Yesterday was the 10th anniversary of the release of Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1800379216/info (http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1800379216/info)
I shall celebrate this historic milestone by choking some Gungans with the help of midi-chlorians. :)
Did anyone here see the midnight release of the film?
I particularly enjoyed the Jud Süss reference. Felt fresh. :)
Quote from: The Brain on May 20, 2009, 12:33:13 PM
I particularly enjoyed the Jud Süss reference. Felt fresh. :)
That was nice, but I personally preferred the Mask of Fu Manchu reference found in the scenes with the
evir Asian ariens.
It was the first pirated movie I watched, when a friend showed up with a video tape ( :lol: ) of the movie less than a month after U.S. release (was scheduled for August or September in Germany).
It was after that experience that studios strived to put out major releases (near) simultaneously over here and in the U.S., not with 3 or 4 months delay as planned in this case and as was the norm before then.
Btw, my first thought at reading the topic title was the Al Yankovic song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl4fazc-hU0
Heretic! the true birthday of Star Wars was 25th May 1977! :ultra:
And yes, I went to all the midnight shows. :P :nerd:
The day the Star Wars died :(
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2009, 01:00:54 PM
The day the Star Wars died :(
:huh:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2Fjarjar01.jpg&hash=fcb6afebae219f4a830a4f8b1f3e6ff1e4d3c5fe)
Went to see it a week or so after it was released. My expectations were so low after seeing the previews + spotting a Jar Jar poster at Walmart, that it slightly exceeded my expectations. It was still a disservice to the original trilogy, of course.
I was on vacation, visiting some friends in West Virginia, so we went to a matinee to watch it. Being crammed in a theater with a bunch of rednecks & their kids made it... interesting.
I did go to the midnight show of all three. Three midnight shows, three cruddy mornings, three big disappointments.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 20, 2009, 01:45:47 PM
I did go to the midnight show of all three. Three midnight shows, three cruddy mornings, three big disappointments.
Why do you hate yourself so much? :(
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 20, 2009, 01:45:47 PM
I did go to the midnight show of all three. Three midnight shows, three cruddy mornings, three big disappointments.
I thought Revenge of the Sith was pretty good.
http://www.brycemoore.com/academic/linguistics/jarjar.html (http://www.brycemoore.com/academic/linguistics/jarjar.html)
QuoteMesa Jar Jar Binks:
A Linguistic Look at the Gungan Language
Introduction
Who knew linguistics could be so much fun? This is the paper I wrote for English 323, the class that made me decide to add linguistics as a second major during my undergraduate years. The topic is perhaps a little out of the pop-culture limelight by now, but if you'll all recall, at the time there was quite the uproar over Jar Har and his ridiculous lines. Doing a simple linguistic analysis, I found there was a good reason for that furor: his dialectic is about as stupid as he is. Read on and find out why.
Paper
In the recent movie "Star Wars Episode One," the character of Jar Jar Binks created much controversy and discussion. People either hated or loved him. One of the main reasons for this love/hate attitude is the peculiar Gungan dialect that Jar Jar speaks. Most people overlooked the fact that the Gungan dialect offers many examples of simple linguistic fundamentals such as phonological rules, word formations, and speech acts. A careful look at Jar Jar's lines brings these points to light.
To begin it must be noted that the actor's representation of Jar Jar's speech often differs from Jar Jar's lines in the original script. For example, in Jar Jar's opening scene in the movie, he says "Oh boot it is! Tis demunded byda guds it is." In the script, the lines goes as follows: "Oh boot tis! Tis demunded byda guds. Tis a live debett, tis" (16). Jar Jar's dialect does not use the word "it" in the screenplay without shortening it or joining it to another word, but this example shows that the actor does not follow this rule in the movie. For purposes of regularity, the screenplay will be used as the authoritative source for the Gungan dialect.
Jar Jar often changes his speech in accordance with various phonological rules. First of all, progressive assimilation affects his speech. One good example of this is his tendency to change words ending in /Iŋ/ to instead end in /In/. "Nosir, nosir. Mesa hate crunchen. Dat's da last ting mesa wanten" (50) /I/ is a high front lax unrounded vowel. Because /I/ is pronounced at the front of the mouth, /ŋ/, a velar nasal pronounced near the back of the mouth is assimilated and changed to /n/, an alveolar nasal that is pronounced at the front, as well. Segment deletion, the deletion of a sound, also plays a part. "Da speedest way tooda Naboo is goen through da core" (20). Here /spidiεst/ changes to /spidεst/, with the extra /i/ deleted completely from the word.
The Gungan dialect contains many examples of word formations. Compounding, the process by which two words are joined in order to form a new word, is very prevalent. "Maxibig" (22) refers to something very large and the "Nocomebackie law" (21) is just what it sounds like--a rule of banishment. Zero Derivation, using the same form of a word to mean different things, also functions as a word formation process in Jar Jar's dialect. "Bombad" can mean both "good" (30), "bad" (114), and even is a title in the Gungan army--"Bombad General" (115). Outright coinage is present too. Such words as "bongo" (20), the word for a submarine; "Fambaa" (118), the word for the huge lizards that Gungans; and even "Gungan" itself are all coined words.
Jar Jar gives audiences examples of speech acts, both direct and indirect. "Mesa wonder why da guds invent pain," (104) illustrates the concept of a performative verb. Just by declaring that he wonders, Jar Jar accomplishes that action. This is an example of a direct speech act, an act where the form has a direct relation to the function the sentence plays. By saying "ahh... any hep here would be hot," (21) Jar Jar uses an indirect speech act. This sentence functions as a request for help, even though no question is actually asked. Its form does not relate directly to its function.
Jar Jar's dialect itself offers an intriguing view into the inner workings of language. One of the dominant aspects of the Gungan dialect is its treatment of pronouns. We, I, and you are pronounced "wesa," "mesa," and "yousa," while he and us are pronounced "hisens" and "uss-en." Helping verbs such as "be" and "do" are usually replaced by these altered pronouns, as well. "Mesa Ja Ja Binkss" means "I am Jar Jar Binks," and "Wesa no like the Naboo" means "We do not like the Naboo." Ideally, rules such as these form the basis for a normal dialect.
However, Jar Jar's dialect is not consistent. In the 33 times Jar Jar uses a word that means "I," 24 times he uses "mesa," but he uses "my" five times and leaves it as "I" four times. There is seemingly no pattern that he follows to determine his pronoun choice. "Me" is replaced with "my," "mesa," or just left "me." His pronunciation is also haphazard. Sometimes /θ/ and /δ/ are replaced with /t/ and /d/ respectively such as in "tink" for "think" and "da" for "the." However, Jar Jar says "without" and "them" normally. Jar Jar's accent follows no rhyme or reason. For example, /i/ is pronounced as /e/ in some words (such as "spake" for "speak" (15) and "hair" for "here" (20)), but is unchanged in the prevalent "mesa" and "wesa" words. "The" is sometimes pronounced "der" (17) instead of the usual "da."
All of these contradictions were written into the script. The actor then went on to alter many of the lines as he saw fit. The result is a dialect that often fails to follow the rules it is based on. At times, it seems to have no discernible rules at all. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Jar Jar's character was both so disliked and so hard to understand by viewers. A naturally formed dialect follows consistent rules, even though those rules are often at odds with the standard dialect. Once these rules are understood, the listener can then clearly understand what the speaker is saying. If this pattern is not followed, confusion is the result. When creating Jar Jar's lines, more care should have been taken to ensure that his dialect remained true to itself, but his dialect still serves to exemplify linguistic principles.
Bibliography
Lucas, George. Star Wars Episode One: The Phantom Menace Illustrated Screenplay. New York, NY: Del Rey, 1999.
I hope he got an A for that. :)
Klingon > Gungan
http://www.slate.com/id/2217815/
QuoteThere's No Klingon Word for HelloA history of the gruff but surprisingly sophisticated invented language and the people who speak it.
By Arika OkrentPosted Thursday, May 7, 2009, at 11:54 AM ET
There's something missing from J.J. Abrams' reboot of the moribund Star Trek franchise, and that something is Klingon. I mean Klingon the language. If that sounds like a minor omission, consider this: The very first lines of the first Star Trek movie in 1979 were in Klingon: wIy cha'! HaSta! cha yIghuS! And those few words—which were subtitled as "Tactical ... Visual ... Tactical, stand by on torpedoes!"—have since blossomed into, if not a full-fledged language, one at least fledged enough to have a dictionary, a translation of Hamlet, and a small but dedicated community of (nonfictional) speakers, who'll feel miffed by Abrams' oversight.
