http://news.yahoo.com/greece-shocks-markets-referendum-austerity-134616084.html
QuoteWorries that a planned Greek referendum could scuttle a plan to resolve Europe's debt crisis rattled markets Tuesday morning. The Dow Jones industrial average plunged nearly 200 points, and European stock indexes fell broadly. The dollar and U.S. government bond prices rose as traders moved into assets considered safe.
The Greek government shocked financial markets with news that it would put its unpopular cost-cutting plan to a public vote. If it's defeated, the country could drop the European currency and default on its debt, which would put the European banking system and regional economies at risk of another crisis.
"The Greek referendum puts the connections between European countries at risk, from free-trade agreements to the common currency," said Guy LeBas, chief fixed income strategist at Janney Montgomery Scott.
The Dow Jones industrial average dropped 194 points, or 1.6 percent, to 11,760 as of 11 a.m. The S&P 500 fell 23, or 1.8 percent, to 1,230. The Nasdaq composite fell 49, or 1.8 percent, to 2,635.
Banks fell hard as investors worried about how exposed U.S. banks are to European debt. Citigroup lost 4.5 percent. Morgan Stanley dropped 6.5 percent. JPMorgan Chase & Co. fell 4.2 percent, the largest drop among the 30 stocks in the Dow.
European markets fell ever more. Germany's DAX index fell 4.7 percent and France's CAC-40 fell 4.8 percent.
French banks have large holdings of Greek government bonds and would be exposed to severe losses if Greece goes through a disorderly default on its debt. Societe Generale SA plunged 16 percent in Paris trading and BNP Paribas SA lost 11 percent.
On Monday the U.S. securities firm MF Global Holdings Ltd. became the first big casualty of the European debt crisis on Wall Street. The company, led by former New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine, filed for bankruptcy after concerns about the company's holdings of European government bonds caused its business partners to pull back from the firm and ratings agencies to downgrade its debt.
The yield on the 10-year Treasury note sank to 2.01 percent from 2.16 percent late Monday, a steep drop. Yields fall when bond prices rise. The dollar rose to $1.36 for every euro.
The prime minister of Greece called for the referendum late Monday and the news sent U.S. stocks spiraling lower. The S&P 500 index fell 2.5 percent, which put the broad-market index below where it started the year.
Credit Suisse Group AG fell 9 percent after Switzerland's second-largest bank reported profits that fell short of expectations. The bank also announced plans to cut 1,500 people from its payroll.
The drop came a day after U.S. stocks closed out their best month in nearly 10 years. The Standard & Poor's 500, the most widely used market index, rose 10.8 percent in October, the biggest gain since December 1991.
We have all been screwed by a Greek man. Even Marti doesn't like that.
Quote from: garbon on November 01, 2011, 10:47:43 AM"The Greek referendum puts the connections between European countries at risk, from free-trade agreements to the common currency," said Guy LeBas, chief fixed income strategist at Janney Montgomery Scott.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.cheezburger.com%2Fcompletestore%2F2011%2F7%2F24%2F019d6a3d-a145-452e-9150-010be17f0231.jpg&hash=6b7482fcd3e6bc25f62930726417aec14baa60b6)
Would one of you Euro countries please invade Greece and get everyone's money back plz. I hear the Monastir Gap is lightly defended. :showoff:
I nominate Italy. They deserve a chance to do it right this time.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 01, 2011, 11:12:50 AM
I nominate Italy. They deserve a chance to do it right this time.
That would just lead to another German bailout. :rolleyes:
People of Europe! Rise up and take vengeance on the perfidious Hellenes!
Quote from: alfred russel on November 01, 2011, 11:14:12 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 01, 2011, 11:12:50 AM
I nominate Italy. They deserve a chance to do it right this time.
That would just lead to another German bailout. :rolleyes:
Yeah. I think ubermensch are needed for this job, sorry :(
This is pretty worrying. Looks like if Greece handles things badly then there will be big financial problems in Europe, which will also hit the US and elsewhere. I heard some talk of near calamitous economic results, especially in some Euro nations that are invested heavily in Greece, if Greece defaults.
Quote from: KRonn on November 01, 2011, 11:30:09 AM
This is pretty worrying. Looks like if Greece handles things badly then there will be big financial problems in Europe, which will also hit the US and elsewhere. I heard some talk of near calamitous economic results, especially in some Euro nations that are invested heavily in Greece, if Greece defaults.
..........and yet Greece accounts for just over 2% of the Eurozone economy. So we have an economic system where the tip of the tail wags the dog.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 01, 2011, 11:43:27 AM
Quote from: KRonn on November 01, 2011, 11:30:09 AM
This is pretty worrying. Looks like if Greece handles things badly then there will be big financial problems in Europe, which will also hit the US and elsewhere. I heard some talk of near calamitous economic results, especially in some Euro nations that are invested heavily in Greece, if Greece defaults.
..........and yet Greece accounts for just over 2% of the Eurozone economy. So we have an economic system where the tip of the tail wags the dog.
Which raises the question again of an orderly State bankruptcy if the Greeks reject this plan. Save the banks that were fool enough to invest in Greek debt and then let the country sink into the Med.
Looks like a significant portion of the government wasn't onboard with this plan.
Quote from: Maximus on November 01, 2011, 11:47:49 AM
Looks like a significant portion of the government wasn't onboard with this plan.
Hope for a palace coup?
Quote from: Caliga on November 01, 2011, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 01, 2011, 11:14:12 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 01, 2011, 11:12:50 AM
I nominate Italy. They deserve a chance to do it right this time.
That would just lead to another German bailout. :rolleyes:
Yeah. I think ubermensch are needed for this job, sorry :(
No problems like this when the Turks were ruling Greece. :contract:
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 01, 2011, 11:49:26 AM
Hope for a palace coup?
It doesn't seem like we'll be any better off if the government falls.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 01, 2011, 11:53:28 AM
Quote from: Caliga on November 01, 2011, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 01, 2011, 11:14:12 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 01, 2011, 11:12:50 AM
I nominate Italy. They deserve a chance to do it right this time.
That would just lead to another German bailout. :rolleyes:
Yeah. I think ubermensch are needed for this job, sorry :(
No problems like this when the Turks were ruling Greece. :contract:
Sounds like a plan. "Turkey, we don't want you in the EU, but how about you take Greece off our hands? For old times' sake?"
Any chance the Greeks will be tossed out and we can start calling non-Greek cheese Feta again?
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2011, 12:01:36 PM
Any chance the Greeks will be tossed out and we can start calling non-Greek cheese Feta again?
When did we stop? I have some nice Canadian feta in my fridge right now.
Now they're saying the referendum idea is dead--markets shooting up again.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 12:36:45 PM
Now they're saying the referendum idea is dead--markets shooting up again.
So there was a palace coup of sorts. Thank God.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 12:36:45 PM
Now they're saying the referendum idea is dead--markets shooting up again.
Nika!
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 12:36:45 PM
Now they're saying the referendum idea is dead--markets shooting up again.
The government may be dead though. It wasn't clear today if they'd last long enough for the referendum. Two PASOK MPs went independent today meaning the government's got a majority of one and the opposition have threatened to resign causing a lack of quorum in Parliament and new elections.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chinaoilpaintinggallery.com%2Foilpainting%2FEugene-Delacroix%2FGreece-on-the-Ruins-of-Missolonghi.jpg&hash=4b59a57adacd74270a682ab68fb043226edfda9c)
OXI! OXI! OXI!
Oh, awesome. (http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/8/49916)
:rolleyes:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 01:22:00 PM
Oh, awesome. (http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/8/49916)
:rolleyes:
Palace coup, followed by military coup, followed by.... can we just have a do over and deny Greece membership into everything. Maybe the Palestinians would like a nice piece of real estate in the northern med?
Quote from: Barrister on November 01, 2011, 12:15:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2011, 12:01:36 PM
Any chance the Greeks will be tossed out and we can start calling non-Greek cheese Feta again?
When did we stop? I have some nice Canadian feta in my fridge right now.
No you don't. Sparkling cheese, possibly.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 01:22:00 PM
Oh, awesome. (http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/8/49916)
:rolleyes:
Wait they just replaced the military high command? Fear of a coup?
Doing coups is the primary purpose of the Greek military, is it not?
Replacing the leadership of the armed forces? That's pretty crazy. But I guess it's not that long since Greece came out of a military dictatorship, so maybe they thought it was important to make sure the military knows their place?
Didn't the Turks just do the same thing?
Must be a local trend.
Quote from: The Brain on November 01, 2011, 01:41:07 PM
No you don't. Sparkling cheese, possibly.
