http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8433285.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8433285.stm)
QuoteBritish man said to be mentally ill executed in China
A British man convicted of drug smuggling in China has been executed, the Foreign Office has confirmed.
Akmal Shaikh, 53, a father-of-three, of London, had denied any wrongdoing and his family said he was mentally ill.
The execution took place despite repeated calls from his family and the British government for clemency.
Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he was "appalled and disappointed". But the Chinese Embassy said Mr Shaikh had no previous record of mental illness.
Mr Shaikh's family made continued calls for leniency right up until the execution deadline, citing his mental state, saying that he suffered from bipolar disorder.
His daughter Leilla Horsnell said: "I am shocked and disappointed that the execution went ahead with no regards to my dad's mental health problems, and I struggle to understand how this is justice."
'Lethal injection'
In a statement issued after the execution, the Chinese Embassy said Mr Shaikh's rights "were properly respected and guaranteed" and British concerns were "duly noted and taken into consideration".
It said: "As for his possible mental illness which has been much talked about, there apparently has been no previous medical record."
A report from the official Chinese news agency Xinhua said that China's Supreme People's Court had not been provided with any documentation proving that Mr Shaikh had a mental disorder.
Mr Shaikh is the first EU national to be executed in China in more than 50 years.
Foreign Office minister Ivan Lewis said he is believed to have died by lethal injection.
His body will not be repatriated to the UK, and Mr Lewis said Mr Shaikh had been buried quickly "in accordance with the Muslim faith".
His family said he had been delusional and duped into a carrying a suitcase that did not belong to him when he was found with 4kg of heroin in Urumqi, north-west China, in September 2007.
His daughter has said drug smugglers in Poland convinced him they would make him a popstar in China.
'Inadequate interpretation'
Mr Lewis held last-ditch talks with the Chinese ambassador in London on Monday evening.
He said the government had made 27 representations to China in two years, and believed it had done everything it possibly could.
The execution made him "sick to the stomach", he said, and China "had a responsibility to adhere to the most basic standards of human rights".
In a statement, Mr Brown said: "I condemn the execution of Akmal Shaikh in the strongest terms, and am appalled and disappointed that our persistent requests for clemency have not been granted.
"I am particularly concerned that no mental health assessment was undertaken.
"At this time our thoughts are with Mr Shaikh's family and friends and I send them our sincere condolences."
Foreign Secretary David Miliband also condemned the execution.
He said the UK was opposed to the use of the death penalty in all circumstances, but also "deeply regretted" that his specific concerns in this case, including "mental health issues, and inadequate professional interpretation" had been ignored.
Conservative leader David Cameron echoed the condemnation, saying he "deplored and deeply regretted" the execution.
"It is appalling that the concerns [about Mr Shaikh's mental health] were not independently assessed during the more than two years [he] was in custody, and taken properly into account in the judicial process," he said.
The legal charity Reprieve had taken up Mr Shaikh's case for the family.
Through the charity, the family issued a statement thanking all those who tried to help including Reprieve, the Foreign Office, those who attended a vigil outside the Chinese embassy in London, and the organisers of a Facebook group calling for clemency.
They asked for privacy "as they come to terms with what has happened to someone they loved".
Katherine O'Shea, Reprieve's communications director, said it was "devastated" Mr Shaikh had been killed.
"That such a thing can happen in this day and age is really something that should alarm all of us," she said.
"This guy was a very vulnerable person, extremely ill. He slipped through the cracks of society, and he was frankly failed by China and by their legal system. And it's an absolute disgrace that he should have been killed."
Philip Alston, a UN special rapporteur, said the execution amounted to a violation of Chinese and international law.
International law "points very strongly in the direction" of the principle that the death penalty should only be used for crimes which result directly in the death of others, he said.
"It is time for the international community to mount a much more concerted effort to put an end to these sorts of executions," he added.
'Dark ages'
In its statement, the Chinese Embassy said Mr Shaikh was convicted of "serious" drug trafficking.
"The amount of heroin he brought into China was 4,030g, enough to cause 26,800 deaths, threatening numerous families," it said.
It added: "The legal structures of China and UK may be different, but it should not stand in the way of enhancing our bilateral relations on the basis of mutual respect."
A spokeswoman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Jiang Yu, told a press briefing in Beijing no-one had the right to comment on China's judicial sovereignty.
"We express our strong dissatisfaction and opposition to the British government's unreasonable criticism of the case. We urge [them] to correct their mistake in order to avoid harming China-UK relations," she said.
BBC world affairs correspondent Mike Wooldridge said in the final appeal for clemency before the execution Britain had expressed the hope that its relationship with China would count for something.
"But in the event, its influence has been severely tested in this case," he said.
Charity MDF, The Bipolar Organisation, described the execution as "medieval rough justice" and an "absolute tragedy".
Spokesman Robert Westhead said: "The way the Chinese authorities have stubbornly failed to take account of this poor man's severe mental illness shows that China is still stuck in the dark ages."
Will they charge the family for the injection? I'm surprised to see that nothing was posted about this, It's been quite a big story for this slow news period.
Hilarious.
I love it when "Swedes" get arrested in third world countries and it turns out they're actually ""Swedes""
And yes, I mean ""Swedes"" in that they're "Swedes" when they get citizenship, but apparently everyone who has a permanent residency permit or indeed ever set foot in Sweden is ""Swedish""
Quote from: Slargos on December 29, 2009, 06:00:32 AM
Hilarious.
