South Korean navy ship sinking near North - possibly torpedoed

[Razgovory]

The actions are still the same.  Ships shooting at one another.  Sometimes they shoot at each other across the DMZ.  When tanks come rolling though the DMZ then it's something new.

[Martinus]

I can't remember, where in Korea are you?  Are you going to be killed in the initial artillery bombardment of Seoul or would it take a massive zerg rush to reach you?

he may not live in Korea, but if there is war between the North and South, the US will get involved, and NK has nuclear weapons.  Even without nuclear weapons, in a war with conventional weapons the US would still intervene, and there would still be US troops there, and if the US gets involved there, other countries are going to get involved, and maybe even China would send 'volunteers' like the last time.

The only difference is there would be no Russian planes this time.

Thanks for this explanation but we really only needed a confirmation that Tim would be killed.

[Martinus]

Would Tim be played by: Jodie Foster.

Isn't she too butch?

[Josephus]

Come on. Since when does the sinking of a ship precipitate full US involvement in a war? Sheesh.

1898 & 1917 

You will note I was being ironic, right.

[jimmy olsen]

Remember the Cheonan!

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/03/205_63219.html

By Jung Sung-ki
Staff Reporter

Defense Minister Kim Tae-young cautiously raised the possibility Monday that the ill-fated frigate Cheonan may have hit a mine laid by North Korea.

His remark drew attention as Cheong Wa Dae and defense officials had previously sought to downplay the North's possible involvement in the deadly ship wreck Friday in which 46 South Korean sailors remain "missing in action."

Answering questions at the National Assembly on the cause of the incident, Kim said, "North Korean mines may have floated into our territorial waters."

However, he refused to comment on whether the mines had been placed by the North intentionally or had drifted into South Korean waters.

Earlier in the day, rescue workers confirmed the location of the stern of the downed ship, which was split in two after an unexplained explosion, the defense ministry said.

About 100 South Korean and U.S. divers began operations and succeeded in reaching the stern, which was about 50 meters from where the ship went down, and about 40 meters underwater, ministry spokesman Won Tae-jae told reporters.

The divers tied a loop of rope around its deck, Won said.

They tapped on the outside of the hull but failed to hear any sound inside, he said.

Kim ruled out the possibility of a blast caused by South Korean mines, and also played down the possibility of a torpedo attack.

North Korea bought about 4,000 sea mines from the former Soviet Union during the 1950-53 Korean War and was believed to have laid about 3,000 of them both in eastern and western waters off the Korean Peninsula, Kim noted.

"Almost all mines were removed, but not 100 percent," he said. "A North Korean mine was found in South Korean waters in 1984 and another was removed in 1995."

Both Koreas deployed floating and submerged mines near the Northern Limit Line (NLL), the de facto sea border, after the Korean War ended in a truce, not a peace treaty.

Military experts said an acoustic mine might have been triggered by the Cheonan's propellers. Acoustic mines are activated by the noise of a passing ship's screws.

The location of the wreckage came two days after search-and-rescue (SAR) efforts began near the western sea border with North Korea.

Most of the 46 missing sailors are believed to have been in the stern when the 1,200-ton ship was destroyed and sank 1.8 kilometers southwest of Baengnyeong Island near the NLL.

A Navy salvage team confirmed the location of the bow of the vessel, which was carrying crew of 104, Sunday. Fifty-eight sailors, including the captain, were rescued from one of the country's worst sea disasters.

It is possible that some missing sailors could have survived in air-pockets inside the ship, although the water in the West Sea is about 4 degrees Celsius.

"We are expecting to see some positive results as the rest of the body of the ship has been found," Rear Adm. Lee Ki-shik at the Joint Chiefs of Staff told reporters. "We'll be sending down underwater cameras and hope that all sailors are still alive."

President Lee Myung-bak called for speeding up the rescue operation.

"We should use all the manpower and equipment available to rescue the sailors as fast as possible," Lee was quoted by his spokeswoman Kim Eun-hye as saying, after receiving an emergency briefing from his top aides.

The President stressed rescuers "should not give up hope for more survivors."

