Languish.org

Today, I attended my first Intro to Computer Programming class. I was the only woman in a class of 18. Surprisingly, I don't think that I was the oldest in the class, as there was a gentleman who seemed at least my age, if not a bit older. The professor is a very large, very geeky, very socially inept man who studied computer programming when it was still called data processing (college in the 1970s).

The trouble started when I took my seat. I'd made an egregious error and sat directly next to a young man instead of sitting a seat away from him. (It was the closest seat I could get to.) He looked at me as if I'd just offered him a toasted tarantula, spun in his seat, and refused to look at me the entire class. Well all right then.

Then came the "social" aspect of the class. You all know how wonderful these are, right? Tell us about yourself, yadda yadda. In this case, the professor handed out neon yellow sheets of paper and asked us to write our names, addresses, and phone numbers on the top middle of the paper. Then, draw a 5" x 5" square in the center of the paper. (Older man in class, named Cleotis: "But I don't have a ruler!" Prof: "Just estimate." Cleotis: "Without a ruler, I can't estimate!" Prof: "Just give it your best shot. It's okay if it's not perfect." Cleotis: "It's not gonna' be perfect without a ruler.") Then, we were told to draw a self-portrait in the box. Half the class looked completely panicked; the other half thought this was hilarious. After the drawing portion of the class, he had us turn the paper over and answer a series of questions about ourselves. You know, thinks like what math classes have we had, what computer classes have we had, the names of any of our pets, etc. We turned the papers in (the kid next to me didn't even turn his head to look at me when he passed the papers my way), and then came the really fun part.

The professor stands in the front of the class and says, "Okay, now we're going to do the social part of things." He looks at me and says, "This is going to be easy for you. The social part is always easy for women. It's when we get to the programming that it's going to be hard because you have to focus on one small thing at a time, and women have a hard time with that. But that's okay, because you're going to have it so much easier with the social stuff, like now." :blink: "But there are some very good women programmers out there, because women are so organized!" :weep:

He continues with, "Okay [he says okay a LOT], I want you to introduce yourself to your classmates, and learn all you can because then you're going to be introducing your classmates to everyone else when we're done. Okay? Now, go." At which point, the kid next to me immediately turned his back to me so that he could converse with the very Auspie kid sitting next to him. (The Auspie kid is my favorite in the class. He's the only one who treated me like a person.) I looked around and everyone had paired up, leaving me sitting at the desk looking utterly ridiculous. For several minutes, I just sat there. Then I pulled out my phone and started texting Max, because, well fuck it, no one else was talking to me.

A few minutes later, the guy behind me tapped me on the shoulder and introduced himself to me. He's an older guy - well, older than the rest of the class - at around 25 or so, and very cute. He just moved to Champaign eight days ago from Panama so that he could take classes at this community college so he can transfer to UIUC. We chatted briefly (he hates the cold, he's living with a female friend at the moment, no family here with him) before I hit the death knell to the conversation: I brought up the fact that I was married. Almost as soon as I mentioned Max, the guy bowed out of the conversation. Kid you not, I mentioned Max, and within two more words, he nodded out of the conversation and started talking to the guy next to him again. Huh. Well, alrighty then.

The introductions come next, and the prof started with the Panamanian, who proceeded to introduce the guy next to him. Around the room they go, sharing this and that about each other. One guy had gotten up at the start of the introductions part to "use the restroom" and didn't come back until the introductions. He got to introduce himself, so he said his name and that he's a full-time student. Next! The Auspie guy was awesome! He introduced the guy next to me by telling everyone his full name (middle name, too), age, birthday, number of siblings (and genders), favorite video systems (and which one he owns), favorite video games, which systems his mother owned (Wii) and which ones he owned himself, what he's planning to go to school for, and his favorite color. One of the other guys said, "How'd you guys get an hour when we only got 10 minutes?" :lol:

The prof goes around the room and when he gets to me he says, "So, did anyone talk to you?" I said that yes, I'd met Christian, and indicated the guy behind me. The prof asked me to introduce Christian to the class, so I did, mentioning that he was from Panama, had just moved here, wasn't liking the cold - at which point the professor interrupted me mid-word to tell a story. He then passed on to the next guy. (And before anyone asks, no, I wasn't rambling. I had said exactly as much as I posted here before I was interrupted.) No one introduced me to the class.

The prof then moves on to start actually, you know, teaching the class. He starts out with a sports reference, moves on to a gaming reference, and from there jumps into some technical jargon about some scientific study about how programmers work. Finally, he commences with the teaching, which he did fairly well. I enjoyed the way he explained things, and he did a great job with entertaining questions and getting the class involved.

There are at least two guys who are obviously going to be messing with the prof throughout the class. They'd tried to sit in the back row, but the prof made them sit in the front row instead. They know quite a bit about computers, so this is obviously a pre-req for them and not something that they're going to learn anything in. That led to quite a bit of taunting of the prof, who mostly missed it because he's so socially inept that he didn't get it.

There's another guy who is absolutely adorable. It's obvious that he's an over-achiever type who just wants to get things done right, and the professor's inability to answer his very specific questions regarding how the grading is going to work was making him more and more agitated as the class went on. After class, he finally cornered the prof to get direct answers, but he left probably more frustrated than he had been. I felt so sorry for him because you can tell that he's going to be a mess until he gets those questions answered.

Most of the guys in the class are younger - 18 to 22 probably - with Cleotis (pronounced clee-OH-tis), Christian, and maybe one other guy older than that (he came in late and missed the introductions, lucky fuck).

The topic is interesting, and the personalities are a trip, but if the prof keeps trying to be so "inclusive" of me in the class, I don't know how long I'll last. It was pretty clear that he was just trying to prove that he didn't mind women in his class, but in doing so came across so horribly. I really have no idea why, but I felt completely humiliated by the end of the whole "social" part of the class. I just wanted to crawl into a hole. His social ineptitude should not make me feel awful, and yet somehow, it did.

So the next time someone asks, "Why are there so few women in computer science?" you'll know the answer.  :D

Gonna download this to my Kindle and read it in 10 installments :P 

But seriously, this sounds nothing like any programming class I've taken or heard of.  What's with the "social" BS-- just get down to business.  From what I recall, female classmates did lag a bit (which was fine with me because it gave me an in with a freshman cheerleader in my C programming class).  Oddly enough though, any computer-related class I took from elementary school lessons to college was taught by a woman, and she was usually pretty capable.

What school is this?

Quote from: derspiess on January 14, 2013, 08:20:09 PM
Gonna download this to my Kindle and read it in 10 installments :P 

:P It's my story; I'll tell it how I want to.

QuoteBut seriously, this sounds nothing like any programming class I've taken or heard of.  What's with the "social" BS-- just get down to business.  From what I recall, female classmates did lag a bit (which was fine with me because it gave me an in with a freshman cheerleader in my C programming class).  Oddly enough though, any computer-related class I took from elementary school lessons to college was taught by a woman, and she was usually pretty capable.

I'm hoping that after this class, that's what it will settle into. The "social" crap is just that, crap. It's supposed to be the way that everyone gets to know each other, blah blah blah. The prof said that if you get to know the people in your class, you're more likely to show up, so he wanted us to get to know our classmates.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 14, 2013, 08:28:12 PM
What school is this?

The community college that feeds into the UIUC program. It's a really good program as far as the education goes. Obviously, there's still room for improvement on the inclusion part of things. :P

Introductions.  :lol:

I should have the girls in my SCM class give me their digits. Yeah baby. Especially you in the first row. Right out of High School? Yeah, Professor Anger wants to talk to you.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 14, 2013, 08:51:21 PM
Introductions.  :lol:

I should have the girls in my SCM give me their digits. Yeah baby. Especially you in the first row. Right out of High School? Yeah, Professor Anger wants to talk to you.

All on 3x5 index cards, with a picture attached and a list of whatever daddy issues they have.

Anal: yes/no ?

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 14, 2013, 08:57:33 PM
Anal: yes/no ?

Well I figured that was a given.

When they came to be Cops, we did nothing.
When they came to be Construction workers, we did nothing.
When they came to be Politicians, we did nothing.
When they came to be Programmers, we stood our ground.

