D&D 4th Ed. Character building

[Jacob]

And it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.

To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."

:barf:

[Neil]

Yeah, I enjoyed that too.  The thing that people complained about, and which I can see, is that there was a pretty high barrier of entry.  You had to understand a lot of rules to make a character, and there was a real risk of making a perfectly legal but very useless character if you didn't know what you were doing.  4E does allow a fair amount of customization and they're building on the prestige class thing, though that does include the continuation of the "buy this book for more classes" thing.

Yeah, I see how that could happen.  The intricate process that I enjoy could be a bit of a barrier to the more casual player.

Have you checked out the Pathfinder stuff that Paizo is doing?  Apparently they're publishing a v 3.75 or something, intended to be an updated and streamlined version of 3.5.  There might even be a beta download available for free.  Being content in 4E land I haven't looked at it, but it might be up your alley.

I haven't, actually.  Maybe I'll take a look.

I wonder how they managed to get away with that sort of thing without getting raped by WotC.

[Jacob]

I wonder how they managed to get away with that sort of thing without getting raped by WotC.

I think the Open Gaming License that Wizards put out with 3rd Edition is non-revokable.  They're being a lot more tight with the IP for 4E too, it seems.

[Razgovory]

It's shocking how, in the space of 15 years, D&D has gone from being able to support ten product lines (Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright) to being barely able to support one and a half.

I remember reading an article on the Fall of TSR and it really couldn't support all those lines.  They ended up competing with each other it wasn't very profitable.  It didn't help the company was run by people who didn't actually like gaming at that point.  Wizards of the Coast bought them up but couldn't keep it going either despite their enthusiasm.

[Jacob]

It's shocking how, in the space of 15 years, D&D has gone from being able to support ten product lines (Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright) to being barely able to support one and a half.

Yeah it's a pity.  I was always very fond of Mystara and really wanted to play Birthright but never did.  The rest were interesting, but I left my heart in Mystara.

[Valmy]

To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."

:barf:

I generally just ignored Elminster and the Seven Sisters and all that.  It simply was not very interesting compared to the richness the Realms setting provided.

[Razgovory]

And it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.

To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."

:barf:

Heh yeah.  That was bizzare.  I remember reading an article on how clueless the developers were on female sexuality.  Apperently in one of those terrible novels they had one of those busty wizard chicks with a strapping warrior boytoy on her knee.

[Valmy]

Apperently in one of those terrible novels they had one of those busty wizard chicks with a strapping warrior boytoy on her knee.

Females wouldn't want a strapping warrior boytoy?

[Razgovory]

It's shocking how, in the space of 15 years, D&D has gone from being able to support ten product lines (Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright) to being barely able to support one and a half.

Yeah it's a pity.  I was always very fond of Mystara and really wanted to play Birthright but never did.  The rest were interesting, but I left my heart in Mystara.

Birthright was full of bugs and the rulership rules were kinda shallow (and contradictory and had huge holes) but it was still a hell of alot of fun.  You got to be kings! Fucking Kings!  I DMed this as a teenager and we made rules on the fly when there wasn't any.  Such as fathering an heir, something typically not important in D&D but kind of important in playing a monarch.  We eventually decided the queen had to save vs Rods or Staves.  It was probably our best campaign ever.

[Razgovory]

Apperently in one of those terrible novels they had one of those busty wizard chicks with a strapping warrior boytoy on her knee.

Females wouldn't want a strapping warrior boytoy?

She'd have a hard time keeping him bouncing on her knee!

[Neil]

And it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.

To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."

:barf:

Heh yeah.  That was bizzare.  I remember reading an article on how clueless the developers were on female sexuality.  Apperently in one of those terrible novels they had one of those busty wizard chicks with a strapping warrior boytoy on her knee.

Wait a minute...  How do you know that women don't like that?  What do you know about female sexuality?

[Valmy]

She'd have a hard time keeping him bouncing on her knee!

She had superhuman strength being a super over powered FR character.

[Neil]

Still I DMed Forgotten Realms a long time ago (it was m first campaign) and was sad to see it turn out like this.  I do agree with Jake though that there were to many high powered NPCs hanging around.  I really wondered about the function of them.  I figured they were developers PCs in gametesting.  I particularly thought that about the Knights of Myth Dranneor.  And it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.  It is a fantasy so some of that is inevitable.  The NPCs disapearing doesn't bother me as much as all the deities.  Or entire fucking nations!  Or whole continents!

Well, the Knights of Myth Drannor and the Company of Crazed Venturers were the PCs in Greenwood's long-running campaign, but I very much doubt that Elminster was Greenwood's avatar, given that Elminster has been largely unchanged since Greenwood was a boy in the 60s.  He's Gandalf that's a tiny bit more mischievous.

BTW:  Using the phrase 'Mary Sue' robs you of all credibility.

[Neil]

And it is well known that Elminster was Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue just as Mordenkanin was Gary Gygax's.

To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."

:barf:

I can only think offhand of the Simbul and Allustriel offhand.  And even then, Allustriel's a free-love hippie who has been with thousands of guys.

[Neil]

To vent my own nerdrage for a moment, I was getting really sick of all the max level arcane spell caster hot chicks who were all, it seemed, the "sometime lover of Elminster."

:barf:

I generally just ignored Elminster and the Seven Sisters and all that.  It simply was not very interesting compared to the richness the Realms setting provided.

We didn't really interact with Elminster at all.  We did perform some quests for Khelben Blackstaff, and when he was dead, Malchor Harpell.  I think the only Seven Sisters we ever ran across were Dove and Laeral.