Languish.org

QuoteSouth Korean navy ship 'sinking'

A South Korean navy ship with about 100 personnel on board is sinking off the west coast near North Korea, possibly due to a torpedo attack, reports say.

The ship was sinking near Baengnyeong island, Yonhap news agency quoted navy officials as saying.

It also said the South Korean ship had fired shots toward an unidentified ship in the North. The incident has not been confirmed by government officials.

A rescue operation was said to be under way, amid fears for the sailors.

The 1,500-tonne ship began sinking about 2130 local time (1230 GMT).

The South Korean government has convened an emergency meeting, according to the officials.

The South Korean ministry of defence has not confirmed the reports of North Korean involvement.

The disputed sea boundary is a source of continuing tension, with incidents in January and February.

In January, North Korea fired artillery into the sea near the disputed maritime border, as part of a "military drill". South Korea returned fire, but no injuries were reported.

The following month, North Korea declared four areas near the sea border to be naval firing zones, according to the South Korean military, and deployed multiple rocket launchers close to the frontier.

Deadly naval clashes happened 1999, 2002 and the latest in November 2009 when a fire fight left a North Korean patrol boat in flames and one dead.

The South Korean vessel alleged that the North Korean vessel had crossed the disputed sea border - a charge North Korea denied.

South Korea recognises the Northern Limit Line, drawn unilaterally by the US-led United Nations Command to demarcate the sea border at the end of the 1950-53 Korean War. The line has never been accepted by North Korea.

Quote from: Cecil on March 26, 2010, 10:58:42 AM
Well played Brazen.

I was 100% sure this thread was started by timmy until I I went into the thread the second time.  :)

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 26, 2010, 10:56:16 AM
Well, shit.

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on March 26, 2010, 11:41:48 AM
I can't remember, where in Korea are you?  Are you going to be killed in the initial artillery bombardment of Seoul or would it take a massive zerg rush to reach you?

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on March 26, 2010, 11:41:48 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 26, 2010, 10:56:16 AM
Well, shit.

I can't remember, where in Korea are you?  Are you going to be killed in the initial artillery bombardment of Seoul or would it take a massive zerg rush to reach you?

Quote from: Caliga on March 26, 2010, 12:21:19 PM
It would be cool if Tim got captured and taken to the North to be a tutor to Kim Jong Il's nephews or something. :)

Some years later I would write a Broadway musical about it called The Tim And I.  :cool:

Quote from: Caliga on March 26, 2010, 12:21:19 PM
It would be cool if Tim got captured and taken to the North to be a tutor to Kim Jong Il's nephews or something. :)

Some years later I would write a Broadway musical about it called The Tim And I.  :cool:

Quote from: Caliga on March 26, 2010, 12:21:19 PM
It would be cool if Tim got captured and taken to the North to be a tutor to Kim Jong Il's nephews or something. :)

Some years later I would write a Broadway musical about it called The Tim And I.  :cool:

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 26, 2010, 11:43:17 AM
Is it : war?

Quote from: Syt on March 26, 2010, 12:31:41 PM
Kim'n'Tim is a better title for marketing.

Quote from: Lettow77 on March 26, 2010, 01:18:22 PM
North Korea is a menace that has to be dealt with. I wish Japan would assume a more active role in suppressign them.

Quote from: Caliga on March 26, 2010, 01:05:03 PM

Quote from: Syt on March 26, 2010, 12:31:41 PM
Kim'n'Tim is a better title for marketing.

You know, I actually meant to write The Kim and I... weird how I ended up typing "The Tim and I" instead.  But they both kinda work.

Would Tim be played by: Jodie Foster.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 26, 2010, 12:11:54 PM

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on March 26, 2010, 11:41:48 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 26, 2010, 10:56:16 AM
Well, shit.

I can't remember, where in Korea are you?  Are you going to be killed in the initial artillery bombardment of Seoul or would it take a massive zerg rush to reach you?

I'm 40 minutes westsouthwest of Suwon by bus, close to the
coast. So, south of Seoul by a decent bit.
It would take a while for them to get here.

...

Quote from: Josephus on March 26, 2010, 12:42:57 PM
Come on. Since when does the sinking of a ship precipitate full US involvement in a war? Sheesh.




:huh:

Quote from: dps on March 26, 2010, 08:29:22 PM
1917  ;)

Quote from: dps on March 26, 2010, 08:29:22 PM

Quote from: Josephus on March 26, 2010, 12:42:57 PM
Come on. Since when does the sinking of a ship precipitate full US involvement in a war? Sheesh.




:huh:

1898 & 1917  ;)

Quote from: Strix on March 26, 2010, 11:58:48 AM
Has 99 Red Balloons gone by?

Quote from: Razgovory on March 27, 2010, 01:58:37 AM
Meh this shit happens all the time.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 27, 2010, 03:33:47 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on March 27, 2010, 01:58:37 AM
Meh this shit happens all the time.

No it doesn't.

Quote from: Razgovory on March 27, 2010, 04:17:42 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 27, 2010, 03:33:47 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on March 27, 2010, 01:58:37 AM
Meh this shit happens all the time.

No it doesn't.

It happened 8 years ago.  Three years before that the South sank two Northern ships.  Last year the South shot up a Northern ship.

Quote from: viper37 on March 26, 2010, 12:10:26 PM

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on March 26, 2010, 11:41:48 AM
I can't remember, where in Korea are you?  Are you going to be killed in the initial artillery bombardment of Seoul or would it take a massive zerg rush to reach you?

he may not live in Korea, but if there is war between the North and South, the US will get involved, and NK has nuclear weapons.  Even without nuclear weapons, in a war with conventional weapons the US would still intervene, and there would still be US troops there, and if the US gets involved there, other countries are going to get involved, and maybe even China would send 'volunteers' like the last time.

The only difference is there would be no Russian planes this time.

Quote from: Caliga on March 26, 2010, 01:05:03 PM
Would Tim be played by: Jodie Foster.

