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QuoteUnrest drags Spain towards buried unpleasant truths
"Independence for Catalonia? Over my dead body... and those of many soldiers." That was how Francisco Alaman reacted to the 1.5 million strong demonstration in Barcelona last month, with many calling for independence for the region.
It's a view. Quite strongly held not just on the right in Spain but on the centre left. However Alaman is a serving soldier: a colonel. And it wasn't the only incendiary thing he said.
In the week tens of thousands of protesters surrounded parliament, he told the website Alerta Digital:
"The current situation is very similar to 1936, but without blood. Unfortunately, the data indicate that the situation will only get worse in the coming months and years."
Economics journalists have learned, (thanks to the work of the FT's Gillian Tett), to ask a very brutal and searching question as we parachute into the latest theatre of crisis: look for the social silence. What is staring you in the face but nobody wants to talk about it?
Well Colonel Alaman has answered it.
During the early years of Spanish democracy, forgetting about the Civil War (1936-39) was not just a psychological necessity - it was a political choice.
The "pact of silence" instituted after the fall of General Franco was seen as a price worth paying for rapid, peaceful transition to a functioning democracy - a democracy that, moreover, found space to accommodate a strong, previously clandestine Communist Party alongside the rapidly moderating socialists of the PSOE (Spanish Socialist Workers' Party).
The approach was codified into law, with the 1977 Amnesty Law guaranteeing a blanket immunity from prosecution for those suspected of crimes against humanity during the Franco era and the Civil War.
With Spain now reeling from austerity, its riot police dispensing truncheon blows and rubber bullets against demonstrators and passers-by, the "pact of silence" is falling apart.
Historical memory confronted
The images of violence - not all of them make it onto mainstream television, but the internet does the job - are forcing Spanish people to confront historical memory in a way the various campaigns and lawsuits about the Franco era have not.
For the austerity, and the protests, have summoned the spectre of a clash that defined Spain in the modern period - the clash between liberal modernity and religious, monarchic hierarchy.
This problem haunted the writing of the early modern poets and political theorists in Spain: "A dead, hollow, worm-eaten Spain and a new, eager, ambitious Spain that tends toward life," as the historian Santos Julia puts it.
It's clear now that these two cultures within Spain - as visceral and rooted as the "southern" and "liberal" cultures in the US, or the "intellectual Russia versus peasant Russia" problem - never went away.
But the culture war had seemed suppressed by wealth: the booming economy, the rapid liberalisation of society, and the massive investment in modern infrastructure allowed them to co-exist.
For 30 years after the fall of Franco it was a different Spain - a modernised economy, linked to the European core by its single currency and the Schengen agreement, and benefiting on top of that from its links to the rapidly expanding economies of Latin America.
When the economy took a nosedive, and the first austerity plans were launched, it was striking that the political and social settlement seemed actually to be helping mitigate the effects.
Despite the 50% youth joblessness figures, the family took the strain: people moved in with their parents, borrowed their grandmother's car; in small towns and villages, barter systems sprung up.
And as with high finance the illusion was that complexity reduces risk. The Spanish constitutional settlement, which makes Opus Dei and Pedro Almodovar films two of the country's best known cultural exports, was complex.
Spain's regional government system would also act as a shield to the needy: less than six months ago the Socialist/Left coalition government in Andalucia told me confidently it would soften the impact of austerity measures demanded by the centre. Now it is bust.
'Two Spains'
Now in rapid succession, numerous signifiers of political crisis have appeared: acute class divisions, regional politics, street violence, outright civil disobedience and un-addressed corruption; the removal of migrants' rights to free health care; the sight of uniformed firefighters clashing with riot cops, helmet to helmet, on the streets of Madrid.
With it, you get the resurgence of references to the bloody conflict in which the "two Spains" tried to kill each other.
To the right there are people like Col Alaman.
To the left you get the camisetta Republicana. It's a version of the Spanish soccer team's red and yellow strip with the addition of a big swathe of republican purple: the colours of the flag Franco tore down in 1936.
I first saw one of these in the village of Colmenar, 40km north of Malaga. When Mayor Sanchez Gordillo's roving protest march arrived in the town, I noticed people wearing this unusual football shirt.
The shirt was produced in 2011 as a limited edition for enthusiasts. Now you are beginning to see it a lot around protests.
Beneath this battle of signifiers there is a serious potential for fragmentation in Spain.
Last week the Catalan government called snap elections. The ruling party - the Convergence and Union party - contains a strong minority which advocates outright independence, though informed observers think its leader Artur Mas, will use the election result to extract maximum fiscal autonomy from Madrid.
The smaller far left in Catalonia also supports independence.
The move follows a demonstration that saw 1.5 million Catalans take to the streets, with many calling for the region to become the next country to join the European Union.
Catalan threat
Analysts are split over the significance of the Catalan move.
As the second richest region, with a GDP of 220bn euros a year, it has always been seen as an empty threat to go for full independence, the cynics saying Catalan flirtation with slogans around secession are mere posturing to gain a better fiscal settlement with Madrid.
Others on the ground are saying "this time they mean it".
Either way, the Catalan gambit has triggered responses in Madrid that have shocked a generation lulled by the "pact of silence".
There is Colonel Alaman, threatening to defend "the non-negotiable principle of Spain's unity...even with our lives."
Next, the AME, an association of retired military personnel, which insisted that "any flicker of secession to be suppressed": those calling for it "will have to respond with all rigour to the grave accusation of high treason under the jurisdiction of military tribunals".
Before the Madrid government has to deal with Catalonia, however, it also has to face two regional elections: in Galicia, which the ruling PP also runs and should hold, and the Basque region - where it is getting complicated.
The Basque Country has traditionally been run by the Basque Nationalist party - a centre right party.
At the last election the socialists won, but in the past year left nationalist forces have managed to form a very effective electoral bloc called Euskal Herria Bildu.
Bildu, for short, is led by figures formerly associated with Herri Batasuna, the political wing of ETA (making it something like a cross between Sinn Fein and the Greek Syriza party).
It currently is running neck and neck with the right wing nationalists and could win - precipitating a constitutional crisis with Bilbao that then sets the scene for one with Barcelona.