The Twilight movies?
I just want to say that the outgoing chief of the Greek Army had a great name for his position: Fragkos Fragkoulis
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2011, 01:48:23 PM
Wait they just replaced the military high command? Fear of a coup?
That's it according to Channel 4 News. Apparently G-Pap may not last this cabinet meeting and the Greeks could be heading to an election this evening.
God damn, will the military guys just leave quietly?
Should I keep my DAX short overnight? :ph34r:
Quote from: Tamas on November 01, 2011, 02:44:47 PM
God damn, will the military guys just leave quietly?
Should I keep my DAX short overnight? :ph34r:
What options do they have? Who would seriously consider a coup in Greece, when it means you have to run Greece right now?
Quote from: Tamas on November 01, 2011, 02:44:47 PM
God damn, will the military guys just leave quietly?
Channel 4 News again's just said that apparently the Greek government was worried about there being a 'state within a state'. The Cypriot-British economics Nobel prize winner Christopher Pissaridies was being interviewed and did openly worry about a coup saying this is the sort of situation that historically caused them :mellow:
Apparently an opposition politician asked the Italian President to appoint a new Berlusconi-less government before the G20 in Cannes and President Napolitano was just on Italian TV saying he's considered dismissing the government but doesn't think the time is right at the moment. Don't know what's going on there :mellow:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 01, 2011, 02:53:58 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 01, 2011, 02:44:47 PM
God damn, will the military guys just leave quietly?
Channel 4 News again's just said that apparently the Greek government was worried about there being a 'state within a state'. The Cypriot-British economics Nobel prize winner Christopher Pissaridies was being interviewed and did openly worry about a coup saying this is the sort of situation that historically caused them :mellow:
Apparently an opposition politician asked the Italian President to appoint a new Berlusconi-less government before the G20 in Cannes and President Napolitano was just on Italian TV saying he's considered dismissing the government but doesn't think the time is right at the moment. Don't know what's going on there :mellow:
just wtf
Now the referendum is back on.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 01, 2011, 11:12:50 AM
I nominate Italy. They deserve a chance to do it right this time.
Good Gods no. Italy is the reason anyone is bailing out/paying attention to Greece to start.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 03:05:33 PM
Now the referendum is back on.
:weep:
That thing opposite of Nika.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 03:05:33 PM
Now the referendum is back on.
is greece trying to play the markets? get them down to buy, raise them to sell.... <_<
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 01, 2011, 05:17:50 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 03:05:33 PM
Now the referendum is back on.
is greece trying to play the markets? get them down to buy, raise them to sell.... <_<
It sure as hell looks that way. G-Pap padding his nest egg because his career is about to end.
Personally I think a referendum is a great idea. Accepting the deal and not accepting the deal are both going to have terrible consequences. With a referendum you mitigate a stab in the back myth.
QuoteIs the Rothschild Banking Monopoly Finally about to Be Dismantled?
Benjamin Fulford, 10-31-2011
http://benjaminfulford.typepad.com/
The situation in Europe is making it clear to all but the most brainwashed that something historical is taking place. What is happening is that the criminal element at the very top of the Western power structure, especially at the very top of the financial system, has been cut off from their money printing machine. As a result, the IMF and the major European and US money center banks are insolvent. No amount of lying or paper shuffling or propaganda is going to hide this fundamental truth. The governments of Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Italy etc. know that the debts they supposedly owe to bankers were created through fraudulent book entries and thus do not have to be repaid. That is why the banks suddenly announced that Greece only had to pay back 50% of their debt even though such a write off would destroy them. They are hoping for a tax payer bail-out that is just not going to happen. It is game over. The Rothschild banking nightmare is ending.
Even the highly brainwashed priesthood known as Western financial gurus and journalists are starting to realize that something is not right. The big announcement by European governments of a "solution" to the Greek and Euro crises is a case in point. If you analyze the announcement you realize that essentially the banks and governments are saying the banks will pay for 50% of the Greek debt with money they do not have. The governments say they will pay for it by "leveraging" the money they already have. They do not say who is going to be dumb enough to finance a bankrupt gambler who wants to quadruple his risk.
Please note that as soon as the "solution" to the crisis was announced, high level begging missions were sent to Asia, including French President Sarkozy. Why would they need to go to Asia to ask for money if they had come up with a solution?
The IMF, supposedly the world's "lender of last resort" is also continuing to admit they have no money. The reason is that the IMF itself cannot prove that its money comes from legitimate sources.
The fact of the matter is that the criminal part of the world's financial system is falling apart. The IMF will soon cease to be solvent. The same is true of the World Bank. The BIS is also in trouble. In fact, the entire Rothschild banking monopoly is in deep trouble.
The freeze of "trading platforms" remains in place, meaning that the controllers of the fiat system can no longer pump new money into the system. The best they can do is reshuffle money that is already in the system. New money will only start entering the global financial system once the new asset-backed system is in place.
"The IMF and the World Bank existed to force the Rothschild banking system on the countries of the world," is how an extremely senior Chinese official explained the situation. "Our goal is to reboot the system, to start over and set all the parameters in a fair way so that all countries benefit from the pooled assets of the people of the world and not just Europe and North America," he continued.
The original system was meant to have been run by the Swiss and protected by the Americans, he continued. "The basic failure was that the system of checks and balances failed and the people who were supposed to protect the system ended up abusing it," he added.
What is now going to happen is that the 100 countries that have so far joined the new system started in Monaco in August, are going to implement the new system in four stages, according to a White Dragon Society source. The US military and agencies will be involved in this process right from the beginning, he added. Efforts to intimidate generals by using corrupt institutions like the IRS to try to repossess their homes will backfire and lead to criminal prosecutions.
:tinfoil:
Grallon? :unsure:
That report would be a lot more credible if the reporter had gotten his unnamed White Dragon Society source to go on the record.
Quote from: HVC on November 01, 2011, 06:37:27 PM
Grallon? :unsure:
No. It's just some generic Nazi asshole.
Just saw a British banker discussing Greece in general. He said that he didn't believe they could restructure their economy, which they need to, because their economy's contracted by about 16% since the start of this crisis and the pace of contraction is increasing (I think he said from -5.5% last quarter to -7% this quarter, both annualised).
It just made me wonder what can the Greeks do? If the economy's in such a crisis that there can't be any effective economic restructuring what else is there to do? I think they need normal IMF procedures (which I think were put off to save Euro-banks elsewhere) and should default, within the Euro, plus shock therapy economic reform. But would even that work when they're in an economic collapse like this? :mellow:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 01, 2011, 08:01:28 PM
Just saw a British banker discussing Greece in general. He said that he didn't believe they could restructure their economy, which they need to, because their economy's contracted by about 16% since the start of this crisis and the pace of contraction is increasing (I think he said from -5.5% last quarter to -7% this quarter, both annualised).
It just made me wonder what can the Greeks do? If the economy's in such a crisis that there can't be any effective economic restructuring what else is there to do? I think they need normal IMF procedures (which I think were put off to save Euro-banks elsewhere) and should default, within the Euro, plus shock therapy economic reform. But would even that work when they're in an economic collapse like this? :mellow:
They can only devalue if they leave the euro. The basic plan of "voluntary" reductions of debt by private institutions was an effective default anyway.
So is Greece fucked?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 01, 2011, 08:20:04 PM
So is Greece fucked?
Even assuming they continue on their huge austerity program, and there's 50% haircut, and there's continued support from the EFSF, ECB and IMF then they'll get debt down to 120% of GDP by 2020. If there's a global economic recovery.
So Greece is efectively screwed, with no good options, mainly bad or worse options. And it remains to be seen the fall out around the world. They'll maybe take down financial sectors of other national economies around the world, slamming some fragile economies. What a mess.
Quote from: KRonn on November 01, 2011, 08:54:03 PM
So Greece is efectively screwed, with no good options, mainly bad or worse options. And it remains to be seen the fall out around the world. They'll maybe take down financial sectors of other national economies around the world, slamming some fragile economies. What a mess.
I just read this on Paul Mason's blog at the BBC. I think it sums up how bad things are for the Greeks:
QuoteBut if Greece votes no - and goes for euro-exit - there are several plans in the process of being published that explain what you have to do. Close the banks for days, ration food and energy, institute strict capital controls - with most probably a few fast patrol boats at Glyfada harbour to check every departing yacht for cash and bonds.
Later, you get massive devaluation, with inflation; your non-sovereign debts become instantly doubled so you cannot pay them (i.e., the stock of Greek private debt to external lenders, for example, or, intra-corporate debts).
