I'm surprised at the form the 2nd referendum takes. If I were the Dems I would make it just two options; Independence or Statehood. Statehood would crush Independence in that circumstance and the Dems would get another slate of Democratic (though perhaps culturally conservative) House members.
Although now that I think about it "sovereignty in association with the United States" and "the current commonwealth relationship" is likely to split the anti-statehood vote enough to allow it to win. Though of course, given that last poll I saw Statehood would beat either option in a straight up fight.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1985875,00.html
The poll I mentioned
http://www.prstatehood.com/news/poll_071408.pdf
Quote
(WASHINGTON) — The House has approved legislation that could set in motion changes in Puerto Rico's 112-year relationship with the United States, including a transition to statehood or independence.
The bill gives Puerto Ricans a two-step path to expressing how they envision their political future.
Initially, they would choose between remaining a U.S. territory or taking a different path.
If they decide to change their current status, there would be a second vote with four options: statehood, independence, sovereignty in association with the United States or the current commonwealth relationship.
Puerto Rico has had votes before on its future, but never one authorized by the U.S. Congress.
The options, IMO, should be:
A. Independence
B. Statehood
C. Tainted
D. Absolutely Appalled
:hug:
My view
1. Relieving Gringo of the burden of supporting Puerto Rico (Independence)
2. Continue sucking on the Gringo money tit (Statehood)
3. Jaron (No Change)
Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2010, 07:46:04 PM
The options, IMO, should be:
A. Independence
B. Statehood
C. Tainted
D. Absolutely Appalled
:hug:
E. Tim expelled from the United States
What is "sovereignty in association with the US"?
Quote from: Monoriu on April 29, 2010, 08:43:02 PM
What is "sovereignty in association with the US"?
Like a halfway measure between the current system and full independence.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 29, 2010, 08:44:51 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 29, 2010, 08:43:02 PM
What is "sovereignty in association with the US"?
Like a halfway measure between the current system and full independence.
How exactly does that work in practice? Like, Hong Kong? :lol:
I thought the current setup PR gets is the best--no federal income taxes but they get all sorts of subsidies. Become a state and become taxed normally, become independent and lose the subsidies.
Puerto Rico should only be allowed to become a state if English is the sole official language of the state.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 29, 2010, 08:09:17 PM
E. Tim expelled from the United States
:rolleyes: Already happened.
Right winger in favor
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDM2M2IxNWU2NjgwZTY2MzlhYWI0ZDZmOTg0MDJmMGM=
and the objections ( I hear Beck already has a conspiracy theory spanning centuries)
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzgyNGQwNzgzNjc5ZDVmMjM2NGU3YzQwNzYxMDEzMmE= (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzgyNGQwNzgzNjc5ZDVmMjM2NGU3YzQwNzYxMDEzMmE=)
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjJkYzU5ZjNiMDU4NjU5YTI3MzE0ZTkxMWRiZWQ5YTc= (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjJkYzU5ZjNiMDU4NjU5YTI3MzE0ZTkxMWRiZWQ5YTc=)
I say we cut Puerto Rico loose.
Are the dems so desperate? They are trying to force the issue in hopes they get some more dems in congress/senate, what if they don't?
BTW, with the way the local politics have been going lately, why would they want crooks in congress? Oh, yeah, never mind on that one.
Quote from: lustindarkness on April 29, 2010, 09:20:30 PM
Are the dems so desperate? They are trying to force the issue in hopes they get some more dems in congress/senate, what if they don't?
BTW, with the way the local politics have been going lately, why would they want crooks in congress? Oh, yeah, never mind on that one.
Why are Republicans so afraid of brown people? Oh yeah...
Quote from: lustindarkness on April 29, 2010, 09:20:30 PM
Are the dems so desperate? They are trying to force the issue in hopes they get some more dems in congress/senate, what if they don't?
I don't know what this even means. Why shouldn't Puerto Ricans get to vote on their future? We took em by force in 1898, kept em as a territory without statehood since then, and now people are worried they'll want to join us?