Thinking the unthinkable
Before the austerity hit there were a whole series of unthinkables in Spain: that the Civil War divisions, of right and left, could ever be reopened; that the military could ever again intervene into politics (the last time, the Tejero coup of 1981 descended into high farce); that the modernization and growth that Spain enjoyed could ever be reversed; that the federal state could never shatter.
But numerous unthinkables have already begun to happen: the effervescent lifestyle associated with the Spanish miracle has dissipated.
Millions of super-cool Spanish youths, who were supposed to be "apolitical" took to the streets in May 2011 in a protest that invented the Occupy tactic. The banks are bust. And the Partido Popular - which always resisted a bailout - is being forced to take one.
Mariano Rajoy's government is now committed to in excess of 90bn euros of austerity in the next two years.
It will work only if the economy shrinks by a relatively meagre 0.5% next year: most commentators believe the shrinkage will be triple that.
And it is a budget that, whatever the best intentions of its designers, hits the poorest in Spain hardest: it hits public sector workers, all wage earners, and only avoids hitting pensioners by dipping into a contingency fund that is supposed to cushion them.
Wherever you go in Spain - from angry Barcelona to angry Bilbao to angry Andalucia, Valencia, the seething estates at the edges of Madrid - you hear outrage at what is seen as economic injustice: hitting the incomes and services of the poorest while bailing out the banks that had become political playthings for the elite.
The unrest of this month certainly moved the markets: bond investors are split, now, between those most worried about the sovereign debt crisis and those trying to price in the risk of state break up or violent unrest.
"These are risks we're used to pricing in the emerging world," bond analyst Nicolas Spiro told me last week; "but not in the developed world."
The crisis has got some commentators asking, is Spain slipping the way of Greece?
But, having reported both situations, I think this is the wrong question.
Greek approach
In Greece the Civil War happened a decade later than Spain and though vicious, took place as part of the onset of the Cold War.
The "story" of the civil war sits alongside the story of Communist-led resistance to Nazism; and the "percentages agreement" between Churchill and Stalin, which placed Greece in the Western camp.
In Greece the Civil War is openly talked about.
In some villages it is still common for the different parties - and by implication the competing survivors from the conflict - to sit in separate kafeneions.
Conversations among those who survived the conflict often drift towards it, as if it were yesterday. And there has been no formal pact of forgetting.
The fact that Greeks overthrew the colonels' regime in 1974 (and staged a "Greek Nuremberg" for the deposed officers) allows Greek people to calibrate modern rightism and leftism against some level of historical accounting.
Contrast this to Spain.
In the Spanish Civil War, the people of Spain were abandoned to a fascist coup by democratic countries more worried about communism than fascism. The British navy famously stood by while Franco's navy sank British merchant ships, while Hitler's Condor Legion bombed Guernica.
Consequent on Spain's neutrality in World War II, Franco was tolerated within the post-war order. And once he died, a managed transition to democracy occurred which left the perpetrators of torture, massacre and more unpunished.
All these factors allowed the events of the Civil War itself to be officially forgotten: there is, even now, no official record of the atrocities.
Corruption
The relevance to today is this: the peaceful transition created a new political system in which the old elite populated both sides of the political spectrum - but without any formal accounting of the events during fascism.
Today it is hard not to see that as one of the roots of the corruption that, as right wing daily ABC said two years ago "is drowning Spain".
It is facile to search for "national" sources of corruption: corruption happens in a market economy everywhere it is allowed to.
It's been rife, as we now know, in the London and New York financial systems; it was present in the German car industry; it is present across the Italian system of government.
However in Spain the post-Franco settlement gave corruption a particular form.
There is heavy and open nepotism in the appointment of business executives; there is - say foreign business people - an unstated regulatory bias in favour of Spanish-owned large companies.
And there has been mismanagement of resources, leading to the wasteful spending and lax planning that has left numerous Spanish regions with white elephant projects and tens of thousands of unsellable homes, with local banks driven to insolvency as it all went bad.
The 60bn euros bailout of the banks currently underway under-estimates the economic price of such mismanagement considerably.
If Spain is not yet Greece in the intensity of street conflict, and the collapse of old party loyalties, there are other indices on which it is has to cause concern: the potential for a showdown between Madrid and Catalonia is one; the potential for a clash with a government led by left-nationalists in Bilbao is another; the rise of high-profile civil disobedience campaigns such as that launched by Sanchez Gordillo in Andalucia.
And the long-standing cultural and political tendency for movements to bypass official power and set up alternative power structures of their own.
The Greek left was always communist - ie hierarchical: it is even now - in the opposition parties Syriza and the KKE, (and the Democratic Left inside the ruling coalition), shaped by Marxism.
By contrast Spanish radical movements were heavily shaped by anarchism and anti-clericalism: you can see this even in the current movement of the jornaleros - farm workers - in Andalucia, whose distrust of the main socialist party the PSOE goes back, not to last year, but as one told me, "to 1931".
Panglossian attitude
The problem is not that Spain is a "young democracy": young democracies can be vigorous, culturally revolutionary, fun places to be.
No, the problem is that, as Spanish people gaze at TV images of metre-long truncheons being wielded against passers-by in a Metro station, the discourse tends to head straight to where, for 30 years, they have avoided it heading.
In his interview with Alerta Digital, Colonel Alaman gave a very clear example of this. Asked whether the Catalans are "inevitably" nationalist, Col Alaman said:
"I rebel against the claim that the Catalans have always been nationalists... The Catalan volunteers who made war on the [Francoist] side were far superior in number to those who defended the republic. The Blue Division [a Spanish unit in the Wehrmacht] had nearly 500 volunteers from the region..."
When the reference point for the Catalans' alleged "non-nationalism" becomes their preparedness to fight for Nazi Germany and General Franco, you know the "pact of silence" is not really working.
Spain has the power to explode in a way that Greece does not.
It is a major global economy. Its hitherto strong post-fascist political settlement is rapidly weakening. Its survival as a federal state is under threat.
And there is a perception factor. The Greek political class knows it has messed up; it is never surprised to see negative GDP projections surpassed on the downside; it is reconciled to the emergence of radical parties of the left and right and knows the parties of the centre will have to be reinvented.
But in my numerous contacts with Spanish politicians and economists during this crisis there has been an insistence - which crosses party boundaries - that "everything is alright": Spain is really a strong economy, the white elephant projects are really "infrastructure" which will prove a good investment in the end.
