointing to blue book.

That's why I asked what amount you'd be willing to pay over that amount. Since it's, you know, a good guide to go by. :)

QuoteAnd hey, something to watch out for.  I have a file recently where people were stealing vehicles, getting a VIN number for a valid vehicle, then re-VINning the stolen vehicle with a new, cloned VIN.  I have a couple of innocent buyers who took out loans for their trucks, only to have the vehicle seized from them as stolen property and still be stuck paying the loan.

Thanks! This is through a dealer with a huge face in our town, so I'm hoping that won't be a problem there. If so, we have some recourse as it's not an individual but a BBB-card carrying business with a physical presence. Hopefully, anyway.

The British equivalent Parkers has different prices for whether you're buying privately, from a dealer or part exchange, and for the condition of the vehicle. The initial price is always negotiable. Decide how much you're prepared to pay and initially offer 10% below that and be prepared to haggle. Your ultimate weapon is, "Oh, I was hoping to pay XXX" and start walking out.

Make sure to get the car fox.  :D

What ever he paid + 3%.

That's what I got for my new car.

Brazen has a good point.  Blue Book might be a better guide to private party sales.  Dealers need *some* kind of mark up to amortize inventory costs, fixed costs, labor, etc.

I just buy new now, but I've read in the Wall Street Journal that the long economic stagnation has lead to more people than ever before buying used instead of new, which has lead to the discount for buying used versus buying new being at all time lows.

Quote from: Brazen on February 07, 2013, 10:21:56 AM
The British equivalent Parkers has different prices for whether you're buying privately, from a dealer or part exchange, and for the condition of the vehicle. The initial price is always negotiable. Decide how much you're prepared to pay and initially offer 10% below that and be prepared to haggle. You're ultimate weapon is, "Oh, I was hoping to pay XXX" and start walking out.

That's my plan of action. :)

And Kelley Blue Book does the same. The price that I'm willing to pay is no more than 10% over the KBB price for a vehicle in similar condition, same miles, and sold by a dealer. I'm okay with a mark-up, but not a 25% mark-up.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2013, 10:27:05 AM
Brazen has a good point.  Blue Book might be a better guide to private party sales.  Dealers need *some* kind of mark up to amortize inventory costs, fixed costs, labor, etc.

Sure, but you know they paid well below the kbb retail price for it.  I would think a rule of thumb would be to look up the dealer trade-in value for the car in question and knock maybe 10% off that to figure out what they paid.

But hell, sometimes they're willing to take a loss on something just to get rid of it. 

Hmmm, I generally would not pay over KBB at all.

Have you checked Edmunds?

Quote from: Berkut on February 07, 2013, 10:51:10 AM
Hmmm, I generally would not pay over KBB at all.

Have you checked Edmunds?

KBB lists it at ~$10,000
Edmunds lists it at ~$10,500

Trade-in value:
KBB lists it at $7800
Edmunds lists it at $8000

Overall, the price of $13,100 is way over priced, imo.

Turn up with those priced ringed it red to show them you've done your research and tell them you won't pay over that.

I briefly looked at cars last week when I was told the estimates to repair my present car.  I fucking hate dealers.  Decided to fix my car and just keep it another year or so. 

These things seem to vary by region significantly. The dealers where I live generally sell cars a bit under blue book.

Quote from: merithyn on February 07, 2013, 11:43:08 AM

Quote from: Berkut on February 07, 2013, 10:51:10 AM
Hmmm, I generally would not pay over KBB at all.

Have you checked Edmunds?

KBB lists it at ~$10,000
Edmunds lists it at ~$10,500

Trade-in value:
KBB lists it at $7800
Edmunds lists it at $8000

Overall, the price of $13,100 is way over priced, imo.

Cool, that works.

So you know what they paid for it - somewhere around 8k.

A reasonable profit for them is going to be $500-$800.

So offer them $9,000, negotiate from there.

If you pay over $10k, you are too eager.

The thing to realize is that for the dealer, selling you a car at a lower profit is very much prefereable to them NOT selling you a car at all.

Therefore, you have to make them realize that you are not approaching the negotiation from the standpoint of "I want this car, but want to pay as little as I can for it!" but rather "I want *a* car, and this one would do, but so would some other one from somewhere else if I cannot get the price I want on this one".

That seems like a pretty subtle difference, but it is huge in practical effect. The best way to make sure they know you are willing to just walk away?