I love it when "Swedes" get arrested in third world countries and it turns out they're actually ""Swedes""
And yes, I mean ""Swedes"" in that they're "Swedes" when they get citizenship, but apparently everyone who has a permanent residency permit or indeed ever set foot in Sweden is ""Swedish""
Nobody is talking about Swedes, what's your point?
Chinese culture view mental illness very differently than western culture. Mental problems are seldom accepted as excuse for anything, especially in the courts. You are either crazy, in which case you should be locked up, or you are normal.
Quote from: The Larch on December 29, 2009, 06:02:47 AM
Quote from: Slargos on December 29, 2009, 06:00:32 AM
Hilarious.
I love it when "Swedes" get arrested in third world countries and it turns out they're actually ""Swedes""
And yes, I mean ""Swedes"" in that they're "Swedes" when they get citizenship, but apparently everyone who has a permanent residency permit or indeed ever set foot in Sweden is ""Swedish""
Nobody is talking about Swedes, what's your point?
QuoteBritish man said to be mentally ill executed in China
A British man convicted of drug smuggling in China has been executed, the Foreign Office has confirmed.
Akmal Shaikh, 53, a father-of-three, of London, had denied any wrongdoing and his family said he was mentally ill.
Granted, in countries that don't have a communist press, it's not an issue since they write his name there as well.
It just strikes my funny bone is all. :homestar:
Quote from: The Larch on December 29, 2009, 06:02:47 AM
Nobody is talking about Swedes, what's your point?
He's setting up for a racist rant about how brown pipple != Europeans. :)
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 06:10:32 AM
Quote from: The Larch on December 29, 2009, 06:02:47 AM
Nobody is talking about Swedes, what's your point?
He's setting up for a racist rant about how brown pipple != Europeans. :)
No, I'm setting up for a comment on nomenclature.
Swede used to = Ethnic Swede
Now Swede = Person who currently lives in Sweden or has lived in Sweden at any point in their life
When a person is described as "British" and his name is "Akmal", I get a chuckle. :sleep:
Was he officially insane at the time of the crime?
Quote from: Slargos on December 29, 2009, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 06:10:32 AM
Quote from: The Larch on December 29, 2009, 06:02:47 AM
Nobody is talking about Swedes, what's your point?
He's setting up for a racist rant about how brown pipple != Europeans. :)
No, I'm setting up for a comment on nomenclature.
Swede used to = Ethnic Swede
Now Swede = Person who currently lives in Sweden or has lived in Sweden at any point in their life
When a person is described as "British" and his name is "Akmal", I get a chuckle. :sleep:
Would you chuckle if you met Emperor Gupta and he told you his first name? I can assure you that it's a real tongue twister.
Far more interesting than the Muslim Brit who thought he could become a popstar in China, is the Black Brit convicted of drug smuggling in Lao. She had a white prisoner slip her a vial of sperm which she inseminated herself with, in order to avoid the death penalty. :lol:
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2009, 06:05:13 AM
Chinese culture view mental illness very differently than western culture. Mental problems are seldom accepted as excuse for anything, especially in the courts. You are either crazy, in which case you should be locked up, or you are normal.
Oh the Chinese and their lovely and tolerant society. :P
Gupta hasn't absorbed British culture. He's positively tribal.
Quote from: The Larch on December 29, 2009, 06:15:36 AM
Would you chuckle if you met Emperor Gupta and he told you his first name? I can assure you that it's a real tongue twister.
Alas, I am much too polite to chuckle a person in the face for something so trivial. :sleep:
Quote from: Slargos on December 29, 2009, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 06:10:32 AM
Quote from: The Larch on December 29, 2009, 06:02:47 AM
Nobody is talking about Swedes, what's your point?
He's setting up for a racist rant about how brown pipple != Europeans. :)
No, I'm setting up for a comment on nomenclature.
Swede used to = Ethnic Swede
Now Swede = Person who currently lives in Sweden or has lived in Sweden at any point in their life
When a person is described as "British" and his name is "Akmal", I get a chuckle. :sleep:
I don't get it at all - "Briton" is a clearly national (as in "citizenship") term unlike, say, Englishman or a Scotsman.
Quote from: Slargos on December 29, 2009, 06:13:04 AM
When a person is described as "British" and his name is "Akmal", I get a chuckle. :sleep:
:frusty:
Even Lord British wasn't really British.
Quote from: The Brain on December 29, 2009, 06:21:33 AM
Even Lord British wasn't really British.
He was some guy. :yes:
Yes, it is much easier to be "British" than to qualify as English or Scottish. I would say it is more of a cultural matter whereas being "English" or whatever is more a matter of blood. One potential problem if the various nationalists get their way is that the useful supranational category of British will be lost.
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 06:19:17 AM
I don't get it at all - "Briton" is a clearly national (as in "citizenship") term unlike, say, Englishman or a Scotsman.
You have a point, which I will have to concede. :sleep:
Quote from: The Brain on December 29, 2009, 06:17:12 AM
Gupta hasn't absorbed British culture. He's positively tribal.
I didn't know that Charlton supporters were that bad. :ph34r:
Quote from: The Brain on December 29, 2009, 06:21:33 AM
Even Lord British wasn't really British.
:o My world is shattered :weep:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 29, 2009, 06:23:38 AMI would say it is more of a cultural matter whereas being "English" or whatever is more a matter of blood.
Is this guy British in a cultural sense or a legal one?
Quote from: The Brain on December 29, 2009, 06:21:33 AM
Even Lord British wasn't really British.
I remember when he got murdered in Ultima Online :nerd:
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on December 29, 2009, 06:29:54 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 29, 2009, 06:23:38 AMI would say it is more of a cultural matter whereas being "English" or whatever is more a matter of blood.