The deficit reduction plan will work. On good days they wake up and convince themselves there will not even need to be formal conditions set in Brussels, Frankfurt and Washington DC.
Is it facile, dangerous even, for foreign journalists to raise this problem of historical memory and immature democracy?
When I've raised it with Spanish politicians I've sometimes felt that it is about as welcome as "mentioning the War" in Fawlty Towers.
However, Col Alaman has mentioned it.
So have the protesters, who continually designate the European Union now a "Fourth Reich".
And we are approaching a crunch point. After five years of property bust, and a year of abject downturn, the Spanish economy is about to be hit by an almighty shock: austerity.
It might work, and it might not.
Right now Mariano Rajoy's government is running Spain as if it is inevitable that the medicine will work; that a Greek-style implosion, with the implosion of mainstream parties and the collapse of social order, is impossible.
For the past six months in the euro crisis I have said: "Spain is the unexploded bomb, Greece the detonator."
You need to move the bomb and the detonator away from each other as far as possible in time and space, so that when Greece "goes off", it will not take down Italy and Spain with it.
Mario Draghi's 6 September bailout proposal - the OMT - is designed to do just that.
Many EU politicians would be at best agnostic about Greek exit from the euro once Spain is stabilised.
But what the politics of protest do, and the politics of regionalism and nationalism accentuate, is to create unpredictability in Spain itself. The danger is that - as Rajoy prevaricates over bailout, and the political temperature crisis - Spain becomes both the bomb and the detonator.
Defusing it is still possible. But we've had a sense last week of what the explosion would look like.
Paul Mason, Economics editor, Newsnight Article written by Paul Mason Pau
Quoteas visceral and rooted as the "southern" and "liberal" cultures in the US
They're really weakening their title thesis here. :rolleyes:
Ah, Tim's title, not theirs. :lol: Still, the author does mention the possibility of Catalunya seceding from Spain.
Catalonia seceding from Spain proper isn't entirely out of the question, but I doubt it'd spark another civil war. It would almost certainly lead to the Basques following suit or at least pressuring for more autonomy.
It sounds far more likely than Manhattan and San Francisco seceding from "Jesusland" as Josq so eloquently puts it.
I support Basque independence.
Yeah, I went there.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 09:27:05 PM
I support Basque independence.
Yeah, I went there.
Why? What good would it do? Splitting Europe into Micro-States for no reason only serves to make the continents problems worse not better. The regions of Europe need to be coordinating more in order to meet the challenges they are facing not splitting into pieces to satisfy nationalist douchebaggery.
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2012, 09:29:40 PM
Why? What good would it do? Splitting Europe into Micro-States for no reason only serves to make the continents problems worse not better. The regions of Europe need to be coordinating more in order to meet the challenges they are facing not splitting into pieces to satisfy nationalist douchebaggery.
Basque independence stops Basque bombs.
Paul Mason's like a horseman of the apocalypse for Eurozone states. If he turns up it's time to get your money into some German banks.
Shelf, you should go there and be the Orwell of the 2010s.
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2012, 09:42:36 PM
Shelf, you should go there and be the Orwell of the 2010s.
I am entirely in support of Catalan independence :wub:
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2012, 09:42:36 PM
Shelf, you should go there and be the Orwell of the 2010s.
And write an overwrought apology?
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 03, 2012, 09:43:23 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2012, 09:42:36 PM
Shelf, you should go there and be the Orwell of the 2010s.
I am entirely in support of Catalan independence :wub:
Are the rights of the peopel of Catalan being abused in someway? What has the Spanish government done to justify a separation?
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2012, 09:29:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 09:27:05 PM
I support Basque independence.
Yeah, I went there.
Why? What good would it do? Splitting Europe into Micro-States for no reason only serves to make the continents problems worse not better. The regions of Europe need to be coordinating more in order to meet the challenges they are facing not splitting into pieces to satisfy nationalist douchebaggery.
You have asserted this many times, but you have failed to demonstrate how or why it is true.
Some of Europe's most successful post-communist states have been very, very small, such as Slovenia or the Baltics.
I support whatever side is fighting against the commies/anarchists.
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
You have asserted this many times, but you have failed to demonstrate how or why it is true.
Trying to manage a singular economic zone with 25 soveriegn governments has worked like a charm so far. I fail to see the advantages of adding more. Particularly for no reason at all.
QuoteSome of Europe's most successful post-communist states have been very, very small, such as Slovenia or the Baltics.
Yeah and some of their biggest failures have been so far as well. But size has nothing to do with how successful a country is. I am talking about coordinating an integrated economy with a common currency. An economy where some of its smaller members have shown tremendous power to destabilize. Your point does not really have anything to do with that so I am unsure why it was brought up.
Quote from: derspiess on October 03, 2012, 10:05:05 PM
I support whatever side is fighting against the commies/anarchists.
You know, sometimes a little anarchy is good for the soul. Helps people find their moral compass. Amazing the clarity of vision a few well-placed explosive devices can provide.
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
Some of Europe's most successful post-communist states have been very, very small, such as Slovenia or the Baltics.
In fairness most of the Baltics have suffered huge recessions and Slovenia needs an EZ bailout. On the upside, they got into the Euro - so well done them.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 09:27:05 PM
I support Basque independence.
Yeah, I went there.
I knew I loved you.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 03, 2012, 10:21:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
Some of Europe's most successful post-communist states have been very, very small, such as Slovenia or the Baltics.
In fairness most of the Baltics have suffered huge recessions and Slovenia needs an EZ bailout. On the upside, they got into the Euro - so well done them.
Yeah, the Baltics had massive negative GDP growth in 2008/9 and are only slowly recovering, with unemployment over 20% in each country.
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2012, 09:29:40 PM
Why? What good would it do? Splitting Europe into Micro-States for no reason only serves to make the continents problems worse not better. The regions of Europe need to be coordinating more in order to meet the challenges they are facing not splitting into pieces to satisfy nationalist douchebaggery.
Unity through disunity.
The more the old nations are split the more federalised the small new nations can become.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 09:27:05 PM
I support Basque independence.
Yeah, I went there.
But you've always supported terrorists, so long as they're white. What's new?
Quote from: Ideologue on October 03, 2012, 11:51:39 PM
But you've always supported terrorists, so long as they're white. What's new?