Minister Kim said, however, he believes the possibility of survivors is low given the amount of time that has passed since the accident occurred.

Full-fledged rescue operations by civilian divers as well as South Korean and U.S. salvage specialists are underway, the minister said.

About 20 South Korean vessels, including the 3,000-ton Gwangyang rescue ship and two minesweepers, have been conducting efforts to reach possible survivors.

The Japan-based U.S. 7th Fleet dispatched a 3,000-ton rescue ship to the site, and 15 U.S. divers are supporting the operation, Kim said.

The cause of the explosion on the ship remains unclear.

Several possibilities have been suggested: an accidental onboard explosion, or a blast caused by hitting rocks or sea mines planted either by North or South Korea.

With regard to North Korean involvement, U.S. Forces Korea Commander Gen. Walter Sharp also said in a statement that his command didn't detect any indication that this was the case.

[email protected]

[Lettow77]

 It is in their best interest to claim it was an accident, even if it was a north korean torpedo attack.

[Neil]

Weak.  South Korea should be driving armoured pincers deep into North Korea to encircle and destroy the forces shelling Seoul.

[jimmy olsen]

According to this article he did say it was possible the North did this on purpose.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100329/ap_on_re_as/as_skorea_ship_sinks

North Korea may also have sent a mine floating south with the current, he said.

"North Korea may have intentionally floated underwater mines to inflict damage on us," Kim told lawmakers.

[jimmy olsen]

Also, how about this option, way more creepy than regular mines.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/03/30/2010033000884.html

N.Korea 'Runs Naval Suicide Squads'

Former North Korean soldiers who defected to South Korea on Monday claimed "underwater suicide squads" may have been responsible for the mysterious sinking of a South Korean naval vessel on Friday.

They are similar to the underwater demolition teams operated by the South Korean Navy, the defectors claimed. Recruited from the cream among North Korea's naval commandos, members of the teams are treated well but undergo brutal training.

According to one high-ranking North Korean defector, the North formed suicide attack squads in each branch of the military after the country's leader Kim Jong-il said during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 that no military in the world can defeat an army that can carry out suicide bombings.

The suicide attack squads are known as the "invincibles" in the Air Force, "bombs" in the Army and "human torpedoes" in the Navy. North Korea is said to place special emphasis on the naval squads. It operates a brigade of suicide attack squads in its East Sea and West Sea fleets and they are considered key to overcoming North Korea's inferior conventional military power.

One former North Korean sailor who defected to South Korea said the suicide squads have many semi-submersible vessels that can carry two bombers and either two torpedoes or two floating mines. In areas like the West Sea where the underwater current is fast, the suicide bombers train with mines rather than torpedoes.

One defector who served in North Korea's intelligence service, said, "Following the first naval battle in 1999, North Korea realized that it cannot defeat the South Korean Navy by conventional means and began studying unconventional methods." The best method is said to be the use of "acoustic mines" carried by small, semi-submersibles that travel at speeds of less than 2 km/h. The craft could be detected by South Korean sonar if they travel any faster. If the underwater squads returned after placing the mines on the hull of a ship, it would be very difficult to find evidence of the attack.

[Caliga]

*shrug* Nothing new.  The Japs did it in WWII.

[Valmy]

So when the supposedly great rising power of China going to do anything about this?  Some world power.

[dps]

Would Tim be played by: Jodie Foster.

Isn't she too butch?

Yeah, and too old.

[Caliga]

So when the supposedly great rising power of China going to do anything about this?  Some world power.

What is it that you would like China to do?

[jimmy olsen]

HMB what do you know about this paper? It seems rather sensationalist and wikipedia says it's rightwing. Do you know how reliable it's supposed to be?

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/04/02/2010040200382.html

Suspicion of N.Korean Hand in Sinking Mounts

Military insiders believe there is mounting evidence that the Navy corvette Cheonan was hit by a North Korean torpedo before it broke in two and sank in waters near the de-facto inter-Korean border. But the Defense Ministry and military authorities insist on the importance of establishing the exact cause of the incident before any conclusions are announced.