Finally, you get the chance to become competitive again. (I base this on SOAS professor Costas Lapavitsas' upcoming document, which he has verbally outlined to me).
:mellow:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15539350
Edit: Incidentally what amount of Greek debt is now owned by government bodies? Surely the majorities been bought by the ECB, IMF and EFSF by now?
Good for the Greeks. When "austerity" = squeezing the working class even further, it's worthless. This is not 1942 Britain austerity, it is "austerity" precipitated by elite finance and reinforced by tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans. Greece has always been a colonized nation, from the Ottomans to their degrading Danish monarchy to a brutal civil war 10 years after the Spanish to a US/NATO-backed dictatorship within recent memory that must have all but destroyed any faith of the citizenry in the virtues of the same neoliberalism that produced this very crisis.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
Good for the Greeks. When "austerity" = squeezing the working class even further, it's worthless. This is not 1942 Britain austerity, it is "austerity" precipitated by elite finance and reinforced by tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans. Greece has always been a colonized nation, from the Ottomans to their degrading Danish monarchy to a brutal civil war 10 years after the Spanish to a US/NATO-backed dictatorship within recent memory that must have all but destroyed any faith of the citizenry in the virtues of the same neoliberalism that produced this very crisis.
neoliberalism? Ever-rising number and salaries of the greek public sector, for the last 30 years? The medieval guild systems enacted in most trades? In general, the rampant overspending, given extra fuel by the cheap loans the euro gave to the government. Come on.
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2011, 03:36:05 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2011, 03:05:33 PM
Now the referendum is back on.
:weep:
That thing opposite of Nika.
That thing is called "back to normal" in Greece.
But seriously. Fucking Greeks. Them and Icelanders are the biggest scum in Europe.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 01, 2011, 08:01:28 PM
Just saw a British banker discussing Greece in general. He said that he didn't believe they could restructure their economy, which they need to, because their economy's contracted by about 16% since the start of this crisis and the pace of contraction is increasing (I think he said from -5.5% last quarter to -7% this quarter, both annualised).
It just made me wonder what can the Greeks do? If the economy's in such a crisis that there can't be any effective economic restructuring what else is there to do? I think they need normal IMF procedures (which I think were put off to save Euro-banks elsewhere) and should default, within the Euro, plus shock therapy economic reform. But would even that work when they're in an economic collapse like this? :mellow:
The problem is that there is no majority consensus there for shock therapy economic reform. These things worked in countries like Poland, because the majority was convinced this was necessary and just grit their teeth. Now, Greeks are protesting and a lot of leftist luminaries, like Zizek, are telling Greeks they are right.
This is a classic problem with sovereign debts - sovereigns cannot be really forced to repay them if they don't want to.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
Good for the Greeks. When "austerity" = squeezing the working class even further, it's worthless. This is not 1942 Britain austerity, it is "austerity" precipitated by elite finance and reinforced by tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans. Greece has always been a colonized nation, from the Ottomans to their degrading Danish monarchy to a brutal civil war 10 years after the Spanish to a US/NATO-backed dictatorship within recent memory that must have all but destroyed any faith of the citizenry in the virtues of the same neoliberalism that produced this very crisis.
See? That's what I meant.
Quote from: Tamas on November 02, 2011, 02:33:50 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
Good for the Greeks. When "austerity" = squeezing the working class even further, it's worthless. This is not 1942 Britain austerity, it is "austerity" precipitated by elite finance and reinforced by tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans. Greece has always been a colonized nation, from the Ottomans to their degrading Danish monarchy to a brutal civil war 10 years after the Spanish to a US/NATO-backed dictatorship within recent memory that must have all but destroyed any faith of the citizenry in the virtues of the same neoliberalism that produced this very crisis.
neoliberalism? Ever-rising number and salaries of the greek public sector, for the last 30 years? The medieval guild systems enacted in most trades? In general, the rampant overspending, given extra fuel by the cheap loans the euro gave to the government. Come on.
indeed, very little liberalism present there. It's probably one of the most "socialist"-corporatist states in europe
Quote from: Tamas on November 02, 2011, 02:33:50 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
Good for the Greeks. When "austerity" = squeezing the working class even further, it's worthless. This is not 1942 Britain austerity, it is "austerity" precipitated by elite finance and reinforced by tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans. Greece has always been a colonized nation, from the Ottomans to their degrading Danish monarchy to a brutal civil war 10 years after the Spanish to a US/NATO-backed dictatorship within recent memory that must have all but destroyed any faith of the citizenry in the virtues of the same neoliberalism that produced this very crisis.
neoliberalism? Ever-rising number and salaries of the greek public sector, for the last 30 years? The medieval guild systems enacted in most trades? In general, the rampant overspending, given extra fuel by the cheap loans the euro gave to the government. Come on.
Neoliberalism is the today's economic left's word for "bad". It is used against anything they don't like. It's like "fascism" in politics - a completely devalued and misused word.
In all of this, the thing that pisses me off the most are voices from some leftist quarters in Europe, saying that this should be a subject of a referendum, because this is what "democracy is all about". Really?
So why don't you hold a referendum on death penalty. Or whether we should keep or kick out immigrants from Africa and Middle East. And then let's see what results the direct democracy produces (incidentally, an average voter probably is able to form a more informed opinion about either of these measures than about whether the bail out deal is good for Greece).
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
...tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans.
How is it racist when they're the same race?
The "omg finally Greek people will rise against the EVILS of capitalism!" comments would be extremely funny if they were not so dangerous.
it was the Greek people who basked in the shower of loaned money their leaders bathed them in. Now it is time to pay that money back, and suddenly it is below their dignity to do so?
Fuck them.
Quote from: citizen k on November 02, 2011, 04:17:08 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
...tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans.
How is it racist when they're the same race?
"Racist" is another of these words. :cool:
Got to agree with the black bread brigade here. Greece isn't the victim of some colonial conspiracy here. Unless you consider the Euro a form of colonization.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 01, 2011, 08:01:28 PM
It just made me wonder what can the Greeks do?
They can lower their wages and make their products and services competitive again.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 02, 2011, 06:46:37 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 01, 2011, 08:01:28 PM
It just made me wonder what can the Greeks do?
They can lower their wages and make their products and services competitive again.
But that doesn't solve the problem of the existing debt, it just reduces future debt.
I think we have to recognize that there is a point at which avoiding a Greek default and boot from the Euro zone is more expensive than just dealing with it. In that sense, a Greek referendum makes some sense; not as much sense as an election, though. P'do's referendum is just a circus held to avoid an election he would lose.
It needs to be made very clear to the Greeks that a no vote on the bailout is a no vote on Greece in the EU.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
Good for the Greeks. When "austerity" = squeezing the working class even further, it's worthless. This is not 1942 Britain austerity, it is "austerity" precipitated by elite finance and reinforced by tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans. Greece has always been a colonized nation, from the Ottomans to their degrading Danish monarchy to a brutal civil war 10 years after the Spanish to a US/NATO-backed dictatorship within recent memory that must have all but destroyed any faith of the citizenry in the virtues of the same neoliberalism that produced this very crisis.
If elite finance were to somehow rid itself of its tired racist morality tropes and neocolonialist attitudes, and then presumably lend as much money as Greece wanted to borrow at 3 or 4% interest, would everything turn out swell?
What were the rates they were borrowing at before?
Hey Mihali can i borrow some money? i promise t pay it back. and if i don't it's not like it'll ruin your finances or anything :P
Quote from: citizen k on November 02, 2011, 04:17:08 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
...tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans.
How is it racist when they're the same race?
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: citizen k on November 02, 2011, 04:17:08 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
...tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans.
How is it racist when they're the same race?
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
I've been insulted by a damn ukranian. One living in alberta, just to make it worse <_< :P
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
Good for the Greeks. When "austerity" = squeezing the working class even further, it's worthless. This is not 1942 Britain austerity, it is "austerity" precipitated by elite finance and reinforced by tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans. Greece has always been a colonized nation, from the Ottomans to their degrading Danish monarchy to a brutal civil war 10 years after the Spanish to a US/NATO-backed dictatorship within recent memory that must have all but destroyed any faith of the citizenry in the virtues of the same neoliberalism that produced this very crisis.
I don't see how any of that is going to magically make the money to pay back their lenders appear out of nowhere.
Unless you think having a history of victimization means you should not have to pay back loans. Did neoliberalism render the Greek nation unable to do basic math when they were borrowing all that money? Remind me never to loan money to anybody who has ever been colonized I guess it makes you think you get stuff for nothing.
