I'll be occasionally participating in another game and was looking for input on what kind of character to play. It will start at lvl 5 and anything is open, from any sourcebook, except that the Evil alignments are out.
I was thinking about maybe a Gnome warlord or a Drow Paladin of Kelemvor. Despite the destructino of the Forgotten Realms I'd like to play some of the original races like the Gnomes.
Do you know what the other players are playing?
Quote from: Jacob on May 04, 2009, 12:51:51 PM
Do you know what the other players are playing?
Yep, thats really the key. Fourth edition needs groups put together as carefully as you would for a challenging MMO instance.
WHERE THE HELL WAS HEAL
Whatever gives you the most pluses.
I believe there is a warlock and a sword mage, and probably a bard, not sure about anybody else.
Does it really matter? No matter what, you'll be considered 'Artillery' or some such nonsense.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 04, 2009, 03:02:51 PM
I believe there is a warlock and a sword mage, and probably a bard, not sure about anybody else.
What the hell is a sword mage?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 04, 2009, 03:02:51 PMI believe there is a warlock and a sword mage, and probably a bard, not sure about anybody else.
Looks like you got the bases covered, pretty much, and can make whatever you want.
The new Invoker and Avenger classes both seem pretty cool in how they work, though I'm not usually into divine type characters. That said, whenever I'm making a character for 4E I tend back towards the fighter.
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2009, 03:17:07 PM
What the hell is a sword mage?
Forgotten realms special. There are some stats in the FR preview:
http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/rpga4_frpgpreview.zip
It's an Arcane Defender type.
Quote from: Neil on May 04, 2009, 03:14:53 PM
Does it really matter? No matter what, you'll be considered 'Artillery' or some such nonsense.
Unfortunately.
I just wanna kill things. Wizards are teh suck now. I just wanna be an elven multi-class fighter-magic user.
So the basic evolution is that, in 3rd, they gut multi class characters and then, in 4th, they introduce a bunch of new character classes that are basically hybrids of existing classes? In other words, we're basically back where we started but with sillier class names?
I play a rogue halfling and am having lot of fun with him. He usually gets behind people and stab them to death.
Kevin
Quote from: vinraith on May 05, 2009, 01:29:51 AM
So the basic evolution is that, in 3rd, they gut multi class characters and then, in 4th, they introduce a bunch of new character classes that are basically hybrids of existing classes?
They already introduced the hybrids in 3rd later on, since they fucked up multi-class casters so bad.
Quote from: vinraith on May 05, 2009, 01:29:51 AM
So the basic evolution is that, in 3rd, they gut multi class characters and then, in 4th, they introduce a bunch of new character classes that are basically hybrids of existing classes? In other words, we're basically back where we started but with sillier class names?
I hated multi-class characters in 3rd ed. They did it much better in 2nd edition, which is pretty damning considering how archaic the first two editions were.
I really dislike the fascination with more and more classes, they do not really add anything to the game besides making it really really complex and selling more supplements.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2009, 08:43:19 AMI really dislike the fascination with more and more classes, they do not really add anything to the game besides making it really really complex and selling more supplements.
Then don't play with the additional supplements. 4E is perfectly playable with just the PHB and DMG (and you'd probably want the MM as well). Some of us enjoy the additional stuff and it has the added benefit of making money for the owners of the property.
Quote from: vinraith on May 05, 2009, 01:29:51 AM
So the basic evolution is that, in 3rd, they gut multi class characters and then, in 4th, they introduce a bunch of new character classes that are basically hybrids of existing classes? In other words, we're basically back where we started but with sillier class names?
Not really, no. Not yet, anyhow.
OK then
Quote from: Jacob on May 05, 2009, 12:48:52 PM
Quote from: vinraith on May 05, 2009, 01:29:51 AM
So the basic evolution is that, in 3rd, they gut multi class characters and then, in 4th, they introduce a bunch of new character classes that are basically hybrids of existing classes? In other words, we're basically back where we started but with sillier class names?
Not really, no. Not yet, anyhow.
OK then, what distinguishes a sword mage from a fighter/mage? Honest question, mind you, my only exposure to these new classes is through NWN 2. There, at least, several new classes looked like an attempt to restore the ability to play a multiclass caster/melee character without actually reinstating viable multiclassing. The others looked like an attempt to take the "sorceror" idea (ie casters for people that don't want to plan) and apply it to all the other caster types. Maybe it's different in the final rule books?
Fancy classnames > multicasting
As much as I am against over-rulification in RPGs, easy flavor rules enchance the experience, bland lawyering (fighter/mage, cleric/mage, wtf?) reduces it.
Quote from: vinraith on May 05, 2009, 12:54:43 PMOK then, what distinguishes a sword mage from a fighter/mage? Honest question, mind you, my only exposure to these new classes is through NWN 2. There, at least, several new classes looked like an attempt to restore the ability to play a multiclass caster/melee character without actually reinstating viable multiclassing. The others looked like an attempt to take the "sorceror" idea (ie casters for people that don't want to plan) and apply it to all the other caster types. Maybe it's different in the final rule books?
Multi-classing is coming back at some point, I believe.
Anyways, to compare swordmages and fighters:
Both are defender classes, so they're supposed to get in the oppositions attention, make the opposition attack them, and still be able to keep going.
Flavour wise, the fighter is about martial prowess and all that goes with it. He wears a lot of armour, usually, and a lot hinges on what sort of weapon he chooses to specialize in: a polearm fighter feels different from a 2-hand axe fighter feels different from a sword and board fighter and so on. His most important stat is Str, which will flavour other parts of his character. Conversely, the swordmage always uses a sword, is lightly armoured and probably won't use a shield. He is bonded to his specific sword and can do things like summoning it to him and so on. His attacks are either sword based or, more commonly, magic channeled through his sword. His primary stat is Int, which will flavour other parts of his character as well.
In terms of actual play, the fighter does his job by getting right in the face of the opposition, making it so they can't move around or hurt anyone else without being punished for it. The swordmage is much more mobile and range based, and can get some good mileage of kiting like they do in mmos.
The thing with 4E, the differences show better in actual play than they do in discussion. The various different classes, so far and to me, seem quite different in actual play.
Quote from: Jacob on May 05, 2009, 12:44:27 PM
Then don't play with the additional supplements. 4E is perfectly playable with just the PHB and DMG (and you'd probably want the MM as well). Some of us enjoy the additional stuff and it has the added benefit of making money for the owners of the property.
Well I think the continued effect of all the additional stuff is to unbalance and weaken the game and have almost always been poorly designed. Obviously I do not have to play with any rules at all, I could write my own D&D rules using all the best qualities of the editions if I wanted to. Even so I still have an opinion on the rules and things about D&D I do not like regardless of who or who does not enjoy what.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 04, 2009, 09:11:02 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 04, 2009, 03:14:53 PM
Does it really matter? No matter what, you'll be considered 'Artillery' or some such nonsense.
Unfortunately.
I just wanna kill things. Wizards are teh suck now. I just wanna be an elven multi-class fighter-magic user.
I've found that most people try to play wizards as damage dealers. In my opinion this is a mistake; wizards excel at controlling the battlefield by creating difficult terrain, barriers and effects on other people. I've had a ball thwarting the DM's plans with an orb focus wizard.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 04, 2009, 03:02:51 PM
I believe there is a warlock and a sword mage, and probably a bard, not sure about anybody else.
That means you already have a defender, a leader, and a striker. You're still missing a controller, which are wizards, invokers, and druids.
If you like to play a gnome might I suggest a Gnome Wizard, using an orb implement with focus on illusion spells(PH2)?
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2009, 01:22:19 PMWell I think the continued effect of all the additional stuff is to unbalance and weaken the game and have almost always been poorly designed. Obviously I do not have to play with any rules at all, I could write my own D&D rules using all the best qualities of the editions if I wanted to. Even so I still have an opinion on the rules and things about D&D I do not like regardless of who or who does not enjoy what.
Your opinion would be more persuasive if it was based on having played the game.
In my practical experience, the rules have been well designed and the further expansions have not weakened or unbalanced them. Of course, this shouldn't force you to change your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to.
Quote from: Jacob on May 05, 2009, 01:55:27 PM
Your opinion would be more persuasive if it was based on having played the game.
My opinion was based on 3E and the prestige classes and 2E and the kits and so forth. That I have alot of experience with. My comment was based on that previous experience. I nowhere implied I was critisizing 4E in particular just that particular phenomenon in D&D.