Quote from: dps on March 26, 2010, 08:29:22 PM

Quote from: Josephus on March 26, 2010, 12:42:57 PM
Come on. Since when does the sinking of a ship precipitate full US involvement in a war? Sheesh.




:huh:

1898 & 1917  ;)

Quote
By Jung Sung-ki
Staff Reporter

Defense Minister Kim Tae-young cautiously raised the possibility Monday that the ill-fated frigate Cheonan may have hit a mine laid by North Korea.

His remark drew attention as Cheong Wa Dae and defense officials had previously sought to downplay the North's possible involvement in the deadly ship wreck Friday in which 46 South Korean sailors remain "missing in action."

Answering questions at the National Assembly on the cause of the incident, Kim said, "North Korean mines may have floated into our territorial waters."

However, he refused to comment on whether the mines had been placed by the North intentionally or had drifted into South Korean waters.

Earlier in the day, rescue workers confirmed the location of the stern of the downed ship, which was split in two after an unexplained explosion, the defense ministry said.

About 100 South Korean and U.S. divers began operations and succeeded in reaching the stern, which was about 50 meters from where the ship went down, and about 40 meters underwater, ministry spokesman Won Tae-jae told reporters.

The divers tied a loop of rope around its deck, Won said.

They tapped on the outside of the hull but failed to hear any sound inside, he said.

Kim ruled out the possibility of a blast caused by South Korean mines, and also played down the possibility of a torpedo attack.

North Korea bought about 4,000 sea mines from the former Soviet Union during the 1950-53 Korean War and was believed to have laid about 3,000 of them both in eastern and western waters off the Korean Peninsula, Kim noted.

"Almost all mines were removed, but not 100 percent," he said. "A North Korean mine was found in South Korean waters in 1984 and another was removed in 1995."

Both Koreas deployed floating and submerged mines near the Northern Limit Line (NLL), the de facto sea border, after the Korean War ended in a truce, not a peace treaty.

Military experts said an acoustic mine might have been triggered by the Cheonan's propellers. Acoustic mines are activated by the noise of a passing ship's screws.

The location of the wreckage came two days after search-and-rescue (SAR) efforts began near the western sea border with North Korea.

Most of the 46 missing sailors are believed to have been in the stern when the 1,200-ton ship was destroyed and sank 1.8 kilometers southwest of Baengnyeong Island near the NLL.

A Navy salvage team confirmed the location of the bow of the vessel, which was carrying crew of 104, Sunday. Fifty-eight sailors, including the captain, were rescued from one of the country's worst sea disasters.

It is possible that some missing sailors could have survived in air-pockets inside the ship, although the water in the West Sea is about 4 degrees Celsius.

"We are expecting to see some positive results as the rest of the body of the ship has been found," Rear Adm. Lee Ki-shik at the Joint Chiefs of Staff told reporters. "We'll be sending down underwater cameras and hope that all sailors are still alive."

President Lee Myung-bak called for speeding up the rescue operation.

"We should use all the manpower and equipment available to rescue the sailors as fast as possible," Lee was quoted by his spokeswoman Kim Eun-hye as saying, after receiving an emergency briefing from his top aides.

The President stressed rescuers "should not give up hope for more survivors."

Minister Kim said, however, he believes the possibility of survivors is low given the amount of time that has passed since the accident occurred.

Full-fledged rescue operations by civilian divers as well as South Korean and U.S. salvage specialists are underway, the minister said.

About 20 South Korean vessels, including the 3,000-ton Gwangyang rescue ship and two minesweepers, have been conducting efforts to reach possible survivors.

The Japan-based U.S. 7th Fleet dispatched a 3,000-ton rescue ship to the site, and 15 U.S. divers are supporting the operation, Kim said.

The cause of the explosion on the ship remains unclear.

Several possibilities have been suggested: an accidental onboard explosion, or a blast caused by hitting rocks or sea mines planted either by North or South Korea.

With regard to North Korean involvement, U.S. Forces Korea Commander Gen. Walter Sharp also said in a statement that his command didn't detect any indication that this was the case.

gallantjung@koreatimes.co.kr

QuoteNorth Korea may also have sent a mine floating south with the current, he said.

"North Korea may have intentionally floated underwater mines to inflict damage on us," Kim told lawmakers.

QuoteN.Korea 'Runs Naval Suicide Squads'

Former North Korean soldiers who defected to South Korea on Monday claimed "underwater suicide squads" may have been responsible for the mysterious sinking of a South Korean naval vessel on Friday.

They are similar to the underwater demolition teams operated by the South Korean Navy, the defectors claimed. Recruited from the cream among North Korea's naval commandos, members of the teams are treated well but undergo brutal training.

According to one high-ranking North Korean defector, the North formed suicide attack squads in each branch of the military after the country's leader Kim Jong-il said during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 that no military in the world can defeat an army that can carry out suicide bombings.

The suicide attack squads are known as the "invincibles" in the Air Force, "bombs" in the Army and "human torpedoes" in the Navy. North Korea is said to place special emphasis on the naval squads. It operates a brigade of suicide attack squads in its East Sea and West Sea fleets and they are considered key to overcoming North Korea's inferior conventional military power.

One former North Korean sailor who defected to South Korea said the suicide squads have many semi-submersible vessels that can carry two bombers and either two torpedoes or two floating mines. In areas like the West Sea where the underwater current is fast, the suicide bombers train with mines rather than torpedoes.

One defector who served in North Korea's intelligence service, said, "Following the first naval battle in 1999, North Korea realized that it cannot defeat the South Korean Navy by conventional means and began studying unconventional methods." The best method is said to be the use of "acoustic mines" carried by small, semi-submersibles that travel at speeds of less than 2 km/h. The craft could be detected by South Korean sonar if they travel any faster. If the underwater squads returned after placing the mines on the hull of a ship, it would be very difficult to find evidence of the attack.

Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2010, 05:33:37 AM

Quote from: Caliga on March 26, 2010, 01:05:03 PM
Would Tim be played by: Jodie Foster.

Isn't she too butch?

Quote from: Valmy on March 30, 2010, 09:23:40 AM
So when the supposedly great rising power of China going to do anything about this?  Some world power.

QuoteSuspicion of N.Korean Hand in Sinking Mounts

Military insiders believe there is mounting evidence that the Navy corvette Cheonan was hit by a North Korean torpedo before it broke in two and sank in waters near the de-facto inter-Korean border. But the Defense Ministry and military authorities insist on the importance of establishing the exact cause of the incident before any conclusions are announced.

A senior military officer on Thursday said, "There is a 60 to 70 percent chance that the ship was hit" by a North Korean torpedo. But he added the question remains whether any evidence was left behind.

He based his speculation on indications that the ship was sunk by an external explosion and that a torpedo was in his view a more likely cause than an old mine from the days of the Korean War, a possibility that has also been floated.

When he visited Baeknyeong Island near the scene of accident on Tuesday, President Lee Myung-bak asked Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Kim Sung-chan whether there would be identifiable traces left behind in a mine explosion, and Kim said it is hard to tell but there is also the possibility of a torpedo attack. Kim added it is fairly certain that the ship's ammunition storage did not blow up.

At a recent session of the National Assembly Defense Committee, Defense Minister Kim Tae-young said North Korea has semi-submersibles that can carry two torpedoes and can fire them from a certain distance."

Right after the accident, the Second Navy Fleet Command elevated the maritime alert to the highest level, Grade A, and sent the Navy vessel Sokcho near the Northern Limit Line, the de-facto maritime border.

When an unidentified object appeared on the radar screen around 10:55 p.m. on March 26, the Sokcho believed it to be a North Korean semi-submersible and fired about 130 shells from 76 mm guns.

But other experts say that the North has no reason to launch such a reckless provocation with the approach of its leader Kim Jong-il's imminent visit to China and the resumption of the six-party nuclear talks.

But a retired chief of naval operations said, "In 2002 when the World Cup reached its climax, the North unexpectedly provoked the second battle of Yeonpyeong in the West Sea. The North has done many things that are inexplicable by common sense."

QuoteSouth Korea restraint after ship sinking adds to clamor for government action

Amid speculation that North Korea played a role, Seoul has warned against premature conclusions. Others say even if the North was involved, the South isn't ready to risk war by challenging it.

April 13, 2010|By John M. Glionna

Reporting from Seoul — No one knows what sank a South Korean naval patrol boat in the middle of the night last month, but that hasn't prevented a growing public clamor demanding that President Lee Myung-bak challenge the North Korean regime over the disaster.

The 1,200-ton Cheonan went down March 26 near the disputed sea border with North Korea, split in half by a mysterious blast. Of the 46 missing crewmen, the bodies of only two have been recovered.

With speculation rampant that a North Korean torpedo sank the Cheonan, critics say the lack of response makes the government appear weak in the face of obvious hostilities by the North.

In recent days, newspaper articles and op-ed pieces have steadily increased pressure on Lee's administration to demand answers from the government of Kim Jong Il.

Adding to public suspicion that overcautious officials are trying to hide something, the South Korean government has sent conflicting messages on the sinking.

Lee has asked for the public's patience, warning against "premature conclusions" as the military prepares for salvage efforts to raise the wreckage from the sea floor. But Defense Minister Kim Tae-young has said he believes a torpedo could have hit the ship and speculated that "North Korea may have intentionally floated underwater mines to inflict harm on us."

Some observers say officials have avoided pointing a finger at the North for good reason: To do so would call for a decisive military response that the South is not prepared to carry out.

Analysts say South Korea risks provoking a war that would devastate its economy, scare off foreign investors and place Seoul, the capital, under threat from North Korea's arsenal of short-range missiles.

"The South Korean government knows exactly what it can do about this situation, and that is nothing. It cannot start a war," said Andrei Lankov, a history professor at Kookmin University in Seoul.

Others say a rash act by Seoul would mirror the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, which was preceded by faulty assumptions that President Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction.

Conjecture on the Internet and elsewhere has pointed to the possibility of a boiler explosion aboard the Cheonan or that the ship might have struck a mine left over from the 1950-53 Korean War.

And what if evidence does point to a North Korean torpedo attack?

"What would they get by attacking North Korean military installations?" Lankov said. "The satisfaction would be short-lived because the voters calling for revenge would soon blame the government over any fallout for its actions."

john.glionna@latimes.com

Ju-min Park of The Times' Seoul Bureau contributed to this report.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 01, 2010, 10:13:07 PM
HMB what do you know about this paper? It seems rather sensationalist and wikipedia says it's rightwing. Do you know how reliable it's supposed to be?

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/04/02/2010040200382.html

QuoteSuspicion of N.Korean Hand in Sinking Mounts

Military insiders believe there is mounting evidence that the Navy corvette Cheonan was hit by a North Korean torpedo before it broke in two and sank in waters near the de-facto inter-Korean border. But the Defense Ministry and military authorities insist on the importance of establishing the exact cause of the incident before any conclusions are announced.

A senior military officer on Thursday said, "There is a 60 to 70 percent chance that the ship was hit" by a North Korean torpedo. But he added the question remains whether any evidence was left behind.

He based his speculation on indications that the ship was sunk by an external explosion and that a torpedo was in his view a more likely cause than an old mine from the days of the Korean War, a possibility that has also been floated.

When he visited Baeknyeong Island near the scene of accident on Tuesday, President Lee Myung-bak asked Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Kim Sung-chan whether there would be identifiable traces left behind in a mine explosion, and Kim said it is hard to tell but there is also the possibility of a torpedo attack. Kim added it is fairly certain that the ship's ammunition storage did not blow up.