Quote from: lustindarkness on April 29, 2010, 09:20:30 PM
Are the dems so desperate? They are trying to force the issue in hopes they get some more dems in congress/senate, what if they don't?
From the pro-article I linked above
QuoteRepublicans who are afraid that Puerto Rico might send only Democrats to Congress might check their concerns with the island's governor, Luis Fortuño, a speaker at the 2008 GOP convention. Fortuño is a not only a Reagan conservative who has been elected island-wide twice in the last five years — in 2008, he was elected by 225,000 votes, the biggest margin of electoral victory in 44 years. While mainland Republicans struggled in '08, the GOP bucked the tide in Puerto Rico, with victories that included the governor's seat, president of the Senate, speaker of the House, Senate majority leader, mayor of San Juan, and a majority of mayors in the 78 municipalities, as well as the majority of state legislators throughout the island. These results are no surprise. Polls tell us that 78 percent of the island's residents are pro-life; 86 percent say prayer should be allowed in schools; 75 percent say displaying the Ten Commandments on government property should be allowed; a majority supports vouchers for private schools. An overwhelming majority of Puerto Rican citizens embrace socially conservative values.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 29, 2010, 09:27:41 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on April 29, 2010, 09:20:30 PM
Are the dems so desperate? They are trying to force the issue in hopes they get some more dems in congress/senate, what if they don't?
From the pro-article I linked above
QuoteRepublicans who are afraid that Puerto Rico might send only Democrats to Congress might check their concerns with the island's governor, Luis Fortuño, a speaker at the 2008 GOP convention. Fortuño is a not only a Reagan conservative who has been elected island-wide twice in the last five years — in 2008, he was elected by 225,000 votes, the biggest margin of electoral victory in 44 years. While mainland Republicans struggled in '08, the GOP bucked the tide in Puerto Rico, with victories that included the governor's seat, president of the Senate, speaker of the House, Senate majority leader, mayor of San Juan, and a majority of mayors in the 78 municipalities, as well as the majority of state legislators throughout the island. These results are no surprise. Polls tell us that 78 percent of the island's residents are pro-life; 86 percent say prayer should be allowed in schools; 75 percent say displaying the Ten Commandments on government property should be allowed; a majority supports vouchers for private schools. An overwhelming majority of Puerto Rican citizens embrace socially conservative values.
They're socially conservative and fiscally liberal, just like most Republicans.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 29, 2010, 08:46:20 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 29, 2010, 08:44:51 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 29, 2010, 08:43:02 PM
What is "sovereignty in association with the US"?
Like a halfway measure between the current system and full independence.
How exactly does that work in practice? Like, Hong Kong? :lol:
Probably like Micronesia and those other islands- independent, but in a "Compact of Free Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_of_Free_Association)" with the US. In other words, we give them money and support, and they let us use them for military bases or whatever.
Republican values would echo well in a lot of Hispanic communities if they'd pick their battles on immigration more wisely. Obviously its an issue that needs to be addressed, but the shock n' awe method they've been using is going to solidify that entire voting bloc as a Democratic stronghold.
For shame, GOP. Only that corrupt party could send a mass of conservative, anti-gay, anti-abortion voters into the arms of the most liberal and shameful political party in the history of this nation.
Can't we put all the friendly Ricans in boats, nuke Puerto Rico and then sink the boats?
Quote from: Faeelin on April 29, 2010, 09:25:22 PM
I don't know what this even means. Why shouldn't Puerto Ricans get to vote on their future? We took em by force in 1898, kept em as a territory without statehood since then, and now people are worried they'll want to join us?
I thought it was the case that Puerto Ricans didn't want to become a state. As AR pointed out, the best situation for them is the current one.
If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities.
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 12:59:55 AM
If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities.
What exactly are you thinking?
"Los Estados Unidos Americanos"
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2010, 01:01:26 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 12:59:55 AM
If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities.
What exactly are you thinking?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2FTurtle.jpg&hash=465ab806527a8aa387fb5d5977fb1adefa8b7526)
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 12:59:55 AM
If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities.
New Mexico is already contemplating making Spanish an official language. I'm sure GOPtards will try to excise it from the Union, but change is a coming.