Let's just skip over the customary jokes about 40-year-old virgins who still live in their parents' basements. Klingon speakers have heard them all. But the insults don't bother them, because they know something you don't. They know that Klingon is a sophisticated, extremely complex language that very few can master. I first came to Klingon as a linguist doing research for a book on artificial languages. My intention was to observe from a nice, distant, scientific perspective, but somehow I ended up with a little bronze pin indicating that I'd passed the first-level certification exam. The grammar offered an irresistible linguistic challenge. Klingon is difficult but not impossible, weird yet totally believable. Anyone can put on a pair of pointed ears or memorize some lines of dialogue, but learning to speak Klingon requires genuine hard work.
Most languages created for fictional worlds involve simple vocabulary substitutions, such as moodge for man in A Clockwork Orange, or meaningless streams of noise, like the high-pitched jabbering of the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi. Klingon is something altogether different. There is a logic behind it; a linguist doing field research among Klingon speakers would be able to work out the system and describe it as he would an exotic indigenous tongue. This is not surprising, considering that Klingon was created by Marc Okrand, a linguist whose dissertation was a grammar of a now-extinct Native American language.
Okrand was originally hired by the producer of Star Trek II to write dialogue in Vulcan for a scene, between Leonard Nimoy and Kirstie Alley, that had been filmed in English. His task was to create lines that could be dubbed over the actors' mouth movements in a believable way. Two years later, when the production team of Star Trek III wanted some scenes in Klingon, they called on Okrand again. This time he was not constrained by pre-existing mouth movements—the actors would be filmed speaking Klingon—but there were two other conditions that he had to take into account. The first was the existence of those few words of Klingon spoken in the first Star Trek movie (written by James Doohan, the actor who played Scotty). Second, he knew the language was supposed to be tough-sounding, befitting a warrior race. Klingons are rough, crude, loyal, violent, and honorable—a sort of Viking-Spartan-samurai motorcycle gang. They eat live worms, sleep on hard surfaces, and desire nothing more than to die in battle. So Okrand filled the language with back-of-the-throat sounds and made up a rich war vocabulary but left out social pleasantries like "Hello." (The closest translation for hello in Klingon is nuqneH —"What do you want?").
Knowing that fans would be watching closely, Okrand worked out a full grammar. He cribbed from natural languages, borrowing sounds and sentence-building rules, switching sources whenever Klingon started operating too much like any one language in particular. He ended up with something that sounds like an ungodly combination of Hindi, Arabic, Tlingit, and Yiddish and works like a mix of Japanese, Turkish, and Mohawk. The linguistic features of Klingon are not especially unusual (at least to a linguist) when considered independently, but put together, they make for one hell of an alien language.
Despite the fact that more than 250,000 copies of Okrand's Klingon dictionary have been sold, very few people know how the language really works. There are maybe 20 or 30 people who can hold their own in a live, unscripted Klingon conversation and a few hundred or so who are pretty good with written Klingon. But most Star Trek fans who buy the dictionary skip the grammatical rules that constitute the first half of the book and turn straight to the word list. They make up wedding vows, song lyrics, or insults to lob at their opponents in role-playing games, but they ignore the grammar, simply popping dictionary words into English sentences. So Star Trek discussion boards end up peppered with phrases like this: yIn nI' je chep.
That is some seriously bad Klingon. It's a string of words that's supposed to mean "Live long and prosper" but instead says something like "life ... something is long ... and ... something prospers." It's ungrammatical. (Plus, it's a Vulcan sentiment; Klingons don't say such things.)
The correct form of the phrase in Klingon would be yIn nI' DaSIQjaj 'ej bIchepjaj.
And it breaks down (word for word) like this: "Life long you-it-endure-may and you-be-prosperous-may." Or, in proper English, "May you endure a long life and may you prosper."
Klingon sentence structure is about as complex as it gets. Most people are familiar with the idea that verb endings can indicate person and number. In Spanish, the -o suffix on a verb like hablar (to speak) indicates a first-person singular subject (hablo—I speak) while the -amos suffix indicates a first-person plural subject (hablamos—we speak). But Klingon uses prefixes rather than suffixes, and instead of having six or seven of them, like most romance languages, it has 29. There are so many because they indicate not only the person and number of the subject (who is doing) but also of the object (whom it is being done to). In the "Live long and prosper" translation above, for example, the Da- on SIQ indicates a second-person subject and a third-person object ("You endure it"), and the bI- on the verb chep indicates a second-person subject and no object ("You prosper").
As if that weren't complicated enough, Klingon also has a large set of suffixes. Attached to the end of the verbs SIQ and chep is the ending -jaj, which expresses "a desire or wish on the part of the speaker that something take place in the future." Klingon has 36 verb suffixes and 26 noun suffixes that express everything from negation to causality to possession to how willing a speaker is to vouch for the accuracy of what he says. By piling on these suffixes, one after the other, you can pack a lot of meaning on to a single word in Klingon—words like nuHegh'eghrupqa'moHlaHbe'law'lI'neS, which translates roughly to: They are apparently unable to cause us to prepare to resume honorable suicide (in progress).
Just saying a word like this one requires Klingon-like discipline and fortitude. To the layman, the time commitment involved in studying this invented language may seem ridiculous—why not take up a language with practical value, one that might earn you a little respect, or at least not encourage jeers? But Klingon isn't about practicality, or status, or even about love for the original Star Trek series. It's about language for language's sake, and the joy of doing something that's not easy, without regard for worldly recognition. Hence the Klingon Hamlet, which took years to compose and which maybe 100 people can appreciate. What a piece of work is man indeed. Or as Wil'yam Shex'pir would put it, toH, chovnatlh Doj ghaH tlhIngan'e'—"A Klingon is an impressive specimen."
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theonion.com%2Fcontent%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Fonion_news1719.jpg&hash=6e078e982ef662f578bd62a8eaa42ed6465874d6)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2009, 02:27:02 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 20, 2009, 01:45:47 PM
I did go to the midnight show of all three. Three midnight shows, three cruddy mornings, three big disappointments.
I thought Revenge of the Sith was pretty good.
It was trash Tim. TRASH.
And I went because it was just a custom for us to hit the midnight shows of the big movies. See the weirdos in costume, avoid the obnoxious teenybopper crowd.
Quote from: Syt on May 20, 2009, 12:43:07 PM
Btw, my first thought at reading the topic title was the Al Yankovic song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl4fazc-hU0
Far more entertaining then the film itself.
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2009, 01:09:50 PM
Went to see it a week or so after it was released. My expectations were so low after seeing the previews + spotting a Jar Jar poster at Walmart, that it slightly exceeded my expectations. It was still a disservice to the original trilogy, of course.
Just before I saw the movie, I saw the Backstreet Boys coming out of an early screening saying it was the best movie ever made, and if you didn't go see it a bunch of times you were crazy. It actually got my hopes up, despite all the bad reviews I had read. Seeing the movie was the moment the Backstreet Boys lost all credibility with me.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 20, 2009, 04:02:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2009, 01:09:50 PM
Went to see it a week or so after it was released. My expectations were so low after seeing the previews + spotting a Jar Jar poster at Walmart, that it slightly exceeded my expectations. It was still a disservice to the original trilogy, of course.
Just before I saw the movie, I saw the Backstreet Boys coming out of an early screening saying it was the best movie ever made, and if you didn't go see it a bunch of times you were crazy. It actually got my hopes up, despite all the bad reviews I had read. Seeing the movie was the moment the Backstreet Boys lost all credibility with me.
:XD:
Quote from: alfred russel on May 20, 2009, 04:02:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2009, 01:09:50 PM
Went to see it a week or so after it was released. My expectations were so low after seeing the previews + spotting a Jar Jar poster at Walmart, that it slightly exceeded my expectations. It was still a disservice to the original trilogy, of course.
Just before I saw the movie, I saw the Backstreet Boys coming out of an early screening saying it was the best movie ever made, and if you didn't go see it a bunch of times you were crazy. It actually got my hopes up, despite all the bad reviews I had read. Seeing the movie was the moment the Backstreet Boys lost all credibility with me.
This is a joke right? Boy Bands have credibility?
I'm not saying it was good, but it was at least as good as the original three.
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2009, 04:14:09 PM
I'm not saying it was good, but it was at least as good as the original three.
Purge him!
Ep I was worst than Ep VI, and that's saying a lot.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 20, 2009, 04:20:23 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2009, 04:14:09 PM
I'm not saying it was good, but it was at least as good as the original three.
Purge him!
Flay him alive!
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2009, 04:14:09 PM
I'm not saying it was good, but it was at least as good as the original three.
Woah. You must really really hate the original three.
He's a monster. Probably loved Highlander 2.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 20, 2009, 04:05:30 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 20, 2009, 04:02:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2009, 01:09:50 PM
Went to see it a week or so after it was released. My expectations were so low after seeing the previews + spotting a Jar Jar poster at Walmart, that it slightly exceeded my expectations. It was still a disservice to the original trilogy, of course.
Just before I saw the movie, I saw the Backstreet Boys coming out of an early screening saying it was the best movie ever made, and if you didn't go see it a bunch of times you were crazy. It actually got my hopes up, despite all the bad reviews I had read. Seeing the movie was the moment the Backstreet Boys lost all credibility with me.