At a recent session of the National Assembly Defense Committee, Defense Minister Kim Tae-young said North Korea has semi-submersibles that can carry two torpedoes and can fire them from a certain distance."

Right after the accident, the Second Navy Fleet Command elevated the maritime alert to the highest level, Grade A, and sent the Navy vessel Sokcho near the Northern Limit Line, the de-facto maritime border.

When an unidentified object appeared on the radar screen around 10:55 p.m. on March 26, the Sokcho believed it to be a North Korean semi-submersible and fired about 130 shells from 76 mm guns.

But other experts say that the North has no reason to launch such a reckless provocation with the approach of its leader Kim Jong-il's imminent visit to China and the resumption of the six-party nuclear talks.

But a retired chief of naval operations said, "In 2002 when the World Cup reached its climax, the North unexpectedly provoked the second battle of Yeonpyeong in the West Sea. The North has done many things that are inexplicable by common sense."

QuoteCertain signs of damage suggest powerful blast from outside ship

Quote
A military source said there was "no significant damage" to the part of the stern where the ammunition storage is located.

QuoteSKorea says external explosion likely sank ship

By KWANG-TAE KIM (AP) – 1 hour ago

SEOUL, South Korea — An external explosion most likely sank a South Korean navy ship that split apart three weeks ago, an investigator said Friday, amid concerns about possible North Korea involvement in the disaster.

The 1,200-ton Cheonan split into two pieces after exploding March 26 during a routine patrol near the tense maritime border with North Korea. Fifty-eight crew members were rescued, but 46 were missing for weeks.

There has been some suspicion but no confirmation of North Korean involvement in the sinking. The disputed western sea border has in the past been the scene of three bloody inter-Korean naval battles. South Korean officials have said they will look into all possibilities, including that the ship might have been struck by a North Korean torpedo or a mine left over from the 1950-53 Korean War.

North Korean officials have reportedly denied their country's involvement in the blast.

The salvage operation began Thursday, with officials retrieving 38 bodies so far. Eight other remain unaccounted for, according to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

A team of 38 investigators, including U.S. navy officials, conducted a preliminary investigation of the ship's stern after lifting it out of the water.

"There is a high possibility of an external explosion rather than an internal explosion," chief investigator Yoon Duk-yong told reporters Friday. He said further analysis is needed to determine the exact cause of the blast, after salvaging the ship's other wreckage.

The sinking was one of South Korea's worst naval disasters. In 1974, a ship sank off the southeast coast in stormy weather, killing 159 sailors and coast guard personnel. In 1967, 39 sailors were killed by North Korean artillery.

The Associated Press

QuoteBubble Jet from Torpedo 'Likely' Cause of Shipwreck

After an initial examination of the stern of the Navy corvette Cheonan on Thursday, the military tentatively concluded that the corvette had not been hit directly by a torpedo but broke in two due to a bubble jet created by an underwater explosion. The stern was raised 20 days after the corvette sank in the West Sea on March 26.

The military also speculates that a torpedo attack was a much more likely cause of the explosion than a mine.

"In an initial examination of the Cheonan's stern, South Korean and U.S. investigators found no traces showing that the hull had been hit directly by a torpedo," a senior source at the Defense Ministry said. "Instead, they found traces proving that a powerful explosion caused possibly by a torpedo had occurred underwater. The explosion created a bubble jet that eventually generated an enormous shock wave and caused the ship to break in two."
The severed stern of the sunken Navy corvette Cheonan is hoisted onto a barge on Thursday. The severed stern of the sunken Navy corvette Cheonan is hoisted onto a barge on Thursday.

If a torpedo hits directly, it normally blasts a big hole in the ship.

The investigators are carefully examining the stern, believing that the underwater explosion occurred not below midship but below the center-left.

The metal plate on the stern's floor was bent upward and the stern was torn obliquely, about 6 m further on the portside from the aft of the ship than on the starboard. The portside deck was pushed up in an inverted-V shape, showing that a powerful explosion occurred below and sent a shockwave upward.

The civilian-military investigation team consists of 26 military officers, 10 civilians, and two American experts.
englishnews@chosun.com / Apr. 16, 2010 11:50 KST

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 14, 2010, 02:34:08 AM
[Hans]I rely on Blogs mostly[/Hans]

Quote
No less disappointing than the sinking of the ship was the way military leaders dealt with it, especially in the early stages. People were aghast at the news that it took no less than 49 minutes for the Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman to receive a report about the incident, and 52 minutes for the defense minister. The reason was even more shocking: Pressed on the delay, a JCS officer said he forgot to do so ``for a moment.''

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 10:27:26 AM
If true, wow. :pinch:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2010/04/137_64413.html

Quote
No less disappointing than the sinking of the ship was the way military leaders dealt with it, especially in the early stages. People were aghast at the news that it took no less than 49 minutes for the Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman to receive a report about the incident, and 52 minutes for the defense minister. The reason was even more shocking: Pressed on the delay, a JCS officer said he forgot to do so ``for a moment.''

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2010, 01:39:25 PM
He was probably waiting to finish his starcraft game.

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2010, 01:39:25 PM
He was probably waiting to finish his starcraft game.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 06:46:37 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2010, 01:39:25 PM
He was probably waiting to finish his starcraft game.

Maybe he was investigating the recent scandal where pro-gamers were rigging matches.

Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2010, 07:24:00 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 06:46:37 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2010, 01:39:25 PM
He was probably waiting to finish his starcraft game.

Maybe he was investigating the recent scandal where pro-gamers were rigging matches.

Why would anyone investigate that?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 07:28:14 PM

Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2010, 07:24:00 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 06:46:37 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2010, 01:39:25 PM
He was probably waiting to finish his starcraft game.

Maybe he was investigating the recent scandal where pro-gamers were rigging matches.

Why would anyone investigate that?

Presumably because there's prize money involved, plus the matches get shown on tv.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 07:28:14 PM

Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2010, 07:24:00 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 06:46:37 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2010, 01:39:25 PM
He was probably waiting to finish his starcraft game.

Maybe he was investigating the recent scandal where pro-gamers were rigging matches.

Why would anyone investigate that?

Presumably because there's prize money involved, plus the matches get shown on tv.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 09:20:35 PM
If these sailors are proven to have been killed by North Korea, I wonder if their names will go up on the Korean War Memorial, after all, the war's never ended. :hmm:

Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2010, 09:37:55 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 09:20:35 PM
If these sailors are proven to have been killed by North Korea, I wonder if their names will go up on the Korean War Memorial, after all, the war's never ended. :hmm:

I would be surprised.  There's no advantage in that.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 09:39:06 PM

Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2010, 09:37:55 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 09:20:35 PM
If these sailors are proven to have been killed by North Korea, I wonder if their names will go up on the Korean War Memorial, after all, the war's never ended. :hmm:

I would be surprised.  There's no advantage in that.

Are there supposed to be advantages? :huh:

Quote
A lingering question is why the Cheonan's radar system was unable to detect a torpedo attack, if that was indeed the cause of the sinking. The Defense Ministry says the sonar aboard a South Korean warship like the Cheonan has a 70-percent chance of detecting submarines or semi-submersibles around a 2 km radius. But retired naval commanders say the chances are actually only 50 percent, so sonar officers could have been unaware of an approaching torpedo.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2010, 01:48:22 AM
I can see how they could miss a sub that's hiding, but not an active torpedo, don't they make a lot of noise? :huh:

Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2010, 07:54:06 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 07:28:14 PM

Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2010, 07:24:00 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2010, 06:46:37 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2010, 01:39:25 PM
He was probably waiting to finish his starcraft game.

Maybe he was investigating the recent scandal where pro-gamers were rigging matches.

Why would anyone investigate that?

Presumably because there's prize money involved, plus the matches get shown on tv.

So?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2010, 01:48:22 AM
I can see how they could miss a sub that's hiding, but not an active torpedo, don't they make a lot of noise? :huh:

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/04/19/2010041901342.html

Quote
A lingering question is why the Cheonan's radar system was unable to detect a torpedo attack, if that was indeed the cause of the sinking. The Defense Ministry says the sonar aboard a South Korean warship like the Cheonan has a 70-percent chance of detecting submarines or semi-submersibles around a 2 km radius. But retired naval commanders say the chances are actually only 50 percent, so sonar officers could have been unaware of an approaching torpedo.

Quote
North Korea 'plotted to kill high profile defector'
By John Sudworth
BBC News, Seoul

Hwang Jang Yop speaking in Washington DC, US (30 March 2010)
Mr Hwang defected after witnessing North Korea's famine

South Korea says it has uncovered a plot to assassinate a North Korean defector, the most senior official ever to have fled the authoritarian state.

Hwang Jang Yop, 87, was once a close confidant and mentor for North Korean leader Kim Jong-il.

He was the former chairman of the North Korean Supreme People's Assembly, but he defected to the South in 1997.

Seoul says two suspected North Koreans have been arrested, accused of being on a mission to kill him.

The alleged plot was uncovered when the two men, posing as defectors themselves, were questioned by South Korean officials during the debriefing sessions that await all North Korean refugees who make it to Seoul.

North Korea, it seems, has never forgotten Mr Hwang's betrayal.

Just two weeks ago its official government website threatened him with death and described him as a "traitor and human scum".

Mr Hwang says he decided to defect after witnessing the disastrous economic policies that led to the North Korean famine in the 1990s.

Many of the close family members that he left behind are reported to have been sent to labour camps.

Since arriving in the South he lives under heavy police protection and remains a harsh critic of Pyongyang.

He recently travelled to the United States to give a lecture, telling journalists that he has no regrets.

QuoteJust two weeks ago its official government website threatened him with death and described him as a "traitor and human scum".

Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2010, 02:58:28 AM
If Tim is going to post every time the North Koreans do something evil we'll need an entire new board.  I know he's fairly new to that country but the fuckers do this all the time.  The people of south just learn to deal with it.

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 21, 2010, 04:38:08 AM
Mostly things like military strikes on the submarine base. There's a very good article somewhere that points out that military strikes like this are effectively playing into the North's hands, and that instead the ROK should announce its intentions to hit the DPRK leadership, or just try to hit them. That's probably easier said than done.

I'll try to find the links later, I've got an night class now. :bleeding:

Quote
Sunday, April 18th, 2010 |
Averting a Second Korean War
by Joshua Stanton

It is still premature for any government to accuse North Korea of sinking the South Korean warship Cheonan before it reviews the detailed findings of the complete investigation.  For many South Koreans, however, the conclusion is already inescapable that North Korea did it. That's my hunch, too. Let me start by explaining the basis for my own speculation (please see these posts for additional citations):

- The extensive history of North Korean provocations that are as bad as this, or worse.

- The extensive history of North Korean provocations in these still-disputed waters,  the most recent of which was an unavenged defeat for the North Korean Navy.

- The recent rise in North-South tensions as President Lee refused to give in to Kim Jong Il's increasingly extortionate demands to bail out his politically and financially bankrupt regime.

- North Korea's recent unilateral renunciation of the 1953 Armistice that did not end, but did scale down, the surge of hostilities we call the Korean War.

- North Korea certainly had the capability to do this.  North Korea has a large inventory of semi-submersibles that operate well in shallow waters, are hard to see on radar, can move quickly on the surface, and can carry mines or torpedoes.  It has trained frogmen for suicide missions against the ROK Navy, and the South Korean Navy lost track of one of North Korea's 70 small submarines on the day of the attack.

- The elimination of other plausible theories. First, we can eliminate early theories that the Cheonan struck a rock or sank due to an internal explosion. Both the surviving crew members of the Cheonan and an investigator who has seen the severed hull (and thus the direction in which its metal was bent by explosion) have told reporters that the blast came from the outside. Could this have been friendly fire? I've seen nothing to rule that out, but nothing to suggest as much, either. It has been suggested that a sea mine left over from the Korean War could have been the cause. Sea mines can certainly remain destructive for many decades, but this area is a heavily trafficked sea lane and fishing ground. No other sea mines have been found in the area since 1984. It seems unlikely, though not impossible, that the next one would be struck by a ROK naval vessel at a time of increased tensions.

- A radar blip was seen heading North cross the Northern Limit Line at about 30-40 knots shortly after the explosion, and ROK Navy commanders on shore ordered the frigate Seokcho to open fire on it (or them). I continue to have some difficulty believing the early reports that this blip was a flock of birds moving with deliberate haste from where a South Korean warship had just sunk, through disputed waters, in the middle of the night, and at approximately the same speed that a North Korean semi-submersible moves (or perhaps two, thus explaining why the "blip" divided into two at one point). Maybe some ornithologist out there knows something on this subject that can enlighten us. The radar on the smaller ROK Navy vessels in the area at that time may not have been able to determine the blip's altitude. I don't completely rule out that hyper vigilant sailors could have shot at almost anything in those tense hours; but what are the odds that a flock of birds would have been moving with such deliberate speed in that time, place, direction, and manner?  I'll be interested in seeing the investigation's findings about this.

- Some less probative evidence: the idea that North Korea sank the Cheonan certainly doesn't seem implausible to those who've spent their lives under North Korean indoctrination. For what it's worth (probably not much) hearsay reports echoing widespread rumors claim that many North Koreans think their own "government" was behind the sinking. The manner of the Cheonan's sinking may or may not bear some resemblance to a popular North Korean movie. Also for what it's worth North Korea has finally gotten around to denying that it sank the Cheonan, but significantly, it didn't initially broadcast that denial. Now, North Korea is saying that it's being framed.

For now, President Lee is doing what he should be doing. He has restored enough message discipline in his own government to staunch the flow of ever-changing speculation about the cause. Nothing is concluded, and nothing is ruled out. He has reached out to his allies for investigative assistance, probably to inoculate the investigation's findings against predictable conspiracy theories by the leftist opposition that President Lee fabricated the evidence (conspiracy theories will circulate no matter what, and they'll probably wear a more anti-American tint if the U.S. Navy assists with the investigation, but helping is probably our obligation as an ally). Despite these misgivings, I'm glad to see the U.S. Navy is already at the scene.

I recently said that it might take a North Korean attack to finally break the spell of many South Koreans' inexplicable sympathy for Kim Jong Il's regime. It may be that that moment has already arrived. Editorials in major South Korean newspapers have begun to call for the unspeakable. Says one, "[N]o developed country tolerates provocation without punishing the offender. If Korea is a proper nation, it should, in principle, destroy the North Korean submarine base." This may not be so surprising coming from the staunchly conservative and nationalist Joongang Ilbo, but when the editors of The Korea Herald, arguably the most liberal of the mainstream South Korean papers, echo President Lee's still-hypothetical call for "resolute actions," it suggests a significant shift in the public mood.  The Herald recites a long series of North Korean provocations that have gone unanswered, argues that South Korea's past failures to respond have invited more attacks, and concludes:

    A military retaliation is a justified response to an unprovoked attack. It can be reserved when the adversary admits guilt and makes an apology, promises no recurrence and punishes the directly responsible individuals in cases where it acknowledges their involvement but denies the state's role. Whether or not North Korea will take any of these steps is anybody's guess.

    Among possible reactions, the government could bring the Cheonan case to the U.N. Security Council with proof that North Korea violated Article 2 Paragraph 4 of the U.N. Charter which asks all members to refrain "from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state." The attack on a ship engaged in a routine mission inside Southern territorial waters calls for punishment in the form of a U.N. sanction. The problem is that North Korea has already proved its resilience against U.N. sanctions over the past years of international pressures for its denuclearization.

    Here we are seeing a shortage of options to punish North Korea in the event its involvement has been confirmed. Still, we have to do something to manifest the territorial integrity and political independence of the Republic of Korea. That something should be resolute and effective to guarantee that there is no recurrence of the wanton attack.

It is gratifying to see such a broad sampling of South Korean opinion with a realistic view of Kim Jong Il's nature, but I would say in response that not everything that is justified is necessarily wise. I do not read either of these editorials as calling for all-out war but a limited one. Both assume that the war would start as a limited war and would end as a limited war. On balance, they're probably right. Kim Jong Il isn't about to risk triggering OPLAN 5027.  On the other hand, there are other risk factors that these editorial writers may not have thought through, but which President Lee and his advisors probably have.

The major premise of this still-hypothetical discussion is that Kim Jong Il and/or Kim Jong-Eun ordered the attack on the Cheonan, facially a grave miscalculation of the likely South Korean reaction. Kim Jong Il's personality has a high tolerance for risk, and a tendency to misjudge risk. What would Kim's next miscalculation be? A "limited" artillery barrage of Camp Casey, Uijongbu, or Seoul? Ordering terrorist attacks by commandos or sleeper agents? Delivering some dreadful weapon via North Korean's suspected tunnels under the DMZ, believing that his responsibility would be (as with the sinking of the Cheonan) plausibly deniable?

It is important for us to remember the cheapness of life between the Imjin and the Yalu. That is one reason why the question of human rights matters in our diplomatic and military thinking, and why the horrors of Camp 12 and Camp 22 (to name just two) can't be isolated from our calculation of the North Korean threat. The loss of life on either or both sides of the DMZ would not be punishment for Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Eun. A military humiliation might be, assuming that word of that humiliation spread widely within the North Korean armed forces, but despite the advanced erosion of North Korea's information blockade, the regime probably still has substantial control over what its armed forces hear and know. And in any event, there are plenty of other demoralizing things a determined South Korean government could tell the North Korean armed forces without risking war.