Back to the Kitchen, women!

There's nothing wrong with a little socializing at first, especially if there will be any group assignments in the future.  Gaining contacts in a class can improve one's success even without group work, too.

Anyway, sounds like you may be an outcast for most of that class, not just because of your gender but because you're older.  But to be honest if I was an 18 year old boy I probably wouldn't know how to (or even want to) talk to a woman your age in my class either.   After all at university I was trying to get away from my parents.   :P

What the fuck is an Auspie?

Quote from: Habbaku on January 14, 2013, 10:13:51 PM
What the fuck is an Auspie?

People who suffer of something that doesn't exist anymore, Asperger syndrome.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on January 14, 2013, 09:56:25 PM
There's nothing wrong with a little socializing at first, especially if there will be any group assignments in the future.  Gaining contacts in a class can improve one's success even without group work, too.

Anyway, sounds like you may be an outcast for most of that class, not just because of your gender but because you're older.  But to be honest if I was an 18 year old boy I probably wouldn't know how to (or even want to) talk to a woman your age in my class either.   After all at university I was trying to get away from my parents.   :P

Boy, you sure know how to talk to a lady :D

That prof is so bad with women not out of some sort of misogyny, but out of a severe lack of experience communicating with them.  :lol:

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on January 14, 2013, 09:56:25 PM
There's nothing wrong with a little socializing at first, especially if there will be any group assignments in the future.  Gaining contacts in a class can improve one's success even without group work, too.

Anyway, sounds like you may be an outcast for most of that class, not just because of your gender but because you're older.  But to be honest if I was an 18 year old boy I probably wouldn't know how to (or even want to) talk to a woman your age in my class either.   After all at university I was trying to get away from my parents.   :P

Wow. Just when I thought the experience couldn't get any worse... you come along. :glare:


:P

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 14, 2013, 10:37:04 PM
That prof is so bad with women not out of some sort of misogyny, but out of a severe lack of experience communicating with them.  :lol:

:yes:

That's what made it almost tolerable. He was trying so hard to be cool about my being in the class, and failing so epically! :lol:

I wonder if he had a harder time of it because I'm an older woman and not a teenager.

Best way to deal with that kind of crap is just to hunker down and do the work.  Programming types tend to stop noticing the "aberration" of having female students when they're grading and don't see a significant difference in the work.  Anyway, intro to computer programming?  What are the course objectives?  You going to get to do actual coding, or are you going to have to use some nonsense applications to "learn the principles" of programming (by which I'm assuming we're talking object-oriented programming)?

It's a Visual Basic 2010 class. I'm taking C++ this summer. The intro class is required before I can take the other classes that I want to take.

Quote from: merithyn on January 14, 2013, 10:51:52 PM
It's a Visual Basic 2010 class. I'm taking C++ this summer. The intro class is required before I can take the other classes that I want to take.

Wait, the course to teach you programming principles is a VB course?  Oh dear.

Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 14, 2013, 10:59:40 PM

Quote from: merithyn on January 14, 2013, 10:51:52 PM
It's a Visual Basic 2010 class. I'm taking C++ this summer. The intro class is required before I can take the other classes that I want to take.

Wait, the course to teach you programming principles is a VB course?  Oh dear.

What's wrong with a VB course as an introduction to programming?

Quote from: DGuller on January 14, 2013, 11:04:36 PM
What's wrong with a VB course as an introduction to programming?

Depends on the program objectives, but most software development programs I've seen focus on object-oriented programming, while VB's an event-driven programming language with a few quirks.

Given that I'm going into Web Programming - and a ton of jobs require VB/ASP.NET, which is what this class covers - I'm not sure what the problem is. :huh:

Quote from: derspiess on January 14, 2013, 10:29:51 PM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on January 14, 2013, 09:56:25 PM
There's nothing wrong with a little socializing at first, especially if there will be any group assignments in the future.  Gaining contacts in a class can improve one's success even without group work, too.

Anyway, sounds like you may be an outcast for most of that class, not just because of your gender but because you're older.  But to be honest if I was an 18 year old boy I probably wouldn't know how to (or even want to) talk to a woman your age in my class either.   After all at university I was trying to get away from my parents.   :P

Boy, you sure know how to talk to a lady :D

Is this Languish or a dinner party?   :P  Besides Meri can handle the truth that 18-year-olds have fuck all in common with 30 and 40+, and probably generally won't try to socialize with them.

As for OP, I wouldn't read too much into instructor's comments.  He realizes that women need extra reassurances and comforting when it comes to such hard sciences, and he was just clumsy in his attempts to provide it.

Quote from: DGuller on January 14, 2013, 11:38:27 PM
As for OP, I wouldn't read too much into instructor's comments.  He realizes that women need extra reassurances and comforting when it comes to such hard sciences, and he was just clumsy in his attempts to provide it.

:lol:

You're such a dick. :hug:

Congratulations on the first step in your new journey, Merithyn!

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flsd.dula.tv%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F10%2Fbattleship-men-only.jpg&hash=1b0e804a8313b2cf3611edf0eb4088fc4ae26500)

 :lol:

I'm glad that Meri is showing tolerance toward the socially-inept community  :cool:

The professor is clearly well-meaning, the young males are assholes of course but that is axiomatic........young men are assholes  :P

I'm amazed they even tried to introduce a social aspect to programming :P I suspect after this introduction this sort of interaction won't even bother you when you get into doing some actual programming.

I started my IT degree in 1986, when no-one owned a home computer and the World Wide Web was still three years away, and my class was 50:50 male to female. I found the same ratio in the industry when I joined, with a leaning towards more women in software testing. It'd be sad if that had swung back the other way.

The age thing is a factor at first but soon fades. I've moved into an industry where the next in age to me in my team is 15 years younger and some of my colleagues were born in the 90s... I recommend getting drunk with your classmates.

50:50? Wow, surprising. When I  did my bachellors there were only 3 or 4 girls out of around 40 or 50 people.

Quote from: Brazen on January 15, 2013, 06:11:17 AM
I'm amazed they even tried to introduce a social aspect to programming :P I suspect after this introduction this sort of interaction won't even bother you when you get into doing some actual programming.

I started my IT degree in 1986, when no-one owned a home computer and the World Wide Web was still three years away, and my class was 50:50 male to female. I found the same ratio in the industry when I joined, with a leaning towards more women in software testing. It'd be sad if that had swung back the other way.

The age thing is a factor at first but soon fades. I've moved into an industry where the next in age to me in my team is 15 years younger and some of my colleagues were born in the 90s... I recommend getting drunk with your classmates.

I think that's shifted quite a bit now, B, unfortunately. It is incredibly rare to find women in these types of classes, as my professor's reaction shows. It seems like the classes tend to cater more toward the hacker mentality now, which most women (and older students) don't really get, or want to get.

I'll stick with this because I want the certificate. I want to learn the job, and this is how I do it. But I'll be honest, the idea of walking back into that classroom again gives me a little bit of a stomach ache. I may cut my hair, bind my chest, and dress in a suit for the duration of the semester.  :ph34r:

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 15, 2013, 03:34:48 AM
I'm glad that Meri is showing tolerance toward the socially-inept community  :cool:

The professor is clearly well-meaning, the young males are assholes of course but that is axiomatic........young men are assholes  :P

I don't think they're assholes. I think they, like the professor, just don't know what to do with a woman in their midst, especially one that's old enough to be their mother, as PP so kindly pointed out. :P I'm sure on some level they were thinking that at least in this class they wouldn't have to worry about it... and then I show up. Ta-da!  :showoff:

I'm sure it will be fine once they get used to you.

Quote from: Brazen on January 15, 2013, 06:11:17 AM
I recommend getting drunk with your classmates.

Yeah, Meri, you buy, and the 18-20 year olds in your class will have no problem with you.

Quote from: dps on January 15, 2013, 12:12:09 PM

Quote from: Brazen on January 15, 2013, 06:11:17 AM
I recommend getting drunk with your classmates.

Yeah, Meri, you buy, and the 18-20 year olds in your class will have no problem with you.