QuoteIn my practical experience, the rules have been well designed and the further expansions have not weakened or unbalanced them. Of course, this shouldn't force you to change your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to.
Wow you have got to be smoking some powerful crack. Enormously unbalanced new rules and poorly tested supplements goes right back to the infamous Unearthed Arcana book in 1E.
Quote from: Hansmeister on May 05, 2009, 01:49:30 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 04, 2009, 03:02:51 PM
I believe there is a warlock and a sword mage, and probably a bard, not sure about anybody else.
That means you already have a defender, a leader, and a striker. You're still missing a controller, which are wizards, invokers, and druids.
If you like to play a gnome might I suggest a Gnome Wizard, using an orb implement with focus on illusion spells(PH2)?
That's not a bad idea at all.
I was at the comic book store during the big Free Comic Book Day sale on Saturday and saw dozens of 2nd Ed books beign sold off. I was impressed by someone buying 5 Spell Comendium books at once. Do people actually read through all of them and pick out one or two new spells a level?
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2009, 02:35:40 PMMy opinion was based on 3E and the prestige classes and 2E and the kits and so forth. That I have alot of experience with. My comment was based on that previous experience. I nowhere implied I was critisizing 4E in particular just that particular phenomenon in D&D.
Ah ok. I was talking about 4E, and being wary of the same phenomenon for the same reason you mentioned, have been pleasantly surprised so far. This is what I was talking about.
There is still room for bloat and power creep, but so far so good.
QuoteWow you have got to be smoking some powerful crack. Enormously unbalanced new rules and poorly tested supplements goes right back to the infamous Unearthed Arcana book in 1E.
It certainly does. 4E has, so far, been an enormous improvement though it is not perfect. That's what I've been talking about. My point really is that before you condemn 4E as doing the same thing as the previous editions did, try it out. Because it seems as if they've tried to address that issue while also addressing the economical one (namely that they need to produce more product that people buy).
Apparently since the last time I spoke to the DM the entire party became Arcane spellhurlers. All of them. So I am gonna have to rethink the cool Gnome illusionist. While I hate the idea of becoming the de facto human shield I'd like the party to not get mauled every session.
So: Paladin of Kelemvor, Cleric of Sune, Warlord in the service of Paladine, or a Dragonborn rogue are my top favorites.
QuoteWarlord in the service of Paladine
Dragonlance-FR hybrid campaign?
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2009, 03:24:43 PM
QuoteWarlord in the service of Paladine
Dragonlance-FR hybrid campaign?
Spelljammer like setting.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2009, 03:43:11 PM
Spelljammer like setting.
I love your old school campaign :wub:
How I miss Planescape and Ravenloft. :(
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2009, 03:43:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2009, 03:24:43 PM
QuoteWarlord in the service of Paladine
Dragonlance-FR hybrid campaign?
Spelljammer like setting.
I wish they would bring Spelljammer back. Alas, this year they're bringing back Ebberon, and next year the rumor is that Dark Sun will be back.
Quote from: Hansmeister on May 05, 2009, 04:51:08 PM
I wish they would bring Spelljammer back. Alas, this year they're bringing back Ebberon, and next year the rumor is that Dark Sun will be back.
Dark Sun is neat. So's Spelljammer, though.
Spelljammer was my favorite setting ever, both for playing and for DMing. Just too cool IMO, space fantasy naval battles rule.
I wish there was a Dragonlance book out for 4th Ed. Fuck Eberon. Or whatever the fuck it is. I wanna be a Knight of Takhisis, and not one of those lame ass 5th Age ones. 5th Age sucked. Sucks more than the abomination that is 4th ed. Forgotten Realms. Bastards. Fuck.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2009, 08:43:19 AM
I hated multi-class characters in 3rd ed. They did it much better in 2nd edition, which is pretty damning considering how archaic the first two editions were.
3rd edition had the advantage of being simple. 1st and 2nd edition had the advantage of scaling well. A 10th/10th fighter/mage was roughly comparable to an 11 or 12th level character, and was balanced like that. However, in 3rd a 10th/10th character was theoretically a 20th-level character, but was significantly less effective than a straight-up 20th level character.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2009, 08:17:51 PM
5th Age sucked. Sucks more than the abomination that is 4th ed. Forgotten Realms. Bastards. Fuck.
What did they do to fuck up the 4th ed. Realms?
Where can I find an updated compendium on the realms' history? I'm still stuck at the 2nd edition.
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on May 06, 2009, 04:17:58 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2009, 08:17:51 PM
5th Age sucked. Sucks more than the abomination that is 4th ed. Forgotten Realms. Bastards. Fuck.
What did they do to fuck up the 4th ed. Realms?
Where can I find an updated compendium on the realms' history? I'm still stuck at the 2nd edition.
L.
Some book stores carry the 4th ed stuff. COuld get it off the Interweb too. Dedicated game stores too. Comic book stores.
they sucked out most of the flavor and descriptions and made it into a post-apocalyptic environment. Shar someone offed Mystra and blew up the Magical weave. So all sorts of things are total shit now, killed off most of the pantheons, whole nations turned into undead. Blah blah blah.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 06, 2009, 06:13:49 AM
Quote from: Pedrito on May 06, 2009, 04:17:58 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2009, 08:17:51 PM
5th Age sucked. Sucks more than the abomination that is 4th ed. Forgotten Realms. Bastards. Fuck.
What did they do to fuck up the 4th ed. Realms?
Where can I find an updated compendium on the realms' history? I'm still stuck at the 2nd edition.
L.
Some book stores carry the 4th ed stuff. COuld get it off the Interweb too. Dedicated game stores too. Comic book stores.
they sucked out most of the flavor and descriptions and made it into a post-apocalyptic environment. Shar someone offed Mystra and blew up the Magical weave. So all sorts of things are total shit now, killed off most of the pantheons, whole nations turned into undead. Blah blah blah.
In essence, they decided that people were turned off of the Realms by how rich the setting was, and by how much backstory was availible. Therefore, as imbeciles are wont to do, they jumped the setting forward a hundred years and blew everything and everybody up. Virtually every NPC is either dead or retired (although I imagine that Drizzt is still around somewhere; Emo kids love the drow), and there have been major changes.
Baldur's Gate has become gigantic and important.
Thay has become entirely undead.
Mulhorand and Unther are gone.
Chessenta has been devastated.
The Chultan peninsula has been cut off by the sea.
Lantan has been completely destroyed.
Murghom and Semphar are now ruled by dragons.
Anauroch is gone.
Netheril and Imaskar are back.
Calimshan is genie-land.
The Sea of Fallen Stars has partially drained.
Luskan and Neverwinter are ruined.
The humans of Silverymoon and Sundabar have turned on the dwarves and allied with the orcs.
Sembia is a vassal of Netheril, and has gone about invading the Dales and Myth Drannor on their behalf.
Cormyr has conquered in every direction.
Damara and Vaasa have been reset to their pre-Bloodstone status.
Impiltuir is full of demon-worshippers.
Halruua has been destroyed and turned into swampland.
The Great Rift collapsed into the Underdark. Well, deeper into the Underdark. It's now a bottomless pit.
Dambrath got rid of the half-drow. Now they're werewolves instead.
Luiren and Var are both underwater.
Durpar is using magic crystal to replace limbs, like a cyborg or something. The country is mostly ruined.
Apparently an alternate world called Abeir has overwritten some parts of the Realms. Thus, Chondath, most of Unther and Chessenta and the entire Maztican continent are gone, replaced with totally different places.
Mystra and Azuth are dead. The archdevil Asmodeus ate Azuth in order to become a god himself.
Other dead gods include Tyr, Helm, Talos, Lathander (although he's been replaced by an ancient god of the sun), Mask, Eldath, Deneir, the entire Mulhorandi pantheon and all the drow gods except for Lolth and Ghaundahar. Torm and Selune have been promoted to fill the gaps caused by the deaths of Tyr and Mystra.
Cyric is in prison for the murder of Mystra.
The Zhentarim have been largely destroyed by Netheril. Zhentil Keep is totally gone.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 05, 2009, 08:17:51 PM
Sucks more than the abomination that is 4th ed. Forgotten Realms. Bastards. Fuck.
I know the whole spell plague thing or whatever the fuck that is sounds lamer than the Time of Troubles.