Quote from: citizen k on November 02, 2011, 04:17:08 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
...tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans.
How is it racist when they're the same race?
How is it racist when someone attacks blacks? Racism is not biological...
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
Eh close enough.
I am not sure the model of household economics is especially relevant to the situation of States borrowing and international finance.
Quote from: PDH on November 02, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
How is it racist when someone attacks blacks? Racism is not biological...
Are you sure there is not some racist gene in there?
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: citizen k on November 02, 2011, 04:17:08 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
...tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans.
How is it racist when they're the same race?
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
I don't think Protestant is a race though.
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
:rolleyes: Channeling Slargos bullshit for a particular reason?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 02, 2011, 09:12:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
:rolleyes: Channeling Slargos bullshit for a particular reason?
He is in a weird mood today. He has been making fun of plj's daughter's nose for some odd reason in the College Football thread.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 02, 2011, 09:12:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
:rolleyes: Channeling Slargos bullshit for a particular reason?
I've been trolling HVC for at least a year with the 'latinos are not white' line. -_-
Quote from: Valmy on November 02, 2011, 09:13:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 02, 2011, 09:12:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
:rolleyes: Channeling Slargos bullshit for a particular reason?
He is in a weird mood today. He has been making fun of plj's daughter's nose for some odd reason in the College Football thread.
Get it right - I was making fun of PLJ's nose. :contract:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 02, 2011, 06:46:37 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 01, 2011, 08:01:28 PM
It just made me wonder what can the Greeks do?
They can lower their wages and make their products and services competitive again.
As Grumbler said that doesn't solve the problem of their debt. Plus - and this is why I oppose them returning to the Drachma - Greece has never been Germany. Greece has always been a sclerotic economy that alternates between devaluation and high inflation. So saying Greece needs to 'lower their wages and be competitive again' is like saying Germany needs to return to her role as the world centre of experimental high finance.
As I say I think a lot of this has been done to protect French and German banks, with little care for what's actually going to help Greece. If they were a Latin American country they'd have had a very different program.
QuoteI don't see how any of that is going to magically make the money to pay back their lenders appear out of nowhere.
I'm closer to Mihali's view than I used to be. But they'd default. They'd do what Argentina's done which hasn't been easy but has been reasonably supported by Argentines. According to Paul Mason's blog which I posted earlier the only reason he thinks that isn't setting itself up for the Greeks is that they don't have a Kirchner. They've not got a charismatic, slightly autocratic political leader who can pull it off.
So instead the only party likely to campaign for a 'no' - which will mean they're out of the Euro - is the rather unreconstructed Communist party. The rest, even the eco-left and the hard-right will probably support a 'yes' vote.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 02, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
As I say I think a lot of this has been done to protect French and German banks, with little care for what's actually going to help Greece. If they were a Latin American country they'd have had a very different program.
Wait aren't they cutting like half of their debt? That strikes me as trying to help Greece.
Quote from: Valmy on November 02, 2011, 09:23:27 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 02, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
As I say I think a lot of this has been done to protect French and German banks, with little care for what's actually going to help Greece. If they were a Latin American country they'd have had a very different program.
Wait aren't they cutting like half of their debt? That strikes me as trying to help Greece.
Yes, but it's not really aimed at helping Greece. It's to prevent a default which (a) risks contagion and (b) means a hit on their banks.
There's nothing very charitable about this. If France and Germany could throw Greece to the wolves they would. And rightly so.
Quote from: Valmy on November 02, 2011, 09:23:27 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 02, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
As I say I think a lot of this has been done to protect French and German banks, with little care for what's actually going to help Greece. If they were a Latin American country they'd have had a very different program.
Wait aren't they cutting like half of their debt? That strikes me as trying to help Greece.
The cutting of debt strikes me as a default.
Not if it's agreed
Quote from: Oexmelin on November 02, 2011, 08:51:02 AM
I am not sure the model of household economics is especially relevant to the situation of States borrowing and international finance.
Yeah, sovereign debtors do not go bust because they borrowed more than they can repay per se, but because the cost of their debt suddenly skyrockets. While prudent financial politics can help here, a lot of this depends on external factors.
That does not mean of course that Greeks are faultless.
Quote from: Tamas on November 02, 2011, 04:19:25 AM
it was the Greek people who basked in the shower of loaned money their leaders German bankers bathed them in.
Fixed
The Tamas/Martinus response helps explain why the EU is in danger of ending up a failed project. Even at the level of the relatively well-informed elite (yeah, yeah, hold the jokes), there is a lack of understanding of the fundamental interconnections in the financial system. There are no innocent parties here. If some states got hooked on financial crack, their behavior was enabled by the states that chose to profit from being the drug dealers. But what we see is that when a crisis arises, the pan-European balls of light rally around their tribes to chant and point fingers. It is Lincoln's house divided against itself, and no amount of fancy contemporary European architecture can keep such a structure standing for the long run.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 02, 2011, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 02, 2011, 09:23:27 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 02, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
As I say I think a lot of this has been done to protect French and German banks, with little care for what's actually going to help Greece. If they were a Latin American country they'd have had a very different program.
Wait aren't they cutting like half of their debt? That strikes me as trying to help Greece.
The cutting of debt strikes me as a default.
Somebody needs to let those guys at the ISDA know.
Quote from: Gups on November 02, 2011, 09:42:22 AM
Not if it's agreed
I don't think many were agreeing out of the charity of in their hearts.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 02, 2011, 10:18:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 02, 2011, 04:19:25 AM
it was the Greek people who basked in the shower of loaned money their leaders German bankers bathed them in.
Fixed
The Tamas/Martinus response helps explain why the EU is in danger of ending up a failed project. Even at the level of the relatively well-informed elite (yeah, yeah, hold the jokes), there is a lack of understanding of the fundamental interconnections in the financial system. There are no innocent parties here. If some states got hooked on financial crack, their behavior was enabled by the states that chose to profit from being the drug dealers. But what we see is that when a crisis arises, the pan-European balls of light rally around their tribes to chant and point fingers. It is Lincoln's house divided against itself, and no amount of fancy contemporary European architecture can keep such a structure standing for the long run.
Well, I know that, and I have always voiced my view that the Greek mess is the doing of German bankers as much as it is of the Greek government. However, the current situation is unsustainable and if Greece wants to stay in the EU/Eurozone, it must take painful reforms.
When Poland was adopting painful reforms in 1989, noone cared that the sorry state of our economy was caused by years of communist rule and "generosity" of international bankers.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 02, 2011, 09:07:49 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: citizen k on November 02, 2011, 04:17:08 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
...tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans.
How is it racist when they're the same race?
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
I don't think Protestant is a race though.
It's a race to the bottom. :cool:
Quote from: alfred russel on November 02, 2011, 10:32:17 AM
Quote from: Gups on November 02, 2011, 09:42:22 AM
Not if it's agreed
I don't think many were agreeing out of the charity of in their hearts.
Whatever the motive, if they agree it's not a default.
Quote from: Gups on November 02, 2011, 11:04:39 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on November 02, 2011, 10:32:17 AM
Quote from: Gups on November 02, 2011, 09:42:22 AM
Not if it's agreed
I don't think many were agreeing out of the charity of in their hearts.
Whatever the motive, if they agree it's not a default.
It is a de facto default. Whether it meets some legal or contractual threshold isn't my expertise.
Quote from: HVC on November 02, 2011, 08:46:57 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 02, 2011, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: citizen k on November 02, 2011, 04:17:08 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
...tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans.
How is it racist when they're the same race?
You shut your mouth. Mediteranean types are not white, ergo a different race. :mad:
I've been insulted by a damn ukranian. One living in alberta, just to make it worse <_< :P
No shit. It's one thing to get that from a German or something, but a Mongol-Slav? Yeah, right.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 02, 2011, 10:18:03 AM
The Tamas/Martinus response helps explain why the EU is in danger of ending up a failed project. Even at the level of the relatively well-informed elite (yeah, yeah, hold the jokes),
:face: :XD:
Quote from: Gups on November 02, 2011, 11:04:39 AM
Whatever the motive, if they agree it's not a default.
I think you have this wrong Gups. All modern day defaults have the lenders (or some minimum percentage of the lenders) sign off on the amount of the haircut.
That seems like a pointless semantic debate. You don't get haircuts unless it is obvious that full repayment is impossible. Therefore, whether lenders agree to a haircut, or have one imposed on them in some way, is really fundamentally the same (even if legally there are different ramifications).