As katmai and I can attest, Basques aren't always characterized as white. <_<
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 11:54:40 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on October 03, 2012, 11:51:39 PM
But you've always supported terrorists, so long as they're white. What's new?
As katmai and I can attest, Basques aren't always characterized as white. <_<
Depends on the person, I'd say. Their version of Mitt Romney is fairly white.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fdf%2FMiguel_Indurain_en_la_Vuelta_a_Castilla_y_Le%25C3%25B3n_2009.jpg%2F800px-Miguel_Indurain_en_la_Vuelta_a_Castilla_y_Le%25C3%25B3n_2009.jpg&hash=728f8ec4d238dae6c2e5b07a551abc3056fd1f49)
Meh, he just doesn't get out enough. 2 hours in the sun, and he'd be brown as a berry.
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2012, 10:18:21 PM
But size has nothing to do with how successful a country is.
But you are the one who said
Quote from: ValmySplitting Europe into Micro-States for no reason only serves to make the continents problems worse not better.
You have constantly asserted that small countries are bound to fail.
I think the evidence on that is less than complete.
Coming from Canada... assertions that the breakup of the country is unthinkable is actually not very helpful. It only empowers the extremists. When you say 'okay you can separate - but then what' helps to bring the discussion back to reality/
Are all of our Spaniards going to be on the same side? :unsure:
Larch vs Iorm in the Languish Civil War?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 11:54:40 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on October 03, 2012, 11:51:39 PM
But you've always supported terrorists, so long as they're white. What's new?
As katmai and I can attest, Basques aren't always characterized as white. <_<
The european and american scales of "what is white" are very different. A persian friend of mine from texas who loved straight edge and hard core punk found that in america he could go to the nazi skinhead concerts in america without any problems, when he went to berlin, however, they immediated identified him by his large nose and chased him off. The commie and antifa skinheads accepted him in both cases, but since he was one of the 1% he didn't really fit in there either.
The point is that he went from being white in america to being black in europe; this was a shock to him.
Yeah, Spanish are Latin, not white.
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 05:28:28 AM
Yeah, Spanish are Latin, not white.
Basques aren't Spanish.
And of course Spaniards are white. White isn't just Anglo-Saxon or Nordic.
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 05:28:28 AM
Yeah, Spanish are Latin, not white.
White (Caucasian) is by far the larger category of the two, and contains the former as a subset.
Nordics, Germanic, Slavs, Latins, and many West Asian and some north African ethnicities fall under the category.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 04, 2012, 06:58:35 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 05:28:28 AM
Yeah, Spanish are Latin, not white.
White (Caucasian) is by far the larger category of the two, and contains the former as a subset.
Nordics, Germanic, Slavs, Latins, and many West Asian and some north African ethnicities fall under the category.
White and caucasian are not the same thing. White is a sub-category of caucasian.
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2012, 11:40:53 PM
Unity through disunity.
The more the old nations are split the more federalised the small new nations can become.
Or the more weak and ineffectual as you'll suddenly have more and more voices that demand to be heard.
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 07:16:42 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 04, 2012, 06:58:35 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 05:28:28 AM
Yeah, Spanish are Latin, not white.
White (Caucasian) is by far the larger category of the two, and contains the former as a subset.
Nordics, Germanic, Slavs, Latins, and many West Asian and some north African ethnicities fall under the category.
White and caucasian are not the same thing. White is a sub-category of caucasian.
Not really sure it makes sense to give your own nitpick about frivolous concepts like race.
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2012, 12:16:33 AM
You have constantly asserted that small countries are bound to fail.
No but the international system is maintained by large countries. The smaller ones just ride the coattails of the system (or be taken down by the system). The European countries breaking apart is going to make the Euro-zone, and the world economy, more unstable.
A system comprised of small countries is bound to fail. But a small country can do great so long as there are other countries around to do the heavy lifting.
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 05:28:28 AM
Yeah, Spanish are Latin, not white.
You have got to be fucking kidding me.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2012, 07:39:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 05:28:28 AM
Yeah, Spanish are Latin, not white.
You have got to be fucking kidding me.
It's Josq, sometimes all you can do is shrug and move on.
QuoteYou have got to be fucking kidding me.
Nope. That's the way things are.
That's not to say being non-white means they're lesser people or anything, race has been proven to be rather unscientific to say the least, but Spanish people generally aren't regarded as white.
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 07:25:47 AM
Not really sure it makes sense to give your own nitpick about frivolous concepts like race.
Yeah, its frivolous and unimportant. But that's languish and that's the road things went down.
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 08:27:17 AM
[Nope. That's the way things are.
Spanish people generally aren't regarded as white.
When you say "generally", you mean in a small mining town in the north-east of England rather than in the normal world where FFS obviously the Spanish are white?
Spaniards, Italians and Greeks are very clearly not white, and "latin" is as good a term as any. :mellow:
This needs a poll. But I'd say Spaniards, Italians, and maybe even Greeks would qualify as white, for whatever that's worth.
I'd marry a dago or wop before I'd pollute myself with a Geordie.
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 07:25:47 AM
Not really sure it makes sense to give your own nitpick about frivolous concepts like race.
We're talking about people who use terms like "white" to refer to "race" here...
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2012, 10:01:41 AM
This needs a poll. But I'd say Spaniards, Italians, and maybe even Greeks would qualify as white, for whatever that's worth.
Have any scientific measurements been performed to answer this question definitively?
Quote from: DGuller on October 04, 2012, 10:10:09 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2012, 10:01:41 AM
This needs a poll. But I'd say Spaniards, Italians, and maybe even Greeks would qualify as white, for whatever that's worth.
Have any scientific measurements been performed to answer this question definitively?
There you go with the stalking & whatnot.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 04, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
I'd marry a dago or wop before I'd pollute myself with a Geordie.
That's what I did. A DagoWopMick in fact :mellow:
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2012, 09:24:49 AM
Spaniards, Italians and Greeks are very clearly not white, and "latin" is as good a term as any. :mellow:
No it is an idiotic term. Among many others we already use that term to describe people in Latin America regardless of their race.
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2012, 11:02:01 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 04, 2012, 10:10:09 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2012, 10:01:41 AM
This needs a poll. But I'd say Spaniards, Italians, and maybe even Greeks would qualify as white, for whatever that's worth.