The thing that sucks about the realms is Ed Greenwood, or whoever, adds a new cataclysm every five years realm time that effectively makes all your adventuring meaningless.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 09:01:32 AM
In essence, they decided that people were turned off of the Realms by how rich the setting was, and by how much backstory was availible. Therefore, as imbeciles are wont to do, they jumped the setting forward a hundred years and blew everything and everybody up. Virtually every NPC is either dead or retired (although I imagine that Drizzt is still around somewhere; Emo kids love the drow), and there have been major changes.
Baldur's Gate has become gigantic and important.
Thay has become entirely undead.
Mulhorand and Unther are gone.
Chessenta has been devastated.
The Chultan peninsula has been cut off by the sea.
Lantan has been completely destroyed.
Murghom and Semphar are now ruled by dragons.
Anauroch is gone.
Netheril and Imaskar are back.
Calimshan is genie-land.
The Sea of Fallen Stars has partially drained.
Luskan and Neverwinter are ruined.
The humans of Silverymoon and Sundabar have turned on the dwarves and allied with the orcs.
Sembia is a vassal of Netheril, and has gone about invading the Dales and Myth Drannor on their behalf.
Cormyr has conquered in every direction.
Damara and Vaasa have been reset to their pre-Bloodstone status.
Impiltuir is full of demon-worshippers.
Halruua has been destroyed and turned into swampland.
The Great Rift collapsed into the Underdark. Well, deeper into the Underdark. It's now a bottomless pit.
Dambrath got rid of the half-drow. Now they're werewolves instead.
Luiren and Var are both underwater.
Durpar is using magic crystal to replace limbs, like a cyborg or something. The country is mostly ruined.
Apparently an alternate world called Abeir has overwritten some parts of the Realms. Thus, Chondath, most of Unther and Chessenta and the entire Maztican continent are gone, replaced with totally different places.
Mystra and Azuth are dead. The archdevil Asmodeus ate Azuth in order to become a god himself.
Other dead gods include Tyr, Helm, Talos, Lathander (although he's been replaced by an ancient god of the sun), Mask, Eldath, Deneir, the entire Mulhorandi pantheon and all the drow gods except for Lolth and Ghaundahar. Torm and Selune have been promoted to fill the gaps caused by the deaths of Tyr and Mystra.
Cyric is in prison for the murder of Mystra.
The Zhentarim have been largely destroyed by Netheril. Zhentil Keep is totally gone.
Oh WTF?! If people were so turned off by the realms why is it the only survivor of the excellent 2nd edition settings?
Meh WOTC is really devoted to raping my childhood. I hope they drop the realms and just focus on fucking up Eberron which is already lame to begin with.
Forgotten Realms was always lame.
Give my Dark Sun back. :cry:
Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2009, 09:21:31 AM
Give my Dark Sun back. :cry:
Or any of the other 2nd ed settings.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 09:01:32 AM
In essence, they decided that people were turned off of the Realms by how rich the setting was, and by how much backstory was availible. Therefore, as imbeciles are wont to do, they jumped the setting forward a hundred years and blew everything and everybody up. Virtually every NPC is either dead or retired (although I imagine that Drizzt is still around somewhere; Emo kids love the drow), and there have been major changes.
Baldur's Gate has become gigantic and important.
Thay has become entirely undead.
Mulhorand and Unther are gone.
Chessenta has been devastated.
The Chultan peninsula has been cut off by the sea.
Lantan has been completely destroyed.
Murghom and Semphar are now ruled by dragons.
Anauroch is gone.
Netheril and Imaskar are back.
Calimshan is genie-land.
The Sea of Fallen Stars has partially drained.
Luskan and Neverwinter are ruined.
The humans of Silverymoon and Sundabar have turned on the dwarves and allied with the orcs.
Sembia is a vassal of Netheril, and has gone about invading the Dales and Myth Drannor on their behalf.
Cormyr has conquered in every direction.
Damara and Vaasa have been reset to their pre-Bloodstone status.
Impiltuir is full of demon-worshippers.
Halruua has been destroyed and turned into swampland.
The Great Rift collapsed into the Underdark. Well, deeper into the Underdark. It's now a bottomless pit.
Dambrath got rid of the half-drow. Now they're werewolves instead.
Luiren and Var are both underwater.
Durpar is using magic crystal to replace limbs, like a cyborg or something. The country is mostly ruined.
Apparently an alternate world called Abeir has overwritten some parts of the Realms. Thus, Chondath, most of Unther and Chessenta and the entire Maztican continent are gone, replaced with totally different places.
Mystra and Azuth are dead. The archdevil Asmodeus ate Azuth in order to become a god himself.
Other dead gods include Tyr, Helm, Talos, Lathander (although he's been replaced by an ancient god of the sun), Mask, Eldath, Deneir, the entire Mulhorandi pantheon and all the drow gods except for Lolth and Ghaundahar. Torm and Selune have been promoted to fill the gaps caused by the deaths of Tyr and Mystra.
Cyric is in prison for the murder of Mystra.
The Zhentarim have been largely destroyed by Netheril. Zhentil Keep is totally gone.
WTF?! It's worse than I expected... :cry:
L.
I bet making Baldur's Gate big and important had nothing to do with Bioware. Funny considering they picked that city (along with Amn for the second game) for their game precisely because it was comparatively obscure.
Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2009, 09:21:31 AM
Forgotten Realms was always lame.
Give my Dark Sun back. :cry:
Ditto. But I prefer the original Tekumel setting, which Dark Sun shamelessly plundered.
Thanks for the litany of horror, Neil. I'd no idea they'd so badly gutted my beloved Realms. :weep:
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2009, 09:03:19 AM
The thing that sucks about the realms is Ed Greenwood, or whoever, adds a new cataclysm every five years realm time that effectively makes all your adventuring meaningless.
It's a marketing thing, and has nothing to do with Greenwood, whose campaign differs significantly from the published materials.
The Time of Troubles was mandated by TSR in order to account for the changes that came in when AD&D went to the 2nd edition. Even so, the changes were somewhat unpopular, since their main in-universe changes were the deaths of three popular adversaries, the gods Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, and their replacement with the single new god Cyric, who was always a putz. They also killed all the assassins, slightly altered Mystra's personality, added wild magic and dead magic, and cut out psionics (for a while).
The change to the 3rd edition really wasn't that big a deal in-universe, with the only major changes I can think of offhand being the death of Xvim/rebirth of Bane and the conquest of Unther by Mulhorand, as well as a diminuation of the coolness of the drow. In my opinion, this was a changeover done right: a few mechanical issues were fiddled with (the ability of dwarves to cast magic being a result of the Thunder Blessing, that sort of thing), but minimal alterations to the setting.
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2009, 10:07:56 AM
I bet making Baldur's Gate big and important had nothing to do with Bioware. Funny considering they picked that city (along with Amn for the second game) for their game precisely because it was comparatively obscure.
Well, nothing other than name recognition. It's basically a second Waterdeep, only less orderly.
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2009, 09:06:32 AM
Meh WOTC is really devoted to raping my childhood. I hope they drop the realms and just focus on fucking up Eberron which is already lame to begin with.
That'll never happen. If they drop the Realms, the IP reverts to Greenwood (as per the terms of the original contract), and no company would ever allow a potential source of revenue for video games and novels to slip away.
Instead, if they aren't interested in a setting, they fuck it up into something that they are interested in. That's what happened with the 4e Realms. They didn't like all that backstory, but they had to keep using the setting.
Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2009, 09:21:31 AM
Forgotten Realms was always lame.
Give my Dark Sun back. :cry:
I really liked the Realms. In fact, I enjoyed all of the 'Golden Years' settings of the 2nd edition, to one degree or another. It was fun watching them unify the settings.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 10:17:03 AM
The change to the 3rd edition really wasn't that big a deal in-universe, with the only major changes I can think of offhand being the death of Xvim/rebirth of Bane and the conquest of Unther by Mulhorand, as well as a diminuation of the coolness of the drow. In my opinion, this was a changeover done right: a few mechanical issues were fiddled with (the ability of dwarves to cast magic being a result of the Thunder Blessing, that sort of thing), but minimal alterations to the setting.
I agree. I liked the slight changes for 3rd Ed and the fact they repaired alot of the damage done by the ToT lameness.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 10:26:30 AM
I really liked the Realms. In fact, I enjoyed all of the 'Golden Years' settings of the 2nd edition, to one degree or another. It was fun watching them unify the settings.
I still have all my Planescape stuff. It will always be my favorite setting since...technically...it was all the 2nd Ed settings put together. ;)
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2009, 10:32:51 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 10:26:30 AM
I really liked the Realms. In fact, I enjoyed all of the 'Golden Years' settings of the 2nd edition, to one degree or another. It was fun watching them unify the settings.
