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A Long, Long Time Ago...

Started by Savonarola, May 20, 2009, 12:29:38 PM

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Neil

Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 10:46:19 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 10:36:20 AM
That would ruin the aesthetics, which are important to a galactic society.  After all, what are the consequences of those open pits?  Somebody could fall in and die?  Who cares?  There are probably several quintillion sophonts in the galaxy.  Somebody could drop some equipment down there?  The Empire has effectively infinite resources, as demonstrated by the sheer wastefulness of the Death Star Project itself.  And yet as massive and wasteful as it was, it was trivially small next to the overall Imperial economy.

In that case they should have done a simple trom l'oeil painting of a reactor core shaft in the Emperor's throne room; the way the flat surface of Sant'Ignazio in Rome is painted to look like it has a dome.  That would have provided aesthetic appeal and safety.  While there might be sound technical reasons for having massive shafts into the power generation core; putting them in the Emperor's throne room is just asking for trouble given the VIPs he was likely to entertain there.
See, but that would be faking it.  You're ignoring the psychological aspect, which can be just as important as any practical concerns.  The Emperor was the most powerful man in the universe, politically, spiritually and physically.  He had no real concerns for his own safety, and no concern for that of others.

Most importantly of all, you've forgotten the implications of artificial gravity and inertial dampening.  Now, the Death Star would have been massive enough to generate it's own gravity, that would clearly be less than ideal in a structure that was intended to be at least partially habitable all through its volume.  What would stop the Empire from installing safety systems that would slow or halt a fall?  After all, we know that Bespin had such a system, as illustrated by Luke surviving a fall of at least a kilometer without injury.  Why not use them on the Death Star?  Clearly they hadn't been installed yet, but then again the Death Star wasn't supposed to be in use by the Emperor yet, and making the weapon and power systems operational took priority in order to accomplish the Emperor's plan.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

jimmy olsen

And normally, the Emperor would be able to slow his fall with the force.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Neil

Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 11:38:06 AM
And normally, the Emperor would be able to slow his fall with the force.
I have my doubts.  After all, if he could, why didn't he?

Although we've seen Jedi engage in great feats of leaping, I don't recall seeing levitation or flight from them.  They can move other objects, but they seem to have trouble moving themselves without an object, whether the ground, a plank or a handhold, to exert their force on.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Razgovory

Quote from: saskganesh on May 22, 2009, 11:33:54 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 10:46:19 AM
While there might be sound technical reasons for having massive shafts into the power generation core; putting them in the Emperor's throne room is just asking for trouble given the VIPs he was likely to entertain there.

maybe he liked to throw people into the pits for VIP kicks?

That would just gum everything up wouldn't it?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Brain

I have a massive shaft in my office.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 08:02:27 AM
But it had an outlet to the nuclear reactor core in the Throne Room; that's fundamentally poor engineering.

Throwing enemies and surplus thralls into the nuclear reactor core from one's Throne Room is the principal fringe benefit of the imperial throne.   :contract:
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Savonarola

Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 11:36:48 AM
See, but that would be faking it.  You're ignoring the psychological aspect, which can be just as important as any practical concerns.  The Emperor was the most powerful man in the universe, politically, spiritually and physically.  He had no real concerns for his own safety, and no concern for that of others.

Obviously he should have.  His over confidence was his weakness.   :(



QuoteMost importantly of all, you've forgotten the implications of artificial gravity and inertial dampening.  Now, the Death Star would have been massive enough to generate it's own gravity, that would clearly be less than ideal in a structure that was intended to be at least partially habitable all through its volume.  What would stop the Empire from installing safety systems that would slow or halt a fall?  After all, we know that Bespin had such a system, as illustrated by Luke surviving a fall of at least a kilometer without injury.  Why not use them on the Death Star?  Clearly they hadn't been installed yet, but then again the Death Star wasn't supposed to be in use by the Emperor yet, and making the weapon and power systems operational took priority in order to accomplish the Emperor's plan.

You are correct; I was not aware such technologies existed.  That would explain why there isn't an enormous wind force in th Emperor's throne room.  There should be a massive pressure difference between the core of the Death Star and the outer shell where the throne room is located and such a massive shaft would allow for a huge transfer of air.  Artificial gravity would prevent such a pressure difference from occuring; but if there is artificial gravity in use anywhere on the Death Star why did the Emperor fall in a straight line rather than a parabolic trajectory?
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock

Neil

Quote from: Savonarola on May 22, 2009, 12:04:02 PM
Obviously he should have.  His over confidence was his weakness.   :(
He forgot that family was an important motivator for the Dark Lord of the Sith.
Quote
QuoteMost importantly of all, you've forgotten the implications of artificial gravity and inertial dampening.  Now, the Death Star would have been massive enough to generate it's own gravity, that would clearly be less than ideal in a structure that was intended to be at least partially habitable all through its volume.  What would stop the Empire from installing safety systems that would slow or halt a fall?  After all, we know that Bespin had such a system, as illustrated by Luke surviving a fall of at least a kilometer without injury.  Why not use them on the Death Star?  Clearly they hadn't been installed yet, but then again the Death Star wasn't supposed to be in use by the Emperor yet, and making the weapon and power systems operational took priority in order to accomplish the Emperor's plan.

You are correct; I was not aware such technologies existed.  That would explain why there isn't an enormous wind force in th Emperor's throne room.  There should be a massive pressure difference between the core of the Death Star and the outer shell where the throne room is located and such a massive shaft would allow for a huge transfer of air.  Artificial gravity would prevent such a pressure difference from occuring; but if there is artificial gravity in use anywhere on the Death Star why did the Emperor fall in a straight line rather than a parabolic trajectory?
Personally, I don't think that was the actual core of the Death Star down there, but rather a smaller, subsidiary reactor, or perhaps some other device.  After all, the Emperor only fell for five seconds or so, which means there's no way that he could have fallen the 480 km to the centre of the Death Star.  It was hard to judge the height of his throne room tower, but perhaps to the base of that.

As for the Emperor's fall, it would be hard to say how artificial gravity would interfere without knowing more about how the technology operates, and on what principles.  It seems to operate only on specific planes, so that a human can walk upright across a deck at a comfortable 9.81 m/s2, but this same artificial gravity generator has no effect on space junk in free fall, as demonstrated by the Avenger dumping it's garbage in Empire Strikes Back.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Darth Wagtaros

Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2009, 11:56:14 AM
I have a massive shaft in my office.
Rubber shafts don't count.
PDH!

jimmy olsen

Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 11:44:10 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 11:38:06 AM
And normally, the Emperor would be able to slow his fall with the force.
I have my doubts.  After all, if he could, why didn't he?

Although we've seen Jedi engage in great feats of leaping, I don't recall seeing levitation or flight from them.  They can move other objects, but they seem to have trouble moving themselves without an object, whether the ground, a plank or a handhold, to exert their force on.
When Vader picked him up didn't the force lighting form some kind of feedback loop and fry the Emperor as well?

Even if it did not, how do we know he didn't slow down and survive the fall? He could have been killed when the Station blew up.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Neil

Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2009, 12:51:56 PM
When Vader picked him up didn't the force lighting form some kind of feedback loop and fry the Emperor as well?
It didn't seem to.  It seemed as if Vader was fried, while the Emperor didn't seem to suffer any ill effects.  After all, he was able to continue generating lightning, which clearly took some exertion and conscious effort on his part.
QuoteEven if it did not, how do we know he didn't slow down and survive the fall? He could have been killed when the Station blew up.
Generally speaking, that explosion that happened after the Emperor's scream stopped is generally seen as an indication that the Emperor had died.  The explosion could be from the power reactor that the Emperor was thrown into, or it could be all the evil power in the Emperor's body being released by his death.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Tamas

Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 01:01:07 PM
it could be all the evil power in the Emperor's body being released by his death.


I always thought this was the case.

Caliga

0 Ed Anger Disapproval Points

Neil

Quote from: Caliga on May 22, 2009, 01:18:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 22, 2009, 01:16:16 PMI always thought this was the case.
Same.
It seems that many other people felt that way, since powerful Dark Jedi killed in the derivative works often show a similar effect.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Barrister

Quote from: Neil on May 22, 2009, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 22, 2009, 01:18:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 22, 2009, 01:16:16 PMI always thought this was the case.
Same.
It seems that many other people felt that way, since powerful Dark Jedi killed in the derivative works often show a similar effect.

There was no similar effect at the death of Darth Maul or Count Dooku though.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.