Be willing yourself to just walk away if you don't get the price you want.

There are lots of other cars out there.

Best advice Berkut ever gave out.

I concur.

Quote from: Berkut on February 07, 2013, 12:45:47 PM
The thing to realize is that for the dealer, selling you a car at a lower profit is very much prefereable to them NOT selling you a car at all.

Therefore, you have to make them realize that you are not approaching the negotiation from the standpoint of "I want this car, but want to pay as little as I can for it!" but rather "I want *a* car, and this one would do, but so would some other one from somewhere else if I cannot get the price I want on this one".

That seems like a pretty subtle difference, but it is huge in practical effect. The best way to make sure they know you are willing to just walk away?

Be willing yourself to just walk away if you don't get the price you want.

There are lots of other cars out there.

Brilliant advice, Berkie.

The good thing is that neither Max nor I are huge car people. This is a nice car and it would work for us, but not if it's too much. I've already found two other cars - one a year newer with more options - with the same amount of miles in the price-range that we're looking at. Plus, it's a Toyota over a Jeep, so it will ride/drive better, imo, and probably last longer.

It also helps that we're not in a rush to get a car. If we got one today, great. If not, well, we've been without for over a year. What's a few more weeks? It's not going to hurt our feelings to say thanks but no thanks, but I think you're right in that it may hurt them.

From what I remember you're supposed to walk around the car to kick all four tyres, tap the each of sills with you hands and see how much play there is in the steering; that's just about it isn't for checks ?  :unsure:

Oh god, don't buy an old American car. Unless its like 1970's old or a pickup.

What are the details meri?

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 07, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
Oh god, don't buy an old American car. Unless its like 1970's old or a pickup.

What are the details meri?

2006 Jeep Liberty Limited 4x4 w/ 50,500 miles

Asking $14,995; offering it for $13,165

Found a 2007 Hyundai Tuscon (http://www.jacksonford.com/used/Hyundai/2007-Hyundai-Tucson-abb202ff0a0a00020161305f8c344b66.htm) that I like better, anyway.

Quote from: merithyn on February 07, 2013, 03:54:25 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 07, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
Oh god, don't buy an old American car. Unless its like 1970's old or a pickup.

What are the details meri?

2006 Jeep Liberty Limited 4x4 w/ 50,500 miles

Asking $14,995; offering it for $13,165

Found a 2007 Hyundai Tuscon (http://www.jacksonford.com/used/Hyundai/2007-Hyundai-Tucson-abb202ff0a0a00020161305f8c344b66.htm) that I like better, anyway.

I don't think the Liberty was very well received or reviewed.  No comment on the Tucson - had bad experience with Hyundai, but supposedly are better.

Apparently Hyundais pre 2006 or 07 or so were crap,  after that they're supposedly very reliable. I hope it's true, since mine is from 09.

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 07, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
Oh god, don't buy an old American car. Unless its like 1970's old or a pickup.

What are the details meri?

Everything I've read about car quality states that in the last 15 years or so American makers have closed the quality gap and buyers are in effect paying an unwarranted premium for non-American brands.

I have a 2006 Hyundai and like it.  It is a Sonata, so on eof their midrange vehicles.  I was thinking about getting a 2012 Sonata last week, but hwen the sticker price was 22k and they said they'd sell it to me for 23k - but only if I signed right then and there because all the deals were going to go away in minutes - I decided on Toyota instead when I get another car.

What's the mpg on these things ?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2013, 04:00:58 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 07, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
Oh god, don't buy an old American car. Unless its like 1970's old or a pickup.

What are the details meri?

Everything I've read about car quality states that in the last 15 years or so American makers have closed the quality gap and buyers are in effect paying an unwarranted premium for non-American brands.

I dunno man - its not just an American car, it's a Chrysler...

Quote from: mongers on February 07, 2013, 04:24:36 PM
What's the mpg on these things ?

Crap on the Liberty (23 highway/15 city), but 28/23 on the Hyundai.

Quote from: Barrister on February 07, 2013, 10:03:17 AM
Blue Book is just a guide and is going to vary a lot regionally.

If you think they're asking too much, shop around and look for comparables.  That'll be more helpful to you than pointing to blue book.



And hey, something to watch out for.  I have a file recently where people were stealing vehicles, getting a VIN number for a valid vehicle, then re-VINning the stolen vehicle with a new, cloned VIN.  I have a couple of innocent buyers who took out loans for their trucks, only to have the vehicle seized from them as stolen property and still be stuck paying the loan.