Is this guy British in a cultural sense or a legal one?
I've no idea, haven't met him :D
Note that his daughter has an English surname however, that's the only indication of how assimilated he may have been that I can see in the story.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2009, 06:05:13 AM
Chinese culture view mental illness very differently than western culture. Mental problems are seldom accepted as excuse for anything, especially in the courts. You are either crazy, in which case you should be locked up, or you are normal.
Well, yeah, whatever. your culture is a despicable, abominable collection of superstitions and outright barbarism. I frankly don't care anymore about your "cultural differences" excuses, whether it comes to some mundane mind-boggling pettiness (like your attitudes to money, or appearances) or barbarisms like eating endangered species or executing mentally ill people.
The only proper response to your culture is to condemn it wholeheartedly and hope it will follow in the footsteps of, say, Aztecs, and end up on the dumpster of history.
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 07:38:37 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2009, 06:05:13 AM
Chinese culture view mental illness very differently than western culture. Mental problems are seldom accepted as excuse for anything, especially in the courts. You are either crazy, in which case you should be locked up, or you are normal.
Well, yeah, whatever. your culture is a despicable, abominable collection of superstitions and outright barbarism. I frankly don't care anymore about your "cultural differences" excuses, whether it comes to some mundane mind-boggling pettiness (like your attitudes to money, or appearances) or barbarisms like eating endangered species or executing mentally ill people.
The only proper response to your culture is to condemn it wholeheartedly and hope it will follow in the footsteps of, say, Aztecs, and end up on the dumpster of history.
Wow, Marty, I never knew you could be so bitchy.
As it should be. Being mentally ill does not absolve you of a crime.
I am a little concerned that China would execute people for drug trafficking (and yes I know Singapore and some other countries use capital punishment in these cases as well), but I don't give a rat's ass that he was mentally ill or whatever. Everyone that is convicted of murder and eligible for the death penalty over here magically becomes either mentally ill or profoundly retarded, too. ^_^
I love how they're ranting 'mentally ill' when all he maybe has is bipolarity.
About 5% of the country has that but we don't bitch about it. It'd be nice if it could get me out of things but alas it can't.
I knew from the start of coverage on this China would do it. Prboally see it as prestige and showing the west they can't be pushed around, no doubt they were muttering to each other that this was the Brits pretending it was still the 19th century where they could try their own citizens.
Quote from: Slargos on December 29, 2009, 06:13:04 AM
When a person is described as "British" and his name is "Akmal", I get a chuckle. :sleep:
Indeed. We should take whatever measure is necessary to force them to assimilate. Such as the obligation to abandon their 'native' name and adopt a proper british or swedish name.
G.
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
I've noticed that when a brit gets in trouble overseas, they are always labeled "mentally ill".
The dude that hacked into the military computers? Asparagus syndrome.
The ones that commit murder over here (or anywhere else)? Retards.
The solution? Don't let Brits into your country.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 29, 2009, 08:37:39 AM
The dude that hacked into the military computers? Asparagus syndrome.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
You don't believe in the superiority of western culture Cal? *suspicious* <_<
G.
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:43:05 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 29, 2009, 08:37:39 AM
The dude that hacked into the military computers? Asparagus syndrome.
:lmfao:
Thank Seedy for the Asparagus syndrome crack. I think he first used it and I stole it.
Asperger's isn't actually a real disorder.
Quote from: Grallon on December 29, 2009, 08:45:02 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
You don't believe in the superiority of western culture Cal? *suspicious* <_<
I believe in the superiority of heterosexual culture.
Quote from: Neil on December 29, 2009, 09:06:54 AM
I believe in the superiority of heterosexual culture.
So do I - gay sub culture is so... unsatisfactory.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on December 29, 2009, 09:13:26 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 29, 2009, 09:06:54 AM
I believe in the superiority of heterosexual culture.
So do I - gay sub culture is so... unsatisfactory.
Would you then support the physical destruction of those who will not assimilate, such as Martinus?
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
:glare:
Anyway, I don't get it. The article doesn't mention a history of psychiatric treatment, so what's the evidence he had a mental illness?
Quote from: Faeelin on December 29, 2009, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
:glare:
Anyway, I don't get it. The article doesn't mention a history of psychiatric treatment, so what's the evidence he had a mental illness?
Isn't it obvious? Only someone who is mentally ill would commit a crime.
He went to China?
Quote from: Faeelin on December 29, 2009, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
:glare:
Anyway, I don't get it. The article doesn't mention a history of psychiatric treatment, so what's the evidence he had a mental illness?
That's why its "allegedly". The trial to determine if he's mentally ill will occur after his execution. These things go much faster when the defendant is dead.
Quote from: Neil on December 29, 2009, 09:33:10 AM
Would you then support the physical destruction of those who will not assimilate, such as Martinus?
Tsk tsk now that would be wasteful. Besides you should avoid confusing individual behaviors with collective behaviors.
G.
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
What the fuck. I'm not a bigot!
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
What the fuck. I'm not a bigot!
hilarious.
Why is America so soft on drug dealers and traffickers? :huh:
Quote from: Faeelin on December 29, 2009, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
:glare:
Anyway, I don't get it. The article doesn't mention a history of psychiatric treatment, so what's the evidence he had a mental illness?