New Mexico = New Coke.
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 12:59:55 AM
If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities.
How?
Quote from: Monoriu on April 29, 2010, 08:43:02 PM
What is "sovereignty in association with the US"?
A colony, like now
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 01:21:23 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 12:59:55 AM
If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities.
How?
What Fate says.
It becoming an offical language and all that.
It replacing English is only for the far fetched xenophobic rantings of right wing nutters (....probally....kinda....) but co-equal I could see and having a Spanish speaking state would help.
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 01:57:30 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 01:21:23 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 12:59:55 AM
If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities.
How?
What Fate says.
It becoming an offical language and all that.
It replacing English is only for the far fetched xenophobic rantings of right wing nutters (....probally....kinda....) but co-equal I could see and having a Spanish speaking state would help.
Not really, the situation in Puerto Rico in no way will effect the actual lives of people on the mainland. They will be surrounded by English and will have to learn it in order to succeed. Making Puerto Rico a state will not make migrants on the mainland any more likely to hang on to Spanish.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 02:11:48 AM
Not really, the situation in Puerto Rico in no way will effect the actual lives of people on the mainland. They will be surrounded by English and will have to learn it in order to succeed. Making Puerto Rico a state will not make migrants on the mainland any more likely to hang on to Spanish.
:unsure:
Nothing to do with what I said
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 02:24:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 02:11:48 AM
Not really, the situation in Puerto Rico in no way will effect the actual lives of people on the mainland. They will be surrounded by English and will have to learn it in order to succeed. Making Puerto Rico a state will not make migrants on the mainland any more likely to hang on to Spanish.
:unsure:
Nothing to do with what I said
You said
"If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities."
I said no and explained why I think so. In what way was it unrelated to your statement?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 02:27:10 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 02:24:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 02:11:48 AM
Not really, the situation in Puerto Rico in no way will effect the actual lives of people on the mainland. They will be surrounded by English and will have to learn it in order to succeed. Making Puerto Rico a state will not make migrants on the mainland any more likely to hang on to Spanish.
:unsure:
Nothing to do with what I said
You said
"If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities."
I said no and explained why I think so. In what way was it unrelated to your statement?
You were on about individual people chosing to speak Spanish or English. Which yeah, I don't see how Puerto Rico would change much- though that they have to learn English due to being surrounded by it...not from what I hear in many areas
I was on about states giving more official recognition to those who do speak Spanish and Spanish becoming a official language.
Having a state with Spanish as its first language will help those who want Spanish as a extra second language in their state as its already established that it won't lead to the collapse of civilization, things will work in coordination with the rest of the country, etc...
Quote from: Tamas on April 30, 2010, 01:24:59 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 29, 2010, 08:43:02 PM
What is "sovereignty in association with the US"?
A colony, like now
Puerto Ricans have colonized the mainland.
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 02:30:00 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 02:27:10 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 02:24:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 02:11:48 AM
Not really, the situation in Puerto Rico in no way will effect the actual lives of people on the mainland. They will be surrounded by English and will have to learn it in order to succeed. Making Puerto Rico a state will not make migrants on the mainland any more likely to hang on to Spanish.
:unsure:
Nothing to do with what I said
You said
"If it becomes a state I wonder if it could set a prescdent for more Spanish speaking in the existing states with large Hispanic minorities."
I said no and explained why I think so. In what way was it unrelated to your statement?
You were on about individual people chosing to speak Spanish or English. Which yeah, I don't see how Puerto Rico would change much- though that they have to learn English due to being surrounded by it...not from what I hear in many areas
I was on about states giving more official recognition to those who do speak Spanish and Spanish becoming a official language.
Having a state with Spanish as its first language will help those who want Spanish as a extra second language in their state as its already established that it won't lead to the collapse of civilization, things will work in coordination with the rest of the country, etc...
"more spanish speaking" is written so that it refers to individuals.
You heard wrong, every Puerto Rican born in the states that I know speaks English well enough to function in society.
I hardly see how Puerto Rico's example is going to sway people in other mainland states. There are obvious historical differences and reasons for Spanish to be one of the official languages of Puerto Rico and they're not transferable.