:huh:

I'm the one raising four kids - two of whom are in college! I'm fairly sure they have a lot more extra cash on them than I do. They should be buying for me!  :P

Lulz, Meri's got more MLIF-induced boners pointed her way than Boy Scouts looking for water with divining rods in the desert.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 15, 2013, 02:08:18 PM
Lulz, Meri's got more MLIF-induced boners pointed her way than Boy Scouts looking for water with divining rods in the desert.

Uh.. thanks? :unsure:

:lol:

I know what I'll do. Rather than hiding in a corner, I'll show up to my next class in this dress:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dressam.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F08%2FSexy-Little-Black-Dress.jpg&hash=64ab6db842d419d0fecb9531898b307f22ab356f)

Nothing like going overboard, right? I bet I wouldn't have to do my homework all semester... and that'd be with the professor's approval. :D

Quote from: merithyn on January 14, 2013, 10:51:52 PM
It's a Visual Basic 2010 class. I'm taking C++ this summer. The intro class is required before I can take the other classes that I want to take.

C++ is pretty useless for web development. There are much better frameworks for other languages and string manipulation is clumsy in C++. Better spend your time learning C# if you want to go into ASP.net. Or learn something like Ruby on Rails.

Quote from: Zanza on January 15, 2013, 02:30:53 PM

Quote from: merithyn on January 14, 2013, 10:51:52 PM
It's a Visual Basic 2010 class. I'm taking C++ this summer. The intro class is required before I can take the other classes that I want to take.

C++ is pretty useless for web development. There are much better frameworks for other languages and string manipulation is clumsy in C++. Better spend your time learning C# if you want to go into ASP.net. Or learn something like Ruby on Rails.

I've actually been thinking of changing it to C# instead. ASP.net is in the coursework that I'll be taking later on. The C++ was in addition to the cert requirements, but yeah, C# would be the better option.

Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 14, 2013, 11:16:31 PM

Quote from: DGuller on January 14, 2013, 11:04:36 PM
What's wrong with a VB course as an introduction to programming?

Depends on the program objectives, but most software development programs I've seen focus on object-oriented programming, while VB's an event-driven programming language with a few quirks.

Are you confusing VB and VBA? Because VB is object oriented.

Learn python[at some point] everyone seems to be madly in love with it these days.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 15, 2013, 02:42:58 PM
Learn python[at some point] everyone seems to be madly in love with it these days.

Already working on it.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 15, 2013, 02:08:18 PM
Lulz, Meri's got more MLIF-induced boners pointed her way than Boy Scouts looking for water with divining rods in the desert.

  :lol:

Meri, that is a very entertaining OP on your class! Really funny commentary about some of the guys. Like the one next to you, avoiding you, turning his back on you. What a spaz. Then the guy behind you thining he's going to hit on you or something, and being so obvious about it. Or maybe he thought you were brushing him off because you mentioned being married. Enjoy your class!

Enjoy your VB class. I haven't used VB in many years but it i felt it was interesting and fun to work with. I also took some C+ courses but never used it in a job. I do little programming now, mostly a mix of report writing and programming on our Vendor's system when necessary. Mostly application support which doesn't usually include much programming, which I like better.

I work in IT and there are many women, though now thinking about it the network and technical types are mostly men. But in application support there are at least as many women as men.

Quote from: KRonn on January 15, 2013, 03:10:25 PM
Meri, that is a very entertaining OP on your class! Really funny commentary about some of the guys. Like the one next to you, avoiding you, turning his back on you. What a spaz. Then the guy behind you thining he's going to hit on you or something, and being so obvious about it. Or maybe he thought you were brushing him off because you mentioned being married. Enjoy your class!

Thanks, KRonn. :hug:

QuoteEnjoy your VB class. I haven't used VB in many years but it i felt it was interesting and fun to work with. I also took some C+ courses but never used it in a job. I do little programming now, mostly a mix of report writing and programming on our Vendor's system when necessary. Mostly application support which doesn't usually include much programming, which I like better.

I work in IT and there are many women, though now thinking about it the network and technical types are mostly men. But in application support there are at least as many women as men.

Do me a favor and ask your women colleagues if they went through anything similar, will you? I'm hoping that this was an abberation and not something I'm going to have to deal with in all of my classes.

Quote from: Zanza on January 15, 2013, 02:34:21 PM
Are you confusing VB and VBA? Because VB is object oriented.

At second glance, they may have heavily overhauled VB since I was using it (VB6). :blush:

I really would doubt that what you went through is normal, but I'm basing it off of when I took computer classes in school years ago. Maybe these days it's different with the more tech driven kids, but I'm wondering if you have an ususal group there, including the teacher, at least regarding how they feel towards women in a tech field.

I'll try and ask around with some of the women if they had similar experiences.

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 02:22:10 PM
I know what I'll do. Rather than hiding in a corner, I'll show up to my next class in this dress:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dressam.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F08%2FSexy-Little-Black-Dress.jpg&hash=64ab6db842d419d0fecb9531898b307f22ab356f)

Nothing like going overboard, right? I bet I wouldn't have to do my homework all semester... and that'd be with the professor's approval. :D

If they mark on a bell curve you will be getting an A+ if you pick up your pencil from the floor every now and then during exams.  Hell, given your description of the prof you will be getting an A+ regardless! :D

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 03:19:06 PM
Do me a favor and ask your women colleagues if they went through anything similar, will you? I'm hoping that this was an abberation and not something I'm going to have to deal with in all of my classes.

Face it, Meri:  you're the only piece of meat in the lion's den.  Young, horny lions.

Lulz, you're gonna get poked with a hard-on by midterms, just watch.

Dude, I'm old enough to their mother, remember? I'm going to go with probably not so much. I'm cute to a man your age. To a kid that age? Yeah... not likely.

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 03:38:26 PM
Dude, I'm old enough to their mother, remember? I'm going to go with probably not so much. I'm cute to a man your age. To a kid that age? Yeah... not likely.

I wonder what the M in MILF means?  :hmm:

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 15, 2013, 03:39:35 PM

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 03:38:26 PM
Dude, I'm old enough to their mother, remember? I'm going to go with probably not so much. I'm cute to a man your age. To a kid that age? Yeah... not likely.

I wonder what the M in MILF means?  :hmm:

:rolleyes:

Pfft, doesn't matter.    Boners know not what they do.
Besides, every young man has to at least try to score an "I'm-old-enough-to-be-your-mother-oh-god-you're-making-me-cum-again" touchdown once in his career.  It's in the rules.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 15, 2013, 03:41:49 PM
Pfft, doesn't matter.    Boners know not what they do.
Besides, every young man has to at least try to score an "I'm-old-enough-to-be-your-mother-oh-god-you're-making-me-cum-again" touchdown once in his career.  It's in the rules.

:lol:

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 03:45:56 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 15, 2013, 03:41:49 PM
Pfft, doesn't matter.    Boners know not what they do.
Besides, every young man has to at least try to score an "I'm-old-enough-to-be-your-mother-oh-god-you're-making-me-cum-again" touchdown once in his career.  It's in the rules.

:lol:

If I had known that being more explicit would have gained a good smiley instead of a roll eyes...

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 15, 2013, 03:48:18 PM

If I had known that being more explicit would have gained a good smiley instead of a roll eyes...

I still think it's eye-rolling worthy, believe me. Though I do appreciate the effort. :D :hug:

Again, I'm cute, not sexay MILF-y. World of difference. And besides, can you imagine how awkward it would be if my son stops by my class for something and one of the guys in the class tells him his mother is hott? I think I'll stick to my typical, librarian-type office clothes and try to keep my head down. Seems the safest - and wisest - course. :P

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 03:52:00 PM
I think I'll stick to my typical, librarian-type office clothes

You're such a fucking tease sometimes.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 15, 2013, 03:55:40 PM

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 03:52:00 PM
I think I'll stick to my typical, librarian-type office clothes

You're such a fucking tease sometimes.

Why, whatever do you mean? :unsure:







;)

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 03:19:06 PM
Do me a favor and ask your women colleagues if they went through anything similar, will you? I'm hoping that this was an abberation and not something I'm going to have to deal with in all of my classes.

I don't remember anything like that in my CS classes but then also some of my classes had female professors. We had a lot of female students too.

There were hot chicks in my Comp Sci classes back in the day.

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 01:26:58 PM

Quote from: dps on January 15, 2013, 12:12:09 PM

Quote from: Brazen on January 15, 2013, 06:11:17 AM
I recommend getting drunk with your classmates.

Yeah, Meri, you buy, and the 18-20 year olds in your class will have no problem with you.

:huh:

I'm the one raising four kids - two of whom are in college! I'm fairly sure they have a lot more extra cash on them than I do. They should be buying for me!  :P

Well, my point was kind of that they can't legally buy alcohol.  You can buy it for them, but I didn't say it had to be your money.

The CS courses I took I mostly did online, thank goodness. They weren't online online classes, but online courses through my university.

Therefore, I never had to interact with anyone in person.

Quote from: Caliga on January 15, 2013, 07:29:30 PM
There were hot chicks in my Comp Sci classes back in the day.

There are hot chicks in my comp engineering class...today.

Quote from: Valmy on January 15, 2013, 11:56:55 PM

Quote from: Caliga on January 15, 2013, 07:29:30 PM
There were hot chicks in my Comp Sci classes back in the day.

There are hot chicks in my comp engineering class...today.

Great. So it's just this class. I can live with that.

Quote from: merithyn on January 16, 2013, 12:05:49 AM
Great. So it's just this class. I can live with that.

May just be Illinois and its backwards ways :P

Quote from: Valmy on January 16, 2013, 12:10:52 AM

Quote from: merithyn on January 16, 2013, 12:05:49 AM
Great. So it's just this class. I can live with that.

May just be Illinois and its backwards ways :P

Cruel. :P

Quote from: Valmy on January 16, 2013, 12:10:52 AM

Quote from: merithyn on January 16, 2013, 12:05:49 AM
Great. So it's just this class. I can live with that.

May just be Illinois and its backwards ways :P

I'll accept that as valid. :sleep:

Quote from: Valmy on January 15, 2013, 11:56:55 PM

Quote from: Caliga on January 15, 2013, 07:29:30 PM
There were hot chicks in my Comp Sci classes back in the day.

There are hot chicks in my comp engineering class...today.

Dude, I have been to Austin.  There are hot chicks everywhere.  Probably even the DnD groups have hot players.

Quote from: merithyn on January 15, 2013, 09:59:39 AM

Quote from: Brazen on January 15, 2013, 06:11:17 AM
I'm amazed they even tried to introduce a social aspect to programming :P I suspect after this introduction this sort of interaction won't even bother you when you get into doing some actual programming.

I started my IT degree in 1986, when no-one owned a home computer and the World Wide Web was still three years away, and my class was 50:50 male to female. I found the same ratio in the industry when I joined, with a leaning towards more women in software testing. It'd be sad if that had swung back the other way.

The age thing is a factor at first but soon fades. I've moved into an industry where the next in age to me in my team is 15 years younger and some of my colleagues were born in the 90s... I recommend getting drunk with your classmates.

I think that's shifted quite a bit now, B, unfortunately. It is incredibly rare to find women in these types of classes, as my professor's reaction shows. It seems like the classes tend to cater more toward the hacker mentality now, which most women (and older students) don't really get, or want to get.

I'll stick with this because I want the certificate. I want to learn the job, and this is how I do it. But I'll be honest, the idea of walking back into that classroom again gives me a little bit of a stomach ache. I may cut my hair, bind my chest, and dress in a suit for the duration of the semester.  :ph34r:

Don't you think you are over-reacting and over-generalizing just a teeny bit?

Quote from: Berkut on January 16, 2013, 10:44:12 AM

Don't you think you are over-reacting and over-generalizing just a teeny bit?

Well, based on my experience with a husband who's just gone through the Computer Science program at UIUC (ranked #4 in the country) where women were pretty rare, my personal experience in my class, and a variety of articles out talking about how women are terribly underrepresented in the tech world especially compared to 20 and 30 years ago, I'll go with no, I'm not over-generalizing.

From Wiki  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing) (their sources are at the bottom of the article):

QuoteIn the United States, the number of women represented in undergraduate computer science education and the white-collar information technology workforce peaked in the mid-1980s, and has declined ever since. In 1984, 37.1% of Computer Science degrees were awarded to women; the percentage dropped to 29.9% in 1989-1990, and 26.7% in 1997-1998.[1] Figures from the Computing Research Association Taulbee Survey indicate that less than 12% of Computer Science degrees were awarded to women in 2010-11.[2]

Over-reacting to being humiliated in the classroom? Again, no, I don't think that I am. You may have been fine with how things went down had they been directed at you, but I was not. In fact, I was pretty upset for quite a while about it, and am still not thrilled with the idea of going back into that classroom. It was a horrible ordeal, and one that I have no desire to repeat, which could very well happen if I go back.

No sources for that. You'll just have to take my word on it. :)

This is kind of interesting. It was on the same Wiki that I quoted above:

QuoteResearch on the barriers that women face in undergraduate computing[17] has highlighted such factors as:

• Undergraduate classroom teaching in which the "weedout" practices and policies privileging competition over cooperation tend to advantage men.
• Laboratory climates in which women are seen as foreign and not belonging at best, and experience blatant hostility and sexism at worst.
• Well-meaning people who unwittingly create stereotype threat by reminding students that "women can do computing as well as men".
• Strong resistance to changing the system in which these and other subtle practices are continuously reproduced.

Like the pre-college situation, solutions are most often implemented outside of the mainstream (e.g., providing role models, mentoring, and women's groups), which can also create the perception among women, their male peers, and their professors that to be successful, women need "extra help" to graduate. Most people do not realize that the "extra help" is not academic, but instead access to the kind of peer networks more readily available to male students. Many women decline to participate in these extracurricular support groups because they do not want to appear deficient. In short, the conditions under which women (and underrepresented minority students) study computing are not the same as those experienced by men.

Quote from: merithyn on January 16, 2013, 11:17:17 AM
Undergraduate classroom teaching in which the “weedout” practices and policies privileging competition over cooperation tend to advantage men

LOL whatever they have those things on a MUCH larger scale in departments that are dominated by women.

Quote from: merithyn on January 16, 2013, 11:06:31 AM

Quote from: Berkut on January 16, 2013, 10:44:12 AM

Don't you think you are over-reacting and over-generalizing just a teeny bit?

Well, based on my experience with a husband who's just gone through the Computer Science program at UIUC (ranked #4 in the country) where women were pretty rare, my personal experience in my class, and a variety of articles out talking about how women are terribly underrepresented in the tech world especially compared to 20 and 30 years ago, I'll go with no, I'm not over-generalizing.

From Wiki  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing) (their sources are at the bottom of the article):

QuoteIn the United States, the number of women represented in undergraduate computer science education and the white-collar information technology workforce peaked in the mid-1980s, and has declined ever since. In 1984, 37.1% of Computer Science degrees were awarded to women; the percentage dropped to 29.9% in 1989-1990, and 26.7% in 1997-1998.[1] Figures from the Computing Research Association Taulbee Survey indicate that less than 12% of Computer Science degrees were awarded to women in 2010-11.[2]

Over-reacting to being humiliated in the classroom?

Humiliated? Really?

I rest my case.

Quote
Again, no, I don't think that I am. You may have been fine with how things went down had they been directed at you, but I was not. In fact, I was pretty upset for quite a while about it, and am still not thrilled with the idea of going back into that classroom. It was a horrible ordeal, and one that I have no desire to repeat, which could very well happen if I go back.

Was there something I missed in your story?

Nobody talking to you when it came to social time because they are a bunch of ackward dorks is a "horrible ordeal"?

Quote from: Berkut on January 16, 2013, 11:25:45 AM
Humiliated? Really?

I rest my case.

Was there something I missed in your story?

Nobody talking to you when it came to social time because they are a bunch of ackward dorks is a "horrible ordeal"?

That part was a non-issue, so far as I was concerned. Yes, it was embarassing, but no, I didn't feel humiliated.

Instead, it was the way that the professor pointed out in front of the entire class that a) I was a woman, b) I'd be GREAT at the social stuff because I'm a woman (and then having no one talk to me at all during the social stuff), c) tell the entire class that I was going to have problems programming because I'm a woman, and d) tell the entire class that that was okay, because since I'm a woman I'm organized and therefore I could overcome those deficiencies.

Again, how you'd respond to that is how you would respond to that. I, on the other hand, felt humiliated. Yes, humiliated. I wanted to crawl into a hole and stay there until everyone left. At one point, I was actually fighting tears. I'm glad that you would have absolutely no problem in that situation. I, however, did have a problem with it. A very big problem.

And before you go there, fuck you. I had my big-girl panties on. I sat there, took it, said nothing, and got on about my business. But how I FELT about it was exactly as I've explained.

Personally, I've never been humiliated by anything anyone else has done to me.  I've often embarrassed myself, but anything someone else does can't embarrass me, just piss me off. 

Quote from: dps on January 16, 2013, 12:16:52 PM
Personally, I've never been humiliated by anything anyone else has done to me.  I've often embarrassed myself, but anything someone else does can't embarrass me, just piss me off.

That's how I normally respond, but in this case, I was so confused. I've never had anyone do that to me before - call me out in front of the entire class, point out my differences, and then tell the whole class what my deficiencies would be before he even knew my name! - and I knew that he wasn't being malicious. He honestly thought he was making things easier for me! I couldn't be angry at him. Not really, anyway. That confusion, along with having my supposed abilities and inabilities laid out as fact to the entire class, just made me want to escape as quickly as possible. I never wanted to go back, either. 

Quote from: merithyn on January 16, 2013, 11:56:36 AM

Quote from: Berkut on January 16, 2013, 11:25:45 AM
Humiliated? Really?

I rest my case.

Was there something I missed in your story?

Nobody talking to you when it came to social time because they are a bunch of ackward dorks is a "horrible ordeal"?

That part was a non-issue, so far as I was concerned. Yes, it was embarassing, but no, I didn't feel humiliated.

Instead, it was the way that the professor pointed out in front of the entire class that a) I was a woman, b) I'd be GREAT at the social stuff because I'm a woman (and then having no one talk to me at all during the social stuff), c) tell the entire class that I was going to have problems programming because I'm a woman, and d) tell the entire class that that was okay, because since I'm a woman I'm organized and therefore I could overcome those deficiencies.

Again, how you'd respond to that is how you would respond to that. I, on the other hand, felt humiliated. Yes, humiliated. I wanted to crawl into a hole and stay there until everyone left. At one point, I was actually fighting tears. I'm glad that you would have absolutely no problem in that situation. I, however, did have a problem with it. A very big problem.

And before you go there, fuck you. I had my big-girl panties on. I sat there, took it, said nothing, and got on about my business. But how I FELT about it was exactly as I've explained.

Fuck me? Really?

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 12:17:33 AM
Fuck me? Really?

:hmm: This thread has taken an interesting and unexpected twist. :o

:D



Yeah...that is a lot of limelight to deal with, Meri, but I have not the slightest doubt in my mind you'll get through this just fine.

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 12:17:33 AM
Fuck me? Really?

I was frustrated. :sleep: I'm sorry.

Quote from: Jaron on January 17, 2013, 12:48:47 AM
Yeah...that is a lot of limelight to deal with, Meri, but I have not the slightest doubt in my mind you'll get through this just fine.

The social part, sure, but she also has to learn to program. :frusty:

Quote from: merithyn on January 16, 2013, 12:23:02 PM
That's how I normally respond, but in this case, I was so confused. I've never had anyone do that to me before - call me out in front of the entire class, point out my differences, and then tell the whole class what my deficiencies would be before he even knew my name!

I had that happen in the very first college class I sat down in.  It was a 300-level American History class and the prof had to do counts of the # of students by year.  He started with seniors and worked his way down through the 2 sophomores that were in there.  He then laughed and said "I'm pretty sure there aren't any freshman in here" and I stood up & told him he had one.

He glared at me & reminded me this was a Junior-level history class not intended for underclassmen and that "freshman don't tend to do very well in my classes".  Pissed me off at first, but I was able to turn that into some motivation (nothing motivates me better than someone telling me I can't do something).  He tended to be a bit dismissive early in the semester whenever I offered anything for class discussions and I suspect he graded my exams a bit tighter than the others, but once I aced the mid-term he had no choice but to respect me.  Until a year later when he shouted at me for a disagreement we had about labor unions, but that's another story.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 17, 2013, 09:57:52 AM

Quote from: Jaron on January 17, 2013, 12:48:47 AM
Yeah...that is a lot of limelight to deal with, Meri, but I have not the slightest doubt in my mind you'll get through this just fine.

The social part, sure, but she also has to learn to program. :frusty:

:ultra: :ultra: :ultra:

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 10:02:34 AM
I had that happen in the very first college class I sat down in.  It was a 300-level American History class and the prof had to do counts of the # of students by year.  He started with seniors and worked his way down through the 2 sophomores that were in there.  He then laughed and said "I'm pretty sure there aren't any freshman in here" and I stood up & told him he had one.

He glared at me & reminded me this was a Junior-level history class not intended for underclassmen and that "freshman don't tend to do very well in my classes".  Pissed me off at first, but I was able to turn that into some motivation (nothing motivates me better than someone telling me I can't do something).  He tended to be a bit dismissive early in the semester whenever I offered anything for class discussions and I suspect he graded my exams a bit tighter than the others, but once I aced the mid-term he had no choice but to respect me.  Until a year later when he shouted at me for a disagreement we had about labor unions, but that's another story.

I would prefer that kind of a response to my being in the class. I can turn that into something I can use. Like you, telling me that I can't do something - aggressively or dismissively - will light a fire under me like nothing else.

I have a feeling that this guy is going to be bending over backwards to "help me succeed", because obviously, I can't do it all by myself. I fully expect him to be much easier when it comes to grading me, and to give me extra time much more easily, which, now that I think about it, pisses me off.

In the beginning, I was hurt and embarassed. The more I think about it, though, the more angry that I get. Yeah, he was trying to be inclusive, but, nice as he was trying to be, it was completely inappropriate. The part that really pisses me off is that I know that any success that I have he's going to put it down to my being "organized" rather than anything else.  :mad:

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 10:40:55 AM

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 10:02:34 AM
I had that happen in the very first college class I sat down in.  It was a 300-level American History class and the prof had to do counts of the # of students by year.  He started with seniors and worked his way down through the 2 sophomores that were in there.  He then laughed and said "I'm pretty sure there aren't any freshman in here" and I stood up & told him he had one.

He glared at me & reminded me this was a Junior-level history class not intended for underclassmen and that "freshman don't tend to do very well in my classes".  Pissed me off at first, but I was able to turn that into some motivation (nothing motivates me better than someone telling me I can't do something).  He tended to be a bit dismissive early in the semester whenever I offered anything for class discussions and I suspect he graded my exams a bit tighter than the others, but once I aced the mid-term he had no choice but to respect me.  Until a year later when he shouted at me for a disagreement we had about labor unions, but that's another story.

I would prefer that kind of a response to my being in the class. I can turn that into something I can use. Like you, telling me that I can't do something - aggressively or dismissively - will light a fire under me like nothing else.

I have a feeling that this guy is going to be bending over backwards to "help me succeed", because obviously, I can't do it all by myself. I fully expect him to be much easier when it comes to grading me, and to give me extra time much more easily, which, now that I think about it, pisses me off.

In the beginning, I was hurt and embarassed. The more I think about it, though, the more angry that I get. Yeah, he was trying to be inclusive, but, nice as he was trying to be, it was completely inappropriate. The part that really pisses me off is that I know that any success that I have he's going to put it down to my being "organized" rather than anything else.  :mad:

Hey, any success you achieve can be put down to him pissing you off.  :D

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 10:40:55 AM
The part that really pisses me off is that I know that any success that I have he's going to put it down to my being "organized" rather than anything else.  :mad:

Dunno.  Nothing succeeds like success.  Work as hard as you can to perform at or near the top of the class and move on after that.  I think you're worrying too much about him having the appropriate frame of mind.

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 11:12:13 AM

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 10:40:55 AM
The part that really pisses me off is that I know that any success that I have he's going to put it down to my being "organized" rather than anything else.  :mad:

Dunno.  Nothing succeeds like success.  Work as hard as you can to perform at or near the top of the class and move on after that.  I think you're worrying too much about him having the appropriate frame of mind.

Point conceded. I'll be working hard to learn as much as I can - well, and to be the top of the class. To hell with Mr. Professor. Sir.

:thumbsup:

I will say this - this is NOT the reason women don't study CS.

You are mixing up cause and effect Meri. You were treated weirdly because so few women take CS courses.

Although I have a degree in CS, and I never saw anything even remotely similar to what you described happen in any course I ever took. Any professor who made grossly sexist remarks like that would have been fired immediately if it happened more than once (the first time they get sent to sensitivity training, second time they are gone), even if they did think they were trying to help. Most universities I am aware of are hyper-conscious of discrimination issues.

Meri just picked the wrong class at the wrong time to be the only MLIF within hunting range, s'all.

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 12:57:55 PM
I will say this - this is NOT the reason women don't study CS.

You are mixing up cause and effect Meri. You were treated weirdly because so few women take CS courses.

Although I have a degree in CS, and I never saw anything even remotely similar to what you described happen in any course I ever took. Any professor who made grossly sexist remarks like that would have been fired immediately if it happened more than once (the first time they get sent to sensitivity training, second time they are gone), even if they did think they were trying to help. Most universities I am aware of are hyper-conscious of discrimination issues.

The title was a joke, Berk. I'm well-aware that there are a lot of reasons that women don't take CS classes (though the Wiki article did rank this kind of behavior as one of the top four reasons).

So are you recommending that I file a complaint?

Let us know when the first guy offers to help you after class, Meri.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 17, 2013, 01:04:00 PM
Let us know when the first guy offers to help you after class, Meri.

:huh:

One already has. Should they not have? :unsure:





Of course, it was my husband, but still.... :P

NO NO NO THAT DOESNT COUNT

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 01:02:29 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 12:57:55 PM
I will say this - this is NOT the reason women don't study CS.

You are mixing up cause and effect Meri. You were treated weirdly because so few women take CS courses.

Although I have a degree in CS, and I never saw anything even remotely similar to what you described happen in any course I ever took. Any professor who made grossly sexist remarks like that would have been fired immediately if it happened more than once (the first time they get sent to sensitivity training, second time they are gone), even if they did think they were trying to help. Most universities I am aware of are hyper-conscious of discrimination issues.

The title was a joke, Berk. I'm well-aware that there are a lot of reasons that women don't take CS classes (though the Wiki article did rank this kind of behavior as one of the top four reasons).

I firmly believe that the author of the wiki article almost certainly wants us to believe this is one of the top reasons.

Quote

So are you recommending that I file a complaint?

If he actually said exactly what you said he said, of course you should.

Obviously you should complain. If you people don't have vyctymhood, what do you have?

Maybe just flashing her tits in class would relieve all the tension.

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 03:08:14 PM
Maybe just flashing her tits in class would relieve all the tension.

:yes: and we want video of the event too. :)

IMHO she should make a man. With blond hair and a tan.

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 02:50:45 PM

I firmly believe that the author of the wiki article almost certainly wants us to believe this is one of the top reasons.

Actually, a study  (http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/women-and-information-technology) done by Women & Information Technology from MITPress says it is true. A bit about the study according to the authors:

QuoteComputing remains a heavily male-dominated field even after twenty-five years of extensive efforts to promote female participation. The contributors to Women and Information Technology look at reasons for the persistent gender imbalance in computing and explore some strategies intended to reverse the downward trend. The studies included are rigorous social science investigations; they rely on empirical evidence—not rhetoric, hunches, folk wisdom, or off-the-cuff speculation about supposed innate differences between men and women.

Quote
If he actually said exactly what you said he said, of course you should.

If? Why would I lie? :huh:

Given that I have to be in this man's class for the next 15 weeks, it seems like shooting myself in the foot to report him after Day 1. I'll consider it, but again, I question the wisdom of that.

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 03:41:09 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 02:50:45 PM

I firmly believe that the author of the wiki article almost certainly wants us to believe this is one of the top reasons.

Actually, a study  (http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/women-and-information-technology) done by Women & Information Technology from MITPress says it is true. A bit about the study according to the authors:

QuoteComputing remains a heavily male-dominated field even after twenty-five years of extensive efforts to promote female participation. The contributors to Women and Information Technology look at reasons for the persistent gender imbalance in computing and explore some strategies intended to reverse the downward trend. The studies included are rigorous social science investigations; they rely on empirical evidence—not rhetoric, hunches, folk wisdom, or off-the-cuff speculation about supposed innate differences between men and women.

That isn't a study, it is a book. I have not read the book, but I suspect you have not either. The synopsis you gave doesn't say much aof anything about a primary reason there are not more women in computer science is because they are treated poorly in classes. Indeed, what it DOES say about it is this:

Quote..twenty-five years of extensive efforts to promote female participation.

I don't think "humiliating" women in class really falls under estensive efforts to promote female participation.

Quote

Quote
If he actually said exactly what you said he said, of course you should.

If? Why would I lie? :huh:

Who said anything about lying? Not me.

Quote

Given that I have to be in this man's class for the next 15 weeks, it seems like shooting myself in the foot to report him after Day 1. I'll consider it, but again, I question the wisdom of that.

Then you are part of the problem. If people do not report discrimination when it is experienced because it may personally make them uncomfortable, then I don't think they have much room to complain about it. As a society, we set up myriad means of addressing pernicious problems like gender discrimination. If you decide it is too personally risky or simply not worth it to use those resources, then why complain about the discrimination? It can't be that bad if it isn't bad enough for you to take advantage of the systems setup specifically to address the issue you experienced.

All that being said, you said that you don't think the professor was even being intentionally malicious - so why would you fear him treating you even more unfairly for pointing out to him that his behavior was not acceptable? Right now, from his perspective, he is A-#1 Feminist Champion for helping the poor girl feel comfortable in this alien environment of computers and hackers. How can you complain about his attitude when you won't even bother to tell him he has done anything wrong?

Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

This

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 04:24:07 PM
That isn't a study, it is a book. I have not read the book, but I suspect you have not either. The synopsis you gave doesn't say much aof anything about a primary reason there are not more women in computer science is because they are treated poorly in classes. Indeed, what it DOES say about it is this:

Quote..twenty-five years of extensive efforts to promote female participation.

I don't think "humiliating" women in class really falls under estensive efforts to promote female participation.

The book is the result of the study. The information you're looking for was quoted in the Wiki article. And if you'd stop the condescending quote marks, we can continue this conversation. Otherwise, I see no point.

Quote

Who said anything about lying? Not me.

Fine. We'll assume that you didn't mean that statement to be questioning my version.

QuoteThen you are part of the problem. If people do not report discrimination when it is experienced because it may personally make them uncomfortable, then I don't think they have much room to complain about it. As a society, we set up myriad means of addressing pernicious problems like gender discrimination. If you decide it is too personally risky or simply not worth it to use those resources, then why complain about the discrimination? It can't be that bad if it isn't bad enough for you to take advantage of the systems setup specifically to address the issue you experienced.

Because discrimination sucks? Why else would I complain about it? And how bad it was has very little bearing on how I react or not at this moment. What does have bearing on how I react is that I want to get through this program and get a job. I'm not really interested in being the banner-carrier for women's rights right now. What I want is to get paid more than poverty level wages. Once that happens, I'll be happy to shout it from the rooftops. At the moment, however, I'm more concerned with feeding my family.

I'll decide for myself if it's worth rocking the boat to the extent that you're suggesting based on what's right for my situation, not because you feel like it's what I should do based on your opinion and your interpretation.

QuoteAll that being said, you said that you don't think the professor was even being intentionally malicious - so why would you fear him treating you even more unfairly for pointing out to him that his behavior was not acceptable? Right now, from his perspective, he is A-#1 Feminist Champion for helping the poor girl feel comfortable in this alien environment of computers and hackers. How can you complain about his attitude when you won't even bother to tell him he has done anything wrong?

Right now, he thinks he's doing a great job in making me feel comfortable in his class. Who knows how he'll react if I complain to his supervisor?

What I am considering doing, however, is sending him a note letting him know that I would really rather he didn't continue to discuss my gender as if it has any bearing on the class or the classwork. My hope is that he'll recognize my discomfort without feeling threatened, and maybe we can just get on in the class as if my being a woman means nothing, which is exactly the case.

Given that he lacked malice, I don't see the point in taking it beyond that step right now. If it continues, then I will, if it seems appropriate at that time. But ultimately, that's my decision to make based on my assessment of the situation. And while I appreciate your feedback, you'll have to forgive me if I don't happen to agree with all that you've espoused.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

Exactly. Once I have a paycheck, I'll worry about being the Feminist-from-Hell in the IT world.

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 04:51:56 PM
Because discrimination sucks? Why else would I complain about it? And how bad it was has very little bearing on how I react or not at this moment. What does have bearing on how I react is that I want to get through this program and get a job. I'm not really interested in being the banner-carrier for women's rights right now. What I want is to get paid more than poverty level wages. Once that happens, I'll be happy to shout it from the rooftops. At the moment, however, I'm more concerned with feeding my family.

I'll decide for myself if it's worth rocking the boat to the extent that you're suggesting based on what's right for my situation, not because you feel like it's what I should do based on your opinion and your interpretation.

I think that's fine as you definitely don't need to be encouraged to cause drama. :P  Though at the same time, I wonder if his behavior will ever change if no one calls him on it? And again though, I don't think that needs to be you. :hug:

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

But that's also why said guy is going to keep doing this. Only person I could easily see call him out is some wide-eyed/idealistic young co-ed as any other student would adopt the pragmatic attitude.

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:03:29 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

But that's also why said guy is going to keep doing this. Only person I could easily see call him out is some wide-eyed/idealistic young co-ed as any other student would adopt the pragmatic attitude.

Naw, the thing that is going to change that kind of behaviour is female profs in the faculty.

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

Exactly. Once I have a paycheck, I'll worry about being the Feminist-from-Hell in the IT world.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgifsoup.com%2Fwebroot%2Fanimatedgifs%2F1043375_o.gif&hash=c75d8417cc1b28aa626248eec520fff15f7b0329)

She can address it in her course review at the end of the term (assuming they still do that these days).  Plus isn't there a website that lets you write reviews on professors?

But if I were Meri and the whole thing bothered me to the point where I was almost in tears, I'd meet with the instructor during his office hours & calmly, non-threateningly explain to him what he's actually doing. 

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

Exactly. Once I have a paycheck, I'll worry about being the Feminist-from-Hell in the IT world.

Fair enough.

In that case though, I have little sympathy for your observation that "discrimination sucks" as it applies to you personally.

Yes, it does suck. But apparently it doesn't suck all that much, since you aren't interested in doing anything about it, since it might have some extremely slight chance of effecting your schooling in some theoretical manner. As opposed to the entirely and completely non-theoretical manner his patronizing is apparently bothering you, and likely others.

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:15:29 PM

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

Exactly. Once I have a paycheck, I'll worry about being the Feminist-from-Hell in the IT world.

Fair enough.

In that case though, I have little sympathy for your observation that "discrimination sucks" as it applies to you personally.

Yes, it does suck. But apparently it doesn't suck all that much, since you aren't interested in doing anything about it, since it might have some extremely slight chance of effecting your schooling in some theoretical manner. As opposed to the entirely and completely non-theoretical manner his patronizing is apparently bothering you, and likely others.

:lol: @ you B not Meri

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:03:29 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

But that's also why said guy is going to keep doing this. Only person I could easily see call him out is some wide-eyed/idealistic young co-ed as any other student would adopt the pragmatic attitude.

I'm seriously considering just sending him a note saying that while I appreciate his efforts in trying to make me feel more comfortable in his class, I'd really rather my gender wasn't mentioned again.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi34.tinypic.com%2F675b88.jpg&hash=7582a8db72366c79e140b1aba96c8e5c295fd9c0)

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:15:29 PM

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

Exactly. Once I have a paycheck, I'll worry about being the Feminist-from-Hell in the IT world.

Fair enough.

In that case though, I have little sympathy for your observation that "discrimination sucks" as it applies to you personally.

Yes, it does suck. But apparently it doesn't suck all that much, since you aren't interested in doing anything about it, since it might have some extremely slight chance of effecting your schooling in some theoretical manner. As opposed to the entirely and completely non-theoretical manner his patronizing is apparently bothering you, and likely others.

And we're back to fuck you, Berk.

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 05:17:37 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:03:29 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

But that's also why said guy is going to keep doing this. Only person I could easily see call him out is some wide-eyed/idealistic young co-ed as any other student would adopt the pragmatic attitude.

I'm seriously considering just sending him a note saying that while I appreciate his efforts in trying to make me feel more comfortable in his class, I'd really rather my gender wasn't mentioned again.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable approach. Not very dramatic, don't make a big deal about it, hell, you can even imply that it isn't HIM that is the problem, but you know, all those less understanding kids...

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:15:29 PMI have little sympathy for your observation that "discrimination sucks" as it applies to you personally.

This is unsurprising.

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 05:18:51 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:15:29 PM

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

Exactly. Once I have a paycheck, I'll worry about being the Feminist-from-Hell in the IT world.

Fair enough.

In that case though, I have little sympathy for your observation that "discrimination sucks" as it applies to you personally.

Yes, it does suck. But apparently it doesn't suck all that much, since you aren't interested in doing anything about it, since it might have some extremely slight chance of effecting your schooling in some theoretical manner. As opposed to the entirely and completely non-theoretical manner his patronizing is apparently bothering you, and likely others.

And we're back to fuck you, Berk.

Very nice Meri. I'll keep that in mind.

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 05:17:37 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:03:29 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

But that's also why said guy is going to keep doing this. Only person I could easily see call him out is some wide-eyed/idealistic young co-ed as any other student would adopt the pragmatic attitude.

I'm seriously considering just sending him a note saying that while I appreciate his efforts in trying to make me feel more comfortable in his class, I'd really rather my gender wasn't mentioned again.

I wouldn't do the note thing unless he's too intimidating to talk to in person.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 17, 2013, 05:04:25 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:03:29 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 17, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Pragmatism probably. Meri's objective is to learn the stuff and pass the class, not fix the guy.

But that's also why said guy is going to keep doing this. Only person I could easily see call him out is some wide-eyed/idealistic young co-ed as any other student would adopt the pragmatic attitude.

Naw, the thing that is going to change that kind of behaviour is female profs in the faculty.

I think men can manage to not act like douchebags without a woman on the faculty telling them not to act like douchebags.

Besides, why would you even assume that there aren't any women on the faculty now?

Quote from: Jacob on January 17, 2013, 05:19:44 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:15:29 PMI have little sympathy for your observation that "discrimination sucks" as it applies to you personally.

This is unsurprising.

It should not be surprising. Not having sympathy for someone complaining about something they could easily handle on their own if it really bothered them is a pretty normal reaction to have, I think.

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 05:20:49 PM
I wouldn't do the note thing unless he's too intimidating to talk to in person.

Yeah might come off kinda strange.

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:22:11 PM

Quote from: Jacob on January 17, 2013, 05:19:44 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:15:29 PMI have little sympathy for your observation that "discrimination sucks" as it applies to you personally.

This is unsurprising.

It should not be surprising. Not having sympathy for someone complaining about something they could easily handle on their own if it really bothered them is a pretty normal reaction to have, I think.

She can easily handle it? She can easily tell her professor that he's making him feel uncomfortable without a good chance that he'll feel uncomfortable / hold it against her?

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:19:47 PMVery nice Meri. I'll keep that in mind.

You're kind of being a jerk about this Berkut.

I mean, you're a swell guy with a good heart and all that, but you're doing the classic "so you had something unpleasant or discriminatory happen to you? Let's focus on how it's your fault/ how you suck/ how it's YOUR responsibility to fix the situation. Oh, and if you don't agree with me on what you should do, then you pretty much deserve what happened" thing.

Seems reasonable enough to respond with a "fuck you" to that.

What I don't get it what is there to be so afraid of in regards to talking to him, or even going so far as to engaging whatever resources the school has to deal with this kind of thing (I am sure there is a counselor or HR person she could talk to).

She is taking an intro CS course. What is he going to do that would be so terrible that it might impact her ability to earn a paycheck? And does she really have so little faith in her school that she thinks the school would allow him to take reprisals against her for bringing up the issue?

A professor, in class, actively calling out the gender of a student and making clear and unambiguous stereotypical remarks about their ability to do the course work based on their gender is so 40 years ago that it is amazing to me that he hasn't been fired already, or that he doesn't have 20 complaints filed against him. Hell, if *I* was in his class I would complain if I heard him say something like that to another student.

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:25:04 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:22:11 PM

Quote from: Jacob on January 17, 2013, 05:19:44 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:15:29 PMI have little sympathy for your observation that "discrimination sucks" as it applies to you personally.

This is unsurprising.

It should not be surprising. Not having sympathy for someone complaining about something they could easily handle on their own if it really bothered them is a pretty normal reaction to have, I think.

She can easily handle it? She can easily tell her professor that he's making him feel uncomfortable without a good chance that he'll feel uncomfortable / hold it against her?

Yes, she is an adult. She isn't some 18 year old kid who thinks professors are gods or something.

Or she can go to the schools HR department, or whatever resources the school has to handle this kind of thing if she doesn't want to talk to him herself and someone else will do it for her.

My eyes glaze over when you mention reports to HR. :yucky:

I'm happy that you can be so blasé about such issues. Not everyone can.

Quote from: Jacob on January 17, 2013, 05:25:32 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:19:47 PMVery nice Meri. I'll keep that in mind.

You're kind of being a jerk about this Berkut.

I mean, you're a swell guy with a good heart and all that, but you're doing the classic "so you had something unpleasant or discriminatory happen to you? Let's focus on how it's your fault/ how you suck/ how it's YOUR responsibility to fix the situation. Oh, and if you don't agree with me on what you should do, then you pretty much deserve what happened" thing.

Seems reasonable enough to respond with a "fuck you" to that.

Except that I haven't done anything of the kind.

I don't think she has to do anything at all. She can ignore it, do something about it, get pissed, whatever. Entirely her choice.

I am simply stating that *I*, personally, me, have no sympathy for someone who is apparently this upset by being treated badly, who will then turn around and refuse to do anything about it, especially when doing something about it is  Surely I ahve that right, correct? I don't HAVE to feel bad for Meri, do I?

A) Not very hard,
B) Almost completely safe, and
C) Meri is an adult. I've met her. I know what kind of person she is, and she isn't the type to get all terrified of calling someone out when they are like a dumbass.

To coin her phrase, I do in fact think she should get he big girl panties on and do something about it other than bitch on languish. Absent that *and I recognize that SHE has every right to do nothing if in fact that is what she wants*, then *I* have every right to not care that some dumbass teacher somewhere is, well, a dumbass. Does the fact that I don't sympathize for her plight warrant me being told to fuck off? If so, I guess I deserve it, but in that case it doesn't hurt all that much.

I also don't buy the idea that said teacher is indicative of anything systemic in the entire industry of CS education in America, wiki articles notwithstanding. Mostly I think it is indicative that there are individuals out there who are still stuck in the 1950s. But we knew that, right?

Quote from: merithyn on January 17, 2013, 10:40:55 AMThe part that really pisses me off is that I know that any success that I have he's going to put it down to my being "organized" rather than anything else.  :mad:

Not a bad thing in itself, actually. I would never, ever hire a "disorganized" programmer. No matter how clever someone is, if nobody else can figure out what the hell he was doing he's got no place writing code.

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:34:54 PM
Mostly I think it is indicative that there are individuals out there who are still stuck in the 1950s. But we knew that, right?

HEY NOW

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:31:56 PM
My eyes glaze over when you mention reports to HR. :yucky:

Well I don't know what the actual process is, but I am sure there is one. Every school of higher learning has entire battalions of people to make sure nobody is being discriminated against, right?

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 17, 2013, 05:04:25 PM
Naw, the thing that is going to change that kind of behaviour is female profs in the faculty.

Not sure what that has to do with it.  There are female science and math profs out there, or does he require there actually be one within a mile radius of him personally?

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:40:22 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:31:56 PM
My eyes glaze over when you mention reports to HR. :yucky:

Well I don't know what the actual process is, but I am sure there is one. Every school of higher learning has entire battalions of people to make sure nobody is being discriminated against, right?

HR is a department of useless devils.

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:42:55 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:40:22 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:31:56 PM
My eyes glaze over when you mention reports to HR. :yucky:

Well I don't know what the actual process is, but I am sure there is one. Every school of higher learning has entire battalions of people to make sure nobody is being discriminated against, right?

HR is a department of useless devils.

:yes:

Quote from: Valmy on January 17, 2013, 05:40:49 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 17, 2013, 05:04:25 PM
Naw, the thing that is going to change that kind of behaviour is female profs in the faculty.

Not sure what that has to do with it.  There are female science and math profs out there, or does he require there actually be one within a mile radius of him personally?

I thought CC's point was that if there were more (or some) of them around this professor, they wouldn't put up with his behavior and he'd stop or get booted. After all, as colleagues there would be less of a power differential. That's how I took it anyway.

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:40:22 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:31:56 PM
My eyes glaze over when you mention reports to HR. :yucky:

Well I don't know what the actual process is, but I am sure there is one. Every school of higher learning has entire battalions of people to make sure nobody is being discriminated against, right?

Fo sho.  At UD I always wanted to walk in the door marked "Department of Women's Affairs" and see if it matched everything I had built up in my mind :ph34r:

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 05:50:02 PM

Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2013, 05:40:22 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:31:56 PM
My eyes glaze over when you mention reports to HR. :yucky:

Well I don't know what the actual process is, but I am sure there is one. Every school of higher learning has entire battalions of people to make sure nobody is being discriminated against, right?

Fo sho.  At UD I always wanted to walk in the door marked "Department of Women's Affairs" and see if it matched everything I had built up in my mind :ph34r:

You need some Space Moose.

http://www.hackcanada.com/canadian/zines/spacemoose/polisci.gif

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:43:54 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 17, 2013, 05:40:49 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 17, 2013, 05:04:25 PM
Naw, the thing that is going to change that kind of behaviour is female profs in the faculty.

Not sure what that has to do with it.  There are female science and math profs out there, or does he require there actually be one within a mile radius of him personally?

I thought CC's point was that if there were more (or some) of them around this professor, they wouldn't put up with his behavior and he'd stop or get booted. After all, as colleagues there would be less of a power differential. That's how I took it anyway.

Yep, having more female CS profs would change the culture of that faculty.   

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 05:13:58 PM

But if I were Meri and the whole thing bothered me to the point where I was almost in tears, I'd meet with the instructor during his office hours & calmly, non-threateningly explain to him what he's actually doing. 

This is the proper way to handle it, IMO--if someone's behavoir is bothering you, and you don't think that there's malice on their part, just tell them it bothers you and talk it out informally like reasonable adults.  Do it in person, not by sending a note--putting it in writing implies that you don't want to actually discuss it informally, and for God's sakes don't call him out on it in class--that'll just put him on the defensive and make it adversarial, plus he won't want to be seen as giving into you by the rest of the class.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 17, 2013, 07:24:30 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 17, 2013, 05:43:54 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 17, 2013, 05:40:49 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 17, 2013, 05:04:25 PM
Naw, the thing that is going to change that kind of behaviour is female profs in the faculty.

Not sure what that has to do with it.  There are female science and math profs out there, or does he require there actually be one within a mile radius of him personally?

I thought CC's point was that if there were more (or some) of them around this professor, they wouldn't put up with his behavior and he'd stop or get booted. After all, as colleagues there would be less of a power differential. That's how I took it anyway.

Yep, having more female CS profs would change the culture of that faculty.   

Wow - how did you suddenly conclude that the "culture of the faculty" needs changing?

It is one professor, and from what we know, nobody is even aware that he is doing anything at all wrong, since nobody that we are aware of has ever even complained to anyone about it.