I still have all my Planescape stuff. It will always be my favorite setting since...technically...it was all the 2nd Ed settings put together. ;)
Indeed. Planescape and Spelljammer were the lynchpins that connected everything together. That said, I thought that Planescape was better as a place for established characters to adventure in, and I didn't like the effects that Spelljammer had on existing game worlds. Still, no world was perfect.
You know what I really liked? The Taladas setting for Dragonlance.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 10:56:22 AM
You know what I really liked? The Taladas setting for Dragonlance.
Yeah whatever happened to that setting anyway? Heck whatever happened to Dragonlance period it slowly faded away after 1st Ed as a D&D setting though alot of novels have been written about it.
IIRC, the authors of the setting wanted to have a more complete control over «what happened».
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 06, 2009, 11:16:51 AM
IIRC, the authors of the setting wanted to have a more complete control over «what happened».
IIRC that was exactly why they made Taladas so there was a place to adventure in 2nd Ed.
I guess that is what happened. They made Taladas and it was not successful and that was that for Dragonlance as a game setting.
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2009, 11:14:26 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 10:56:22 AM
You know what I really liked? The Taladas setting for Dragonlance.
Yeah whatever happened to that setting anyway? Heck whatever happened to Dragonlance period it slowly faded away after 1st Ed as a D&D setting though alot of novels have been written about it.
Weis and Hickman have the gaming rights back, and were publishing d20 supplements for it. As for Taladas, it was just one boxed set, one adventure and a brief storyline in the Dragonlance comics. For a series as dependent upon the novels as Dragonlance, it didn't have much of a chance without significant support in the novels, which was impossible since all people were interested in reading about was Sturm, kender and Raistlin.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 11:26:49 AM
which was impossible since all people were interested in reading about was Sturm, kender and Raistlin.
Sturm? Didn't he die in Dragons of the Winter Night? I mean there are a zillion DL books and that is book 2.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 11:26:49 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2009, 11:14:26 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 10:56:22 AM
You know what I really liked? The Taladas setting for Dragonlance.
Yeah whatever happened to that setting anyway? Heck whatever happened to Dragonlance period it slowly faded away after 1st Ed as a D&D setting though alot of novels have been written about it.
Weis and Hickman have the gaming rights back, and were publishing d20 supplements for it. As for Taladas, it was just one boxed set, one adventure and a brief storyline in the Dragonlance comics. For a series as dependent upon the novels as Dragonlance, it didn't have much of a chance without significant support in the novels, which was impossible since all people were interested in reading about was Sturm, kender and Raistlin.
Taladas was the setting for the Dark Queen of Krynn gold box if I remember correctly, and mentioned off and on in the novels.
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2009, 11:29:28 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 11:26:49 AM
which was impossible since all people were interested in reading about was Sturm, kender and Raistlin.
Sturm? Didn't he die in Dragons of the Winter Night? I mean there are a zillion DL books and that is book 2.
Lots of them are prequels. I think he has a kid that fills in for him later on.
Folks just loved Sturm.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 12:20:22 PM
Lots of them are prequels. I think he has a kid that fills in for him later on.
Folks just loved Sturm.
How exactly does a dead guy have a kid...oh fuck it is not some shit with he and Kitiara during that horrid prequel (I read it but I tried to purge my memory of it).
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2009, 12:30:08 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 12:20:22 PM
Lots of them are prequels. I think he has a kid that fills in for him later on.
Folks just loved Sturm.
How exactly does a dead guy have a kid...oh fuck it is not some shit with he and Kitiara during that horrid prequel (I read it but I tried to purge my memory of it).
Correctamundo.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 09:01:32 AM
In essence, they decided that people were turned off of the Realms by how rich the setting was, and by how much backstory was availible. Therefore, as imbeciles are wont to do, they jumped the setting forward a hundred years and blew everything and everybody up. Virtually every NPC is either dead or retired (although I imagine that Drizzt is still around somewhere; Emo kids love the drow), and there have been major changes.
Baldur's Gate has become gigantic and important.
Thay has become entirely undead.
Mulhorand and Unther are gone.
Chessenta has been devastated.
The Chultan peninsula has been cut off by the sea.
Lantan has been completely destroyed.
Murghom and Semphar are now ruled by dragons.
Anauroch is gone.
Netheril and Imaskar are back.
Calimshan is genie-land.
The Sea of Fallen Stars has partially drained.
Luskan and Neverwinter are ruined.
The humans of Silverymoon and Sundabar have turned on the dwarves and allied with the orcs.
Sembia is a vassal of Netheril, and has gone about invading the Dales and Myth Drannor on their behalf.
Cormyr has conquered in every direction.
Damara and Vaasa have been reset to their pre-Bloodstone status.
Impiltuir is full of demon-worshippers.
Halruua has been destroyed and turned into swampland.
The Great Rift collapsed into the Underdark. Well, deeper into the Underdark. It's now a bottomless pit.
Dambrath got rid of the half-drow. Now they're werewolves instead.
Luiren and Var are both underwater.
Durpar is using magic crystal to replace limbs, like a cyborg or something. The country is mostly ruined.
Apparently an alternate world called Abeir has overwritten some parts of the Realms. Thus, Chondath, most of Unther and Chessenta and the entire Maztican continent are gone, replaced with totally different places.
Mystra and Azuth are dead. The archdevil Asmodeus ate Azuth in order to become a god himself.
Other dead gods include Tyr, Helm, Talos, Lathander (although he's been replaced by an ancient god of the sun), Mask, Eldath, Deneir, the entire Mulhorandi pantheon and all the drow gods except for Lolth and Ghaundahar. Torm and Selune have been promoted to fill the gaps caused by the deaths of Tyr and Mystra.
Cyric is in prison for the murder of Mystra.
The Zhentarim have been largely destroyed by Netheril. Zhentil Keep is totally gone.
Why the fuck did they do all that? I have no problems with campaign changing over time but it sounds like they got lazy and didnt' want to come up with content for a whole bunch of places.
Yeah, they fucked the Forgotten Realms up pretty bad in 4E. I like the new edition as a game, but I can't defend what they did to the realms.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 06, 2009, 01:24:44 PM
Why the fuck did they do all that? I have no problems with campaign changing over time but it sounds like they got lazy and didnt' want to come up with content for a whole bunch of places.
Well, as I understand it there were a couple of reasons. I've already gone into the way that the designers felt that people were intimidated by the rich, deep backstory of the Realms, and that the setting didn't allow them to do some of the things that they wanted to.
I'm not familiar with 4th edition (I'm not particularily interested in it), so I can't say if there were any mechanical reasons that they made the change. Given that wizards aren't wizards any more, but rather 'Artillery', I would imagine that the magic system has changed significantly, but I can't say.
Another common complaint was that there were too many powerful good-aligned NPCs in the Realms, and that having people like Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, the Harpers at Twilight Hall, Vangerdahast, Nain Keenwhistler, Savengriff, Malchor Harpell and the like meant that the players weren't able to have adventures without these people butting in. Thus, the solution was to either kill them as a result of the Spellplague, or have them die of old age.
My guess is they didnt want to go to all the work of converting all the NPCs to 4th edition rules.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2009, 03:08:14 PM
My guess is they didnt want to go to all the work of converting all the NPCs to 4th edition rules.
Actually, there aren't any published NPCs anymore. They just have the one 4th edition Forgotten Realms book that summarizes the realms, the gods and some of the evil organizations of the Realms. Highly detailed supplements are a thing of the past.
I suppose it must be rough on people to have the physical rules of your universe change ever 8 years or so.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 03:03:42 PMAnother common complaint was that there were too many powerful good-aligned NPCs in the Realms, and that having people like Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, the Harpers at Twilight Hall, Vangerdahast, Nain Keenwhistler, Savengriff, Malchor Harpell and the like meant that the players weren't able to have adventures without these people butting in. Thus, the solution was to either kill them as a result of the Spellplague, or have them die of old age.
That was pretty much the only good change they did, killing all the Mary Sues.
As for wizards they're still wizards.
'Artillery' is a label applied to some monsters (certain spell hurlers and archer types for example) to give inexperienced dungeon masters an idea of how to play them intelligently (these guys should hang back and use ranged attack; if you PCs have had difficulty with other artillery monsters in the past, they might have difficulties with these too).
Quote from: Jacob on May 06, 2009, 03:59:32 PM
That was pretty much the only good change they did, killing all the Mary Sues.
I disagree. Killing the people went a fair way towards killing the setting.