Have any scientific measurements been performed to answer this question definitively?
There you go with the stalking & whatnot.
Get a life.
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2012, 11:40:53 PM
Unity through disunity.
The more the old nations are split the more federalised the small new nations can become.
My thought exactly. A real federation can't emerge until the old states have been sufficiently weakened. When that happens, either through financial bankrupcy or social dislocation - or both, you'll see more regions breaking apart and it will be far easier to create a super state. Could it be the plan of the 'powers that be'?
G.
Quote from: Grallon on October 04, 2012, 11:45:19 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2012, 11:40:53 PM
Unity through disunity.
The more the old nations are split the more federalised the small new nations can become.
My thought exactly. A real federation can't emerge until the old states have been sufficiently weakened. When that happens, either through financial bankrupcy or social dislocation - or both, you'll see more regions breaking apart and it will be far easier to create a super state. Could it be the plan of the 'powers that be'?
G.
Perhaps but again what's to prevent the federation from getting weekend as now there would be scores and scores of voices clamoring to be heard.
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2012, 10:01:41 AM
This needs a poll. But I'd say Spaniards, Italians, and maybe even Greeks would qualify as white, for whatever that's worth.
Perhaps "mediterannean" would be a better term, since your typical Spaniard or Greek looks very much the same as your typical resident on the other side of the Med.
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2012, 09:29:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 09:27:05 PM
I support Basque independence.
Yeah, I went there.
Why? What good would it do? Splitting Europe into Micro-States for no reason only serves to make the continents problems worse not better. The regions of Europe need to be coordinating more in order to meet the challenges they are facing not splitting into pieces to satisfy nationalist douchebaggery.
small is beautiful.
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2012, 04:13:54 PM
Perhaps "mediterannean" would be a better term, since your typical Spaniard or Greek looks very much the same as your typical resident on the other side of the Med.
I claim them all in the name of Honky-Crackerness!
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2012, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2012, 10:01:41 AM
This needs a poll. But I'd say Spaniards, Italians, and maybe even Greeks would qualify as white, for whatever that's worth.
Perhaps "mediterannean" would be a better term, since your typical Spaniard or Greek looks very much the same as your typical resident on the other side of the Med.
For Greeks I'd agree but Spaniards seem a bit whiter to me. As do northern Italians.
I can't believe you guys are having a serious discussion about the whiteness of Spaniards. :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2012, 07:38:04 AM
No but the international system is maintained by large countries. The smaller ones just ride the coattails of the system (or be taken down by the system). The European countries breaking apart is going to make the Euro-zone, and the world economy, more unstable.
A system comprised of small countries is bound to fail. But a small country can do great so long as there are other countries around to do the heavy lifting.
On the other hand, one of the greatest strengths that Europe as a whole has had historically was its diversity and the "smallness" of its states. With power decentralized, it allowed them to conduct hundreds of social experiments simultaneously and find the best solutions to public problems. You put them all into one big bucket and that advantage is wiped out.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2012, 04:29:29 PM
I can't believe you guys are having a serious discussion about the whiteness of Spaniards. :lol:
-_-
It's not as if being "not white" is a bad thing. I don't mean to denegrate our spanish posters. But their skin tone just isn't "white".
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2012, 04:35:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2012, 04:29:29 PM
I can't believe you guys are having a serious discussion about the whiteness of Spaniards. :lol:
-_-
It's not as if being "not white" is a bad thing. I don't mean to denegrate our spanish posters. But their skin tone just isn't "white".
No skin is actually white, saving perhaps those without pigment.
And besides I'd wager there's nearly as great a range of skin tones amongst a 'race' as there are between these 'races'.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2012, 04:29:29 PM
I can't believe you guys are having a serious discussion about the whiteness of Spaniards. :lol:
Well, in US, we do have a history of making a distinction. In most place white is still subdivided into "non-Hispanic" and "but not really" subcategories.
Whiteness is decided on an individual basis, not on national origin. Many Spaniards are white. Antonio Banderas is clearly not.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 04:50:09 PM
Whiteness is decided on an individual basis, not on national origin. Many Spaniards are white. Antonio Banderas is clearly not.
By whom, the Whiteness Judge ?
Well, this took a turn for the stupid.
Quote from: Grallon on October 04, 2012, 11:45:19 AM
My thought exactly. A real federation can't emerge until the old states have been sufficiently weakened. When that happens, either through financial bankrupcy or social dislocation - or both, you'll see more regions breaking apart and it will be far easier to create a super state. Could it be the plan of the 'powers that be'?
G.
The more fractious and disunited the members of the federation are the stronger you'll need the federal government to be to actually get anything of substance done. As it is there's hardly any political will to create a stronger EU government.
Quote from: mongers on October 04, 2012, 04:52:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 04:50:09 PM
Whiteness is decided on an individual basis, not on national origin. Many Spaniards are white. Antonio Banderas is clearly not.
By whom, the Whiteness Judge ?
Your eyes should suffice.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 04, 2012, 04:54:05 PM
Well, this took a turn for the stupid.
Look who caused it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2012, 04:29:29 PM
I can't believe you guys are having a serious discussion about the whiteness of Spaniards. :lol:
This is Languish!
Quote from: Razgovory on October 04, 2012, 04:54:05 PM
Well, this took a turn for the stupid.
This is Languish!
My skin is the color of a cardboard box.
Quote from: FunkMonk on October 04, 2012, 05:31:00 PM
My skin is the color of a cardboard box.
Dry or wet cardboard?
Dry not wet. Yuck. :yucky:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 05:21:42 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 04, 2012, 04:52:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 04:50:09 PM
Whiteness is decided on an individual basis, not on national origin. Many Spaniards are white. Antonio Banderas is clearly not.
By whom, the Whiteness Judge ?
Your eyes should suffice.
But what if my eyes aren't correctly calibrated ? :(
Quote from: FunkMonk on October 04, 2012, 05:32:31 PM
Dry not wet. Yuck. :yucky:
In other words, dried up dog turd color.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 04, 2012, 05:34:01 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on October 04, 2012, 05:32:31 PM
Dry not wet. Yuck. :yucky:
In other words, dried up dog turd color.