This is a joke right? Boy Bands have credibility?
It is a true story, but yes, I wrote the credibility part as a joke.
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2009, 04:26:04 PM
Woah. You must really really hate the original three.
I don't really care about them but they weren't that good. Story was meh and acting horrible in all of them. At least the later ones had better effects.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 20, 2009, 04:28:55 PM
He's a monster. Probably loved Highlander 2.
Say goodbye, Highlander!
Why, are you going somewhere?
I saw it the day before the midnight screenings as i had to build up and tech screen the prints at theater i was working at.
Skatalie Portman and that boy can not act their way out of a wet brown paper bag which has turned pulpish.*
* - except her little turn in Cold Mountain which was fabulous work. Her Oscar nomination for Closer is laughable.
Quote from: Habsburg on May 20, 2009, 05:10:25 PM
Skatalie Portman and that boy can not act their way out of a wet brown paper bag which has turned pulpish.*
* - except her little turn in Cold Mountain which was fabulous work. Her Oscar nomination for Closer is laughable.
she was great in Beautiful Girls. the guy was fine in Shattered Glass. Sam Jackson has been known to act. Apparently, even Ewan MacGregor keeps getting work for some reason.
I think this movie is an excellent example of a cast giving up.
Quote from: saskganesh on May 20, 2009, 06:56:10 PM
she was great in Beautiful Girls. the guy was fine in Shattered Glass. Sam Jackson has been known to act. Apparently, even Ewan MacGregor keeps getting work for some reason.
I think this movie is an excellent example of a cast giving up.
George should have stuck to story outlines and left screenplays to others (like he did with Empire and Jedi)
Quote from: Savonarola on May 20, 2009, 12:29:38 PM
Did anyone here see the midnight release of the film?
Yeah. I went with a group of about 40 people. We had a guy waiting in line overnight to hold the spot.
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2009, 07:00:50 PM
George should have stuck to story outlines and left screenplays to others (like he did with Empire and Jedi)
:yes:
I dunno. Episode I was just boring; it wasn't really good or bad. I didn't mind Episode III too much, but I make up for it with my irrational hatred of Episode II. Seeing R2-D2
fly across a factory was very nearly the moment I burned any and all pieces of Star Wars memorabilia in my possession. Episode II had no acting, no plot, stupid fan service moments, and to date, is the ONLY movie I've EVER walked out of, wishing that I could reclaim the hours of my life wasted watching that godawful piece of garbage.
And considering this includes Paul Blart: Mall Cop, that's saying a lot. ;)
Quote from: saskganesh on May 20, 2009, 06:56:10 PMI think this movie is an excellent example of a cast giving up.
It takes an Alec Guiness to make Lucas's dialogue sound good.
Quote from: frunk on May 20, 2009, 07:57:20 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on May 20, 2009, 06:56:10 PMI think this movie is an excellent example of a cast giving up.
It takes an Alec Guiness to make Lucas's dialogue sound good.
Cushing?
Quote from: Habsburg on May 20, 2009, 05:10:25 PM
Skatalie Portman and that boy can not act their way out of a wet brown paper bag which has turned pulpish.*
* - except her little turn in Cold Mountain which was fabulous work. Her Oscar nomination for Closer is laughable.
She wasn't in Cold Mountain.
I would have noticed.
Quote from: Siege on May 20, 2009, 08:08:55 PM
Quote from: Habsburg on May 20, 2009, 05:10:25 PM
Skatalie Portman and that boy can not act their way out of a wet brown paper bag which has turned pulpish.*
* - except her little turn in Cold Mountain which was fabulous work. Her Oscar nomination for Closer is laughable.
She wasn't in Cold Mountain.
I would have noticed.
You need to watch it again.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 20, 2009, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 20, 2009, 08:08:55 PM
Quote from: Habsburg on May 20, 2009, 05:10:25 PM
Skatalie Portman and that boy can not act their way out of a wet brown paper bag which has turned pulpish.*
* - except her little turn in Cold Mountain which was fabulous work. Her Oscar nomination for Closer is laughable.
She wasn't in Cold Mountain.
I would have noticed.
You need to watch it again.
What was her part?
Quote from: Siege on May 20, 2009, 08:08:55 PM
She wasn't in Cold Mountain.
I would have noticed.
She's credited about 7 down here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159365/
Quote from: Siege on May 20, 2009, 08:13:58 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 20, 2009, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 20, 2009, 08:08:55 PM
Quote from: Habsburg on May 20, 2009, 05:10:25 PM
Skatalie Portman and that boy can not act their way out of a wet brown paper bag which has turned pulpish.*
* - except her little turn in Cold Mountain which was fabulous work. Her Oscar nomination for Closer is laughable.
She wasn't in Cold Mountain.
I would have noticed.
You need to watch it again.
What was her part?
The war widow that tries to hitch up with jude law and save him from the evil yankee patrol iirc.. though I might be mixing up movies
Damn, I forgot that part.
I am a retard.
She was good in the Professional. And of course: http://www.hulu.com/watch/1404/saturday-night-live-snl-digital-short-natalie-raps (http://www.hulu.com/watch/1404/saturday-night-live-snl-digital-short-natalie-raps)
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2009, 04:54:41 PM
I don't really care about them but they weren't that good. Story was meh and acting horrible in all of them. At least the later ones had better effects.
Huh? Damn you really must prefer Highlander 2.
May the Languish be with you, padawan...
To date, I refuse to watch pirated films that are recorded using a hand-held device in a cinema. I made an exception for this one. First time I saw it I thought it was awesome. But it has aged terribly. The more I watch it, the more I hate it. Exactly the opposite of Episode 5. I hated it as a kid but now I think it is the best among the 6 films.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2009, 04:24:02 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 20, 2009, 04:20:23 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2009, 04:14:09 PM
I'm not saying it was good, but it was at least as good as the original three.
Purge him!
Flay him alive!
Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Maximus!
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2009, 04:24:02 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 20, 2009, 04:20:23 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2009, 04:14:09 PM
I'm not saying it was good, but it was at least as good as the original three.
Purge him!
Flay him alive!
That's too good for him. Jail him with Jar Jar!
The Phantom Menace was horrible, horrible beyond words... The Return of the Jedi maimed the dream, the Phantom Menace did truely kill it forever.
Zoolander is much better than Highlander. Anyone seen Outlander btw?
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2009, 03:04:56 AM
Zoolander is much better than Highlander. Anyone seen Outlander btw?
Outland is good.
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2009, 03:04:56 AM
Zoolander is much better than Highlander.
It's funnier. Sword fights not as good though.
Quote from: frunk on May 20, 2009, 07:57:20 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on May 20, 2009, 06:56:10 PMI think this movie is an excellent example of a cast giving up.
It takes an Alec Guiness to make Lucas's dialogue sound good.
he probably rewrote it as he went. just like Jar-Jar. :D
Lucas had admitted he is bad at dialogue. no clue as to why he did not hire a script docto. because of the script (and bad direction), I'm guessing the actors simply did not get into it.
Quote from: saskganesh on May 21, 2009, 11:11:56 AM
I'm guessing the actors simply did not get into it.
You could plainly see in most interviews with the actors that the undue importance of the green screen made for a poor set atmosphere and no interaction between the actors.
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 21, 2009, 02:32:13 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on May 21, 2009, 11:11:56 AM
I'm guessing the actors simply did not get into it.
You could plainly see in most interviews with the actors that the undue importance of the green screen made for a poor set atmosphere and no interaction between the actors.
interesting... I usually am only motivated to watch interviews/behind the scenes if I like a movie as I only trash movies on my own time.
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 01:52:20 AM
The Return of the Jedi maimed the dream, the Phantom Menace did truely kill it forever.
You're a fag.
Quote from: saskganesh on May 21, 2009, 11:11:56 AM
Quote from: frunk on May 20, 2009, 07:57:20 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on May 20, 2009, 06:56:10 PMI think this movie is an excellent example of a cast giving up.
It takes an Alec Guiness to make Lucas's dialogue sound good.
he probably rewrote it as he went. just like Jar-Jar. :D
Lucas had admitted he is bad at dialogue. no clue as to why he did not hire a script docto. because of the script (and bad direction), I'm guessing the actors simply did not get into it.
But he hired a script doctor for Attack of the CLones, and it was worse dialogue-wise than TPM.
was it this "Doctor"?
Hey Everybody?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4simpsons.files.wordpress.com%2F2006%2F09%2Fdr_nick.png&hash=96a39423167f7cc38e707715e66624b5e1e1ddf0)
1-800-DOCTORB
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 01:52:20 AMThe Phantom Menace was horrible, horrible beyond words...
It was so bad that I've never bothered to watch the 2nd and 3rd prequels.
Quote from: Neil on May 21, 2009, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 01:52:20 AM
The Return of the Jedi maimed the dream, the Phantom Menace did truely kill it forever.
You're a fag.
Well, I'll be damned if hating piano playing giant purple puppets, cheap fanboy service with slave princesses that should have worked with their deadly Jedi friends and, like, prepared something akin to a workable plan, evil masterminds that always leave killing their captured enemies for tomorrow, lame ass bounty hunters, burping giant sand monsters, 'Deus ex Machina' intuition of unknown sisters, hordes of little cuddly teddy bears, imperial armies of Keystone cops, cliché butt ugly evil emperors with broad malign grins that can't kill a fly in less than three hours, "fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original, heartbreaking family reconciliations in the moment of death and happy ghosts holding hands and singing kumbaya (only male ghosts, by the way, throwing some doubt on Annakin and Obi Wan sexual orientation after all... Alas for poor Amidala, first seduced, then murdered and finally forgotten) makes one a fag!
IIRC the only minutes that didn't stink belonged to the bike chase. Because there was no plot and no dialog, perhaps?
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 21, 2009, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 01:52:20 AM
The Return of the Jedi maimed the dream, the Phantom Menace did truely kill it forever.
You're a fag.
Well, I'll be damned if hating piano playing giant purple puppets, cheap fanboy service with slave princesses that should have worked with their deadly Jedi friends and, like, prepared something akin to a workable plan, evil masterminds that always leave killing their captured enemies for tomorrow, lame ass bounty hunters, burping giant sand monsters, 'Deus ex Machina' intuition of unknown sisters, hordes of little cuddly teddy bears, imperial armies of Keystone cops, cliché butt ugly evil emperors with broad malign grins that can't kill a fly in less than three hours, "fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original, heartbreaking family reconciliations in the moment of death and happy ghosts holding hands and singing kumbaya (only male ghosts, by the way, throwing some doubt on Annakin and Obi Wan sexual orientation after all... Alas for poor Amidala, first seduced, then murdered and finally forgotten) makes one a fag!
IIRC the only minutes that didn't stink belonged to the bike chase. Because there was no plot and no dialog, perhaps?
yeah, how the blue muppet could play piano with those huge short fingers amazes me constantly.
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 21, 2009, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 01:52:20 AM
The Return of the Jedi maimed the dream, the Phantom Menace did truely kill it forever.
You're a fag.
Well, I'll be damned if hating piano playing giant purple puppets, cheap fanboy service with slave princesses that should have worked with their deadly Jedi friends and, like, prepared something akin to a workable plan, evil masterminds that always leave killing their captured enemies for tomorrow, lame ass bounty hunters, burping giant sand monsters, 'Deus ex Machina' intuition of unknown sisters, hordes of little cuddly teddy bears, imperial armies of Keystone cops, cliché butt ugly evil emperors with broad malign grins that can't kill a fly in less than three hours, "fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original, heartbreaking family reconciliations in the moment of death and happy ghosts holding hands and singing kumbaya (only male ghosts, by the way, throwing some doubt on Annakin and Obi Wan sexual orientation after all... Alas for poor Amidala, first seduced, then murdered and finally forgotten) makes one a fag!
IIRC the only minutes that didn't stink belonged to the bike chase. Because there was no plot and no dialog, perhaps?
Dude, you're reading way, WAY too much into this, expecting Shakespeare or Sophokles where it isn't. That's like expecting Raiders of the Lost Arc to be a treatment of the Faustian theme before a World War 2 backdrop while examining the effects of totalitarian foreign regimes on colonial countries.
Quote from: Syt on May 22, 2009, 02:59:04 AM
Dude, you're reading way, WAY too much into this, expecting Shakespeare or Sophokles where it isn't. That's like expecting Raiders of the Lost Arc to be a treatment of the Faustian theme before a World War 2 backdrop while examining the effects of totalitarian foreign regimes on colonial countries.
Now I would like to watch that movie :D
But seriously, after 'The Empire Strikes Back' I expected a reasonably good movie that an adult could watch with his brain switched on. I didn't expect 'The Return of the Jedi' to be such a load of rotten, stinking rubbish. With the second trilogy I knew what to expect; they were bad movies with plot holes the size of Texas and so called 'acting' on a par with the latest porn hit, but I was prepared beforehand.
Even so, the midichlorians managed to astound me with their sheer stupidity (hey, the Jedi aren't a Mesianic cult, only a friendly bunch of honest-to-God Nazis) but they were quite funny, if in a twisted way.
I didn't see it until the easter after when I got the video.
Meh.
Quote from: Syt on May 22, 2009, 02:59:04 AM
Dude, you're reading way, WAY too much into this, expecting Shakespeare or Sophokles where it isn't. That's like expecting Raiders of the Lost Arc to be a treatment of the Faustian theme before a World War 2 backdrop while examining the effects of totalitarian foreign regimes on colonial countries.
I think he has become the Sith apprentice to Darth Spellus.
Quote from: Caliga on May 22, 2009, 06:48:56 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 22, 2009, 02:59:04 AM
Dude, you're reading way, WAY too much into this, expecting Shakespeare or Sophokles where it isn't. That's like expecting Raiders of the Lost Arc to be a treatment of the Faustian theme before a World War 2 backdrop while examining the effects of totalitarian foreign regimes on colonial countries.
I think he has become the Sith apprentice to Darth Spellus.
What about Bill Kristol?
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=228041&title=american-idealogues
(At 1:20)
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 21, 2009, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 01:52:20 AM
The Return of the Jedi maimed the dream, the Phantom Menace did truely kill it forever.
You're a fag.
Well, I'll be damned if hating piano playing giant purple puppets, cheap fanboy service with slave princesses that should have worked with their deadly Jedi friends and, like, prepared something akin to a workable plan, evil masterminds that always leave killing their captured enemies for tomorrow, lame ass bounty hunters, burping giant sand monsters, 'Deus ex Machina' intuition of unknown sisters, hordes of little cuddly teddy bears, imperial armies of Keystone cops, cliché butt ugly evil emperors with broad malign grins that can't kill a fly in less than three hours, "fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original, heartbreaking family reconciliations in the moment of death and happy ghosts holding hands and singing kumbaya (only male ghosts, by the way, throwing some doubt on Annakin and Obi Wan sexual orientation after all... Alas for poor Amidala, first seduced, then murdered and finally forgotten) makes one a fag!
IIRC the only minutes that didn't stink belonged to the bike chase. Because there was no plot and no dialog, perhaps?
See? There's no helping you. You're totally gay. You should probably just kill yourself today.
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
"fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original
It wasn't finished. :mellow:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 07:18:02 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
"fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original
It wasn't finished. :mellow:
"As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!"
Are you saying the Emperor is a liar? :mad:
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 07:54:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 07:18:02 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
"fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original
It wasn't finished. :mellow:
"As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!"
Are you saying the Emperor is a liar? :mad:
He's saying the weapons are online, just because it works doesn't mean it's finished. The outer later is less than half done.
Quote from: Tyr on May 22, 2009, 06:00:59 AM
I didn't see it until the easter after when I got the video.
Meh.
Does the Geordie Easter Rabbit deliver bad movies rather than eggs and chocolate? :unsure:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 07:57:15 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 07:54:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 07:18:02 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
"fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original
It wasn't finished. :mellow:
"As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!"
Are you saying the Emperor is a liar? :mad:
He's saying the weapons are online, just because it works doesn't mean it's finished. The outer later is less than half done.
Though probably just support systems were missing. Fighter bays, additional gun towers, shopping malls, fitness clubs, spas, nudie bars and the holodecks.
Though I wonder (if I may step into Clerks for a moment): where did all the contractors working on that thing live? Were they housed in the already finished parts of the station? So that there was only a skeleton military crew? Was there a big worker city on the moon of Endor, like the contractors for the Pyramids?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 07:18:02 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
"fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original
It wasn't finished. :mellow:
But it had an outlet to the nuclear reactor core in the Throne Room; that's fundamentally poor engineering.
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 07:18:02 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
"fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original
It wasn't finished. :mellow:
But it had an outlet to the nuclear reactor core in the Throne Room; that's fundamentally poor engineering.
No kidding!
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Episode I has the best lightsaber/sword duel I've ever seen.
Nearly everything else was a let down.
Quote from: viper37 on May 22, 2009, 08:07:46 AM
Episode I has the best lightsaber/sword duel I've ever seen.
Nearly everything else was a let down.
That is true, that duel with that music was great, it could not, however, save the movie from being a pile of cowshit.
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 07:18:02 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
"fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original
It wasn't finished. :mellow:
But it had an outlet to the nuclear reactor core in the Throne Room; that's fundamentally poor engineering.
Do we know that was a nuclear reactor? Who knows what those guys were using for power. We do know that the main reactor of the Death Star wasn't based on fission, fusion or antimatter annihilation.
Actually, a lot of Old Republic structures were needlessly huge and full of shafts as well. Perhaps it's something psychological, something about having infinite resources and space.
What is the deal with no handrails? OSHA needs to fine those fuckers.
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 09:40:19 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 08:02:27 AM
But it had an outlet to the nuclear reactor core in the Throne Room; that's fundamentally poor engineering.
Do we know that was a nuclear reactor? Who knows what those guys were using for power. We do know that the main reactor of the Death Star wasn't based on fission, fusion or antimatter annihilation.
Having an oulet to any sort of power generation core in the Throne Room is fundamentally poor engineering. Look at the result; it was like the o-rings of the Star Wars universe.
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 09:55:30 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 09:40:19 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 08:02:27 AM
But it had an outlet to the nuclear reactor core in the Throne Room; that's fundamentally poor engineering.
Do we know that was a nuclear reactor? Who knows what those guys were using for power. We do know that the main reactor of the Death Star wasn't based on fission, fusion or antimatter annihilation.
Having an oulet to any sort of power generation core in the Throne Room is fundamentally poor engineering. Look at the result; it was like the o-rings of the Star Wars universe.
One accident in 25 millenia isn't so bad.
Maybe they're using waste heat from the power plant to circulate the atmosphere?
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 22, 2009, 09:41:39 AM
What is the deal with no handrails? OSHA needs to fine those fuckers.
There were handrails in the throne room. Luke had Vader's arm resting on one when he was bashing away at it, right before Vader's hand was severed.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 22, 2009, 09:41:39 AM
What is the deal with no handrails? OSHA needs to fine those fuckers.
Specially with the small field of vision inside a clone/storm trooper helmet.
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 10:18:23 AM
One accident in 25 millenia isn't so bad.
The media never sees it that way. Fortunately the Empire disbanded the Senate so that the engineer who designed that didn't have to testify before them.
QuoteMaybe they're using waste heat from the power plant to circulate the atmosphere?
Without knowing the specifics of the power generation system it's difficult to say; but I would think they could have at least put a grate over it.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 22, 2009, 09:41:39 AM
What is the deal with no handrails? OSHA needs to fine those fuckers.
Budget issues.
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Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 10:22:56 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 10:18:23 AM
One accident in 25 millenia isn't so bad.
The media never sees it that way. Fortunately the Empire disbanded the Senate so that the engineer who designed that didn't have to testify before them.
We're unsure that the Senate actually had the power to compell testimony. Even in Episode 1, the Senate didn't seem to have much in the way of direct power, with most galactic affairs being handled through the bureaucrats. During a crisis, it seems that policy was to empower the Chancellor.
QuoteQuoteMaybe they're using waste heat from the power plant to circulate the atmosphere?
Without knowing the specifics of the power generation system it's difficult to say; but I would think they could have at least put a grate over it.
That would ruin the aesthetics, which are important to a galactic society. After all, what are the consequences of those open pits? Somebody could fall in and die? Who cares? There are probably several quintillion sophonts in the galaxy. Somebody could drop some equipment down there? The Empire has effectively infinite resources, as demonstrated by the sheer wastefulness of the Death Star Project itself. And yet as massive and wasteful as it was, it was trivially small next to the overall Imperial economy.
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 07:10:24 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 22, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 21, 2009, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 21, 2009, 01:52:20 AM
The Return of the Jedi maimed the dream, the Phantom Menace did truely kill it forever.
You're a fag.
Well, I'll be damned if hating piano playing giant purple puppets, cheap fanboy service with slave princesses that should have worked with their deadly Jedi friends and, like, prepared something akin to a workable plan, evil masterminds that always leave killing their captured enemies for tomorrow, lame ass bounty hunters, burping giant sand monsters, 'Deus ex Machina' intuition of unknown sisters, hordes of little cuddly teddy bears, imperial armies of Keystone cops, cliché butt ugly evil emperors with broad malign grins that can't kill a fly in less than three hours, "fully functioning space stations" definitely NOT improved over the original, heartbreaking family reconciliations in the moment of death and happy ghosts holding hands and singing kumbaya (only male ghosts, by the way, throwing some doubt on Annakin and Obi Wan sexual orientation after all... Alas for poor Amidala, first seduced, then murdered and finally forgotten) makes one a fag!
IIRC the only minutes that didn't stink belonged to the bike chase. Because there was no plot and no dialog, perhaps?
See? There's no helping you. You're totally gay. You should probably just kill yourself today.
You should put that into Haiku format, you've the beginning of a good poem there.
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 10:36:20 AM
That would ruin the aesthetics, which are important to a galactic society. After all, what are the consequences of those open pits? Somebody could fall in and die? Who cares? There are probably several quintillion sophonts in the galaxy. Somebody could drop some equipment down there? The Empire has effectively infinite resources, as demonstrated by the sheer wastefulness of the Death Star Project itself. And yet as massive and wasteful as it was, it was trivially small next to the overall Imperial economy.
In that case they should have done a simple trom l'oeil painting of a reactor core shaft in the Emperor's throne room; the way the flat surface of Sant'Ignazio in Rome is painted to look like it has a dome. That would have provided aesthetic appeal and safety. While there might be sound technical reasons for having massive shafts into the power generation core; putting them in the Emperor's throne room is just asking for trouble given the VIPs he was likely to entertain there.
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 10:46:19 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 10:36:20 AM
That would ruin the aesthetics, which are important to a galactic society. After all, what are the consequences of those open pits? Somebody could fall in and die? Who cares? There are probably several quintillion sophonts in the galaxy. Somebody could drop some equipment down there? The Empire has effectively infinite resources, as demonstrated by the sheer wastefulness of the Death Star Project itself. And yet as massive and wasteful as it was, it was trivially small next to the overall Imperial economy.
In that case they should have done a simple trom l'oeil painting of a reactor core shaft in the Emperor's throne room; the way the flat surface of Sant'Ignazio in Rome is painted to look like it has a dome. That would have provided aesthetic appeal and safety. While there might be sound technical reasons for having massive shafts into the power generation core; putting them in the Emperor's throne room is just asking for trouble given the VIPs he was likely to entertain there.
You shoudl repost your Star Wars fanfiction.
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 10:46:19 AM
While there might be sound technical reasons for having massive shafts into the power generation core; putting them in the Emperor's throne room is just asking for trouble given the VIPs he was likely to entertain there.
maybe he liked to throw people into the pits for VIP kicks?
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 10:46:19 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 10:36:20 AM
That would ruin the aesthetics, which are important to a galactic society. After all, what are the consequences of those open pits? Somebody could fall in and die? Who cares? There are probably several quintillion sophonts in the galaxy. Somebody could drop some equipment down there? The Empire has effectively infinite resources, as demonstrated by the sheer wastefulness of the Death Star Project itself. And yet as massive and wasteful as it was, it was trivially small next to the overall Imperial economy.
In that case they should have done a simple trom l'oeil painting of a reactor core shaft in the Emperor's throne room; the way the flat surface of Sant'Ignazio in Rome is painted to look like it has a dome. That would have provided aesthetic appeal and safety. While there might be sound technical reasons for having massive shafts into the power generation core; putting them in the Emperor's throne room is just asking for trouble given the VIPs he was likely to entertain there.
See, but that would be faking it. You're ignoring the psychological aspect, which can be just as important as any practical concerns. The Emperor was the most powerful man in the universe, politically, spiritually and physically. He had no real concerns for his own safety, and no concern for that of others.
Most importantly of all, you've forgotten the implications of artificial gravity and inertial dampening. Now, the Death Star would have been massive enough to generate it's own gravity, that would clearly be less than ideal in a structure that was intended to be at least partially habitable all through its volume. What would stop the Empire from installing safety systems that would slow or halt a fall? After all, we know that Bespin had such a system, as illustrated by Luke surviving a fall of at least a kilometer without injury. Why not use them on the Death Star? Clearly they hadn't been installed yet, but then again the Death Star wasn't supposed to be in use by the Emperor yet, and making the weapon and power systems operational took priority in order to accomplish the Emperor's plan.
And normally, the Emperor would be able to slow his fall with the force.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 11:38:06 AM
And normally, the Emperor would be able to slow his fall with the force.
I have my doubts. After all, if he could, why didn't he?
Although we've seen Jedi engage in great feats of leaping, I don't recall seeing levitation or flight from them. They can move other objects, but they seem to have trouble moving themselves without an object, whether the ground, a plank or a handhold, to exert their force on.
Quote from: saskganesh on May 22, 2009, 11:33:54 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 10:46:19 AM
While there might be sound technical reasons for having massive shafts into the power generation core; putting them in the Emperor's throne room is just asking for trouble given the VIPs he was likely to entertain there.
maybe he liked to throw people into the pits for VIP kicks?
That would just gum everything up wouldn't it?
I have a massive shaft in my office.
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 08:02:27 AM
But it had an outlet to the nuclear reactor core in the Throne Room; that's fundamentally poor engineering.
Throwing enemies and surplus thralls into the nuclear reactor core from one's Throne Room is the principal fringe benefit of the imperial throne. :contract:
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 11:36:48 AM
See, but that would be faking it. You're ignoring the psychological aspect, which can be just as important as any practical concerns. The Emperor was the most powerful man in the universe, politically, spiritually and physically. He had no real concerns for his own safety, and no concern for that of others.
Obviously he should have. His over confidence was his weakness. :(
QuoteMost importantly of all, you've forgotten the implications of artificial gravity and inertial dampening. Now, the Death Star would have been massive enough to generate it's own gravity, that would clearly be less than ideal in a structure that was intended to be at least partially habitable all through its volume. What would stop the Empire from installing safety systems that would slow or halt a fall? After all, we know that Bespin had such a system, as illustrated by Luke surviving a fall of at least a kilometer without injury. Why not use them on the Death Star? Clearly they hadn't been installed yet, but then again the Death Star wasn't supposed to be in use by the Emperor yet, and making the weapon and power systems operational took priority in order to accomplish the Emperor's plan.
You are correct; I was not aware such technologies existed. That would explain why there isn't an enormous wind force in th Emperor's throne room. There should be a massive pressure difference between the core of the Death Star and the outer shell where the throne room is located and such a massive shaft would allow for a huge transfer of air. Artificial gravity would prevent such a pressure difference from occuring; but if there is artificial gravity in use anywhere on the Death Star why did the Emperor fall in a straight line rather than a parabolic trajectory?
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 12:04:02 PM
Obviously he should have. His over confidence was his weakness. :(
He forgot that family was an important motivator for the Dark Lord of the Sith.
QuoteQuoteMost importantly of all, you've forgotten the implications of artificial gravity and inertial dampening. Now, the Death Star would have been massive enough to generate it's own gravity, that would clearly be less than ideal in a structure that was intended to be at least partially habitable all through its volume. What would stop the Empire from installing safety systems that would slow or halt a fall? After all, we know that Bespin had such a system, as illustrated by Luke surviving a fall of at least a kilometer without injury. Why not use them on the Death Star? Clearly they hadn't been installed yet, but then again the Death Star wasn't supposed to be in use by the Emperor yet, and making the weapon and power systems operational took priority in order to accomplish the Emperor's plan.
You are correct; I was not aware such technologies existed. That would explain why there isn't an enormous wind force in th Emperor's throne room. There should be a massive pressure difference between the core of the Death Star and the outer shell where the throne room is located and such a massive shaft would allow for a huge transfer of air. Artificial gravity would prevent such a pressure difference from occuring; but if there is artificial gravity in use anywhere on the Death Star why did the Emperor fall in a straight line rather than a parabolic trajectory?
Personally, I don't think that was the actual core of the Death Star down there, but rather a smaller, subsidiary reactor, or perhaps some other device. After all, the Emperor only fell for five seconds or so, which means there's no way that he could have fallen the 480 km to the centre of the Death Star. It was hard to judge the height of his throne room tower, but perhaps to the base of that.
As for the Emperor's fall, it would be hard to say how artificial gravity would interfere without knowing more about how the technology operates, and on what principles. It seems to operate only on specific planes, so that a human can walk upright across a deck at a comfortable 9.81 m/s
2, but this same artificial gravity generator has no effect on space junk in free fall, as demonstrated by the Avenger dumping it's garbage in Empire Strikes Back.
Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2009, 11:56:14 AM
I have a massive shaft in my office.
Rubber shafts don't count.
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 11:44:10 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 11:38:06 AM
And normally, the Emperor would be able to slow his fall with the force.
I have my doubts. After all, if he could, why didn't he?
Although we've seen Jedi engage in great feats of leaping, I don't recall seeing levitation or flight from them. They can move other objects, but they seem to have trouble moving themselves without an object, whether the ground, a plank or a handhold, to exert their force on.
When Vader picked him up didn't the force lighting form some kind of feedback loop and fry the Emperor as well?
Even if it did not, how do we know he didn't slow down and survive the fall? He could have been killed when the Station blew up.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 12:51:56 PM
When Vader picked him up didn't the force lighting form some kind of feedback loop and fry the Emperor as well?
It didn't seem to. It seemed as if Vader was fried, while the Emperor didn't seem to suffer any ill effects. After all, he was able to continue generating lightning, which clearly took some exertion and conscious effort on his part.
QuoteEven if it did not, how do we know he didn't slow down and survive the fall? He could have been killed when the Station blew up.
Generally speaking, that explosion that happened after the Emperor's scream stopped is generally seen as an indication that the Emperor had died. The explosion could be from the power reactor that the Emperor was thrown into, or it could be all the evil power in the Emperor's body being released by his death.
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 01:01:07 PM
it could be all the evil power in the Emperor's body being released by his death.
I always thought this was the case.
Quote from: Caliga on May 22, 2009, 01:18:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 22, 2009, 01:16:16 PMI always thought this was the case.
Same.
It seems that many other people felt that way, since powerful Dark Jedi killed in the derivative works often show a similar effect.
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 22, 2009, 01:18:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 22, 2009, 01:16:16 PMI always thought this was the case.
Same.
It seems that many other people felt that way, since powerful Dark Jedi killed in the derivative works often show a similar effect.
There was no similar effect at the death of Darth Maul or Count Dooku though.
Why would the death of a Jedi be exothermic?
Quote from: Barrister on May 22, 2009, 01:46:18 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 22, 2009, 01:18:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 22, 2009, 01:16:16 PMI always thought this was the case.
Same.
It seems that many other people felt that way, since powerful Dark Jedi killed in the derivative works often show a similar effect.
There was no similar effect at the death of Darth Maul or Count Dooku though.
That's because they sucked both as villains and as fallen Jedi.
Quote from: Barrister on May 22, 2009, 01:46:18 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 22, 2009, 01:18:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 22, 2009, 01:16:16 PMI always thought this was the case.
Same.
It seems that many other people felt that way, since powerful Dark Jedi killed in the derivative works often show a similar effect.
There was no similar effect at the death of Darth Maul or Count Dooku though.
True, but neither of them were in the Emperor's class. Maul was a thug with a lightsabre and although Dooku was powerful, he was notably less so than the Emperor of twenty years ago.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 22, 2009, 11:13:53 AM
You shoudl repost your Star Wars fanfiction.
I've lost "My Dinner with Anakin," but here is Darth Vader, Days of being wild:
QuoteJar Jar Binks stood over a series of bubbling vats on is stove. The subtle smell of spices from his home world of Naboo filled the kitchen. He missed Naboo. Coruscant was a big, exciting planet, but he longed for the simple life of the Gungan cities. That is why he made dishes like Nabooian gumbo to remind him of his home. His reverie was broken by the doorbell ring. Jar Jar sighed, it was probably someone selling subscriptions to the Senatorial Record again.
The door slid open and before Jar Jar stood a huge menacing figure. He was nearly as tall as Jar Jar and was dressed entirely in black, including a long black cape and a black helmet with an eerie black mask complete with lidless eyes and a grate where the mouth should be."
"Oh noes!" Jar Jar shrieked, "Is de debbul. Meesa sorry for all de bad tings meesa done, muy muy. Exsqueeze me, Exsqueeze me."
"Calm down Jar Jar," the voice boomed.
"Oh noes, youssa knows my name. Meesa time is up, meesa is dead."
"Jar Jar, you are not dead."
"Meesa not? Is yousa gonna try to get meesa to sell my soul?"
"Jar Jar, I am not the devil. I am Anakin Skywalker."
"Yousa Ani? But why meesa old friend Ani dress up like de debbul an scarsa Jar Jar, muy muy?"
"I was horribly disfigured, Jar Jar. This suit allows me to live."
"Oh noes, meesa so sorry, ani. Yousa need something?"
That is why I have come. The Emperor fired me and I'm on disability. Could I stay with you until I get back on my feet?"
"Youssa bet, Ani. Jar Jar remembers heesa old friends."
Jar Jar did remember his old friend. He let him stay in his apartment as he went to work. Day upon day Jar Jar went to his job in the imperial senate and listened to the Emperor's ever increasing laws. The Senate had less to do as Emperor Palpatine took over the daily roles of the Senate. This delighted Jar Jar immensely, as those issues had always greatly confused him. They now had other important business to discuss, whether the Emperor's birthday should be a Galactic holiday, whether to build an Imperial peace garden on Alderaan or Coruscant, and what was to be the Galactic Empire's official march. These issues also greatly confused Jar Jar, and he was required to rely on his aides heavily.
One day as Jar Jar was leaving his chambers, he bumped into a cloaked and hooded figure in the hall.
"Exsqueeze me!" Jar Jar said with baffled alarm.
"Oh no, Jar Jar, there's no reason to be so formal," Emperor Palpatine pulled his hood back.
"Oh noes, is de Emperor! Meesa sorry for what meesa did!"
"You have not done anything wrong, Jar Jar," the Emperor reassured him. "I merely came to talk with you."
"With meesa? Whats do you want Emperor Palpatine?"