Their title is void, but seems like they should have some remedy in contract, though, right?  Like recission due to failure of consideration or mutual mistake as to the subject matter of the contract.  I don't see how they can still be on the hook for the loan.

There's no option in the poll for "I expect to pay less than kbb". So I didn't vote.  :)

Quote from: merithyn on February 07, 2013, 05:19:02 PM

Quote from: mongers on February 07, 2013, 04:24:36 PM
What's the mpg on these things ?

Crap on the Liberty (23 highway/15 city), but 28/23 on the Hyundai.

:thumbsup:

Funny historically I used to average about 35mpg (imperial) across a range of crap British and European cars.

Jeep Liberty? :x

I've heard nothing but bad things about those.

Quote from: Caliga on February 07, 2013, 06:36:52 PM
Jeep Liberty? :x

I've heard nothing but bad things about those.

Yeah, reading some of the online reviews is hilarious; I've had my windows repaired 14 times and they still fall out.

Good to know.

Quote from: merithyn on February 07, 2013, 03:54:25 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 07, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
Oh god, don't buy an old American car. Unless its like 1970's old or a pickup.

What are the details meri?

2006 Jeep Liberty Limited 4x4 w/ 50,500 miles

Asking $14,995; offering it for $13,165

Found a 2007 Hyundai Tuscon (http://www.jacksonford.com/used/Hyundai/2007-Hyundai-Tucson-abb202ff0a0a00020161305f8c344b66.htm) that I like better, anyway.

Just looking at the Carmax closest to you (Tinly Park, IL, if I am correct) has comparable Jeep Libertys for under $12k (with a bit more mileage though).  And that's at a no-haggle Carmax.


But I'd take their older Honda CR-V over Jeep/Chrysler junk.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2013, 04:00:58 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 07, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
Oh god, don't buy an old American car. Unless its like 1970's old or a pickup.

What are the details meri?

Everything I've read about car quality states that in the last 15 years or so American makers have closed the quality gap and buyers are in effect paying an unwarranted premium for non-American brands.

15 years? for Ford maybe. GM is 6 to 8 years & Chrysler still isn't there.

I have a 2010 Hyundai Elantra, it has fabulous mpg. 28 in winter, around 40 in summer.

Quote from: Tonitrus on February 07, 2013, 07:30:00 PM
Just looking at the Carmax closest to you (Tinly Park, IL, if I am correct) has comparable Jeep Libertys for under $12k (with a bit more mileage though).  And that's at a no-haggle Carmax.


But I'd take their older Honda CR-V over Jeep/Chrysler junk.

:lol:

Tinley Park is about 2.5 hours north of us. :D It may be the closest Carmax, though.

We told them no on the Jeep. Going to look at the Hyundai on Wednesday.

We haz new-ish car. :)

We ended up going with a 2009 PT Cruiser with 53,500 miles for ~$9500. That's below KBB and Edmond's value, and it's a nice, clean car. We also went to a different dealer, and I'm so glad we did. The sleaze factor was noticeably lower where we bought the car than the other place. Plus, the salesman gave me a dozen red roses for buying the car. :wub:

Quote from: merithyn on February 12, 2013, 11:39:30 PM
2009 PT Cruiser

:bleeding:

Quote from: Habbaku on February 12, 2013, 11:43:29 PM

Quote from: merithyn on February 12, 2013, 11:39:30 PM
2009 PT Cruiser

:bleeding:

Meh. It has enough room for the family, gets decent gas mileage, and was relatively cheap. You don't have to drive it, so I say meh to you. :P

Quote from: merithyn on February 13, 2013, 12:06:16 AM

Quote from: Habbaku on February 12, 2013, 11:43:29 PM

Quote from: merithyn on February 12, 2013, 11:39:30 PM
2009 PT Cruiser

:bleeding:

Meh. It has enough room for the family, gets decent gas mileage, and was relatively cheap. You don't have to drive it, so I say meh to you. :P

Then your image as a middle aged lesbian will be secure.

Hard to believe you bought a PT Loser.  Fail.

Quote from: merithyn on February 12, 2013, 11:39:30 PMThe sleaze factor was noticeably lower where we bought the car than the other place.