North Korean missiles

In contrast to the risk that a limited war would demoralize North Korea's armed forces and population, we must balance the risk that a limited war is actually the very outcome that Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Eun desperately need to extend their dynasty. Imagine yourself as Kim Jong Il today — your nation's long-moribund economy may have starved a million or two of your most expendable subjects, but by keeping the secret police well-fed, blaming the troubles on American sanctions, and characterizing the arrival of international food aid as the payoff for your masterful act of nuclear extortion, you muddled through. Despite widespread discontent, the loss of much control over the food supply, and even a rumored mutiny by a corps-level army unit, the system defied the predictions of foreign experts and held. Now you're under unprecedented pressure from international financial sanctions, and you've decided that international monitoring is too high a price to pay for the American food aid that helped you keep the army and your party minions fed. The "wavering" and "hostile" portions of your civilian population no longer depend on the state's rations and rely on capitalists markets to earn an independent living. Your recent desperate effort to confiscate the wealth of a nascent middle class and regain control over the food supply was a fiasco that caused more open public anger — and even some rioting — than at any time in North Korean history (there is even some empirical evidence to support this). Not only is your currency almost worthless, those capitalist markets are recovering quickly.  This time, your subjects aren't blaming the Americans; they're blaming your minions, and shooting a few scapegoats won't restore their confidence in you. All of the crises you'd slogged through for the duration of your misrule have reached a critical phase. The world is closing in on you.

Worse, you're dying, and in the only way that really matters, you're dying intestate. Your eldest, the natural successor under traditional Korean concepts of primogeniture, is too corrupted by foreign influences, and besides which, starving people aren't going to give unquestioned devotion to Jabba the Kim. Your second son has all the manly command presence of Richard Simmons and performed poorly when tested in a leadership position. Your third son may well have the necessary DSM-IV diagnosis to be a proper successor, but he's just 27 years old, and lacks the experience or the cred to survive (much less rule) in that octagenarian vipers' nest known as the National Defense Commission. If you want your legacy to outlast you, you need to find a way for him to "make his bones," and fast. In a society where every citizen is inculcated with the ideology of war, fearlessness, and sacrifice, a "limited" war is precisely the thing to legitimize your successor and to change the topic of national conversation to anything but the hardship that your misrule has caused.

Which is to say, South Korean military "retaliation" would be anything but: because Kim Jong Il knows that South Korea will want to avoid all-out war as much as he does, he would be able to cast almost any outcome to a limited war in terms that would consolidate and legitimize a transfer of power from the father to the son. Without such a war, and given the current mood among North Koreans, it seems doubtful that such a transition would have the mandate of heaven.

The stern section of the Cheonan is raised; L.A. Times photo

Perhaps for some of the same reasons, my friend Andrei Lankov says that even if North Korea is found to have sunk the Cheonan, that President Lee can't do anything about it. I would agree that the balance of risks and rewards does not favor a military response, but this does not mean that there is nothing that President Lee can do.

What Kim Jong Il fears is the weakening of his political control, not the loss of a few old boats, and certainly not the loss of a few dozen, hundred, or thousand lives. For the aforementioned reasons, a limited war would only strengthen his political control. What Kim Jong Il wants is to consolidate his power, to restore the credibility of his propaganda, to change the subject of his subjects' grumbling to talk of external threats, and to extort more money from South Korea, but without starting a total war. If what President Lee wants is to deter future North Korean aggression, throwing Kim Jong Il the political lifeline of a limited war is no way to do it. Instead, Lee should intensify what is already working: the economic constriction and political subversion of Kim Jong Il's regime, both of which have significantly eroded the regime's influence over its domestic economy, food supply, public opinion, and capacity to suppress dissent. That's why President Lee still has options.

First, he can stop feeding the beast — he can cut off South Korean economic aid to the North. For cosmetic purposes, he can offer to resume aid if Kim Jong Il cooperates fully with the investigation and personally apologizes to the sailors' families (don't worry; he won't). Lee can stop importing goods from North Korea and cut this flow of hard currency. The other main conduits of South Korean hard currency for Kim Jong Il include the Kumgang Tourist Project, whose property the North has just begun to confiscate anyway, and the Kaesong Industrial Park, which has fallen victim to North Korean political meddling and clearly won't ever become a profitable export manufacturing center now. Lee can also order his banks to take a more aggressive approach to enforcing the financial provisions of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1874. Politically, he should increase his government's support for a community of 17,000-plus North Korean defectors who are leading efforts to broadcast independent news back into their homeland, news that seems to have attracted a significant following in North Korea. He can increase the number of defectors his government admits, and do more diplomatically to force China to let would-be defectors in China travel to South Korea safely. He might even permit defectors to establish a North Korean transitional government-in-exile on his country's soil; after all, with proper education and training, those defectors could be a key part of President Lee's strategy to re-stabilize post-Kim Jong Il North Korea if, as seems increasingly likely, the Kim Dynasty ceases to exist within the next five years.

Certainly these options carry with them some risk that North Korea will engage in further provocations, but the risk will probably still be less than the risks of doing nothing, paying extortion money, or launching military retaliation. In any event, it seems unlikely that as long as Kim Jong Il inhabits a series of palaces whose location is known to the American and ROK air forces, that he would launch a full-scale attack or use nuclear weapons. And as is clear even to the editors of The Washington Post now, the end of the Kim Dynasty is the only realistic end of North Korea's nuclear weapons program, and all of the proliferation it threatens. They might also have said that it's the only way life for the vast majority of North Korea's people will ever become something other than a living hell.

Joshua Stanton is an attorney in Washington D.C. who formerly served as a U.S. Army Judge Advocate in Korea and also blogs at OneFreeKorea.  The views expressed here are solely his own.

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 21, 2010, 04:38:08 AM
instead the ROK should announce its intentions to hit the DPRK leadership, or just try to hit them. That's probably easier said than done.