I also take great offence to the term 'Mary Sue'.
I think it was completely possible to integrate the Harpers or Zhents into a good story. or even my sucky ass ones.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 03:03:42 PM
Another common complaint was that there were too many powerful good-aligned NPCs in the Realms, and that having people like Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, the Harpers at Twilight Hall, Vangerdahast, Nain Keenwhistler, Savengriff, Malchor Harpell and the like meant that the players weren't able to have adventures without these people butting in. Thus, the solution was to either kill them as a result of the Spellplague, or have them die of old age.
Huh? There were tons of way overpowered badguys also. I never recall the mighty NPCs being much of a problem.
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 07:57:49 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 03:03:42 PM
Another common complaint was that there were too many powerful good-aligned NPCs in the Realms, and that having people like Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, the Harpers at Twilight Hall, Vangerdahast, Nain Keenwhistler, Savengriff, Malchor Harpell and the like meant that the players weren't able to have adventures without these people butting in. Thus, the solution was to either kill them as a result of the Spellplague, or have them die of old age.
Huh? There were tons of way overpowered badguys also. I never recall the mighty NPCs being much of a problem.
Overpowered bad guys were fine. It was the good guys that were the problem, since many people whined about how they would just show up and solve all the players' problems. Of course, that was bad GMing, but the whiny masses have spoken.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 09:52:38 AM
Overpowered bad guys were fine. It was the good guys that were the problem, since many people whined about how they would just show up and solve all the players' problems. Of course, that was bad GMing, but the whiny masses have spoken.
Yeah I do not get that at all. You don't have to have Elminster port in and save you when the Chultan Yuan-Tis are about to sacrifice you.
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 03:24:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2009, 03:08:14 PM
My guess is they didnt want to go to all the work of converting all the NPCs to 4th edition rules.
Actually, there aren't any published NPCs anymore. They just have the one 4th edition Forgotten Realms book that summarizes the realms, the gods and some of the evil organizations of the Realms. Highly detailed supplements are a thing of the past.
So they are even more lazy then I had guessed. Why would anyone buy that then. Why not just use all the old source materials...
Quote from: Razgovory on May 06, 2009, 03:41:13 PM
I suppose it must be rough on people to have the physical rules of your universe change ever 8 years or so.
IMO, it was more fun to do your own world building, and plunder published world's for ideas. best part of being a GM ... and likely the best applied use of a history and literature degree. :D
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2009, 09:56:28 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 03:24:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2009, 03:08:14 PM
My guess is they didnt want to go to all the work of converting all the NPCs to 4th edition rules.
Actually, there aren't any published NPCs anymore. They just have the one 4th edition Forgotten Realms book that summarizes the realms, the gods and some of the evil organizations of the Realms. Highly detailed supplements are a thing of the past.
So they are even more lazy then I had guessed. Why would anyone buy that then. Why not just use all the old source materials...
More cheap than lazy, I suspect.
Indeed, buying the 4th Edition Realms for any reason other than shock value would be a mistake. And even then, you shouldn't encourage them with money.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2009, 09:56:28 AM
So they are even more lazy then I had guessed. Why would anyone buy that then. Why not just use all the old source materials...
In the past I would have been worried about the CRPGs being effected by WOTC shenanigans...but the good companies are doing their own IPs these days so I can safely just pretend none of this stuff is actually happening. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2009, 09:56:28 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2009, 03:24:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2009, 03:08:14 PM
My guess is they didnt want to go to all the work of converting all the NPCs to 4th edition rules.
Actually, there aren't any published NPCs anymore. They just have the one 4th edition Forgotten Realms book that summarizes the realms, the gods and some of the evil organizations of the Realms. Highly detailed supplements are a thing of the past.
So they are even more lazy then I had guessed. Why would anyone buy that then. Why not just use all the old source materials...
More cheap than lazy, I suspect.
Indeed, buying the 4th Edition Realms for any reason other than shock value would be a mistake. And even then, you shouldn't encourage them with money.
Indeed. You should smite them for 4th ed realms. :mad:
Quote from: saskganesh on May 07, 2009, 10:19:30 AM
IMO, it was more fun to do your own world building, and plunder published world's for ideas. best part of being a GM ... and likely the best applied use of a history and literature degree. :D
That was always the fun part for me.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 09:52:38 AMOverpowered bad guys were fine. It was the good guys that were the problem, since many people whined about how they would just show up and solve all the players' problems. Of course, that was bad GMing, but the whiny masses have spoken.
It's pretty funny how you're talking about "the whiny masses" while whining so much about the changes.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 11:51:00 AM
It's pretty funny how you're talking about "the whiny masses" while whining so much about the changes.
We are simply pointing out the facts.
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 11:57:04 AMWe are simply pointing out the facts.
No. You are whining. The nerdrage is strong in both of you, especially given you haven't actually
played the new game.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 11:58:30 AM
No. You are whining. The nerdrage is strong in both of you, especially given you haven't actually played the new game.
The only reason I have not played the new game was because my game group was cancelled because one of the players got the flu and I got married and went on a Honeymoon. We are due to start up again soon. So you can stop bashing me for that.
Secondly nerdrage is what the Game forum is all about. Feel the magic or get out of the way I say.
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 12:04:07 PMThe only reason I have not played the new game was because my game group was cancelled because one of the players got the flu and I got married and went on a Honeymoon. We are due to start up again soon. So you can stop bashing me for that.
I'll stop bashing you for it once you've played it. You see, the bashing is not about your intention to play the game but about you talking with great conviction about something you haven't had experience with :hug:
QuoteSecondly nerdrage is what the Game forum is all about. Feel the magic or get out of the way I say.
I'm feeling the magic and I'm laughing at it.
Like this: :lmfao:
I have experienced the FR campaign setting for years. Stories and changes that were lame in 2nd Ed are still lame in 4th Ed.
QuoteI'm feeling the magic and I'm laughing at it
Unfortunately you come off more as a 4th Ed fanboi who cries whenever we say something mean about it. Even if the plot of the FR campaign setting has nothing to do with the rules changes of 4th Ed.
Quote from: saskganesh on May 07, 2009, 10:19:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 06, 2009, 03:41:13 PM
I suppose it must be rough on people to have the physical rules of your universe change ever 8 years or so.
IMO, it was more fun to do your own world building, and plunder published world's for ideas. best part of being a GM ... and likely the best applied use of a history and literature degree. :D
When I was rather young, my friends and I played D&D based on the map of Europe. Our adventuring party conquered the island of Elba, because it seemed about the right size.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 12:41:42 PM
I'll stop bashing you for it once you've played it. You see, the bashing is not about your intention to play the game but about you talking with great conviction about something you haven't had experience with :hug:
I've read the Forgotten Realms 4th Edition Campaign Setting. I have twenty-one years of experience with the Forgotten Realms setting. I would say that I have as much experience as anybody on this forum, and probably more.
So fuck off and die, preferably of some awful disease that you picked up in Chinkland.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 12:57:03 PM
When I was rather young, my friends and I played D&D based on the map of Europe. Our adventuring party conquered the island of Elba, because it seemed about the right size.
Whenever I started a new campaign I always picked a real life ancient location. Part of the fun of my veteran players was trying to figure where and when they were and once they had figured that out, they needed to figure out what twists I had made to DnDify the world.
It was always great fun.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:02:56 PM
I've read the Forgotten Realms 4th Edition Campaign Setting. I have twenty-one years of experience with the Forgotten Realms setting. I would say that I have as much experience as anybody on this forum, and probably more.
The nerd rage is strong in this one. :lol: :nerd:
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:02:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 12:41:42 PM
I'll stop bashing you for it once you've played it. You see, the bashing is not about your intention to play the game but about you talking with great conviction about something you haven't had experience with :hug:
I've read the Forgotten Realms 4th Edition Campaign Setting. I have twenty-one years of experience with the Forgotten Realms setting. I would say that I have as much experience as anybody on this forum, and probably more.
I DM'd FR for 10 years and I approve this message.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:02:56 PMI've read the Forgotten Realms 4th Edition Players Guide. I have twenty-one years of experience with the Forgotten Realms setting. I would say that I have as much experience as anybody on this forum, and probably more.
If you were paying attention you would've noticed that I agree with you on the 4E Forgotten Realms and am not you castigating on that end. You for your part have not said anything particularly outlandish (once the usual Neil filter has been applied of course). You've read the new FR stuff and compared to what you know, you think it's shit. That's a fair assessment based on actual knowledge, and one I agree with.