Today I passed some lasagna and cake.
What about giving it back to Spain?
Quote from: Palisadoes on April 30, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
What about giving it back to Spain?
They are welcome to it.
Quote from: Palisadoes on April 30, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
What about giving it back to Spain?
Doesn't seem like a good deal, I think we'll pass. :P
Quote from: Palisadoes on April 30, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
What about giving it back to Spain?
:mad:
Sink me the ship, Master Gunner. Sink her, split her in twain!
Fall into the hands of God, not into the hands of Spain.
Quote from: The Brain on April 29, 2010, 11:39:20 PM
Can't we put all the friendly Ricans in boats, nuke Puerto Rico and then sink the boats?
:yes: The best thing about this plan is that it would require no boats!
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 05:51:58 AM
Quote from: Palisadoes on April 30, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
What about giving it back to Spain?
Doesn't seem like a good deal, I think we'll pass. :P
Come on, Larchie, you know we will need a suitable base to reconquer Cuba when Fidel buys the farm. Besides Puerto Rico doesn't look so bad, its GNP per capita is roughly equivalent to Poland's or Hungary's... oops!
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 05:51:58 AM
Quote from: Palisadoes on April 30, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
What about giving it back to Spain?
Doesn't seem like a good deal, I think we'll pass. :P
It would raise the collective intelligence of the US and Spain.
Quote from: Alatriste on April 30, 2010, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 05:51:58 AM
Quote from: Palisadoes on April 30, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
What about giving it back to Spain?
Doesn't seem like a good deal, I think we'll pass. :P
Come on, Larchie, you know we will need a suitable base to reconquer Cuba when Fidel buys the farm. Besides Puerto Rico doesn't look so bad, its GNP per capita is roughly equivalent to Poland's or Hungary's... oops!
I wouldn't take Poland or Hungary either. Only their women. :perv:
Quote from: Alatriste on April 30, 2010, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 05:51:58 AM
Quote from: Palisadoes on April 30, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
What about giving it back to Spain?
Doesn't seem like a good deal, I think we'll pass. :P
Come on, Larchie, you know we will need a suitable base to reconquer Cuba when Fidel buys the farm. Besides Puerto Rico doesn't look so bad, its GNP per capita is roughly equivalent to Poland's or Hungary's... oops!
Nominal GDP per capita is between the 33rd and 32nd country according to the CIA factbook and is higher than South Korea. That's a first world country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita#cite_note-2
Still trails Aruba.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 06:53:03 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on April 30, 2010, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 05:51:58 AM
Quote from: Palisadoes on April 30, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
What about giving it back to Spain?
Doesn't seem like a good deal, I think we'll pass. :P
Come on, Larchie, you know we will need a suitable base to reconquer Cuba when Fidel buys the farm. Besides Puerto Rico doesn't look so bad, its GNP per capita is roughly equivalent to Poland's or Hungary's... oops!
Nominal GDP per capita is between the 33rd and 32nd country according to the CIA factbook and is higher than South Korea. That's a first world country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita#cite_note-2
Nobody denies it, but it's still well below the Spanish average. ;) It would be in the bottom end of regions in Spain, only ahead of the poorer ones.
Are the poor parts of Spain near Portugal?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 30, 2010, 07:01:13 AM
Are the poor parts of Spain near Portugal?
Yup, the poorest parts of Spain, Andalucía and Extremadura, both border Portugal. Galicia and Castilla y León, the other two regions that border Portugal, are not that well off either.
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 07:07:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 30, 2010, 07:01:13 AM
Are the poor parts of Spain near Portugal?
Yup, the poorest parts of Spain, Andalucía and Extremadura, both border Portugal. Galicia and Castilla y León, the other two regions that border Portugal, are not that well off either.
:( Portuguese rape economy
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 29, 2010, 07:37:22 PM
Although now that I think about it "sovereignty in association with the United States" and "the current commonwealth relationship" is likely to split the anti-statehood vote enough to allow it to win. Though of course, given that last poll I saw Statehood would beat either option in a straight up fight.