"Please, Jar Jar, we have known each other for so long, just call me Darth Sidious."
"Okey-day, Darth Sidious."
"Jar Jar," the emperor smiled benevolently, though his benevolence seemed a mask, "I have heard rumors that you have a new roommate."
"Yessa, Ani Skywalker, heesa lives with meesa now."
"I am delighted to hear that. Tell me, how is he?"
"Good, heesa sit on de couch all day and drink beer and watches wrestling on television. Meesa wish meesa could do that."
"Oh Jar Jar," the Emperor sighed wistfully, "It doesn't sound like he's doing well at all. Does he pay rent?"
"Oh noes, meesa couldn't ask meesa old friend to pay."
"Does he clean the apartment?"
"Oh no, heesa too busy watching wrestling."
"It doesn't sound like he's busy at all; and I had such hopes for Anikan."
As Jar Jar returned home that night he saw Darth Vader at his usual spot on the couch surrounded by empty beer cans. He had a can of Nabooian Genera-Brew in his left hand and the remote in his right.
"Meesa goodness Darth, don't you ever pick up?"
"I will once wrestling is over."
"Eesa all fake, how can you watch it?"
"It is remarkable. The grace, the athleticism, these men must be strong in the force. They remind me of me before... well you know."
Jar Jar was sorry he had yelled at his friend. He knew Darth Vader really did need his help.
"Yousa will never believe who meesa saw today."
"Who, Jar Jar?"
"Oh noes yousa supposed to guess."
"The Coruscant Idol."
"No guess again."
"I do not want to guess again, Jar Jar, just tell me."
"Oh, yousa no fun. I saw de Emperor!"
Darth Vader continued to breathe his slow mechanical way. Jar Jar had expected a reaction of some sort, yet, though he stared at Darth Vader a long time he just sat still, unblinking eyes looking out.
"Heesa asked about you," Jar Jar broke the silence.
"Did you tell him I am a broken man."
"Oh noes, meesa told him that yousa sit around and drink beer all day long."
"I see, and what did he say?"
"Heesa seemed sad. That made Jar Jar feel bad, muy muy."
Darth crumpled the empty beer can in his hand and lobbed it into the waste paper basket. "I sense a disturbance in the force, as if you have brought home another case of beer."
"Yousa right, that force be amazing," replied Jar Jar.
Yet in time their relationship became strained and Jar Jar became more resentful of Darth Vader's sloth. He still brought home a case of beer every night, which Anikan readily consumed, but the two hardly spoke. Jar Jar tried to encourage him to find a job, gently at first and Darth Vader would promise to get one. Sometimes he'd even take out the help wanted section of the Coruscant Weekly, but that was about as far as it went.
One day Jar Jar returned home from the senate in a fury. He had wanted to make the Wookie holiday, "Life Day," a Galactic Holiday, but the vote had failed. He stormed into his apartment and his rage grew as he saw Darth Vader just sitting on the couch surrounded by a pile of beer cans.
"Whatsa yousa doing?"
"I am watching Intergalactic Championship Wrestling."
"That's all yousa ever do, yousa bum."
"I am not a bum," Darth stood up, "I am differently abled, you see differently abled."
"Meesa see yousa walk around and yousa can use your hands to open beer cans so meesa thinks yousa can get a job ant Burger Comet."
"I was a Jedi; I was on the council..."
"Well yousa ain't no more. Yousa is de laziest Sith Lord meesa ever seen."
Jar Jar felt a hideous sensation, as if two hands were wrapped around his throat. Darth Vader stretched out his arms and watched Jar Jar crumple to the floor with a sickening thud. His greenish flesh dulled to grey and his long tongue sprawled out on the floor."
Vader walked over to the refrigerator and popped open another brew. The neighbors must have heard the ruckus. In a few minutes the imperial storm troopers would arrive. Every minute seemed like an eternity. He slowly savored his last Nabooian Genera-Brew. He felt his veins turn to ice when he heard a soft knock upon the door.
He got up slowly, opened the door, and saw the shriveled figure of the Emperor. "My master," Darth cried.
"Darth Vader, how long it has been. I felt a disturbance in the force."
"Yes, I killed Jar Jar Binks."
"Good, your hate has made you strong."
"It has?"
"Oh yes, put down that beer and help me bring order to the Galaxy."
Darth Vader did feel strong, stronger than ever. He put down the beer and followed taking one last look at Jar Jar lying sprawled upon the ground.
"Leave him. I'll have a squadron of storm troopers take care of this." The pair walked out.
You lost dinner with Anakin? :weep:
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 22, 2009, 01:54:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 22, 2009, 01:46:18 PM
There was no similar effect at the death of Darth Maul or Count Dooku though.
That's because they sucked both as villains and as fallen Jedi.
:mad: I liked Dooku a lot. I think he had a legitimate beef with the Republic and the Jedi Order and was justified in doing some of the things he did. Becoming a toady of Palpatine was not one of his better moves though.
Quote from: Judas Iscariot on May 23, 2009, 01:35:10 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 22, 2009, 01:54:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 22, 2009, 01:46:18 PM
There was no similar effect at the death of Darth Maul or Count Dooku though.
That's because they sucked both as villains and as fallen Jedi.
:mad: I liked Dooku a lot. I think he had a legitimate beef with the Republic and the Jedi Order and was justified in doing some of the things he did. Becoming a toady of Palpatine was not one of his better moves though.
What beef was that? Rib eye level beef or was it choice flank steak?
Ha? :mellow:
Quote from: Judas Iscariot on May 23, 2009, 01:35:10 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 22, 2009, 01:54:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 22, 2009, 01:46:18 PM
There was no similar effect at the death of Darth Maul or Count Dooku though.
That's because they sucked both as villains and as fallen Jedi.
:mad: I liked Dooku a lot. I think he had a legitimate beef with the Republic and the Jedi Order and was justified in doing some of the things he did. Becoming a toady of Palpatine was not one of his better moves though.
But what was the timeline there? Did he actually have a beef with the Republic, or did he only become involved with Seperatism after becoming a Sith Lord?
It is very hard to tell Neil and Timmay posts apart in this thread, except by carefully checking the poster name. :P
Quote from: Neil on May 24, 2009, 02:07:52 PM
But what was the timeline there? Did he actually have a beef with the Republic, or did he only become involved with Seperatism after becoming a Sith Lord?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dooku
QuoteAfter the battles of Galidraan and Baltizaar, Dooku became increasingly withdrawn from the Jedi Order. He refused to accept any more missions from the Jedi Council[18] and became concerned about prophecies he felt were coming true about dark times unfolding across the galaxy. While he discussed his concerns with many of the Order's most prominent Jedi Masters, his friend Sifo-Dyas was his closest confidant.[20]
Dooku's growing disenchantment with the Jedi way was sensed by Senator Palpatine, who had been watching Dooku for some time and had plans that required someone with Dooku's reputation, skills, and financial resources. Palpatine was secretly the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, and even before the Battle of Naboo in 32 BBY he had held several meetings with Dooku to feel out his opinions and cultivate him as an ally. Dooku's behavior and beliefs as a Jedi had previously been within the scope of Jedi orthodoxy.[1] However, Dooku flirted with the belief that the dark side of the Force could be called upon without personal corruption as his discontent with the Jedi Order grew.[21]
Dooku made several public condemnations of the Senate after the death of his former Padawan Qui-Gon Jinn in a duel with the Sith Lord Darth Maul. This Zabrak was the apprentice of Darth Sidious, raised as a weapon to combat the Jedi Order. Maul did not survive his victory, as Jinn's apprentice Obi-Wan Kenobi slew the Sith Lord with Jinn's own lightsaber.[3] Shortly thereafter, Dooku resigned from the Jedi Order, retired to Serenno, and claimed his family title of Count. He neither gave a reason for his decision to leave the Jedi in his public announcement nor did he provide one when summoned before the Jedi Council to explain his actions.[1]
Dooku's abrupt departure surprised and disturbed the Jedi Order. As a Jedi Master who had voluntarily resigned his commission, Dooku became part of the group later known as the Lost Twenty. In over two thousand years, only nineteen other Jedi Masters had walked away from the Order, and among those Dooku was considered the most bitter loss.[22] A bronzium bust of Dooku was created to join the other sculptures of the Lost Twenty in the Jedi Archives.[23]
Not long after he had left the order, he contacted his old friend Argyus, who was now a Captain in the Senate Guard. Argyus agreed to work for Dooku in secret.[17]
Dooku's disillusionment with the Senate and the Jedi were no secret to Palpatine, and Dooku was likely partially under Palpatine's influence even before the death of Qui-Gon Jinn. However, Dooku was not yet a Sith, nor was he aware that Palpatine's hidden identity was Darth Sidious. After the Battle of Naboo, Dooku gave some thought to hunting down the hidden second Sith, but concluded that even eliminating both Sith would not halt what he felt was the inevitable advance of the dark side.[20]
Shortly thereafter, Dooku was approached directly by Darth Sidious. They had a long discussion, and Dooku found that Palpatine's goals were not dissimilar to his own.[20] Despite the recent death of Dooku's apprentice Qui-Gon Jinn at the hands of Darth Maul, Darth Sidious found it surprisingly easy to convince Dooku to ally with the Sith. After seventy years in the Jedi Order, Dooku abandoned his friends and the Jedi way for the dark side of the Force.[1]
Under the tutelage of Sidious, Dooku was renamed Darth Tyranus and became a Dark Lord of the Sith. With his family holdings on Serenno, he had access to vast reserves of wealth that he used in the service of his new Master. Tyranus was soon fully enmeshed in Sidious's schemes. Shortly after Dooku left the Order, Sifo-Dyas secretly ordered a clone army from the planet Kamino, claiming the army was for the Jedi and the Republic. Sidious informed Dooku of this, and told him to eliminate his friend and gain control over the army.[20]
Dooku obeyed, murdering the Jedi Master and moving his body to storage on Serenno. He then paid for Sifo-Dyas's clone army under the name of Tyranus.[20] After the death of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku successfully erased Kamino, Dromund,[1] Dagobah, and thirty-five other star systems from the Jedi Archives, despite no longer being a Jedi himself.[24] Additionally, Dooku stole information about secret Jedi hyperspace routes through the Deep Core region in the center of the galaxy.[20]
Cuts out some motivation, but a good summary.