The main target of my mocking is Valmy who's going on about how the system without having played it.
QuoteSo fuck off and die, preferably of some awful disease that you picked up in Chinkland.
If I end up with a disease like that I'll make sure to infect you and yours before I expire :)
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2009, 01:08:06 PM
The nerd rage is strong in this one. :lol: :nerd:
That is why he is a righteous man.
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 12:49:55 PMI have experienced the FR campaign setting for years. Stories and changes that were lame in 2nd Ed are still lame in 4th Ed.
You have every right to be annoyed at the FR changes. No worries there. I was all about giving them the benefit of the doubt, but having it seen it I have to agree they're pretty shit.
QuoteUnfortunately you come off more as a 4th Ed fanboi who cries whenever we say something mean about it. Even if the plot of the FR campaign setting has nothing to do with the rules changes of 4th Ed.
:lol:
Look, my point is simple. Judge 4E once you've played it a bit, not on internet hyperbole.
As for Forgotten Realms, the only thing that's funny is Neil whining about whiners having their way. I actually agree with him (and you) that they didn't do right by FR with the recent changes.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:10:27 PM
The main target of my mocking is Valmy who's going on about how the system without having played it.
Please tell me where I have gone on and on about the system. I have never made any comments about the system that I am aware of.
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 12:49:55 PM
Unfortunately you come off more as a 4th Ed fanboi who cries whenever we say something mean about it.
Or just a troll.
At any rate, I'll probably never play 4th edition. My reasons are many, but paramount is this: As you get older, and people get wives and kids, it's hard to get a game together. A bunch of guys in my group got together to playtest it while I was in Europe. The response was largely negative.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:10:27 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:02:56 PMI've read the Forgotten Realms 4th]
So fuck off and die, preferably of some awful disease that you picked up in Chinkland.
If I end up with a disease like that I'll make sure to infect you and yours before I expire :)
You should stockpile ether in case it's an STD.
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 01:16:44 PMPlease tell me where I have gone on and on about the system. I have never made any comments about the system that I am aware of.
Ok. Maybe you haven't. :blush:
Really, I just wanted to post something about "nerdrage".
This thread has broken several levels of nerd barriers.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:22:22 PM
At any rate, I'll probably never play 4th edition. My reasons are many, but paramount is this: As you get older, and people get wives and kids, it's hard to get a game together. A bunch of guys in my group got together to playtest it while I was in Europe. The response was largely negative.
My wife and my friends kids are playing with us. Which is one of the reasons it is taking so long to get everybody ready to play. When it was just us guys we had our priorities straight.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:10:27 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:02:56 PMI've read the Forgotten Realms 4th Edition Players Guide. I have twenty-one years of experience with the Forgotten Realms setting. I would say that I have as much experience as anybody on this forum, and probably more.
If you were paying attention you would've noticed that I agree with you on the 4E Forgotten Realms and am not you castigating on that end. You for your part have not said anything particularly outlandish (once the usual Neil filter has been applied of course). You've read the new FR stuff and compared to what you know, you think it's shit. That's a fair assessment based on actual knowledge, and one I agree with.
The main target of my mocking is Valmy who's going on about how the system without having played it.
I talked shit about 'Artillery'. Although the explanation you gave is sensible, the whole thing still rubs me the wrong way. It immediately makes me think I'm playing Warhammer.
QuoteQuoteSo fuck off and die, preferably of some awful disease that you picked up in Chinkland.
If I end up with a disease like that I'll make sure to infect you and yours before I expire :)
Actually, funny thing, I'm panimmune. Still, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't kill my wife with your slanty-eyed viruses.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:22:22 PMOr just a troll.
:blush:
QuoteAt any rate, I'll probably never play 4th edition. My reasons are many, but paramount is this: As you get older, and people get wives and kids, it's hard to get a game together. A bunch of guys in my group got together to playtest it while I was in Europe. The response was largely negative.
Fair enough, if your group isn't into it it isn't worth it. God knows there is more than enough material out there to run games in any of the older editions for a long long time. Every so often I get a strong hankering to run a 1 - 36 BECMI campaign... mainly to get to Test of the Warlords, my favourite module ever.
Quote from: Syt on May 07, 2009, 01:24:20 PM
This thread has broken several levels of nerd barriers.
As it is a requirement in all D&D threads to go where no previous level of nerdity has gone before.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:15:39 PM
As for Forgotten Realms, the only thing that's funny is Neil whining about whiners having their way. I actually agree with him (and you) that they didn't do right by FR with the recent changes.
What's wrong with that? Whining and snivelling works.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:26:50 PMI talked shit about 'Artillery'. Although the explanation you gave is sensible, the whole thing still rubs me the wrong way. It immediately makes me think I'm playing Warhammer.
Now Warhammer tabletop, there's a game I've given up on a while ago.
QuoteActually, funny thing, I'm panimmune. Still, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't kill my wife with your slanty-eyed viruses.
They should use you as a resource to combat the swine flu.
As for the safety of your wife, I'll try my best not to catch some lethal disease to begin with. That should keep her safe.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:28:50 PMWhat's wrong with that? Whining and snivelling works.
I didn't say it was wrong, only that it amused me. In fact if you can harness the maelstrom of nerdrage to make WotC publish decent campaign settings or unscrew FR then that'd be a good thing.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:27:31 PM
Fair enough, if your group isn't into it it isn't worth it. God knows there is more than enough material out there to run games in any of the older editions for a long long time. Every so often I get a strong hankering to run a 1 - 36 BECMI campaign... mainly to get to Test of the Warlords, my favourite module ever.
The first adventure I ever played was M1 - Into the Maelstrom. I'll always have a soft spot for it.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:32:37 PMThe first adventure I ever played was M1 - Into the Maelstrom. I'll always have a soft spot for it.
Did you level up on DM made adventures or did you just start with level 20+ characters?
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:30:35 PM
Now Warhammer tabletop, there's a game I've given up on a while ago.
I had a few friends who got into it in high school, but I never really did. I thought it was a racket, and not as cool as BattleTech in any event.
QuoteThey should use you as a resource to combat the swine flu.
It's not even a real pandemic.
Besides, I'm hoping I live long enough to get to a real post-apocalyptic world. This makes me rather ill-inclined to allow myself to be used in order to save life as we know it.
QuoteAs for the safety of your wife, I'll try my best not to catch some lethal disease to begin with. That should keep her safe.
If that's what you feel is best.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:35:46 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:32:37 PMThe first adventure I ever played was M1 - Into the Maelstrom. I'll always have a soft spot for it.
Did you level up on DM made adventures or did you just start with level 20+ characters?
We used the prerolleds in the back of the book. It was shortly thereafter that we started playing AD&D and conquering Elba with our own characters. After that, we moved into the Forgotten Realms, where we've stayed ever since.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:32:07 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:28:50 PMWhat's wrong with that? Whining and snivelling works.
I didn't say it was wrong, only that it amused me. In fact if you can harness the maelstrom of nerdrage to make WotC publish decent campaign settings or unscrew FR then that'd be a good thing.
I don't think that any amount of nerdrage can do that. The economics aren't there. What I could do is purchase Hasbro, and then command Wizards to obey me. All I need is four billion dollars.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:36:46 PMI had a few friends who got into it in high school, but I never really did. I thought it was a racket, and not as cool as BattleTech in any event.
Yeah, that's been my conclusion in the end. I do like moving miniatures around, tactics and strategy and all that but the way they manage the business feels too much like a racket to me. Also, at my painting speed, by the time I finish enough minis for an army there's been two main rule changes and a couple of new codices, meaning most of my units are no longer fieldable. Fuck that. I'm off to historical minis. No one is going to tell me that my Warring States Chinese are not table legal because the number of crew on a chariot has changed.
I think that's the main reason I'm good with 4E (other than just liking new shiny things) - there are more tactical decisions to be made by everyone. Fighters now get to do stuff other than say "I roll to hit". I can see why the flavour bits might put some people off (it ranges from poor to just above mediocre IMO) and how people who don't like moving minis around don't like it. That and it's easier to get new people into. I gave up making a 3E character with my wife... too fucking complicated. With 4E it took me just a couple of hours to get a party full of newbs (to tabletop rpgs or just the system) ready to play.
QuoteThey should use you as a resource to combat the swine flu.
It's not even a real pandemic.
Besides, I'm hoping I live long enough to get to a real post-apocalyptic world. This makes me rather ill-inclined to allow myself to be used in order to save life as we know it.[/quote]
That makes sense.
QuoteIf that's what you feel is best.
I think it might be. Not completely sure, I'll have to analyze it some more but my instinct says it is. I'll get back to you on that.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:47:39 PM
I don't think that any amount of nerdrage can do that. The economics aren't there. What I could do is purchase Hasbro, and then command Wizards to obey me. All I need is four billion dollars.
Well, if nerdrage could be formed into some sort of coherent servicable market that could work too. Though I suppose one of the defining characteristics of nerdrage is an inherent antipathy to just that.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:49:48 PM
Yeah, that's been my conclusion in the end. I do like moving miniatures around, tactics and strategy and all that but the way they manage the business feels too much like a racket to me. Also, at my painting speed, by the time I finish enough minis for an army there's been two main rule changes and a couple of new codices, meaning most of my units are no longer fieldable. Fuck that. I'm off to historical minis. No one is going to tell me that my Warring States Chinese are not table legal because the number of crew on a chariot has changed.
They would actually do that? Now that's just fucking cynical.
QuoteI think that's the main reason I'm good with 4E (other than just liking new shiny things) - there are more tactical decisions to be made by everyone. Fighters now get to do stuff other than say "I roll to hit". I can see why the flavour bits might put some people off (it ranges from poor to just above mediocre IMO) and how people who don't like moving minis around don't like it. That and it's easier to get new people into. I gave up making a 3E character with my wife... too fucking complicated. With 4E it took me just a couple of hours to get a party full of newbs (to tabletop rpgs or just the system) ready to play.
That's what I liked about 3e so much. The feats allowed some new options and some interesting customization. But what I liked best of all was the skill system. In my opinion, that was the best thing that had been done to D&D in years, and replaced the awful proficiency system from previous editions that nobody used. I even thought that prestige classes weren't that bad an idea, until they became a 'selling feature' (Buy this book! It has 5 new classes!). I guess what I liked best about 3e was that you could customize the shit out of your character.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:22:22 PM
At any rate, I'll probably never play 4th edition. My reasons are many, but paramount is this: As you get older, and people get wives and kids, it's hard to get a game together. A bunch of guys in my group got together to playtest it while I was in Europe. The response was largely negative.
This is the sad truth. You end up spending more energy getting people together then actually playing.
Still I DMed Forgotten Realms a long time ago (it was m first campaign) and was sad to see it turn out like this. I do agree with Jake though that there were to many high powered NPCs hanging around. I really wondered about the function of them. I figured they were developers PCs in gametesting. I particularly thought that about the Knights of Myth Dranneor. And it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's. It is a fantasy so some of that is inevitable. The NPCs disapearing doesn't bother me as much as all the deities. Or entire fucking nations! Or whole continents!
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:59:50 PM
They would actually do that? Now that's just fucking cynical.
Not when playing with friends and so on, but for tournaments and so on - absoloutely. Their business is to sell models so you can't really blame them, but it does leave a bad taste in the mouth.
QuoteThat's what I liked about 3e so much. The feats allowed some new options and some interesting customization. But what I liked best of all was the skill system. In my opinion, that was the best thing that had been done to D&D in years, and replaced the awful proficiency system from previous editions that nobody used. I even thought that prestige classes weren't that bad an idea, until they became a 'selling feature' (Buy this book! It has 5 new classes!). I guess what I liked best about 3e was that you could customize the shit out of your character.
Yeah, I enjoyed that too. The thing that people complained about, and which I can see, is that there was a pretty high barrier of entry. You had to understand a lot of rules to make a character, and there was a real risk of making a perfectly legal but very useless character if you didn't know what you were doing. 4E does allow a fair amount of customization and they're building on the prestige class thing, though that does include the continuation of the "buy this book for more classes" thing.
Have you checked out the Pathfinder stuff that Paizo is doing? Apparently they're publishing a v 3.75 or something, intended to be an updated and streamlined version of 3.5. There might even be a beta download available for free. Being content in 4E land I haven't looked at it, but it might be up your alley.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 01:51:48 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 01:47:39 PM
I don't think that any amount of nerdrage can do that. The economics aren't there. What I could do is purchase Hasbro, and then command Wizards to obey me. All I need is four billion dollars.
Well, if nerdrage could be formed into some sort of coherent servicable market that could work too. Though I suppose one of the defining characteristics of nerdrage is an inherent antipathy to just that.
Precisely. Plus, filesharing really puts a hurting on those marginal markets. Twenty years ago, small companies could get by on limited sales. At first, the Internet was awesome, because it allowed their customers to interact with them directly, without having to worry about distributors, local comic shops or mail order catalogues. These days lots of people are getting their RPG books in the form of PDFs from file sharing sites.
It's shocking how, in the space of 15 years, D&D has gone from being able to support ten product lines (Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright) to being barely able to support one and a half.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:04:45 PMAnd it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.
To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."
:barf:
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 02:10:12 PM
Yeah, I enjoyed that too. The thing that people complained about, and which I can see, is that there was a pretty high barrier of entry. You had to understand a lot of rules to make a character, and there was a real risk of making a perfectly legal but very useless character if you didn't know what you were doing. 4E does allow a fair amount of customization and they're building on the prestige class thing, though that does include the continuation of the "buy this book for more classes" thing.
Yeah, I see how that could happen. The intricate process that I enjoy could be a bit of a barrier to the more casual player.
QuoteHave you checked out the Pathfinder stuff that Paizo is doing? Apparently they're publishing a v 3.75 or something, intended to be an updated and streamlined version of 3.5. There might even be a beta download available for free. Being content in 4E land I haven't looked at it, but it might be up your alley.
I haven't, actually. Maybe I'll take a look.
I wonder how they managed to get away with that sort of thing without getting raped by WotC.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 02:14:00 PMI wonder how they managed to get away with that sort of thing without getting raped by WotC.
I think the Open Gaming License that Wizards put out with 3rd Edition is non-revokable. They're being a lot more tight with the IP for 4E too, it seems.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 02:10:22 PM
It's shocking how, in the space of 15 years, D&D has gone from being able to support ten product lines (Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright) to being barely able to support one and a half.
I remember reading an article on the Fall of TSR and it really couldn't support all those lines. They ended up competing with each other it wasn't very profitable. It didn't help the company was run by people who didn't actually like gaming at that point. Wizards of the Coast bought them up but couldn't keep it going either despite their enthusiasm.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 02:10:22 PMIt's shocking how, in the space of 15 years, D&D has gone from being able to support ten product lines (Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright) to being barely able to support one and a half.
Yeah it's a pity. I was always very fond of Mystara and really wanted to play Birthright but never did. The rest were interesting, but I left my heart in Mystara.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 02:13:15 PM
To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."
:barf:
I generally just ignored Elminster and the Seven Sisters and all that. It simply was not very interesting compared to the richness the Realms setting provided.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 02:13:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:04:45 PMAnd it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.
To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."
:barf:
Heh yeah. That was bizzare. I remember reading an article on how clueless the developers were on female sexuality. Apperently in one of those terrible novels they had one of those busty wizard chicks with a strapping warrior boytoy on her knee. :lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:21:08 PM
Apperently in one of those terrible novels they had one of those busty wizard chicks with a strapping warrior boytoy on her knee. :lol:
Females wouldn't want a strapping warrior boytoy?
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 02:10:22 PMIt's shocking how, in the space of 15 years, D&D has gone from being able to support ten product lines (Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright) to being barely able to support one and a half.
Yeah it's a pity. I was always very fond of Mystara and really wanted to play Birthright but never did. The rest were interesting, but I left my heart in Mystara.
Birthright was full of bugs and the rulership rules were kinda shallow (and contradictory and had huge holes) but it was still a hell of alot of fun. You got to be kings! Fucking Kings! I DMed this as a teenager and we made rules on the fly when there wasn't any. Such as fathering an heir, something typically not important in D&D but kind of important in playing a monarch. We eventually decided the queen had to save vs Rods or Staves. It was probably our best campaign ever.
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 02:22:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:21:08 PM
Apperently in one of those terrible novels they had one of those busty wizard chicks with a strapping warrior boytoy on her knee. :lol:
Females wouldn't want a strapping warrior boytoy?
She'd have a hard time keeping him bouncing on her knee!
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 02:13:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:04:45 PMAnd it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.
To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."
:barf:
Heh yeah. That was bizzare. I remember reading an article on how clueless the developers were on female sexuality. Apperently in one of those terrible novels they had one of those busty wizard chicks with a strapping warrior boytoy on her knee. :lol:
Wait a minute... How do you know that women don't like that? What do you know about female sexuality?