No, cardboard box, not dog turd. I'm not Indian for chrissakes. :rolleyes:
Quote from: katmai on October 04, 2012, 05:42:44 PMIn other words, dried up dog turd color.
aka Garbon color?[/quote]
It took a turn for the stupid and it looks like we're just hit some straight road and switched on cruise control.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 04, 2012, 12:10:13 AM
Meh, he just doesn't get out enough. 2 hours in the sun, and he'd be brown as a berry.
:lol:
Yes, professional cyclists are notorious for their fear of the Sun.
Quote from: katmai on October 04, 2012, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 04, 2012, 04:54:05 PM
Well, this took a turn for the stupid.
This is Languish!
No kidding!
Quote from: Jacob on October 04, 2012, 05:50:01 PM
Quote from: katmai on October 04, 2012, 05:42:44 PMIn other words, dried up dog turd color.
aka Garbon color?
It took a turn for the stupid and it looks like we're just hit some straight road and switched on cruise control.
[/quote]
I will drive this thread into a ditch.
My wife's family is a mix of Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, French Basque and, eh, a little Irish. They're as white as I am.
Wife tans really well, though.
And by the way, the BBC are idiots.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 04, 2012, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 04, 2012, 04:54:05 PM
Well, this took a turn for the stupid.
Look who caused it.
CDM? He was the one who brought up the question. :huh:
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 07:16:42 AM
White and caucasian are not the same thing. White is a sub-category of caucasian.
In North America they're clearly viewed as synonyms by the great majority, and I've learned not to take your view as definitive of Britons either.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 04, 2012, 07:53:29 PM
n North America they're clearly viewed as synonyms by the great majority,
:lol:
Its amazing the way people are totally ignoring the post before mine, the one I was replying to, I even started by saying yeah to agree;
QuoteThe european and american scales of "what is white" are very different
Though I have to say the American way sounds pretty stupid given how utterly non-white many Indians are.
But then America and race is always crazy.
Quote
and I've learned not to take your view as definitive of Britons either.
Well duh. No one person represents a country.
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 09:05:35 PM
Though I have to say the American way sounds pretty stupid given how utterly non-white many Indians are.
But then America and race is always crazy.
Tim is wrong. Indians are considered Asian.
So a people who are predominately Celtic, Italian, and Germanic aren't white? :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 10:19:49 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 03, 2012, 10:05:05 PM
I support whatever side is fighting against the commies/anarchists.
You know, sometimes a little anarchy is good for the soul. Helps people find their moral compass. Amazing the clarity of vision a few well-placed explosive devices can provide.
Especially if those devices are planes crashing into towers. LULZ.
Quote from: Neil on October 04, 2012, 10:16:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 10:19:49 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 03, 2012, 10:05:05 PM
I support whatever side is fighting against the commies/anarchists.
You know, sometimes a little anarchy is good for the soul. Helps people find their moral compass. Amazing the clarity of vision a few well-placed explosive devices can provide.
Especially if those devices are planes crashing into towers. LULZ.
Certainly woke us the fuck up, now didn't they?
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 09:05:35 PM.
But then America and race is always crazy.
Eh we have a huge variety of people. It would seem crazier to me to say 'oh wow so you are descended from Italians and Greeks? Ok we need a new racial catagory for you'. Instead of like 50,000 different racial groups, or whatever you are proposing, we only have four or five catagories.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 09:05:35 PM
Though I have to say the American way sounds pretty stupid given how utterly non-white many Indians are.
But then America and race is always crazy.
Tim is wrong. Indians are considered Asian.
Indians are considered Indian. Calling them Asian tends to confuse Americans (though 'Indian' can lead to some confusion, too).
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 09:05:35 PM
Though I have to say the American way sounds pretty stupid given how utterly non-white many Indians are.
But then America and race is always crazy.
Tim is wrong. Indians are considered Asian.
Well sorta. If you say that somebody is Asian people are going to think they are East Asian. They will be really confused if an Indian dude walks in. But by the census they are considered Asian.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 09:05:35 PM
Though I have to say the American way sounds pretty stupid given how utterly non-white many Indians are.
But then America and race is always crazy.
Tim is wrong. Indians are considered Asian.
I never said Indians were white. :huh:
Closest thing I said to that was many West Asians ethnicity are, but many is not all, and India is South Asian.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 04, 2012, 10:49:42 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 09:05:35 PM
Though I have to say the American way sounds pretty stupid given how utterly non-white many Indians are.
But then America and race is always crazy.
Tim is wrong. Indians are considered Asian.
I never said Indians were white. :huh:
Closest thing I said to that was many West Asians ethnicity are, but many is not all, and India is South Asian.
You said white and caucasian were synonymous. Indians are Caucasian.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 10:55:58 PM
You said white and caucasian were synonymous. Indians are Caucasian.
Yeah among like 50 other things. It has been a long time since the Indo-Europeans rolled in.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 10:55:58 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 04, 2012, 10:49:42 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2012, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 09:05:35 PM
Though I have to say the American way sounds pretty stupid given how utterly non-white many Indians are.
But then America and race is always crazy.
Tim is wrong. Indians are considered Asian.
I never said Indians were white. :huh:
Closest thing I said to that was many West Asians ethnicity are, but many is not all, and India is South Asian.
You said white and caucasian were synonymous. Indians are Caucasian.
Indians is far to generalized a statement. There are too many subgroups and ethnicities there in to say Indians are Caucasians. Some groups are, particularly among the Brahmins, but most of the Indo-aryans have been assimilated into the local population. The dividing line between Caucasians and Asians is generally in Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F2%2F25%2FMeyers_b11_s0476a.jpg%2F756px-Meyers_b11_s0476a.jpg&hash=402fb9c75318bb75f8a93d77f959288620710018)
Thank you, Jos, for getting us that post above.
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 11:47:04 PM
Thank you, Jos, for getting us that post above.
This is the kind of monkey shitfight at the zoo that makes me hate Languish sometimes.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 04, 2012, 11:48:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 11:47:04 PM
Thank you, Jos, for getting us that post above.
This is the kind of monkey shitfight at the zoo that makes me hate Languish sometimes.
Well it explains why we fail to attract and retain new members.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 04, 2012, 11:40:27 PM
Indians is far to generalized a statement. There are too many subgroups and ethnicities there in to say Indians are Caucasians. Some groups are, particularly among the Brahmins, but most of the Indo-aryans have been assimilated into the local population. The dividing line between Caucasians and Asians is generally in Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race
[i
Don't be daft.