Allegedly, witnesses reported that he believed he would save the world with an imaginary rabbit. He even wrote a song about that rabbit and world peace while erring in *gasp* Poland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoWoA-XTyCM
That was some good shit he was using. I'd like some. :yes:
Hm, you're only helping China's case with that, since in China it is illegal and punishable by death to be utterly worthless. :cool:
Quote from: Drakken on December 29, 2009, 10:55:47 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on December 29, 2009, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
:glare:
Anyway, I don't get it. The article doesn't mention a history of psychiatric treatment, so what's the evidence he had a mental illness?
Allegedly, witnesses reported that he believed he would save the world with an imaginary rabbit. He even wrote a song about that rabbit and world peace while erring in *gasp* Poland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoWoA-XTyCM
That was some good shit he was using. I'd like some. :yes:
Rabbit, Jewish carpenter... Difference?
Aren't all gaybashers insane and should go free? I'm just trying to understand Mart's position.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2009, 06:05:13 AM
Mental problems are seldom accepted as excuse for anything, especially in the courts.
they have this mentality too, in some US States where they execute the mentally hill. Texas comes to mind, but there might be others too.
Quote from: Drakken on December 29, 2009, 10:55:47 AM
Allegedly, witnesses reported that he believed he would save the world with an imaginary rabbit. He even wrote a song about that rabbit and world peace while erring in *gasp* Poland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoWoA-XTyCM
That was some good shit he was using. I'd like some. :yes:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.listal.com%2Fimage%2F44137%2F500full-donnie-darko-poster.jpg&hash=64043ea08872994ac33cda1c81d6ea448966f190)
Personally I have no problem with mentally illy being executed, especially if they committed a crime.
Quote from: viper37 on December 29, 2009, 02:37:52 PM
they have this mentality too, in some US States where they execute the mentally hill. Texas comes to mind, but there might be others too.
*sigh* We execute the retarded not the mentally ill. For fuck sake.
Quote from: DGuller on December 29, 2009, 02:58:58 PM
Personally I have no problem with mentally illy being executed, especially if they committed a crime.
:yes:
You're only a bigot if you hate the things Marti doesn't hate. Take gays, for example. :mad:
Quote from: Valmy on December 29, 2009, 03:06:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 29, 2009, 02:37:52 PM
they have this mentality too, in some US States where they execute the mentally hill. Texas comes to mind, but there might be others too.
*sigh* We execute the retarded not the mentally ill. For fuck sake.
The continue existence of Rick Perry suggests otherwise.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 29, 2009, 04:28:15 PM
The continue existence of Rick Perry suggests otherwise.
Don't mess with Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 29, 2009, 06:23:38 AM
Yes, it is much easier to be "British" than to qualify as English or Scottish. I would say it is more of a cultural matter whereas being "English" or whatever is more a matter of blood. One potential problem if the various nationalists get their way is that the useful supranational category of British will be lost.
I used to think this was the case but nowadays I'm not so sure. We don't actually do much as 'Britain' outside of the world of politics and fighting. I think sports and the arts are largely split into Scottish, English and Welsh. Apart from the Queen I can't think of anyone who I'd see as primarily British.
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 04:27:50 PM
You're only a bigot if you hate the things Marti doesn't hate. Take gays, for example. :mad:
I'm not perfect but I'm no grallon or Slargos either.
Quote from: Valmy on December 29, 2009, 03:06:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 29, 2009, 02:37:52 PM
they have this mentality too, in some US States where they execute the mentally hill. Texas comes to mind, but there might be others too.
*sigh* We execute the retarded not the mentally ill. For fuck sake.
Not much difference ;)
How about religious people Mart? You hate them?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2009, 05:19:30 PM
How about religious people Mart? You hate them?
I guess he doesn't realize that he when goes into temper tantrums about "how he hates them so much", people my mistake that for you know, hating people.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2009, 05:19:30 PM
How about religious people Mart? You hate them?
Only those who hate me for being a gay man. And all the others, for being enablers. :P
I don't necessarily hate religious people belonging to churches that do not hate me, as long as they are happy to kill all the catholics and the like. :)
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 05:39:33 PM
I don't necessarily hate religious people belonging to churches that do not hate me, as long as they are happy to kill all the catholics and the like. :)
I think you'd like the Church of England. Their greatest virtue is that over 500 years they've more or less successfully avoided religion :)
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 29, 2009, 05:41:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 05:39:33 PM
I don't necessarily hate religious people belonging to churches that do not hate me, as long as they are happy to kill all the catholics and the like. :)
I think you'd like the Church of England. Their greatest virtue is that over 500 years they've more or less successfully avoided religion :)
I kinda like Rev. Rowan Williams even though he is not strong enough to stand up to the African bigots.
Black people = bigots?
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 05:39:33 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2009, 05:19:30 PM
How about religious people Mart? You hate them?
Only those who hate me for being a gay man. And all the others, for being enablers. :P
I don't necessarily hate religious people belonging to churches that do not hate me, as long as they are happy to kill all the catholics and the like. :)
In other words you hate them for the same reasons that Slargos and grallon hate people. In other words, a bigot.
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 05:42:31 PM
I kinda like Rev. Rowan Williams even though he is not strong enough to stand up to the African bigots.
The problem with the Anglican Communion is that it's got lots of non-English people in it and they've a horrible habit of standing by their (or indeed having) beliefs. So the Africans don't like too much tolerance of gays while the Americans appoint lesbian Bishops. If it was just a CofE issue they'd work out some sort of compromise that leaves everyone unhappy.
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 09:45:50 AM
What the fuck. I'm not a bigot!
Quote
Well, yeah, whatever. your culture is a despicable, abominable collection of superstitions and outright barbarism. I frankly don't care anymore about your "cultural differences" excuses, whether it comes to some mundane mind-boggling pettiness (like your attitudes to money, or appearances) or barbarisms like eating endangered species or executing mentally ill people.
The only proper response to your culture is to condemn it wholeheartedly and hope it will follow in the footsteps of, say, Aztecs, and end up on the dumpster of history.
Hmmmm....
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 29, 2009, 04:36:45 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 29, 2009, 06:23:38 AM
Yes, it is much easier to be "British" than to qualify as English or Scottish. I would say it is more of a cultural matter whereas being "English" or whatever is more a matter of blood. One potential problem if the various nationalists get their way is that the useful supranational category of British will be lost.
I used to think this was the case but nowadays I'm not so sure. We don't actually do much as 'Britain' outside of the world of politics and fighting. I think sports and the arts are largely split into Scottish, English and Welsh. Apart from the Queen I can't think of anyone who I'd see as primarily British.
I'm saying that there are multiple levels of "belonging". The British one may be attractive to immigrants because it is more accessible to them.
For myself I agree with you, I'm as likely to move to Scotland as France or Portugal; whereas I would move anywhere in England without a moment's thought, being British becomes less significant as the years go by.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 29, 2009, 06:03:23 PM
I'm saying that there are multiple levels of "belonging". The British one may be attractive to immigrants because it is more accessible to them.
For myself I agree with you, I'm as likely to move to Scotland as France or Portugal; whereas I would move anywhere in England without a moment's thought, being British becomes less significant as the years go by.
I agree but I'm wondering whether we're sort of seeing the redundancy of Britishness. Because it's such a vague concept that is really tied up with politics. Britishness makes sense in the context of politics and war but that's really its only cultural relevance. I think one of the reasons nationalism's on the rise in Scotland for example is that unionism's been defended in such a money grubbing way. The Scots should stay so they can enjoy England's largesse. This turns the Scottish into poor cousins, inevitably increasing resentment on both sides of the border. To address nationalism - whether English or Scottish - I think you need a romantic unionism, a sense of British identity that plucks the heartstrings. That is why I think Gordon Brown's talk of common 'values' is a load of hot air. British identity isn't to do with values in any sense whatsoever. To be honest when I think of Britishness the only thing I come back to is the military and the wars that have been fought.
Nowadays I think people, including immigrants, identify far more readily with Scotland or with England. I think the ironic thing about Norman Tebbit's cricket test of nationality is that in itself it undermines Britishness. Who is more assimilated the 'British' Punjabi family living in Galloway, or the Punjabi family living in Galloway who desperately hope England lose to Germany?
I suppose that if we go back to the foundation of "Britishness", back in 1707, we are talking about an arrangement that was substantially about power.....and anti-papism of course.
I take your point about the money-grubbing, but as regards the Scots that is what it was always about :D
The Navigation Acts, for example, were all about carriage in English ships; the Scots faced the option of becoming an economic backwater or subsuming their nationalism and taking a share of the profits......
I think Brown is floundering with his British waffling because all this is increasingly an anachronism.
On the other hand, my children are 8/16 English, 5/16 Irish and 3/16 Scottish..........that sort of background is common enough..........the 4 countries are so close in many ways, family.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 29, 2009, 06:36:05 PM
On the other hand, my children are 8/16 English, 5/16 Irish and 3/16 Scottish..........that sort of background is common enough..........the 4 countries are so close in many ways, family.
The exception as ever is the Welsh who rarely venture out of their homeland :lol:
Though I agree entirely. The only nationality I don't have in my family background is English which is, of course, what I am. That side of things is something worth keeping, I'm not sure if it needs our portmanteau nation anymore though :(
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2009, 08:34:57 AM
It amuses me that the most vocal bigots people on the board now are all gay. :)
What the fuck. I'm not a bigot!
Mental illness defence? :unsure:
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 29, 2009, 07:05:32 PM
Mental illness defence? :unsure:
More likely twinkie defense.
One of the biggest cultural shocks I had when I first came to Canada was how people talked about their mental problems so openly, as if those were ailments that could be managed and cured. I was taught that there was only one kind of mental problem, the grab a weapon and kill every random stranger/neighbour kind. All others are manifestations of severe flaws in character and personal honour. Autism = anti-social behaviour. Depression = persimmist. Bi-polarity = anger management issues. In China, it is a great shame to admit going to a psychiatrist. This is cause for firing, and to lose friends.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2009, 07:13:00 PM
One of the biggest cultural shocks I had when I first came to Canada was how people talked about their mental problems so openly, as if those were ailments that could be managed and cured. I was taught that there was only one kind of mental problem, the grab a weapon and kill every random stranger/neighbour kind. All others are manifestations of severe flaws in character and personal honour. Autism = anti-social behaviour. Depression = persimmist. Bi-polarity = anger management issues. In China, it is a great shame to admit going to a psychiatrist. This is cause for firing, and to lose friends.
What did you do when you learned that Westerners believe that Germs make you sick instead of angry spirits?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 29, 2009, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 29, 2009, 03:06:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 29, 2009, 02:37:52 PM
they have this mentality too, in some US States where they execute the mentally hill. Texas comes to mind, but there might be others too.
*sigh* We execute the retarded not the mentally ill. For fuck sake.
The continue existence of Rick Perry suggests otherwise.
If simply being retarded was a crime we would have to execute the majority of the people living the eastern part of the state.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2009, 07:13:00 PM
One of the biggest cultural shocks I had when I first came to Canada was how people talked about their mental problems so openly, as if those were ailments that could be managed and cured. I was taught that there was only one kind of mental problem, the grab a weapon and kill every random stranger/neighbour kind. All others are manifestations of severe flaws in character and personal honour. Autism = anti-social behaviour. Depression = persimmist. Bi-polarity = anger management issues. In China, it is a great shame to admit going to a psychiatrist. This is cause for firing, and to lose friends.
You know, when I hear things like this, I am afraid that China will defeat the West. The sheer sensibility of their worldview means that they are a mortal danger to cowardly, decadent Western society.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2009, 07:13:00 PM
One of the biggest cultural shocks I had when I first came to Canada was how people talked about their mental problems so openly, as if those were ailments that could be managed and cured. I was taught that there was only one kind of mental problem, the grab a weapon and kill every random stranger/neighbour kind. All others are manifestations of severe flaws in character and personal honour. Autism = anti-social behaviour. Depression = persimmist. Bi-polarity = anger management issues. In China, it is a great shame to admit going to a psychiatrist. This is cause for firing, and to lose friends.
Prease to be subscribing to your newsretter.
Quote from: Neil on December 29, 2009, 07:49:23 PMYou know, when I hear things like this, I am afraid that China will defeat the West. The sheer sensibility of their worldview means that they are a mortal danger to cowardly, decadent Western society.
:lol:
So what would you chose in the end, if the Chinese prevail in this your proposed clash of cultures? Throw your lot in with them or go down with your defeated colours nailed to the mast of the West?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 29, 2009, 07:16:43 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2009, 07:13:00 PM
One of the biggest cultural shocks I had when I first came to Canada was how people talked about their mental problems so openly, as if those were ailments that could be managed and cured. I was taught that there was only one kind of mental problem, the grab a weapon and kill every random stranger/neighbour kind. All others are manifestations of severe flaws in character and personal honour. Autism = anti-social behaviour. Depression = persimmist. Bi-polarity = anger management issues. In China, it is a great shame to admit going to a psychiatrist. This is cause for firing, and to lose friends.
What did you do when you learned that Westerners believe that Germs make you sick instead of angry spirits?
The Boxer Rebellion.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 29, 2009, 06:00:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 09:45:50 AM
What the fuck. I'm not a bigot!
Quote
Well, yeah, whatever. your culture is a despicable, abominable collection of superstitions and outright barbarism. I frankly don't care anymore about your "cultural differences" excuses, whether it comes to some mundane mind-boggling pettiness (like your attitudes to money, or appearances) or barbarisms like eating endangered species or executing mentally ill people.
The only proper response to your culture is to condemn it wholeheartedly and hope it will follow in the footsteps of, say, Aztecs, and end up on the dumpster of history.
Hmmmm....
So opposing an evil and immoral culture is "bigotry"? Damn all those anti-nazi bigots like Roosvelt and Churchill then.
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2009, 03:36:49 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 29, 2009, 06:00:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 09:45:50 AM
What the fuck. I'm not a bigot!
Quote
Well, yeah, whatever. your culture is a despicable, abominable collection of superstitions and outright barbarism. I frankly don't care anymore about your "cultural differences" excuses, whether it comes to some mundane mind-boggling pettiness (like your attitudes to money, or appearances) or barbarisms like eating endangered species or executing mentally ill people.
The only proper response to your culture is to condemn it wholeheartedly and hope it will follow in the footsteps of, say, Aztecs, and end up on the dumpster of history.
Hmmmm....
So opposing an evil and immoral culture is "bigotry"? Damn all those anti-nazi bigots like Roosvelt and Churchill then.
By your reasoning I'm no more a bigot than you.
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2009, 03:36:49 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 29, 2009, 06:00:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2009, 09:45:50 AM
What the fuck. I'm not a bigot!
Quote
Well, yeah, whatever. your culture is a despicable, abominable collection of superstitions and outright barbarism. I frankly don't care anymore about your "cultural differences" excuses, whether it comes to some mundane mind-boggling pettiness (like your attitudes to money, or appearances) or barbarisms like eating endangered species or executing mentally ill people.
The only proper response to your culture is to condemn it wholeheartedly and hope it will follow in the footsteps of, say, Aztecs, and end up on the dumpster of history.
Hmmmm....
So opposing an evil and immoral culture is "bigotry"? Damn all those anti-nazi bigots like Roosvelt and Churchill then.
And just yesterday you said you were so ignorant about China and its culture that you only heard of Cao Cao from a video game!
Your constant hysteria and vitriol is so tired. This rant once again reveals you to be not only the most profoundly bigoted and seething person on this board, but also among its most ignorant and judgmental.
:yeah:
One of us. One of us. One of us.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 30, 2009, 05:15:19 AM
And just yesterday you said you were so ignorant about China and its culture that you only heard of Cao Cao from a video game!
Your constant hysteria and vitriol is so tired. This rant once again reveals you to be not only the most profoundly bigoted and seething person on this board, but also among its most ignorant and judgmental.
So according to you, unless I know who Cao Cao was, I cannot, for example, oppose the China's communist regime?
Go fuck yourself. The fact that you had to go to East Asia to find a chick willing to fuck you despite your insecurities and psychoses does not make you some sort of a posterboy for multiculturalism or cultural exchange. Though I can see how a repressed, fucked up disgrace like you could feel at home in a culture that actually celebrates such failings.
:face:
Quote from: Slargos on December 30, 2009, 05:21:59 AM
:yeah:
One of us. One of us. One of us.
I'm beginning to see your point, buddy. :P
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 30, 2009, 05:15:19 AM
This rant once again reveals you to be not only the most profoundly bigoted and seething person on this board, but also among its most ignorant and judgmental.
:yeahright: Mart = greatest poster on Languish?
Quote from: The Brain on December 30, 2009, 05:40:40 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 30, 2009, 05:15:19 AM
This rant once again reveals you to be not only the most profoundly bigoted and seething person on this board, but also among its most ignorant and judgmental.
:yeahright: Mart = greatest poster on Languish?
Err.. was there ever any doubt? I'm the face of Languish.
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2009, 05:34:33 AM
So according to you, unless I know who Cao Cao was, I cannot, for example, oppose the China's communist regime?
Go fuck yourself. The fact that you had to go to East Asia to find a chick willing to fuck you despite your insecurities and psychoses does not make you some sort of a posterboy for multiculturalism or cultural exchange. Though I can see how a repressed, fucked up disgrace like you could feel at home in a culture that actually celebrates such failings.
Martinus: Never Knowingly Understated.
The John Lewis of drama queens :lol:
I don't do nuance. :P
Quote from: Jacob on December 30, 2009, 12:54:14 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 29, 2009, 07:49:23 PMYou know, when I hear things like this, I am afraid that China will defeat the West. The sheer sensibility of their worldview means that they are a mortal danger to cowardly, decadent Western society.
:lol:
So what would you chose in the end, if the Chinese prevail in this your proposed clash of cultures? Throw your lot in with them or go down with your defeated colours nailed to the mast of the West?
I'm with us. However, such a serious shock might be sufficient to turn us back into what we were, at least enough of us that we can roll back the advances that those triumphalists who thought that because we were secure on top, the the time had come for everyone to share in the spoils.
Quote from: Neil on December 29, 2009, 07:49:23 PM
You know, when I hear things like this, I am afraid that China will defeat the West. The sheer sensibility of their worldview means that they are a mortal danger to cowardly, decadent Western society.
Better they take over then the muzzies.
I think Neil underestimates the willingness of the West to resort to violence. Sure, we talk a lot about world peace and brotherly love, but if things get critical, I fully expect a counterstrike.
Quote from: Slargos on December 30, 2009, 05:21:59 AM
:yeah:
One of us. One of us. One of us.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F0%2F08%2FABBA_-_One_of_Us.jpg&hash=70d9304a9787d20d2e6b54e314a22398d97cbfcc)
:cool:
Quote from: Neil on December 30, 2009, 07:14:49 AM
I'm with us. However, such a serious shock might be sufficient to turn us back into what we were, at least enough of us that we can roll back the advances that those triumphalists who thought that because we were secure on top, the the time had come for everyone to share in the spoils.
Bahh! We can't even deal with the relatively minor annoyances that are the gaggle of medieval backwaters in the Middle-East and North Africa and you think we could take on China?!
But if I had to choose I'd live under chinese rule rather than under muslim obscurantism.
G.
Quote from: Slargos on December 30, 2009, 05:21:59 AM
:yeah:
One of us. One of us. One of us.
Neither you nor Mart are one of us*
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fregmedia.co.uk%2F2007%2F12%2F18%2Fsir_humphrey.jpg&hash=6644e268a913e28b4dd214749ed6ec34004c8f2b)
*By which I mean one of them. I'm not one of us either.
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2009, 05:34:33 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 30, 2009, 05:15:19 AM
And just yesterday you said you were so ignorant about China and its culture that you only heard of Cao Cao from a video game!
Your constant hysteria and vitriol is so tired. This rant once again reveals you to be not only the most profoundly bigoted and seething person on this board, but also among its most ignorant and judgmental.
So according to you, unless I know who Cao Cao was, I cannot, for example, oppose the China's communist regime?
Go fuck yourself. The fact that you had to go to East Asia to find a chick willing to fuck you despite your insecurities and psychoses does not make you some sort of a posterboy for multiculturalism or cultural exchange. Though I can see how a repressed, fucked up disgrace like you could feel at home in a culture that actually celebrates such failings.
Damn Mart, don't hold back, tell us what you really think.
Quote from: Grallon on December 30, 2009, 08:29:56 AM
Bahh! We can't even deal with the relatively minor annoyances that are the gaggle of medieval backwaters in the Middle-East and North Africa and you think we could take on China?!
Not as we are now. But the way we used to be, Muslims, the Chinese and Martinus would all be bleeding to death from headwounds.
QuoteBut if I had to choose I'd live under chinese rule rather than under muslim obscurantism.
They're pretty much the same, really.
Although I do agree with Marcin there seems to be a nose-in-the-air snobbiness about Asian cultures on this board, that doesn't stop him from being the biggest dousch on this board.
Apparently, it's all Britain's fault.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6970891.ece
:P
Quote from: Caliga on December 30, 2009, 08:28:38 AM
Quote from: Slargos on December 30, 2009, 05:21:59 AM
:yeah:
One of us. One of us. One of us.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F0%2F08%2FABBA_-_One_of_Us.jpg&hash=70d9304a9787d20d2e6b54e314a22398d97cbfcc)
:cool:
I don't picture Martinus crying in a lonely bed, wishing it was someone else instead.
Pretty much the only difference between Slargos and Marty is that Slargos has a gentler temper and Marty likes having sex with men.
They are both much better IRL than their internet personae :cool:
.............that may not be saying much :lol:
Quote from: Jacob on December 30, 2009, 02:43:52 PM
Pretty much the only difference between Slargos and Marty is that Slargos has a gentler temper and Marty likes having sex with men.
Well to be fair we don't know if Slargos doesn't like having sex with men.