Quote from: Caliga on April 21, 2010, 05:17:04 AM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 21, 2010, 04:38:08 AM
instead the ROK should announce its intentions to hit the DPRK leadership, or just try to hit them. That's probably easier said than done.

Interesting.  I've never thought about what might happen if the ROK assassinated Kim Jong-il. :hmm:

Quote
There is only one place at which North Korea hurts: the safety of Kim Jong-Il's family and confidants and by extension the maintenance of the authoritarian system. That is the only place. Any retaliation that does not point to this place is no retaliation at all. There is no way to extract a surrender from Kim Jong-Il other than making him bet his own life.

Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2010, 06:39:23 AM
I will eat my hat if the South Koreans attack North Korea over this.

QuoteNorth Korea torpedoed South's navy ship: report

SEOUL
Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:20pm EDT

SEOUL (Reuters) - South Korea's military believes a torpedo fired from a North Korean submarine sank its navy ship last month, based on intelligence gathered jointly with the United States, a news report said on Thursday.

The Yonhap news agency report appears to be the clearest sign yet that Seoul blames Pyongyang for the sinking, thought to have killed 46 sailors in what would be one of the deadliest incidents between the rivals since the end of the 1950-53 Korean War.

The military's intelligence arm sent the report of "certain" North Korean involvement to the presidential Blue House soon after the incident, Yonhap quoted a high-ranking military source as saying.

The report could be an embarrassment to South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, whose government has come under criticism for its handling of the incident.

"North Korean submarines are all armed with heavy torpedoes with 200 kg (441 lb) warheads," the military source was quoted as saying by Yonhap. "It is the military intelligence's assessment that the North attacked with a heavy torpedo.

"The military intelligence has made the report to the Blue House and to the Defence Ministry immediately after the sinking of the Cheonan that it is clearly the work of North Korea's military," the source was quoted as saying.

South Korea plans to soon raise the front half of the 1,200-tonne Cheonan, which went down near a disputed sea border with North Korea, and will issue its verdict on the cause of the explosion that sank the warship after that.

Analysts said there is little South Korea can do even if Pyongyang is found to be the culprit, because a military response was likely to hurt its own quickly recovering economy and bolster North Korean leader Kim Jong-il's standing at home.

The reclusive North has denied it had anything to do with the sinking near the disputed sea border off the west coast that has already been the scene of two deadly naval battles in the past decade.

It accused Lee of using the incident for political gains ahead of crucial local elections in June.

Yonhap said the South Korean and U.S. military suspected the North was stepping up drills to infiltrate a submarine south of the naval border, hidden among Chinese fishing boats, and wage a surprise attack against the South. (Reporting by Jack Kim; Editing by Jon Herskovitz and Alex Richardson)

QuoteN Korea seizes South-owned property 
 
North Korea has said that it has seized five South Korean-owned buildings in a jointly-operated mountain resort amid rising tensions between the two neighbours.

Pyongyang said on Friday that it had seized the property at the Mount Kumgang resort, criticising Seoul for suggestions that the North was involved in the sinking of a South Korean warship last month.

The state Korean Central News Agency reported the government as saying "the confiscated real estate will be put into the possession of the [North] or handed over to new businessmen according to legal procedures".

Last week, a fire station, duty-free shop, cultural centre, spa and reunion centre for families separated by the 1950-53 Korean War at the resort were cordoned off and staff were forced out.

Tours halted

Tours to the area were halted in 2008 after a North Korean soldier shot and killed a South Korean tourist.

The South has demanded a joint investigation into the death.

Tensions between the two sides were high after a South Korean warship sank near a disputed sea border after an explosion, killing 46 sailors.

Seoul has still not officially confirmed the cause of the blast, but a South Korean intelligence report apparently leaked to local media has said that it was almost certainly caused by a torpedo.

"It's our military intelligence's assessment that North Korean sumbmarines attacked the ship with a heavy torpedo," the Yonhap news agency quoted the report as saying.

Pyongyang has denied it was involved and on Friday said that South Korea was "crying out for the total severance of the North-South relations" by "deliberately" linking the sinking to the North.

Tours to Mount Kumgang began more than 10 years ago as part of reconciliation efforts between the two sides.

'Extreme phase'

The resort provided much needed income to the impoverished country, but the North Korean state agency in charge of tours said in a statement published by state media on Friday that tours were unlikely to resume soon.

"The situation has reached such extreme phase that it is at the crossroads of a war or peace, much less thinking of the resumption of the tour," it said.

"It is quite natural that we can no longer show generosity and tolerance to the south side under this situation," the statement said.

Relations between the two Koreas, who are still technically at war, have been increasingly hostile since Lee Myung-bak became president of the south two years ago.

Earlier this week, Lee, who ended years of generous aid to the North, criticised Pyongyang for spending millions of dollars on a huge fireworks display to mark the birth of Kim Il-sung, North Korea's founder, suggesting the money would be better spent on feeding the population.

QuoteOn a KBS television program broadcast nationwide Sunday, South Korean defense minister Kim Tae-Young stated that "those responsible for killing our soldiers must pay the price."

Last month's incident, in which 46 sailors were killed, occurred near the disputed maritime border between North and South Korean territorial waters.

"Retaliation — in whatever form it is — must be done," he added.

The defense minister said that tiny "slivers of aluminum" collected from where the ship went down were being examined to see if they came from possible weapons.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 02, 2010, 07:28:47 AM
O'RLY? :yeahright:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=125161&sectionid=351020405

QuoteOn a KBS television program broadcast nationwide Sunday, South Korean defense minister Kim Tae-Young stated that "those responsible for killing our soldiers must pay the price."

Last month's incident, in which 46 sailors were killed, occurred near the disputed maritime border between North and South Korean territorial waters.

"Retaliation — in whatever form it is — must be done," he added.

The defense minister said that tiny "slivers of aluminum" collected from where the ship went down were being examined to see if they came from possible weapons.