Southern India is heavily australoid iirc and then on the fringes are a lot of east asian ethnicities but the majority of Indians are thoroughly caucasian. Though most of them are pretty dark, light skinned ones can easily pass for Europeans.
That map is crazy. Lapps, modern Turks and... is that Hungarians? Aren't caucasian?
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 11:52:38 PM
Well it explains why we fail to attract and retain new members.
I think it has more to do with the fact we do not seek them our nor welcome them. Well and we are a forum about nothing.
Quote from: Tyr on October 04, 2012, 11:53:55 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 04, 2012, 11:40:27 PM
Indians is far to generalized a statement. There are too many subgroups and ethnicities there in to say Indians are Caucasians. Some groups are, particularly among the Brahmins, but most of the Indo-aryans have been assimilated into the local population. The dividing line between Caucasians and Asians is generally in Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race
[i
Don't be daft.
Southern India is heavily australoid iirc and then on the fringes are a lot of east asian ethnicities but the majority of Indians are thoroughly caucasian. Though most of them are pretty dark, light skinned ones can easily pass for Europeans.
That map is crazy. Lapps, modern Turks and... is that Hungarians? Aren't caucasian?
Ah, just grabbed that because I liked the Indian border. Didn't really look at Europe. :blush: Obviously I consider the above Caucasian.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2012, 11:54:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 11:52:38 PM
Well it explains why we fail to attract and retain new members.
I think it has more to do with the fact we do not seek them our nor welcome them. Well and we are a forum about nothing.
Well why would I invite anyone - they might see threads like this and justifiably hate me.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2012, 11:54:47 PM
Well and we are a forum about nothing.
Nonsense. We are a fan site for a gaming company whose products most of us stopped buying 5-10 years ago.
Barcelona has been greatly in vogue with my roommate and I just recently- both of us are resolved it is a place eminently worth visiting, and are in mutual acquaintance with a catalonian secessionist and anarchist fellow. Spain and Greece's latest news, and indeed most news out of Europe generally, has been encouraging. The only thing that could be asked for is some favourable and dramatic news out of Cisalpine Gaul.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2012, 11:54:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 11:52:38 PM
Well it explains why we fail to attract and retain new members.
I think it has more to do with the fact we do not seek them our nor welcome them. Well and we are a forum about nothing.
We are about life! :cool:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 04, 2012, 10:19:15 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 04, 2012, 10:16:33 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 03, 2012, 10:19:49 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 03, 2012, 10:05:05 PM
I support whatever side is fighting against the commies/anarchists.
You know, sometimes a little anarchy is good for the soul. Helps people find their moral compass. Amazing the clarity of vision a few well-placed explosive devices can provide.
Especially if those devices are planes crashing into towers. LULZ.
Certainly woke us the fuck up, now didn't they?
Did they? Nothing really came of it.
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 11:58:46 PM
Well why would I invite anyone - they might see threads like this and justifiably hate me.
What do you mean 'threads like this'?
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2012, 10:34:10 PM
Well sorta. If you say that somebody is Asian people are going to think they are East Asian. They will be really confused if an Indian dude walks in. But by the census they are considered Asian.
That's because of the US's population. In the UK it'd be the opposite. You'd have to specify 'East Asian' but if you describe someone as 'Asian' then you'd imagine someone who's Indian or Pakistani.
Aside from that I've always thought racial categorisation kind of pointless. Never so much as having read this thread :bleeding:
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 05, 2012, 10:01:35 AM
Aside from that I've always thought racial categorisation kind of pointless.
Oh they are completely pointless and utterly arbitrary. I am obviously having some fun with them in this thread. Unfortunately they are this big deal in human society though. That part is not so fun.
QuoteNever so much as having read this thread :bleeding:
What we never discussed something pointless before? :P
And I disagree. We are not taking this seriously at all. There are places on the internet, and outside it, where people discuss these questions in earnest.
Earnest goes to Stormfront.
Quote from: PDH on October 05, 2012, 10:11:38 AM
Earnest goes to Stormfront.
Which reminds me, Sven Hassel died recently.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2012, 10:06:40 AM
And I disagree. We are not taking this seriously at all. There are places on the internet, and outside it, where people discuss these questions in earnest.
:yes:
Quote from: PDH on October 05, 2012, 10:11:38 AM
Earnest goes to Stormfront.
People mention Stormfront from time to time when racism gets brought up. What is it exactly? A forum for Nazi fans or something?
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2012, 09:36:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 11:58:46 PM
Well why would I invite anyone - they might see threads like this and justifiably hate me.
What do you mean 'threads like this'?
:lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 05, 2012, 10:01:35 AMAside from that I've always thought racial categorisation kind of pointless. Never so much as having read this thread :bleeding:
Pretty much yes on the first point.
On the second point - it's your own fault for reading it in the first place; you just have to learn to skip the posts of certain members once you come across a suspect post in a thread.
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2012, 11:55:06 AM
Pretty much yes on the first point.
On the second point - it's your own fault for reading it in the first place; you just have to learn to skip the posts of certain members once you come across a suspect post in a thread.
Jesus alright I apologize. I did not know we had crossed some sort of line that it got everybody enraged. I thought our discussion was a silly one.
I've trolled with the "Italians/Greeks/Spaniards are not white" line for at least a year. Never caused as much discussion as this time though. :)
When denigrating johnny foreigner on the internet, popular wisdom is to inform south americans they are "browns", and all slavs/ southern europeans they are "fake white". This is particularly important for free online games with large populations of such peoples, and is a popular hit with all crowds. :)
Quote from: Barrister on October 05, 2012, 12:01:17 PM
I've trolled with the "Italians/Greeks/Spaniards are not white" line for at least a year. Never caused as much discussion as this time though. :)
I know don't we joke about this all the time?
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2012, 09:36:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 04, 2012, 11:58:46 PM
Well why would I invite anyone - they might see threads like this and justifiably hate me.
What do you mean 'threads like this'?
It was pretty. Clear when I posted that. Most(much?) Of the thread was racial theory nonsense.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 05, 2012, 10:48:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2012, 10:06:40 AM
And I disagree. We are not taking this seriously at all. There are places on the internet, and outside it, where people discuss these questions in earnest.