The very fact they elected the progressive party signals to me they are ready to vote for statehood anyway.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 29, 2010, 08:43:02 PM
What is "sovereignty in association with the US"?
A non-option IMO.
Our territories need to either be made into or incorporated into States or let go. The territory designation is antiquated and left over from the frontier/colonial days and unless we plan on opening up places like Guam and Puetro Rico for settlement decisions have to be made about their future in the United States. They either need to be allowed to join or allowed to leave.
Portugal radiates FAIL. :weep:
Quote from: grumbler on April 30, 2010, 06:11:08 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 29, 2010, 11:39:20 PM
Can't we put all the friendly Ricans in boats, nuke Puerto Rico and then sink the boats?
:yes: The best thing about this plan is that it would require no boats!
Could we use Incan Torpedo Boats?
Quote from: Caliga on April 30, 2010, 08:09:20 AM
Portugal radiates FAIL. :weep:
So hopefully they will decide to become an independent crappy nation. Then Lettow will celebrate their freedom from Yankee imperialism.
It's shame he didn't take up my offer to send him to South Africa. Of course I would probably get in trouble for abetting terrorism or something.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 30, 2010, 06:56:52 AM
Still trails Aruba.
They're the Caribbean Superpower.
I don't agree with this -- the patricians should be allowed to vote as well.
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2010, 08:02:31 AM
The territory designation is antiquated and left over from the frontier/colonial days
:ultra:
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 09:56:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2010, 08:02:31 AM
The territory designation is antiquated and left over from the frontier/colonial days
:ultra:
Are you saying the Yukon is not a frontier area?
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 07:07:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 30, 2010, 07:01:13 AM
Are the poor parts of Spain near Portugal?
Yup, the poorest parts of Spain, Andalucía and Extremadura, both border Portugal. Galicia and Castilla y León, the other two regions that border Portugal, are not that well off either.
Did Andalucía's CoT stagnate?
My plan for Puerto Rico would be to convert the population into helots, and cull them every year.
The rest will service us, the equals of the republic.
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2010, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 09:56:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2010, 08:02:31 AM
The territory designation is antiquated and left over from the frontier/colonial days
:ultra:
Are you saying the Yukon is not a frontier area?
I'm saying that territories are not antiquated or left-overs.
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 11:15:17 AM
I'm saying that territories are not antiquated or left-overs.
I was only talking about the United States Beeb. The only area we have comparable to your territories is Alaska and it is already a state.
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2010, 11:39:25 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 11:15:17 AM
I'm saying that territories are not antiquated or left-overs.
I was only talking about the United States Beeb. The only area we have comparable to your territories is Alaska and it is already a state.
Don't try and talk me down from my feigned internet rage! :ultra:
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 11:40:33 AM
Don't try and talk me down from my feigned internet rage! :ultra:
Sorry :blush:
You know sometimes it is annoying having a serious opinion about something nobody else on the forum takes seriously :P
Heck this issue is so huge Glenn Beck went out of his way to make up a huge conspiracy about it.
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 11:40:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2010, 11:39:25 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 11:15:17 AM
I'm saying that territories are not antiquated or left-overs.
I was only talking about the United States Beeb. The only area we have comparable to your territories is Alaska and it is already a state.
Don't try and talk me down from my feigned internet rage! :ultra:
Soothing image #254
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.golftailoronline.com%2FMerchant2%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2FHaggar%2520Cool%252018%2520Pleated%2520Golf%2520Pants%2520String%25203.jpg&hash=7adb818c9f01b12ac51a14ae09d73e592de60655)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 03:12:17 AM
"more spanish speaking" is written so that it refers to individuals.
You heard wrong, every Puerto Rican born in the states that I know speaks English well enough to function in society.
I hardly see how Puerto Rico's example is going to sway people in other mainland states. There are obvious historical differences and reasons for Spanish to be one of the official languages of Puerto Rico and they're not transferable.
Puerto Ricans aren't the only Spanish speakers. Don't they tend to live in the north east and generally pretty English states?
I was of course speaking of the southern states where they've lots of Spanish speakers of other origins.