Quote from: merithynPlus, the salesman gave me a dozen red roses for buying the car. :wub:

:hmm: :D

First a Jeep Liberty, then a PT Cruiser? :huh:  It's like Meri is trying to get the worst car imaginable. :hmm:

as someone who knows nothing about cars, what's wrong with a PT cruiser?

They're made by Chrysler, for one.  Also, they look stupid and, like the Liberty, have a bad reliability rep.  Also, IIRC they have low safety ratings.

Thought they were bought by ricers who couldn't afford a Honda.  Or the gangsta subtype.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2013, 04:00:58 PM
Everything I've read about car quality states that in the last 15 years or so American makers have closed the quality gap and buyers are in effect paying an unwarranted premium for non-American brands.

This is true;  the days of American planned obsolescence, low quality steel and other substandard practices are pretty much gone.  Unfortunately, nothing lends itself to generational brand loyalty than cars.  Granddad was a General Motors man, and that made Dad a General Motors man, etc.

With the exception of poor design (such as underpowered engines) I'm a firm believer that, if you take care of a car properly it will take care of you, regardless of make or price point.

I like the Pontiac Aztek.

That is all.

Quote from: Barrister on February 07, 2013, 10:03:17 AM
Blue Book is just a guide and is going to vary a lot regionally.

If you think they're asking too much, shop around and look for comparables.  That'll be more helpful to you than pointing to blue book.



And hey, something to watch out for.  I have a file recently where people were stealing vehicles, getting a VIN number for a valid vehicle, then re-VINning the stolen vehicle with a new, cloned VIN.  I have a couple of innocent buyers who took out loans for their trucks, only to have the vehicle seized from them as stolen property and still be stuck paying the loan.

That last problem's not a risk here.  UCC and MVTA FTW.

Quote from: merithyn on February 12, 2013, 11:39:30 PM
2009 PT Cruiser

:( hope it was well taken care of.

Quote from: Scipio on February 13, 2013, 07:49:22 AM

Quote from: Barrister on February 07, 2013, 10:03:17 AM
Blue Book is just a guide and is going to vary a lot regionally.

If you think they're asking too much, shop around and look for comparables.  That'll be more helpful to you than pointing to blue book.



And hey, something to watch out for.  I have a file recently where people were stealing vehicles, getting a VIN number for a valid vehicle, then re-VINning the stolen vehicle with a new, cloned VIN.  I have a couple of innocent buyers who took out loans for their trucks, only to have the vehicle seized from them as stolen property and still be stuck paying the loan.

That last problem's not a risk here.  UCC and MVTA FTW.

How is that not a risk?

You can do the responsible thing and get a search of the VIN, but because the VIN has been cloned the search comes back as clean.

Quote from: Caliga on February 13, 2013, 06:45:18 AM
They're made by Chrysler, for one.  Also, they look stupid and, like the Liberty, have a bad reliability rep.  Also, IIRC they have low safety ratings.

Quote from: lustindarkness on February 13, 2013, 11:07:34 AM
:( hope it was well taken care of.

Edmunds Review - Reliability (http://www.edmunds.com/chrysler/pt-cruiser/2009/reliability.html?style=101068495)
Edmunds Review - Safety (http://www.edmunds.com/chrysler/pt-cruiser/2009/safety.html?style=101068494&sub=)

:hmm:

Seem you guys have out-dated information. The 2009 is reliable and safe. I also have no problem with how they look.

Please report on how fast it's falling apart/holding up.

Your the first person I know to buy a PT Cruiser.

2nd.  Brazen has one.

Meri, are you turning into Brazen's internet stalker fangirl? :hmm:

She does? Didn't know.

We bought it because it fit our criteria, not because we set out to buy one. It works, it's the right price, and it has the right amount of room. *shrugs* It's a car, for heaven's sake, not a child.

Are you thinking about dying your hair red?  :ph34r:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 13, 2013, 11:47:39 AM
2nd.  Brazen has one.

Meri, are you turning into Brazen's internet stalker fangirl? :hmm:

Oh that's right! But often can she drive it in London? Plus you know, no real winter.

@ meri
I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings or anything, but just to give you honest feedback I've heard from others (and obviously my comment about how it looks stupid is not exactly objective.  :sleep: )

Quote from: merithyn on February 13, 2013, 11:50:32 AM
She does? Didn't know.

We bought it because it fit our criteria, not because we set out to buy one. It works, it's the right price, and it has the right amount of room. *shrugs* It's a car, for heaven's sake, not a child.

It can be. It could end up costing you thousands upon thousands of dollars.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 13, 2013, 11:52:16 AM
Are you thinking about dying your hair red?  :ph34r:

:lol:

I was born with red hair. :contract:

B is strawberry, I'm auburn.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 13, 2013, 11:52:16 AM
Are you thinking about dying your hair red?  :ph34r:

She already considers her brown hair red.  :P

Quote from: Caliga on February 13, 2013, 11:52:52 AM
@ meri
I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings or anything, but just to give you honest feedback I've heard from others (and obviously my comment about how it looks stupid is not exactly objective.  :sleep: )

My feelings aren't hurt. We just looked it up last night and knew otherwise. Why would I care what others think of the car that I drive? :huh:

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 13, 2013, 11:53:27 AM
It can be. It could end up costing you thousands upon thousands of dollars.

Not when you buy a warranty with the car. Lemons terrify me. Well worth the cost for the warranty.

Quote from: merithyn on February 13, 2013, 11:57:50 AM

Quote from: Caliga on February 13, 2013, 11:52:52 AM
@ meri
I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings or anything, but just to give you honest feedback I've heard from others (and obviously my comment about how it looks stupid is not exactly objective.  :sleep: )

My feelings aren't hurt. We just looked it up last night and knew otherwise. Why would I care what others think of the car that I drive? :huh:

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 13, 2013, 11:53:27 AM
It can be. It could end up costing you thousands upon thousands of dollars.

Not when you buy a warranty with the car. Lemons terrify me. Well worth the cost for the warranty.

1st law of the Internet: everybody thinks they know better.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 13, 2013, 11:55:23 AM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 13, 2013, 11:52:16 AM
Are you thinking about dying your hair red?  :ph34r:

She already considers her brown hair red.  :P

Heh. Anyone who sees my hair in sunlight doesn't question that it's red. I dye it more brown now, anyway, to get rid of the gray. The brown lasts longer. Still looks red in sunlight, but not as bright as it used to be.

Quote from: Barrister on February 13, 2013, 11:19:31 AM

Quote from: Scipio on February 13, 2013, 07:49:22 AM

Quote from: Barrister on February 07, 2013, 10:03:17 AM
Blue Book is just a guide and is going to vary a lot regionally.

If you think they're asking too much, shop around and look for comparables.  That'll be more helpful to you than pointing to blue book.



And hey, something to watch out for.  I have a file recently where people were stealing vehicles, getting a VIN number for a valid vehicle, then re-VINning the stolen vehicle with a new, cloned VIN.  I have a couple of innocent buyers who took out loans for their trucks, only to have the vehicle seized from them as stolen property and still be stuck paying the loan.

That last problem's not a risk here.  UCC and MVTA FTW.

How is that not a risk?

You can do the responsible thing and get a search of the VIN, but because the VIN has been cloned the search comes back as clean.

I'm not sure because I'm traditionally weak on the UCC, but if the car is stolen, I think title is void all down the chain, regardless of intent or whether you got it from an innocent merchant.

I'd like Scip to elaborate on this as well.

Quote from: merithyn on February 13, 2013, 12:06:49 PM
Heh. Anyone who sees my hair in sunlight doesn't question that it's red.

:zipped:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 13, 2013, 12:11:28 PM

Quote from: merithyn on February 13, 2013, 12:06:49 PM
Heh. Anyone who sees my hair in sunlight doesn't question that it's red.

:zipped:

Dude, I've been dying my hair brown for the last decade or longer. You couldn't have seen it when it was red. Well, unless you happened to catch me when I dyed it red on the odd occasion. My hair hasn't been it's natural color in ages! :lol:

Quote from: merithyn on February 13, 2013, 12:19:33 PM
Dude, I've been dying my hair brown for the last decade or longer. You couldn't have seen it when it was red. Well, unless you happened to catch me when I dyed it red on the odd occasion. My hair hasn't been it's natural color in ages! :lol:

Your story keeps changing, stalker girl.

Have you already ordered your jester hat? 

Come to think of it, which of you two got their boy toy first?  :hmm:

I had a PT cruiser as a rental car once. I remember it having terrible acceleration and a turning circle wider than that of a big truck.

Quote from: Zanza on February 13, 2013, 12:40:08 PM
I had a PT cruiser as a rental car once. I remember it having terrible acceleration and a turning circle wider than that of a big truck.

Ditto.  That thing was an absolute turd to drive.