:yes:
You didn't seem to be joking.
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 05, 2012, 12:09:41 PM
When denigrating johnny foreigner on the internet, popular wisdom is to inform south americans they are "browns", and all slavs/ southern europeans they are "fake white".
In what way are slavs "fake white"? :huh:
I'll admit when it comes to some further southern slavs (Bulgarians, macedonians) you get the same pigmentation issues as, say, Greeks.
But your average Polack or Uke has pretty fair skin. Plenty of other spurious ways to attack my countrymen without making stuff up. You can try Neil's "slavs are sub-human", or Malthus' "slavs are all anti-semites" for example. :)
Quote from: garbon on October 05, 2012, 12:25:05 PM
It was pretty. Clear when I posted that. Most(much?) Of the thread was racial theory nonsense.
I was making a joke. Anyway I apologize I was only kidding around. Come on 'Honky-Crackerness' should have been a clue.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2012, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 05, 2012, 12:25:05 PM
It was pretty. Clear when I posted that. Most(much?) Of the thread was racial theory nonsense.
I was making a joke. Anyway I apologize I was only kidding around. Come on 'Honky-Crackerness' should have been a clue.
You apologize too easily. If you don't stand up for a proper definition of "white", who will?
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2012, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 05, 2012, 12:25:05 PM
It was pretty. Clear when I posted that. Most(much?) Of the thread was racial theory nonsense.
I was making a joke. Anyway I apologize I was only kidding around. Come on 'Honky-Crackerness' should have been a clue.
To be honest I don't even recall your contribution.
Quote from: Barrister on October 05, 2012, 12:31:58 PM
But your average Polack or Uke has pretty fair skin. Plenty of other spurious ways to attack my countrymen without making stuff up. You can try Neil's "slavs are sub-human", or Malthus' "slavs are all anti-semites" for example. :)
Well, they are anti-Semites. All of them. No exceptions.
I'm married to one, so I ought to know! :ph34r:
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 05, 2012, 10:01:35 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2012, 10:34:10 PM
Well sorta. If you say that somebody is Asian people are going to think they are East Asian. They will be really confused if an Indian dude walks in. But by the census they are considered Asian.
That's because of the US's population. In the UK it'd be the opposite. You'd have to specify 'East Asian' but if you describe someone as 'Asian' then you'd imagine someone who's Indian or Pakistani.
Aside from that I've always thought racial categorisation kind of pointless. Never so much as having read this thread :bleeding:
Pretty soon they are going to break out the Calipers and start measuring skull shape. Mine is lumpy on account of me being clumsy and running into things. :)
Quote from: Razgovory on October 05, 2012, 12:58:58 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 05, 2012, 10:01:35 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2012, 10:34:10 PM
Well sorta. If you say that somebody is Asian people are going to think they are East Asian. They will be really confused if an Indian dude walks in. But by the census they are considered Asian.
That's because of the US's population. In the UK it'd be the opposite. You'd have to specify 'East Asian' but if you describe someone as 'Asian' then you'd imagine someone who's Indian or Pakistani.
Aside from that I've always thought racial categorisation kind of pointless. Never so much as having read this thread :bleeding:
Pretty soon they are going to break out the Calipers and start measuring skull shape. Mine is lumpy on account of me being clumsy and running into things. :)
So, we'll put you down as "mixed race" then. :hmm:
Abnormal.
Yep. I was named after Abby Hoffman.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 05, 2012, 01:48:52 PM
Yep. I was named after Abby Hoffman.
Sounds pretty normal.
I was going for more of a Young Frankenstein riff. :(
Quote from: Barrister on October 05, 2012, 12:31:58 PM
In what way are slavs "fake white"? :huh:
I'll admit when it comes to some further southern slavs (Bulgarians, macedonians) you get the same pigmentation issues as, say, Greeks.
But your average Polack or Uke has pretty fair skin. Plenty of other spurious ways to attack my countrymen without making stuff up. You can try Neil's "slavs are sub-human", or Malthus' "slavs are all anti-semites" for example. :)
Well, pigmentation isnt really the issue here- the subhuman thing is much more relevant. In currency are terms like "flipper-fingered subhumans" and "godless slave race." "slave race" has a life of its own as an adjective- a particularly inadequate supper is prone to being described as slave race, as is an underpowered game character, the performance of one's team, or a broken chair. Untermensch is likely to come up from those near and dear to me, although I personally don't find it to taste.
Accusing them of being anti-semites wouldnt really truck much for the desired effect, as anyone on your own team whose incompetence is sabotaging communal efforts is likely to be outed as a jewish agent, which will invariably lead to the aphorism "all jews are bad news."
(Another vital thing, discussed previously I believe, is to assail anything negative as racist, much in the same way as slave race, with the subtle difference that poor quality is slave race, while anything disagreeable or unpleasant, such as the weather or an odious opinion, can be racist. It is possible to have the coveted overlap of "racist slave race shenanigans", but this is rare and reserved for only the most appropriate of times.
As a final note, poles online are immune to any criticism, and will almost unfailingly be referred to at some point in the gaming experience as a "plucky little pole", or to be "doing the lord's work." In the event that he somehow is racist or slave race, it will be supposed that he is in fact a jewish plant.
боже мой
Can someone translate that for me? Did he go into a discussion of why Slavs are subhuman? The lucidity level cratered after the first sentence.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 05, 2012, 10:01:35 AM
That's because of the US's population. In the UK it'd be the opposite. You'd have to specify 'East Asian' but if you describe someone as 'Asian' then you'd imagine someone who's Indian or Pakistani.
Aside from that I've always thought racial categorisation kind of pointless. Never so much as having read this thread :bleeding:
I agree. But you can't do "diversity" and affirmative action and any other race-based measures of and policies to mitigate racial oppression without it.
Quote from: DGuller on October 05, 2012, 04:41:15 PM
Can someone translate that for me? Did he go into a discussion of why Slavs are subhuman? The lucidity level cratered after the first sentence.
Mew.
Squee.
I'll send you my translation bill.
:lol: White Slavs? I don't think White Russian means what you think it means.
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 05, 2012, 02:01:32 PM
As a final note, poles online are immune to any criticism,
I know you tend to act as a lightning rod, but haven't you read any threads that you hadn't already posted in? :hmm: