D&D 4th Ed. Character building

[Darth Wagtaros]

You know what I really liked?  The Taladas setting for Dragonlance.

Yeah whatever happened to that setting anyway?  Heck whatever happened to Dragonlance period it slowly faded away after 1st Ed as a D&D setting though alot of novels have been written about it.

Weis and Hickman have the gaming rights back, and were publishing d20 supplements for it.  As for Taladas, it was just one boxed set, one adventure and a brief storyline in the Dragonlance comics.  For a series as dependent upon the novels as Dragonlance, it didn't have much of a chance without significant support in the novels, which was impossible since all people were interested in reading about was Sturm, kender and Raistlin.

Taladas was the setting for the Dark Queen of Krynn gold box if I remember correctly, and mentioned off and on in the novels.

[Neil]

which was impossible since all people were interested in reading about was Sturm, kender and Raistlin.

Sturm?  Didn't he die in Dragons of the Winter Night?  I mean there are a zillion DL books and that is book 2.

Lots of them are prequels.  I think he has a kid that fills in for him later on.

Folks just loved Sturm.

[Valmy]

Lots of them are prequels.  I think he has a kid that fills in for him later on.

Folks just loved Sturm.

How exactly does a dead guy have a kid...oh fuck it is not some shit with he and Kitiara during that horrid prequel (I read it but I tried to purge my memory of it).

[Neil]

Lots of them are prequels.  I think he has a kid that fills in for him later on.

Folks just loved Sturm.

How exactly does a dead guy have a kid...oh fuck it is not some shit with he and Kitiara during that horrid prequel (I read it but I tried to purge my memory of it).

Correctamundo.

[Valmy]

Correctamundo.

[Razgovory]

In essence, they decided that people were turned off of the Realms by how rich the setting was, and by how much backstory was availible.  Therefore, as imbeciles are wont to do, they jumped the setting forward a hundred years and blew everything and everybody up.  Virtually every NPC is either dead or retired (although I imagine that Drizzt is still around somewhere;  Emo kids love the drow), and there have been major changes.

Baldur's Gate has become gigantic and important.
Thay has become entirely undead.
Mulhorand and Unther are gone.
Chessenta has been devastated.
The Chultan peninsula has been cut off by the sea.
Lantan has been completely destroyed.
Murghom and Semphar are now ruled by dragons.
Anauroch is gone.
Netheril and Imaskar are back.
Calimshan is genie-land.
The Sea of Fallen Stars has partially drained.
Luskan and Neverwinter are ruined.
The humans of Silverymoon and Sundabar have turned on the dwarves and allied with the orcs.
Sembia is a vassal of Netheril, and has gone about invading the Dales and Myth Drannor on their behalf.
Cormyr has conquered in every direction.
Damara and Vaasa have been reset to their pre-Bloodstone status.
Impiltuir is full of demon-worshippers.
Halruua has been destroyed and turned into swampland.
The Great Rift collapsed into the Underdark.  Well, deeper into the Underdark.  It's now a bottomless pit.
Dambrath got rid of the half-drow.  Now they're werewolves instead.
Luiren and Var are both underwater.
Durpar is using magic crystal to replace limbs, like a cyborg or something.  The country is mostly ruined.
Apparently an alternate world called Abeir has overwritten some parts of the Realms.  Thus, Chondath, most of Unther and Chessenta and the entire Maztican continent are gone, replaced with totally different places.
Mystra and Azuth are dead.  The archdevil Asmodeus ate Azuth in order to become a god himself.
Other dead gods include Tyr, Helm, Talos, Lathander (although he's been replaced by an ancient god of the sun), Mask, Eldath, Deneir, the entire Mulhorandi pantheon and all the drow gods except for Lolth and Ghaundahar.  Torm and Selune have been promoted to fill the gaps caused by the deaths of Tyr and Mystra.
Cyric is in prison for the murder of Mystra.
The Zhentarim have been largely destroyed by Netheril.  Zhentil Keep is totally gone.

Why the fuck did they do all that? I have no problems with campaign changing over time but it sounds like they got lazy and didnt' want to come up with content for a whole bunch of places.

[Jacob]

Yeah, they fucked the Forgotten Realms up pretty bad in 4E.  I like the new edition as a game, but I can't defend what they did to the realms.

[Neil]

Why the fuck did they do all that? I have no problems with campaign changing over time but it sounds like they got lazy and didnt' want to come up with content for a whole bunch of places.

Well, as I understand it there were a couple of reasons.  I've already gone into the way that the designers felt that people were intimidated by the rich, deep backstory of the Realms, and that the setting didn't allow them to do some of the things that they wanted to.

I'm not familiar with 4th edition (I'm not particularily interested in it), so I can't say if there were any mechanical reasons that they made the change.  Given that wizards aren't wizards any more, but rather 'Artillery', I would imagine that the magic system has changed significantly, but I can't say.

Another common complaint was that there were too many powerful good-aligned NPCs in the Realms, and that having people like Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, the Harpers at Twilight Hall, Vangerdahast, Nain Keenwhistler, Savengriff, Malchor Harpell and the like meant that the players weren't able to have adventures without these people butting in.  Thus, the solution was to either kill them as a result of the Spellplague, or have them die of old age.

[crazy canuck]

My guess is they didnt want to go to all the work of converting all the NPCs to 4th edition rules.

[Neil]

My guess is they didnt want to go to all the work of converting all the NPCs to 4th edition rules.

Actually, there aren't any published NPCs anymore.  They just have the one 4th edition Forgotten Realms book that summarizes the realms, the gods and some of the evil organizations of the Realms.  Highly detailed supplements are a thing of the past.

[Razgovory]

I suppose it must be rough on people to have the physical rules of your universe change ever 8 years or so.

[Jacob]

Another common complaint was that there were too many powerful good-aligned NPCs in the Realms, and that having people like Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, the Harpers at Twilight Hall, Vangerdahast, Nain Keenwhistler, Savengriff, Malchor Harpell and the like meant that the players weren't able to have adventures without these people butting in.  Thus, the solution was to either kill them as a result of the Spellplague, or have them die of old age.

That was pretty much the only good change they did, killing all the Mary Sues.

As for wizards they're still wizards.

'Artillery' is a label applied to some monsters (certain spell hurlers and archer types for example) to give inexperienced dungeon masters an idea of how to play them intelligently (these guys should hang back and use ranged attack; if you PCs have had difficulty with other artillery monsters in the past, they might have difficulties with these too).

[Neil]

That was pretty much the only good change they did, killing all the Mary Sues.

I disagree.  Killing the people went a fair way towards killing the setting.

I also take great offence to the term 'Mary Sue'.

[Darth Wagtaros]

I think it was completely possible to integrate the  Harpers or Zhents into a good story.  or even my sucky ass ones. 

[Valmy]

Another common complaint was that there were too many powerful good-aligned NPCs in the Realms, and that having people like Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, the Harpers at Twilight Hall, Vangerdahast, Nain Keenwhistler, Savengriff, Malchor Harpell and the like meant that the players weren't able to have adventures without these people butting in.  Thus, the solution was to either kill them as a result of the Spellplague, or have them die of old age.

Huh?  There were tons of way overpowered badguys also.  I never recall the mighty NPCs being much of a problem.