Quote from: Martinus on November 02, 2011, 10:49:42 AM
When Poland was adopting painful reforms in 1989, noone cared that the sorry state of our economy was caused by years of communist rule and "generosity" of international bankers.
IIRC the US and Germany provided a few billion in aid.
As for the Polish debt, payments were suspended for several years. Ultimately, the Paris Club of sovereign holders cut the principal amount by 50% and then the bank creditors took a 40% reduction as part of a Brady bond plan.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 02, 2011, 10:18:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 02, 2011, 04:19:25 AM
it was the Greek people who basked in the shower of loaned money their leaders German bankers bathed them in.
Fixed
The Tamas/Martinus response helps explain why the EU is in danger of ending up a failed project. Even at the level of the relatively well-informed elite (yeah, yeah, hold the jokes), there is a lack of understanding of the fundamental interconnections in the financial system. There are no innocent parties here. If some states got hooked on financial crack, their behavior was enabled by the states that chose to profit from being the drug dealers. But what we see is that when a crisis arises, the pan-European balls of light rally around their tribes to chant and point fingers. It is Lincoln's house divided against itself, and no amount of fancy contemporary European architecture can keep such a structure standing for the long run.
yes, the bankers played the "too big to fail" angle which was given to them. They thought they were making a risk-free high-yield investment. Irresponsible? Certainly. But the ball was on the Greek side.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 02, 2011, 12:52:54 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 02, 2011, 10:49:42 AM
When Poland was adopting painful reforms in 1989, noone cared that the sorry state of our economy was caused by years of communist rule and "generosity" of international bankers.
IIRC the US and Germany provided a few billion in aid.
As for the Polish debt, payments were suspended for several years. Ultimately, the Paris Club of sovereign holders cut the principal amount by 50% and then the bank creditors took a 40% reduction as part of a Brady bond plan.
You can add Canada and the UK to that list as well (although the US and Germany contributed the lion's share).
If Marti wants to learn a bit about the aid that as was given from 1989 on by Canada and a sholarly assessment of the impact of that aid here is a link http://www.utoronto.ca/ceres/CIDA/reports/papers/PolandPapeSmalyuk.pdf
I for one doubt the positive impact on Poland's educational system.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 02, 2011, 12:34:05 PM
Quote from: Gups on November 02, 2011, 11:04:39 AM
Whatever the motive, if they agree it's not a default.
I think you have this wrong Gups. All modern day defaults have the lenders (or some minimum percentage of the lenders) sign off on the amount of the haircut.
Assuming you are talking about sovreign countries, could you give me an example? I always thought that Argentina simply didn't pay and I can't think of any more recent ones.
If you are talking about companies, I think there are loads of different situations but I would not call a creditors voluntary agreement a default (and nor would the dictionary or, I think, the terms of any loan).
Quote from: Gups on November 03, 2011, 07:05:43 AM
Assuming you are talking about sovreign countries, could you give me an example? I always thought that Argentina simply didn't pay and I can't think of any more recent ones.
If you are talking about companies, I think there are loads of different situations but I would not call a creditors voluntary agreement a default (and nor would the dictionary or, I think, the terms of any loan).
I was talking about sovereigns. Argentina settled a year back or so, a good long time after it's most recent default.
I have a suspicion, but no proof, that investors in Russian ruble debt lost everything. The difference is where the bonds are issued and what law governs them. The majority of Latin American dollar denominated debt (which I'm most familiar with) is governed by New York law. This is important because under NY law any unpaid creditors can seize any new loan disbursements as partial repayment. So the sovereign is shut out of the market until they settle.
Funny-ass day: Greek politics are in absolute chaos, the government has lost it's majority, which causes world markets to... rocket up high, in hopes that this will somehow cancel the referendum and makes accepting the deal easier.
Quote from: Gups on November 03, 2011, 07:05:43 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 02, 2011, 12:34:05 PM
Quote from: Gups on November 02, 2011, 11:04:39 AM
Whatever the motive, if they agree it's not a default.
I think you have this wrong Gups. All modern day defaults have the lenders (or some minimum percentage of the lenders) sign off on the amount of the haircut.
Assuming you are talking about sovreign countries, could you give me an example? I always thought that Argentina simply didn't pay and I can't think of any more recent ones.
If you are talking about companies, I think there are loads of different situations but I would not call a creditors voluntary agreement a default (and nor would the dictionary or, I think, the terms of any loan).
Greece is insolvent. Various entities and have tried to float Greece with below market interest rates, but this is almost certainly insufficient. They need more help. For reasons I don't totally agree with, the various EU governments don't want a partial repudiation of debt by the Greece. Governments don't want to reduce the principal that Greece owes them because that will lead to a public outcry (it would be an obvious transfer of wealth from their people to the "irresponsible" Greeks). So the solution seems to be to tell banks (backed and regulated by governments, and also unpopular atm) that they are going to take the losses.
And really, it seems fair enough, if we can suspend all disbelief and assume this will work. Government along with banks have most of the debt, so the government and quasi governmental agencies can transfer money to Greece through a variety of means (such as below market interest rates) and the banks can "volunatarily" take the losses on capital. Ordinary investors can be fully repaid and voters can be told that all the money they lent to Greece was paid back. A high speed disaster is converted to a tedious headache, and there is a fig leaf to deny that anyone really bailed out Greece. This is corporatist government at its finest.
But it doesn't change that Greece has lent out money that it can't, and for that reason won't, pay back. Whether that meets the criteria for a default is semantic, imo.
Don't disagree with any of your analysis so our difference must be semantic. For me a default means a failure to pay a sum of money one is contractually obliged to pay. If you boorow money from someone else to meet your obligations you haven't defaulted. If the lender varies his contract with you, you haven't defaulted.
In non-semantic news, the referendum has been cancelled.
Quote from: Gups on November 03, 2011, 10:01:29 AM
In non-semantic news, the referendum has been cancelled.
Nika?
que?
Quote from: Gups on November 03, 2011, 10:04:04 AM
que?
I greeted the news of the last rumor of referendum cancellation with an emphatic Nika, similar to how the Greeks of old once saluted a victorious charioteer before starting bloody revolts against Byzantine Emperors, but with this second one my Nika is more guarded.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 03, 2011, 07:16:46 AMI was talking about sovereigns. Argentina settled a year back or so, a good long time after it's most recent default.
I think they offered a 90% haircut and over the past few years the majority of investors have accepted it as better than nothing. There's still a few hold-outs, for a long-time there were a lot more.
QuoteI have a suspicion, but no proof, that investors in Russian ruble debt lost everything. The difference is where the bonds are issued and what law governs them. The majority of Latin American dollar denominated debt (which I'm most familiar with) is governed by New York law. This is important because under NY law any unpaid creditors can seize any new loan disbursements as partial repayment. So the sovereign is shut out of the market until they settle.
I'm not sure but my understanding was that all talk of Greek default has been based on the assumption that they'll be shut out of the market.
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2011, 10:14:05 AMI greeted the news of the last rumor of referendum cancellation with an emphatic Nika, similar to how the Greeks of old once saluted a victorious charioteer before starting bloody revolts against Byzantine Emperors, but with this second one my Nika is more guarded.
It's so obvious when you put it like that.
Quote from: Jacob on November 03, 2011, 10:15:18 AM
It's so obvious when you put it like that.
It just seemed more fun than just saying 'oh good the referendum is cancelled'
I thought I was on a board with history nerds for godsake.
Quote from: Tamas on November 03, 2011, 07:33:50 AM
Funny-ass day: Greek politics are in absolute chaos, the government has lost it's majority, which causes world markets to... rocket up high, in hopes that this will somehow cancel the referendum and makes accepting the deal easier.
Maybe we should just accept the fact that markets are volatile, irrational and unpredictable. Recently, comments from market "experts" resemble ramblings of Roman augurs reading haruspices.
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2011, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 03, 2011, 07:33:50 AM
Funny-ass day: Greek politics are in absolute chaos, the government has lost it's majority, which causes world markets to... rocket up high, in hopes that this will somehow cancel the referendum and makes accepting the deal easier.
Maybe we should just accept the fact that markets are volatile, irrational and unpredictable. Recently, comments from market "experts" resemble ramblings of Roman augurs reading haruspices.
I vote we use some Eurocrats for entrail-reading purposes in this crisis ... ;)
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2011, 10:19:14 AM
I vote we use some Eurocrats for entrail-reading purposes in this crisis ... ;)
Or observe how many eagles pass over Brussels.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 03, 2011, 10:14:45 AM
I'm not sure but my understanding was that all talk of Greek default has been based on the assumption that they'll be shut out of the market.