A senior military officer on Thursday said, "There is a 60 to 70 percent chance that the ship was hit" by a North Korean torpedo. But he added the question remains whether any evidence was left behind.

He based his speculation on indications that the ship was sunk by an external explosion and that a torpedo was in his view a more likely cause than an old mine from the days of the Korean War, a possibility that has also been floated.

When he visited Baeknyeong Island near the scene of accident on Tuesday, President Lee Myung-bak asked Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Kim Sung-chan whether there would be identifiable traces left behind in a mine explosion, and Kim said it is hard to tell but there is also the possibility of a torpedo attack. Kim added it is fairly certain that the ship's ammunition storage did not blow up.

At a recent session of the National Assembly Defense Committee, Defense Minister Kim Tae-young said North Korea has semi-submersibles that can carry two torpedoes and can fire them from a certain distance."

Right after the accident, the Second Navy Fleet Command elevated the maritime alert to the highest level, Grade A, and sent the Navy vessel Sokcho near the Northern Limit Line, the de-facto maritime border.

When an unidentified object appeared on the radar screen around 10:55 p.m. on March 26, the Sokcho believed it to be a North Korean semi-submersible and fired about 130 shells from 76 mm guns.

But other experts say that the North has no reason to launch such a reckless provocation with the approach of its leader Kim Jong-il's imminent visit to China and the resumption of the six-party nuclear talks.

But a retired chief of naval operations said, "In 2002 when the World Cup reached its climax, the North unexpectedly provoked the second battle of Yeonpyeong in the West Sea. The North has done many things that are inexplicable by common sense."

[jimmy olsen]

Hmm...not good.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/13/world/la-fg-korea-navy13-2010apr13

South Korea restraint after ship sinking adds to clamor for government action

Amid speculation that North Korea played a role, Seoul has warned against premature conclusions. Others say even if the North was involved, the South isn't ready to risk war by challenging it.

April 13, 2010|By John M. Glionna

Reporting from Seoul — No one knows what sank a South Korean naval patrol boat in the middle of the night last month, but that hasn't prevented a growing public clamor demanding that President Lee Myung-bak challenge the North Korean regime over the disaster.

The 1,200-ton Cheonan went down March 26 near the disputed sea border with North Korea, split in half by a mysterious blast. Of the 46 missing crewmen, the bodies of only two have been recovered.

With speculation rampant that a North Korean torpedo sank the Cheonan, critics say the lack of response makes the government appear weak in the face of obvious hostilities by the North.

In recent days, newspaper articles and op-ed pieces have steadily increased pressure on Lee's administration to demand answers from the government of Kim Jong Il.

Adding to public suspicion that overcautious officials are trying to hide something, the South Korean government has sent conflicting messages on the sinking.

Lee has asked for the public's patience, warning against "premature conclusions" as the military prepares for salvage efforts to raise the wreckage from the sea floor. But Defense Minister Kim Tae-young has said he believes a torpedo could have hit the ship and speculated that "North Korea may have intentionally floated underwater mines to inflict harm on us."

Some observers say officials have avoided pointing a finger at the North for good reason: To do so would call for a decisive military response that the South is not prepared to carry out.

Analysts say South Korea risks provoking a war that would devastate its economy, scare off foreign investors and place Seoul, the capital, under threat from North Korea's arsenal of short-range missiles.

"The South Korean government knows exactly what it can do about this situation, and that is nothing. It cannot start a war," said Andrei Lankov, a history professor at Kookmin University in Seoul.

Others say a rash act by Seoul would mirror the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, which was preceded by faulty assumptions that President Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction.

Conjecture on the Internet and elsewhere has pointed to the possibility of a boiler explosion aboard the Cheonan or that the ship might have struck a mine left over from the 1950-53 Korean War.

And what if evidence does point to a North Korean torpedo attack?

"What would they get by attacking North Korean military installations?" Lankov said. "The satisfaction would be short-lived because the voters calling for revenge would soon blame the government over any fallout for its actions."

[email protected]

Ju-min Park of The Times' Seoul Bureau contributed to this report.