The reason it could sway is it would rubbish the argument that having a state speaking a utterly different language would mess with the way the country works. Who gives a crap about the reasons for Puerto Rico being Spanish speaking, that it is is enough.
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
I was of course speaking of the southern states where they've lots of Spanish speakers of other origins.
The reason it could sway is it would rubbish the argument that having a state speaking a utterly different language would mess with the way the country works. Who gives a crap about the reasons for Puerto Rico being Spanish speaking, that it is is enough.
I'm not aware of that particular argument being put worth.
If Puerto Rico ever becomes a state, I think that the result in the long run would be that it eventually becomes a primarily English-speaking area. Actually, that may happen anyway, but statehood would speed up the process IMO.
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2010, 11:46:08 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 11:40:33 AM
Don't try and talk me down from my feigned internet rage! :ultra:
Sorry :blush:
You know sometimes it is annoying having a serious opinion about something nobody else on the forum takes seriously :P
Heck this issue is so huge Glenn Beck went out of his way to make up a huge conspiracy about it.
Okay, serious response:
Why does it have to be all or nothing? That seems to be your opinion - all these places must either 'join' the US, or they must go independent.
For starters that seems to run contrary to your opinion that the world has too many micro-states. And on that you're probably right - Guam would have a hard go of it as an independent nation, for example.
But many of these places have justified fears about wholely joining the USA. They have independent, unique cultures that they do not want to give up. As such they would rather share somewhat loose ties to the US, but maintain some distance as well.
Why does it have to be all or nothing? I can't see anything wrong with 'commonwealth' status.
Plus "Territory" is just a cool name for a region. :Canuck:
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 03:12:17 AM
"more spanish speaking" is written so that it refers to individuals.
You heard wrong, every Puerto Rican born in the states that I know speaks English well enough to function in society.
I hardly see how Puerto Rico's example is going to sway people in other mainland states. There are obvious historical differences and reasons for Spanish to be one of the official languages of Puerto Rico and they're not transferable.
Puerto Ricans aren't the only Spanish speakers. Don't they tend to live in the north east and generally pretty English states?
I was of course speaking of the southern states where they've lots of Spanish speakers of other origins.
The reason it could sway is it would rubbish the argument that having a state speaking a utterly different language would mess with the way the country works. Who gives a crap about the reasons for Puerto Rico being Spanish speaking, that it is is enough.
A lot of those southern states have already passed laws making English the official state language.
Also, 88% of 2nd generation Hispanics speak English well
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/644/english-language-usage-hispanics
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2010, 11:46:08 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 11:40:33 AM
Don't try and talk me down from my feigned internet rage! :ultra:
Sorry :blush:
You know sometimes it is annoying having a serious opinion about something nobody else on the forum takes seriously :P
Heck this issue is so huge Glenn Beck went out of his way to make up a huge conspiracy about it.
Okay, serious response:
Why does it have to be all or nothing? That seems to be your opinion - all these places must either 'join' the US, or they must go independent.
For starters that seems to run contrary to your opinion that the world has too many micro-states. And on that you're probably right - Guam would have a hard go of it as an independent nation, for example.
But many of these places have justified fears about wholely joining the USA. They have independent, unique cultures that they do not want to give up. As such they would rather share somewhat loose ties to the US, but maintain some distance as well.
Why does it have to be all or nothing? I can't see anything wrong with 'commonwealth' status.
Plus "Territory" is just a cool name for a region. :Canuck:
Because of taxes--Puerto Rico has more people than most states, why shouldn't it be subject to the same taxes as everyone else? If it wasn't for republicans being scared of a new state locked into the democratic party and nativists scared of the spanish language, I think there would be an overwhelming stateside push for Puerto Rico to choose statehood or independence.
I can't think of how Puerto Rico can protect its culture now that it couldn't with statehood.
Anyways, this hasn't become a big story yet because the Senate is unlikely to pass this. But it was unlikely that the House would either, and I was quite surprised to hear it, so it's possible. If the Senate does pass it, how big an issue do you think this will become in the country and how will it play out?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
A lot of those southern states have already passed laws making English the official state language.
So because they've a law saying English is the official language they can't do another law to make Spanish also official?
Puerto Rican statehood would really be a huge kick in the nuts to the English only movement which could allow their opponents on the mainland to change things.
QuoteAlso, 88% of 2nd generation Hispanics speak English well
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/644/english-language-usage-hispanics
And?
The Welsh pretty much all speak English. In many communities they still go about their daily buisness in Welsh. Languages aren't mutually exclusive.
Most 2nd generation Hispanics prefer to do their dealings in English.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2010, 06:53:03 AM
Nominal GDP per capita is between the 33rd and 32nd country according to the CIA factbook and is higher than South Korea. That's a first world country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita#cite_note-2
Not really.
Besides, they speak Spanish there. No Spanish-speaking country is first-world.
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 07:07:18 AM
Yup, the poorest parts of Spain, Andalucía and Extremadura, both border Portugal. Galicia and Castilla y León, the other two regions that border Portugal, are not that well off either.
You know that our poorer regions (besides Azores) also border Spain right? :lol:
BTW, what about Ceuta? They don't seem to be that well off? Or since they are so small, they get everything paid by the mainland?
Quote from: Barrister on April 30, 2010, 05:19:21 PM
Plus "Territory" is just a cool name for a region. :Canuck:
For BB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4E0UtxI7b0
Quote from: Jaron on May 01, 2010, 07:02:06 AM
Most 2nd generation Hispanics prefer to do their dealings in English.
The point he was disagreeing with though was that you can get by perfectly well in Spanish in the south.
I've no first hand experience myself but a Spanish friend has just returned from the US and he tells me this is so.
And I can't help but think a part of the reason this is so is that English is the official languge whilst Spanish is the nasty low class immigrant speak.
Quote from: Tyr on May 01, 2010, 01:28:43 PM
The point he was disagreeing with though was that you can get by perfectly well in Spanish in the south.
I've no first hand experience myself but a Spanish friend has just returned from the US and he tells me this is so.
I could see the south west. Not the south.
QuoteAnd I can't help but think a part of the reason this is so is that English is the official languge whilst Spanish is the nasty low class immigrant speak.
It's the road to higher paying jobs.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2010, 01:53:30 PM
I could see the south west. Not the south.
You're right.
I misphrased, slipped my mind for a second 'the south' means a certain area in the US rather than just a vague directioned part of the country.
Quote from: Tyr on May 01, 2010, 01:28:43 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 01, 2010, 07:02:06 AM
Most 2nd generation Hispanics prefer to do their dealings in English.
The point he was disagreeing with though was that you can get by perfectly well in Spanish in the south.
I've no first hand experience myself but a Spanish friend has just returned from the US and he tells me this is so.
And I can't help but think a part of the reason this is so is that English is the official languge whilst Spanish is the nasty low class immigrant speak.
Half the second generation Hispanics I know just don't prefer to speak in English, they have to speak in English because their Spanish speaking ability ranges from not fluent to nonexistent. The power of popular culture and modern media is overwhelming and has vastly accelerated the process of assimilation. 77% of Latino immigrants can't speak English fluently but 88% of the children can. That's a huge disparity between generations.
Quote from: clandestino on May 01, 2010, 08:40:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2010, 07:07:18 AM
Yup, the poorest parts of Spain, Andalucía and Extremadura, both border Portugal. Galicia and Castilla y León, the other two regions that border Portugal, are not that well off either.
You know that our poorer regions (besides Azores) also border Spain right? :lol:
BTW, what about Ceuta? They don't seem to be that well off? Or since they are so small, they get everything paid by the mainland?
Murcia or Castilla la Mancha aren't precisely Switzerland either, and they don't border Portugal. :P
And don't try to hide the vast riches of Tras-Os-Montes. <_< :P
Mexican immigrant comes to America, can't speak English, named Jose Martinez.
Son speaks mostly English, named Jose (Joe) Martinez.
Grandson speaks no Spanish, named Jeff Martin. You know, the guy down the street. Married to Debbie - has two kids, Cadence and Sierra.