Quote from: Zanza on February 13, 2013, 12:40:08 PM
I had a PT cruiser as a rental car once. I remember it having terrible acceleration and a turning circle wider than that of a big truck.

Yeah, but you're a MB paid shill.  :P

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 13, 2013, 12:24:04 PM
Your story keeps changing, stalker girl.

Have you already ordered your jester hat? 

You'll know when she's finally assumed Brazen's identity when her defense industry articles refer to "drone thingies".

I wish Meri the best of luck but yeah heard horror stories on maintenance track record for the PT.

I think all American cars have gone with that cab-forward, huge wheel base, mongo turning radius design.  I believe it's a cheap way to decrease weight without increasing flip overs.  I drove a loaner Taurus the other day that turned like a supertanker.

Quote from: merithyn on February 13, 2013, 11:37:54 AM

Quote from: Caliga on February 13, 2013, 06:45:18 AM
They're made by Chrysler, for one.  Also, they look stupid and, like the Liberty, have a bad reliability rep.  Also, IIRC they have low safety ratings.

Quote from: lustindarkness on February 13, 2013, 11:07:34 AM
:( hope it was well taken care of.

Edmunds Review - Reliability (http://www.edmunds.com/chrysler/pt-cruiser/2009/reliability.html?style=101068495)
Edmunds Review - Safety (http://www.edmunds.com/chrysler/pt-cruiser/2009/safety.html?style=101068494&sub=)

:hmm:

Seem you guys have out-dated information. The 2009 is reliable and safe. I also have no problem with how they look.

I looked it up in Consumer Reports.  The good news is that 2009 model seems to be more reliable than earlier years.  The bad news, is, well...

Wow, I just took a look around Edmunds, and it looks like they sold out big time.  Either their reliability numbers are bogus, or they're compiled in a meaningless way.  Every car I picked at random had five out of five dots for reliability rating.  Then, as an extreme test, I wanted to see how they would rate Range Rover, the king of the last place of every car reliability survey known to man.  It got five out of five dots.  :hmm:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 13, 2013, 12:24:04 PM

Quote from: merithyn on February 13, 2013, 12:19:33 PM
Dude, I've been dying my hair brown for the last decade or longer. You couldn't have seen it when it was red. Well, unless you happened to catch me when I dyed it red on the odd occasion. My hair hasn't been it's natural color in ages! :lol:

Your story keeps changing, stalker girl.

Have you already ordered your jester hat? 

Come to think of it, which of you two got their boy toy first?  :hmm:

Today is our 8th anniversary... and he introduced me to Languish. Back then, B was still married to Piss-Pot Face, sooo... me.  :D

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2013, 12:51:16 PM

You'll know when she's finally assumed Brazen's identity when her defense industry articles refer to "drone thingies".

:lol:

That about sums it up, yes. :D

Quote from: Barrister on February 13, 2013, 11:19:31 AM

Quote from: Scipio on February 13, 2013, 07:49:22 AM

Quote from: Barrister on February 07, 2013, 10:03:17 AM
Blue Book is just a guide and is going to vary a lot regionally.

If you think they're asking too much, shop around and look for comparables.  That'll be more helpful to you than pointing to blue book.



And hey, something to watch out for.  I have a file recently where people were stealing vehicles, getting a VIN number for a valid vehicle, then re-VINning the stolen vehicle with a new, cloned VIN.  I have a couple of innocent buyers who took out loans for their trucks, only to have the vehicle seized from them as stolen property and still be stuck paying the loan.

That last problem's not a risk here.  UCC and MVTA FTW.

How is that not a risk?

You can do the responsible thing and get a search of the VIN, but because the VIN has been cloned the search comes back as clean.

Innocent purchaser, buyer in due course.  The car cannot be taken from you.  If it is, you cannot be forced to pay the note for a car that you do not own due to someone else's illegal actions.

Scip, I thought the title for stolen property was void under the UCC, therefore the seller has no power to transfer title (also no right, but this isn't important).

I do think the recourse for the lender would be to recover from the seller, not the purchaser.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 13, 2013, 08:36:16 PM
Scip, I thought the title for stolen property was void under the UCC, therefore the seller has no power to transfer title (also no right, but this isn't important).

I do think the recourse for the lender would be to recover from the seller, not the purchaser.

My point is that an innocent third party is not liable to the lender, and probably cannot be deprived of the vehicle.