There's a difference between being shut out of the market because any new loans get seized by creditors and being shut out because no one is willing to lend you money at any concievable interest rate.
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2011, 10:14:05 AM
Quote from: Gups on November 03, 2011, 10:04:04 AM
que?
I greeted the news of the last rumor of referendum cancellation with an emphatic Nika, similar to how the Greeks of old once saluted a victorious charioteer before starting bloody revolts against Byzantine Emperors, but with this second one my Nika is more guarded.
You young people and your internet slang.
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2011, 10:17:30 AMMaybe we should just accept the fact that markets are volatile, irrational and unpredictable. Recently, comments from market "experts" resemble ramblings of Roman augurs reading haruspices.
Yeah. I was watching the news last night. They had one head of a hedge fund on saying the Euro was going to collapse, it was unsustainable, Greece needed to default. Then they had the head of HSBC's ForEx trading saying the Euro wasn't going to collapse, bit more volatile than recently but will be okay, Greece may default and that the other guy shouldn't be invited on to talk about what he doesn't understand.
It made the wonderful Greek Communist MP a real relief. As well as flirting with Jon Snow and calling him 'my dear' she described the referendum as a choice betwee 'would you like to die or do you want us to kill you?' All in an extraordinary Arianna Huffington accent :mellow:
Quote from: Gups on November 03, 2011, 10:01:29 AM
Don't disagree with any of your analysis so our difference must be semantic. For me a default means a failure to pay a sum of money one is contractually obliged to pay. If you boorow money from someone else to meet your obligations you haven't defaulted. If the lender varies his contract with you, you haven't defaulted.
I'm leaning on AR's side on this.
Greece is insolvent. If Greece was a private debtor, it would have defaulted, since it would have been forced by law to apply to a court to declare bankruptcy the moment it went insolvent. That would have been followed by some form of composition proceedings where it would probably reach a settlement with its creditors the way Greece has done now.
A private debtor can roll / restructure its debt or agree to have it reduced, the way Greece is doing, without going bankrupt, but usually bankruptcy laws prevent it from doing so without defaulting first, if it becomes insolvent.
So I am leaning on the side that Greece has for all purposes defaulted.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 03, 2011, 10:22:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2011, 10:17:30 AMMaybe we should just accept the fact that markets are volatile, irrational and unpredictable. Recently, comments from market "experts" resemble ramblings of Roman augurs reading haruspices.
Yeah. I was watching the news last night. They had one head of a hedge fund on saying the Euro was going to collapse, it was unsustainable, Greece needed to default. Then they had the head of HSBC's ForEx trading saying the Euro wasn't going to collapse, bit more volatile than recently but will be okay, Greece may default and that the other guy shouldn't be invited on to talk about what he doesn't understand.
It made the wonderful Greek Communist MP a real relief. As well as flirting with Jon Snow and calling him 'my dear' she described the referendum as a choice betwee 'would you like to die or do you want us to kill you?' All in an extraordinary Arianna Huffington accent :mellow:
Did she tell Jon Snow that he knows nothing? :nerd:
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2011, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 03, 2011, 07:33:50 AM
Funny-ass day: Greek politics are in absolute chaos, the government has lost it's majority, which causes world markets to... rocket up high, in hopes that this will somehow cancel the referendum and makes accepting the deal easier.
Maybe we should just accept the fact that markets are volatile, irrational and unpredictable. Recently, comments from market "experts" resemble ramblings of Roman augurs reading haruspices.
What may bolster this is the understanding that Greece isn't actually big enough to matter. Greece is relevant because of: a) it is a signal of what will happen in Spain and Italy (not sure I buy this), and b) a lot of its debt is held by financial institutions in larger countries, and if the debt goes into default those institutions could be undermined unleashing another credit crisis (I might have bought this a while back, but institutions have had a lot of time to prepare, and the recent deal reducing debt by 50% brought a positive market reaction and no new credit trauma).
Quote from: Martinus on November 02, 2011, 03:43:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 02, 2011, 02:33:50 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 02, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
Good for the Greeks. When "austerity" = squeezing the working class even further, it's worthless. This is not 1942 Britain austerity, it is "austerity" precipitated by elite finance and reinforced by tired racist morality tropes about hardworking Protestants and lazy Mediterraneans. Greece has always been a colonized nation, from the Ottomans to their degrading Danish monarchy to a brutal civil war 10 years after the Spanish to a US/NATO-backed dictatorship within recent memory that must have all but destroyed any faith of the citizenry in the virtues of the same neoliberalism that produced this very crisis.
neoliberalism? Ever-rising number and salaries of the greek public sector, for the last 30 years? The medieval guild systems enacted in most trades? In general, the rampant overspending, given extra fuel by the cheap loans the euro gave to the government. Come on.
Neoliberalism is the today's economic left's word for "bad". It is used against anything they don't like. It's like "fascism" in politics - a completely devalued and misused word.
:lol: Maybe you can go back to proclaiming yourself "a classical liberal" like you did five years ago, before your heated reaction to certain issues pushed you to become an ersatz leftist for a spell. A truly spoiled bourgeois who insulates himself from any critical analysis of his situation and his privileges can only experiment with any sort of oppositional politics, like the college girls who are "Bisexual Until Graduation."
Actually, I have drifted from "classic liberal" positions to what I would describe as "soc-liberal" or "social liberal". I still believe in free market but I believe it should offer some protections to weaker actors (consumers, employees etc.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
There's some great investments to be had here, guys. You can get a rate of 231% on Greek 1-year treasuries.
:D
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 03, 2011, 12:26:39 PM
There's some great investments to be had here, guys. You can get a rate of 231% on Greek 1-year treasuries.
:D
That looks like a great return. Is there risk involved? :unsure:
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 03, 2011, 12:11:20 PM
bourgeois
What are you some sort of industrial laborer or something?
Quote from: Martinus on November 03, 2011, 10:17:30 AM
Maybe we should just accept the fact that markets are volatile, irrational and unpredictable. Recently, comments from market "experts" resemble ramblings of Roman augurs reading haruspices.
Augurs read bird flight patterns, not entrails. :nerd:
Quote from: DGuller on November 03, 2011, 12:30:30 PM
That looks like a great return. Is there risk involved? :unsure:
:lol:
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2011, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 03, 2011, 12:11:20 PM
bourgeois
What are you some sort of industrial laborer or something?
:huh: I am bewildered. Do you have to be the opposite of the descriptive term you're using? If I describe someone as an athlete, do I have to be "some sort of couch potato or something"?
It's a 19th century term that people don't really use in conversational English unless they are...unusual.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 03, 2011, 12:57:38 PM
It's a 19th century term that people don't really use in conversational English unless they are...unusual.
Nonetheless, it describes Marty quite accurately.
Quote from: Jacob on November 03, 2011, 01:04:35 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 03, 2011, 12:57:38 PM
It's a 19th century term that people don't really use in conversational English unless they are...unusual.
Nonetheless, it describes Marty quite accurately.
What is the term that describes Marty quite accurately? :unsure: I assume you're talking about some insult or obscenity.
Quote from: DGuller on November 03, 2011, 12:30:30 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 03, 2011, 12:26:39 PM
There's some great investments to be had here, guys. You can get a rate of 231% on Greek 1-year treasuries.
:D
That looks like a great return. Is there risk involved? :unsure:
Nah, the fundamentals are sound, and this is the result of a speculative attack.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 03, 2011, 12:54:50 PM
:huh: I am bewildered. Do you have to be the opposite of the descriptive term you're using? If I describe someone as an athlete, do I have to be "some sort of couch potato or something"?
I mean I get the 19th century idea of a class who make money based on their ownership of capitol rather than labor or aristocratic rentiers. But in a modern economy, particularly where such a huge percentage work in service industries, what does that refer to? Because clearly Marty is not an owner of a factory with workers making money off their labor for him to alienate and exploit. Does it refer to people who are above a certain education level, or who own a certain amount of property, or make a certain level of wages, or what exactly?
Quote from: fahdiz on November 03, 2011, 12:40:38 PM
Augurs read bird flight patterns, not entrails. :nerd:
Roman augers read the livers of sacrificial animals (the auspices) as well as bird flights, meteorological and astrological phenomenon, etc . :nerd:
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2011, 01:59:53 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on November 03, 2011, 12:40:38 PM
Augurs read bird flight patterns, not entrails. :nerd:
Roman augers read the livers of sacrificial animals (the auspices) as well as bird flights, meteorological and astrological phenomenon, etc . :nerd:
What about the livers of Eurocrats and Bankers? Could they read those? :hmm:
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2011, 01:59:53 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on November 03, 2011, 12:40:38 PM
Augurs read bird flight patterns, not entrails. :nerd:
Roman augers read the livers of sacrificial animals (the auspices) as well as bird flights, meteorological and astrological phenomenon, etc . :nerd:
Actually a priest who read entrails was called a "haruspex". Augury explicitly refers to bird flights. It's definitely true that "augury" has come to refer colloquially to any number of divination techniques, but augury back then had a specific meaning.