Quote from: Savonarola on May 23, 2009, 11:48:14 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 22, 2009, 11:13:53 AM
You shoudl repost your Star Wars fanfiction.
I've lost "My Dinner with Anakin," but here is Darth Vader, Days of being wild:
:lmfao:
Easily the best fan-fic I've ever read. Not that this is saying much, mind you ...
Bronzium? Was that named after Charles Bronson?
Quote from: Razgovory on May 25, 2009, 04:55:29 PM
Bronzium? Was that named after Charles Bronson?
Then it would be named Bronsonium.
So Dooku got pissy with the Jedi and decided to start vast wars and murdering people. That isn't really cool. Just bitchy.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 25, 2009, 05:10:39 PM
So Dooku got pissy with the Jedi and decided to start vast wars and murdering people. That isn't really cool. Just bitchy.
Dooku, angry that the Jedi was the gestapo of the republic, fights for freedom.
Quote from: Neil on May 25, 2009, 04:58:26 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 25, 2009, 04:55:29 PM
Bronzium? Was that named after Charles Bronson?
Then it would be named Bronsonium.
Yeah, I like it better that way.
Quote from: Malthus on May 25, 2009, 04:44:21 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on May 23, 2009, 11:48:14 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 22, 2009, 11:13:53 AM
You shoudl repost your Star Wars fanfiction.
I've lost "My Dinner with Anakin," but here is Darth Vader, Days of being wild:
:lmfao:
Easily the best fan-fic I've ever read. Not that this is saying much, mind you ...
Thanks, I think, :unsure:
My personal favorite is Harry Potter and the Internship of Aestas Estas:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3954402/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Internship_of_Aestas_Estas (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3954402/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Internship_of_Aestas_Estas)
I wrote this right after I witnessed three major Harry Potter events. I was in Ann Arbor the night the last Harry Potter was released; a number of our less well read posters made the case that all the Harry Potter books would become part of the canon of western literature; and JK Rowling compared herself to Charles Dickens. That gave me more motivation than usual. :)
Quote from: Savonarola on May 25, 2009, 09:06:12 PM
I wrote this right after I witnessed three major Harry Potter events. I was in Ann Arbor the night the last Harry Potter was released; a number of our less well read posters made the case that all the Harry Potter books would become part of the canon of western literature; and JK Rowling compared herself to Charles Dickens. That gave me more motivation than usual. :)
Well, to be fair she's a better read than unabridged Dickens.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 25, 2009, 10:11:39 PM
Well, to be fair she's a better read than unabridged Dickens.
So? Most people like Twinkies better than broccoli but that doesn't make them better for you. :)
Anyway, I believe I read an unabridged version of David Copperfield and I liked it just fine.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 25, 2009, 10:11:39 PM
Well, to be fair she's a better read than unabridged Dickens.
:lmfao: To some, no doubt this is true, but it must be a terrible thing to be so culturally bankrupt as to believe it for one's self.
Do people voluntarily read abridged versions? I've only read them when I was tricked into thinking it was the full thing. The once exception was Norwich's history of Byzantium and that was only because the abridged version was the only one I could get my hands on.
I dislike abridged versions of anything.
I've read abridged editions of Gibbons, Frazier, and Dickens. the last for school, so fair is fair.
My perception may be skewed by the fact the last Dickens I tried to read(and only one since school) was Bleak House.
I don't get the fascination with Dickens. His characters are so one-dimensional and boring.
Ok this guy is bad...this guy is good...here is the bad woman...here is the good woman
I mean it is tiresome there are pretty much no shades of gray anywhere.
Q - How do you know she is a witch?
A - Bill abridged out of her!
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:39:07 AM
I don't get the fascination with Dickens. His characters are so one-dimensional and boring.
Ok this guy is bad...this guy is good...here is the bad woman...here is the good woman
I mean it is tiresome there are pretty much no shades of gray anywhere.
That is an obvious mischaracterization of Dickens. For instance in Great Expectations Pip is a snob, Estella is capricious and cruel, Miss Havisham is a crank, Magwitch threatens Pip; yet none of them are bad people. They have believeable motivations for their behavior and attitudes.
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:39:07 AM
I don't get the fascination with Dickens. His characters are so one-dimensional and boring.
Ok this guy is bad...this guy is good...here is the bad woman...here is the good woman
I mean it is tiresome there are pretty much no shades of gray anywhere.
I am assuming that you have only read the abridged versions (aka the comic books)? Because Dickens characters are
anything but one-dimensional and boring! His characters are what he has been known for for over fifteen decades.
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:39:07 AM
I don't get the fascination with Dickens. His characters are so one-dimensional and boring.
:boggle:
Quote from: Savonarola on May 29, 2009, 10:36:38 AM
That is an obvious mischaracterization of Dickens. For instance in Great Expectations Pip is a snob, Estella is capricious and cruel, Miss Havisham is a crank, Magwitch threatens Pip; yet none of them are bad people. They have believeable motivations for their behavior and attitudes.
Exactly. How someone could not call Estella morally ambiguous is impossible to imagine, except through sheer ignorance. Yes, her behavior was cruel at tiimes, but kind at other times, and she had been brought up to wreak revenge on mankind, so who was the "real" Estella anyway?
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:39:07 AM
I don't get the fascination with Dickens. His characters are so one-dimensional and boring.
Ok this guy is bad...this guy is good...here is the bad woman...here is the good woman
I mean it is tiresome there are pretty much no shades of gray anywhere.
Dickens was really fun with plots.
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:39:07 AM
I don't get the fascination with Dickens. His characters are so one-dimensional and boring.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. I believe there's a big division among his fans between early Dickens and late Dickens. The early novels I think have more one-dimensional characters, the plot's more episodic and less sweeping, but it's also terrific fun and some of the characters are his most memorable. Late Dickens is, I believe, more serious, the plots are more integrated and coherent and the characters more complex. I think that David Copperfield's seen as the sort of pivot between the two. You still have some of the episodic-ness and the remarkable characters (Mr Micawber, Uriah Heep and so on) but there's also a strong narrative drive and a plot that hangs together pretty well.
Though I've not read enough to know the truth of that it's something I read in the introduction to the Penguin David Copperfield. I've only read A Tale of Two Cities and David Copperfield so I know nothing of early Dickens.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 29, 2009, 11:30:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:39:07 AM
I don't get the fascination with Dickens. His characters are so one-dimensional and boring.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. I believe there's a big division among his fans between early Dickens and late Dickens. The early novels I think have more one-dimensional characters, the plot's more episodic and less sweeping, but it's also terrific fun and some of the characters are his most memorable. Late Dickens is, I believe, more serious, the plots are more integrated and coherent and the characters more complex. I think that David Copperfield's seen as the sort of pivot between the two. You still have some of the episodic-ness and the remarkable characters (Mr Micawber, Uriah Heep and so on) but there's also a strong narrative drive and a plot that hangs together pretty well.
Though I've not read enough to know the truth of that it's something I read in the introduction to the Penguin David Copperfield. I've only read A Tale of Two Cities and David Copperfield so I know nothing of early Dickens.
This is what I like about Sheilbh. He's knowledgeable and thoughtful about things that I've given very little thought to.
Quote from: Neil on May 30, 2009, 09:51:33 AM
This is what I like about Sheilbh. He's knowledgeable and thoughtful about things that I've given very little thought to.
:lol:
I think he points out rightly that if you read the introduction to the Penguin edition of David Copperfield, you can have the same knowledge.