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:26:30 PM
She'd have a hard time keeping him bouncing on her knee!
She had superhuman strength being a super over powered FR character.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:04:45 PM
Still I DMed Forgotten Realms a long time ago (it was m first campaign) and was sad to see it turn out like this. I do agree with Jake though that there were to many high powered NPCs hanging around. I really wondered about the function of them. I figured they were developers PCs in gametesting. I particularly thought that about the Knights of Myth Dranneor. And it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's. It is a fantasy so some of that is inevitable. The NPCs disapearing doesn't bother me as much as all the deities. Or entire fucking nations! Or whole continents!
Well, the Knights of Myth Drannor and the Company of Crazed Venturers were the PCs in Greenwood's long-running campaign, but I very much doubt that Elminster was Greenwood's avatar, given that Elminster has been largely unchanged since Greenwood was a boy in the 60s. He's Gandalf that's a tiny bit more mischievous.
BTW: Using the phrase 'Mary Sue' robs you of all credibility.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 02:13:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 07, 2009, 02:04:45 PMAnd it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.
To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."
:barf:
I can only think offhand of the Simbul and Allustriel offhand. And even then, Allustriel's a free-love hippie who has been with thousands of guys.
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 02:20:35 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 02:13:15 PM
To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."
:barf:
I generally just ignored Elminster and the Seven Sisters and all that. It simply was not very interesting compared to the richness the Realms setting provided.
We didn't really interact with Elminster at all. We did perform some quests for Khelben Blackstaff, and when he was dead, Malchor Harpell. I think the only Seven Sisters we ever ran across were Dove and Laeral.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 02:10:22 PMWe eventually decided the queen had to save vs Rods or Staves.
:rolleyes: :lol:
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 02:43:28 PMI very much doubt that Elminster was Greenwood's avatar, given that Elminster has been largely unchanged since Greenwood was a boy in the 60s. He's Gandalf that's a tiny bit more mischievous.
I'm pretty sure I've read it in a number of places. I mean, Greenwood used to have a regular column where he'd write in the voice of Elminster while expounding on various Realms trivia.
But you made the setting and NPCs work for you, so kudos to that. When I ran games in the Realm I ignored all those super powered NPCs entirely as well (which is why I don't mind them being gone).
QuoteBTW: Using the phrase 'Mary Sue' robs you of all credibility.
What makes it so odious to you?
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 03:00:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 02:43:28 PMI very much doubt that Elminster was Greenwood's avatar, given that Elminster has been largely unchanged since Greenwood was a boy in the 60s. He's Gandalf that's a tiny bit more mischievous.
I'm pretty sure I've read it in a number of places. I mean, Greenwood used to have a regular column where he'd write in the voice of Elminster while expounding on various Realms trivia.
But you made the setting and NPCs work for you, so kudos to that. When I ran games in the Realm I ignored all those super powered NPCs entirely as well (which is why I don't mind them being gone).
He's certainly been a literary device. But writing an article from the point of view of a character is different from having that character be an author's avatar.
QuoteQuoteBTW: Using the phrase 'Mary Sue' robs you of all credibility.
What makes it so odious to you?
Three reasons: One is Martinus. Two is that the term strikes me as pejorative. Three is that it seems to get thrown around way too much, like any character that isn't crippled by faults or retardation is a Mary Sue.
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 03:16:56 PMHe's certainly been a literary device. But writing an article from the point of view of a character is different from having that character be an author's avatar.
Sure. It's not a claim I have a lot of stake in. I've seen asserted a number of places and it seems reasonable enough to me, but if you want to say it's not that's no skin off my back.
QuoteThree reasons: One is Martinus. Two is that the term strikes me as pejorative. Three is that it seems to get thrown around way too much, like any character that isn't crippled by faults or retardation is a Mary Sue.
I'm with you on 1., 3. could be a valid complaint, but 2. isn't really; the term Mary Sue is meant to be a pejorative - overpowered "perfect" characters inserted by the author into the fiction to serve their own wish-fulfillment. In RPGs that pretty much means any high level PCs from the author games that are immune to the plot yet remain significant in the setting.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 03:31:28 PM
I'm with you on 1., 3. could be a valid complaint, but 2. isn't really; the term Mary Sue is meant to be a pejorative - overpowered "perfect" characters inserted by the author into the fiction to serve their own wish-fulfillment. In RPGs that pretty much means any high level PCs from the author games that are immune to the plot yet remain significant in the setting.
In that case, it's inaccurate. The Knights of Myth Drannor aren't particularily significant, nor are they of a particularily high level (not sure where they are now, but they were 7th-9th level). Elminster was never a PC, nor were any of the Seven Sisters. The Crazed Venturers were high level, but pretty much irrelevant from an overall plot perspective. The only one that was even slightly used in novels or settings was Malchor Harpell, and there was a cameo from Nain and Savengriff in one of the last books.
Quote from: Jacob on May 07, 2009, 02:56:07 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 02:10:22 PMIt's shocking how, in the space of 15 years, D&D has gone from being We eventually decided the queen had to save vs Rods or Staves.
:rolleyes: :lol:
:huh:
Fifth level paladin in the service of Sune, I can have a 4th, 5th, and 6th lvl magic item. Ideas?
Quote from: Valmy on May 07, 2009, 09:55:35 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2009, 09:52:38 AM
Overpowered bad guys were fine. It was the good guys that were the problem, since many people whined about how they would just show up and solve all the players' problems. Of course, that was bad GMing, but the whiny masses have spoken.
Yeah I do not get that at all. You don't have to have Elminster port in and save you when the Chultan Yuan-Tis are about to sacrifice you.
Personally, I think CRPGs caused some of the problem. Around the WotC boards, I recall people complaining because the NPCs featured prominantly in the novels, and that the game should revolve around the PCs. While it's easy to do this in a computer game, it's laughable to try doing this in a shared universe the size of the Realms. Some players, primarily younger ones feel that NOTHING should happen in the setting unless it's caused by the PCs.
You know, the first Forgotton Realms published adventure I ran did have Elminster port in and save the PCs...
It came with the Forgotten Realms boxed set (2nd edition) and was under Shadowdale. Elminster could show up with his pet dog in the dungeon and try to teach in tricks. In particular to heel. Ever time he said "heel" his wand light up and heal the party. I am not making this up.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 08, 2009, 07:26:12 AM
You know, the first Forgotton Realms published adventure I ran did have Elminster port in and save the PCs...
It came with the Forgotten Realms boxed set (2nd edition) and was under Shadowdale. Elminster could show up with his pet dog in the dungeon and try to teach in tricks. In particular to heel. Ever time he said "heel" his wand light up and heal the party. I am not making this up.
:lol:
Healing is sometimes at a premium in parties. One of the few times I didn't play a cleric, nobody else would, and so the DM inserted an NPC that would show up now and again called 'Bob the Cleric', a kindly wandering soul who would often heal adventurers.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 07, 2009, 08:42:33 PM
Fifth level paladin in the service of Sune, I can have a 4th, 5th, and 6th lvl magic item. Ideas?
Put your sixth level one in armor and the fourth level or fifth level one in whatever Amulet of Protection is appropriate for that level. You'll probably in the thick of combat, and you want your opponents to miss as often as possible.
You'll want Stormbringer and Mournblade for your character Wags.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 08, 2009, 09:00:29 AM
You'll want Stormbringer and Mournblade for your character Wags.
Way too underpowered in this setting...
Quote from: PDH on May 08, 2009, 09:01:44 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 08, 2009, 09:00:29 AM
You'll want Stormbringer and Mournblade for your character Wags.
Way too underpowered in this setting...
Okay, he can be Raistlin then. Or one of the Taken from the Black Company books.
BE SOULCATCHER WAGS!
Soulcatcher was a chick.
Anyways Neil, I was thinking if you're ever in town I don't mind running a quick 4E game for you so you can try it if you want. Subject of course to schedules working out and me not having become sick of the game by then and so on.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 08, 2009, 11:10:00 AM
Soulcatcher was a chick.
NO, REALLY? :lol:
Best villain in the books. The Dominator? Pfft. The Limper? Pansy.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 08, 2009, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 08, 2009, 11:10:00 AM
Soulcatcher was a chick.
NO, REALLY? :lol:
Best villain in the books. The Dominator? Pfft. The Limper? Pansy.
She wasn't necessarily a villain. Most of the time she wasn't even an antagonist. The Lady was a villain. Bonecrusher was a terror too.