This can go one of two ways :D
Quote from: HVC on November 03, 2011, 03:20:28 PM
This can go one of two ways :D
We should seek the advice of the augers.
Most drill bits probably won't have an opinion.
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2011, 02:06:32 PM
What about the livers of Eurocrats and Bankers? Could they read those? :hmm:
It's unknown, but perhaps we should try on a few.
I believe fahdiz is correct, though referring to haruspices in general conversation is likely to confuse, hence the extension of meaning for augurs.
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2011, 01:36:29 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 03, 2011, 12:54:50 PM
:huh: I am bewildered. Do you have to be the opposite of the descriptive term you're using? If I describe someone as an athlete, do I have to be "some sort of couch potato or something"?
I mean I get the 19th century idea of a class who make money based on their ownership of capitol rather than labor or aristocratic rentiers. But in a modern economy, particularly where such a huge percentage work in service industries, what does that refer to? Because clearly Marty is not an owner of a factory with workers making money off their labor for him to alienate and exploit. Does it refer to people who are above a certain education level, or who own a certain amount of property, or make a certain level of wages, or what exactly?
Yeah. By the 19th century standards, I'm working class, like almost everyone on this board.
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 03:53:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2011, 01:36:29 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 03, 2011, 12:54:50 PM
:huh: I am bewildered. Do you have to be the opposite of the descriptive term you're using? If I describe someone as an athlete, do I have to be "some sort of couch potato or something"?
I mean I get the 19th century idea of a class who make money based on their ownership of capitol rather than labor or aristocratic rentiers. But in a modern economy, particularly where such a huge percentage work in service industries, what does that refer to? Because clearly Marty is not an owner of a factory with workers making money off their labor for him to alienate and exploit. Does it refer to people who are above a certain education level, or who own a certain amount of property, or make a certain level of wages, or what exactly?
Yeah. By the 19th century standards, I'm working class, like almost everyone on this board.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Tamas on November 04, 2011, 03:58:38 AM:lmfao:
What? Marx defined the working class as individuals who sell their labor power for wages and who do not own the means of production. That's me, along with almost everyone else on this board.
I also do not own enough to live off the capital yet.
For someone raised in the Eastern Bloc, you seem to be woefully ignorant about terminology.
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 04:06:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 04, 2011, 03:58:38 AM:lmfao:
What? Marx defined the working class as individuals who sell their labor power for wages and who do not own the means of production. That's me, along with almost everyone else on this board.
I also do not own enough to live off the capital yet.
For someone raised in the Eastern Bloc, you seem to be woefully ignorant about terminology.
Just because you manage to fit it into an arbitarily choosed, grossly outdated definition, it still sounds absurd.
Quote from: Tamas on November 04, 2011, 04:12:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 04:06:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 04, 2011, 03:58:38 AM:lmfao:
What? Marx defined the working class as individuals who sell their labor power for wages and who do not own the means of production. That's me, along with almost everyone else on this board.
I also do not own enough to live off the capital yet.
For someone raised in the Eastern Bloc, you seem to be woefully ignorant about terminology.
Just because you manage to fit it into an arbitarily choosed, grossly outdated definition, it still sounds absurd.
What part of "by the 19th century standards" in my post did you miss? Once again you show yourself incapable of understanding written English.
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 04:19:42 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 04, 2011, 04:12:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 04:06:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 04, 2011, 03:58:38 AM:lmfao:
What? Marx defined the working class as individuals who sell their labor power for wages and who do not own the means of production. That's me, along with almost everyone else on this board.
I also do not own enough to live off the capital yet.
For someone raised in the Eastern Bloc, you seem to be woefully ignorant about terminology.
Just because you manage to fit it into an arbitarily choosed, grossly outdated definition, it still sounds absurd.
What part of "by the 19th century standards" in my post did you miss? Once again you show yourself incapable of understanding written English.
I understood it. Still hillarious.
Quote from: fahdiz on November 03, 2011, 03:03:29 PM
Actually a priest who read entrails was called a "haruspex". Augury explicitly refers to bird flights. It's definitely true that "augury" has come to refer colloquially to any number of divination techniques, but augury back then had a specific meaning.
The Romans had two priestly colleges; The College of Augers, and the College of Pontifexes. One member of each was required to start any official meeting; the auger made and divined the sacrifice (though had to consult "the book" when doing so, as taking the auspices was a legal function), and then the pontifex made the contract with the gods that would have them recognize the meeting.
There was no "College of Haruspices." All "official" taking of the auspices was done by the augers.
It is true that augery originally referred strictly to bird behavior (not just flights, but noises as well), but by the mid and late republic, Augurs had come to use to any number of divination techniques. When conducting major official meetings, this often meant animal sacrifice because the magistrates couldn't count on sufficient birds being around to provide an augury, and the auspices had to be consulted before the meeting was legal. Plus, the animal could be sacrificed after having provided the auspices. That was considered to bring good fortune in the enterprise.
That was interesting. I guess you just can't get such detail from history books.
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2011, 01:36:29 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 03, 2011, 12:54:50 PM
:huh: I am bewildered. Do you have to be the opposite of the descriptive term you're using? If I describe someone as an athlete, do I have to be "some sort of couch potato or something"?
I mean I get the 19th century idea of a class who make money based on their ownership of capitol rather than labor or aristocratic rentiers. But in a modern economy, particularly where such a huge percentage work in service industries, what does that refer to? Because clearly Marty is not an owner of a factory with workers making money off their labor for him to alienate and exploit. Does it refer to people who are above a certain education level, or who own a certain amount of property, or make a certain level of wages, or what exactly?
Yes. :)
It seems reasonable to see the nature of the bourgeoisie changing alongside the radical changes in capitalism between the mid-Nineteenth Century and today. High-end corporate lawyers facilitate the protection and entrenchment of today's complex capital interests, regardless of the consequences for the laboring population (which I agree is more and more a sort of service-sector proletariat). And they are more than adequately compensated for their noble efforts, as Martinus never tires of telling us, alongside his enlightened classism that he contrasts with the puerile ethnic/religious prejudices of the inferior classes. Attitudes, privileges, and, most importantly, material roles in the performance of global capitalism define the contemporary bourgeoisie to my mind.
The rise and current domination of the globalized and wishfully depoliticized bourgeoisie is one of the most significant material, social, and philosophical developments in the course of modernity. Relying on Marx's actual texts (rather than rehashed cliches), he notes that: "Civil society as such only develops with the bourgeoisie; the social organisation evolving directly out of production and commerce, which in all ages forms the basis of the State and of the rest of the idealistic superstructure..." (The German Ideology) Bourgeois actors may try to individualize themselves through their cultural views (gay marriage!) or consumptive habits (organic food!), but they are ultimately invested with tremendous transnational economic and political power maintained, rationally, in the interests of their own class.
As much as the Nineteenth Century's "two great classes" of the Bourgeoisie and the Proletariat have disintegrated in the face of a contemporary capitalism that is unconstrained by the nation-state, rendered incomprehensible by high finance, relies on new forms of wage labor (e.g. the service sector), dictates politics in a more discreet fashion, and mystifies itself through endless ideological justifications, I think the concept of the bourgeoisie is still relevant.
Far from being a concept held only by eggheads/idiots/reds, it has a lot of popular resonance, from David Brooks's awful books ("Bobos ["bourgeois bohemians"] In Paradise," to the pretty common put-down of calling someone "bougie."
To "update" Marx's immortal statement in the Manifesto of the Communist Party, I would write: "The postmodern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of industrial society has not done away with class antagonisms. It has but established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones."
:swiss:
Quote from: DGuller on November 04, 2011, 08:21:58 AM
That was interesting. I guess you just can't get such detail from history books.
:lol:
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 04:06:12 AM
What? Marx defined the working class as individuals who sell their labor power for wages and who do not own the means of production. That's me, along with almost everyone else on this board.
I also do not own enough to live off the capital yet.
For someone raised in the Eastern Bloc, you seem to be woefully ignorant about terminology.
First of all, a person who owns significant property but not enough to live off of that property alone, is not a proletarian under Marx's schema, but of the petite bourgeoisie. Second, in Capital, Marx distinguished the proletariat workers proper from those workers who exercise managerial or supervisory functions within the captialist system who have a dual (conflicted) nature.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 04:06:12 AM
What? Marx defined the working class as individuals who sell their labor power for wages and who do not own the means of production. That's me, along with almost everyone else on this board.
I also do not own enough to live off the capital yet.
For someone raised in the Eastern Bloc, you seem to be woefully ignorant about terminology.
First of all, a person who owns significant property but not enough to live off of that property alone, is not a proletarian under Marx's schema, but of the petite bourgeoisie. Second, in Capital, Marx distinguished the proletariat workers proper from those workers who exercise managerial or supervisory functions within the captialist system who have a dual (conflicted) nature.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.cheezburger.com%2Fcompletestore%2F2010%2F4%2F5%2F129149534265928119.jpg&hash=c010c2c9a8b7e42b2f357dce05db2c4978ec10e4)
Is there anyone on this forum who is an honest-to-god prole in Marxist-speak? I'd have thought almost everyone here was some sort of bourgeoisie, petite or otherwise, or at least a bourgie wannabe.
It's hard, being without any real-life proles to oppress. :cry:
Well, except for Slargos, of course. :D
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
First of all, a person who owns significant property but not enough to live off of that property alone, is not a proletarian under Marx's schema, but of the petite bourgeoisie. Second, in Capital, Marx distinguished the proletariat workers proper from those workers who exercise managerial or supervisory functions within the captialist system who have a dual (conflicted) nature.
I always thought petite bourgeoisie was a cop out personally. Just a catagory to lump everybody who did not fit in one of his other catagories.
Quote from: Valmy on November 04, 2011, 10:47:53 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
First of all, a person who owns significant property but not enough to live off of that property alone, is not a proletarian under Marx's schema, but of the petite bourgeoisie. Second, in Capital, Marx distinguished the proletariat workers proper from those workers who exercise managerial or supervisory functions within the captialist system who have a dual (conflicted) nature.
I always thought petite bourgeoisie was a cop out personally. Just a catagory to lump everybody who did not fit in one of his other catagories.
A typical petit-bourgeois comment :P
Quote from: DGuller on November 04, 2011, 08:21:58 AM
That was interesting. I guess you just can't get such detail from history books.
You probably could have, had you not been so focused on coloring in the pictures.
I have no doubt that the divinations of the haruspex were later absorbed by the College of Augurs (despite originating in different areas and thus being quite separate initially) and thus am not sure it's worth arguing about. I will say that I found this interesting reading material on the subject of augury and the College of Augurs.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Augurium.html
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 04, 2011, 10:00:38 AM
the pretty common put-down of calling someone "bougie."
Common where? :huh:
I'm a prole. :(
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2011, 01:59:53 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on November 03, 2011, 12:40:38 PM
Augurs read bird flight patterns, not entrails. :nerd:
Roman augers read the livers of sacrificial animals (the auspices) as well as bird flights, meteorological and astrological phenomenon, etc . :nerd:
That must have been what some of our bank, financial corp leaders and some politicians were relying on for decision making, to get us to the economic turmoil we're in. :D
Quote from: KRonn on November 04, 2011, 11:37:53 AM
That must have been what some of our bank, financial corp leaders and some politicians were relying on for decision making, to get us to the economic turmoil we're in. :D
They'd probably have been *better off* relying on that than what they ended up with. :D
Quote from: DGuller on November 04, 2011, 08:21:58 AM
That was interesting. I guess you just can't get such detail from history books.
I imagine it does help to have been there.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 04, 2011, 11:24:50 AM
Common where? :huh:
At least where I live (California) it's a somewhat common adjective to describe snobbish upper middle class people or things.
"Wino" used to be a commonly used term here. We now call them Occupiers.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 12:38:37 PM
"Wino" used to be a commonly used term here. We now call them Occupiers.
a) wrong thread.
b) why so much hate? Are the Occupiers affecting your day-to-day life that much?
Quote from: fahdiz on November 04, 2011, 12:39:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 12:38:37 PM
"Wino" used to be a commonly used term here. We now call them Occupiers.
a) wrong thread.
b) why so much hate? Are the Occupiers affecting your day-to-day life that much?
a) not it isnt;
b) yes they are
Quote from: fahdiz on November 04, 2011, 12:39:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 12:38:37 PM
"Wino" used to be a commonly used term here. We now call them Occupiers.
a) wrong thread.
b) why so much hate? Are the Occupiers affecting your day-to-day life that much?
b) They're occupying a space close to his office. CC gets to hear every single chant they make as he goes about his work. That would tend to piss me off too.
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2011, 12:51:16 PM
b) They're occupying a space close to his office. CC gets to hear every single chant they make as he goes about his work. That would tend to piss me off too.
Ah, yeah. I've a friend who works in the building right across the street from the Occupy protests here. He takes lots of phone photos of the spectacle and posts them on Facebook.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 04:06:12 AM
What? Marx defined the working class as individuals who sell their labor power for wages and who do not own the means of production. That's me, along with almost everyone else on this board.
I also do not own enough to live off the capital yet.
For someone raised in the Eastern Bloc, you seem to be woefully ignorant about terminology.
First of all, a person who owns significant property but not enough to live off of that property alone, is not a proletarian under Marx's schema, but of the petite bourgeoisie. Second, in Capital, Marx distinguished the proletariat workers proper from those workers who exercise managerial or supervisory functions within the captialist system who have a dual (conflicted) nature.
You'd think the Marty would have picked up on this in school.
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2011, 10:20:23 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 03, 2011, 10:19:14 AM
I vote we use some Eurocrats for entrail-reading purposes in this crisis ... ;)
Or observe how many eagles pass over Brussels.
you'll have to find some F15-eagles for that I fear. Real ones is a no go.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 10:46:14 AM
Is there anyone on this forum who is an honest-to-god prole in Marxist-speak? I'd have thought almost everyone here was some sort of bourgeoisie, petite or otherwise, or at least a bourgie wannabe.
It's hard, being without any real-life proles to oppress. :cry:
Well, except for Slargos, of course. :D
I'm a Lumpenproletariat.
Quote from: fahdiz on November 03, 2011, 03:03:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2011, 01:59:53 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on November 03, 2011, 12:40:38 PM
Augurs read bird flight patterns, not entrails. :nerd:
Roman augers read the livers of sacrificial animals (the auspices) as well as bird flights, meteorological and astrological phenomenon, etc . :nerd:
Actually a priest who read entrails was called a "haruspex". Augury explicitly refers to bird flights. It's definitely true that "augury" has come to refer colloquially to any number of divination techniques, but augury back then had a specific meaning.
I work with someone who has -based on some of the Mesopotamian works (don't know which country)- done a real "reading of the entrails". Academics, lol.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 04, 2011, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 10:46:14 AM
Is there anyone on this forum who is an honest-to-god prole in Marxist-speak? I'd have thought almost everyone here was some sort of bourgeoisie, petite or otherwise, or at least a bourgie wannabe.
It's hard, being without any real-life proles to oppress. :cry:
Well, except for Slargos, of course. :D
I'm a Lumpenproletariat.
No, you're a Rumpelstiltskin. That's not the same thing.
No confidence vote happening now...
Edit: Pappy squeaks by.
The main opposition (led by G-Pap's former roommate at Amherst) still won't participate in a national unity coalition. According to the BBC the likely coalition will be the current socialist government party, the liberals (who want a flat tax, coupon based education system and so on) and the very right wing Orthodox Party :mellow:
I'm gutted that the one MP representing the PanHellenic Citizens' Chariot won't be in the government :(
Apparently, no-one outside of Greece got this, one of the reasons there's not been too much pressure on the PM to resign for the past couple of days is because yesterday was the 48th anniversary of his grandfather becoming Prime Minister for the first time (Edit: Ooops, for the second of three times actually) and it was thought a bit distasteful :lol:
Well, the markets are liking the vote. We'll have to see if they're still hitting the buy button in the morning.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 10:46:14 AM
Is there anyone on this forum who is an honest-to-god prole in Marxist-speak? I'd have thought almost everyone here was some sort of bourgeoisie, petite or otherwise, or at least a bourgie wannabe.
It's hard, being without any real-life proles to oppress. :cry:
Well, except for Slargos, of course. :D
I'm old nobility. :showoff:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 04, 2011, 06:17:24 PM
Well, the markets are liking the vote. We'll have to see if they're still hitting the buy button in the morning.
Its the weekend...