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2009, 05:43:34 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 30, 2009, 05:40:40 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 30, 2009, 05:15:19 AM
This rant once again reveals you to be not only the most profoundly bigoted and seething person on this board, but also among its most ignorant and judgmental.
:yeahright: Mart = greatest poster on Languish?
Err.. was there ever any doubt? I'm the face of Languish.
Or at least the sole.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2009, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 30, 2009, 02:43:52 PM
Pretty much the only difference between Slargos and Marty is that Slargos has a gentler temper and Marty likes having sex with men.
Well to be fair we don't know if Slargos doesn't like having sex with men.
I was going to say.. :D
Hell, *I* don't even know that, so I don't see how you could.
Quote from: Drakken on December 30, 2009, 02:19:07 PM
I don't picture Martinus crying in a lonely bed, wishing it was someone else instead.
I do. :menace:
Quote from: Caliga on December 30, 2009, 04:56:51 PM
Quote from: Drakken on December 30, 2009, 02:19:07 PM
I don't picture Martinus crying in a lonely bed, wishing it was someone else instead.
I do. :menace:
So.
Do you spend a lot of time picturing faggots in their beds?
Quote from: Slargos on December 30, 2009, 04:58:36 PM
Do you spend a lot of time picturing faggots in their beds?
I don't have to answer your questions without my lawyer present, PIG. :mad:
Quote from: Caliga on December 30, 2009, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Slargos on December 30, 2009, 04:58:36 PM
Do you spend a lot of time picturing faggots in their beds?
I don't have to answer your questions without my lawyer present, PIG. :mad:
Oh, my question was largely rhetorical, and I think I've made my point already. :P
Slargos has made me laugh.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 30, 2009, 02:06:06 PM
Apparently, it's all Britain's fault.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6970891.ece
:P
This is why we can't legalize pot.
Quote from: Slargos on December 30, 2009, 04:24:23 PMI was going to say.. :D
Hell, *I* don't even know that, so I don't see how you could.
Alright, we'll amend it to "... Slargos is not on the record as liking having sex with men."
You know the only thing I remember about Slargos and women was that chicks with amputations dating site.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2009, 06:31:58 PM
This is why we can't legalize pot.
The problem should be attacked at the root: Anyone, of any age, who tests positive for marijuana should be executed, and mandatory tests should be conducted.
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2009, 05:34:33 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 30, 2009, 05:15:19 AM
And just yesterday you said you were so ignorant about China and its culture that you only heard of Cao Cao from a video game!
Your constant hysteria and vitriol is so tired. This rant once again reveals you to be not only the most profoundly bigoted and seething person on this board, but also among its most ignorant and judgmental.
So according to you, unless I know who Cao Cao was, I cannot, for example, oppose the China's communist regime?
Go fuck yourself. The fact that you had to go to East Asia to find a chick willing to fuck you despite your insecurities and psychoses does not make you some sort of a posterboy for multiculturalism or cultural exchange. Though I can see how a repressed, fucked up disgrace like you could feel at home in a culture that actually celebrates such failings.
What on earth are you talking about? :lol:
But anyway you just prove my point: shrill vitriol and ranting on subjects about which you are totally ignorant is your MO. :cool:
Quote from: Solmyr on December 30, 2009, 07:57:51 AM
I think Neil underestimates the willingness of the West to resort to violence. Sure, we talk a lot about world peace and brotherly love, but if things get critical, I fully expect a counterstrike.
I agree. What we have seen (and only within the last 50 years or so, and again it applies more to Europe than to the US) is the West's decreasing willingness to project our power globally in order to protect our global domination. I'm pretty sure that if Russians, Arabs or the Chinese were at our gates, though, Europeans wouldn't just roll over and die.
Besides, even the anti-war protesters, anarchists, alterglobalists etc. who oppose, say, the war in Iraq, are pretty violent in their protests, only they direct their violence inwardly, as they perceive it as more just - but if they had to defend their country it would be different, imo.
What the West lacks is not the willingness to employ violence but the fact that our culture (and here tip of a hat to Christians, especially Aquinas) emphasizes the "just war" concept - and we have been in a disagreement over what a just war constitutes in a post WW2 era (I think this is the last war that the overwhelming majority of Westerners would consider "just").
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 30, 2009, 02:45:02 PM
They are both much better IRL than their internet personae :cool:
.............that may not be saying much :lol:
I'm trying to set the expectations low. :P
Quote from: Martinus on December 31, 2009, 05:10:25 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on December 30, 2009, 07:57:51 AM
I think Neil underestimates the willingness of the West to resort to violence. Sure, we talk a lot about world peace and brotherly love, but if things get critical, I fully expect a counterstrike.
I agree. What we have seen (and only within the last 50 years or so, and again it applies more to Europe than to the US) is the West's decreasing willingness to project our power globally in order to protect our global domination. I'm pretty sure that if Russians, Arabs or the Chinese were at our gates, though, Europeans wouldn't just roll over and die.
Besides, even the anti-war protesters, anarchists, alterglobalists etc. who oppose, say, the war in Iraq, are pretty violent in their protests, only they direct their violence inwardly, as they perceive it as more just - but if they had to defend their country it would be different, imo.
What the West lacks is not the willingness to employ violence but the fact that our culture (and here tip of a hat to Christians, especially Aquinas) emphasizes the "just war" concept - and we have been in a disagreement over what a just war constitutes in a post WW2 era (I think this is the last war that the overwhelming majority of Westerners would consider "just").
"Just war"? War is hardly a trifle.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 30, 2009, 05:54:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2009, 05:34:33 AM
So according to you, unless I know who Cao Cao was, I cannot, for example, oppose the China's communist regime?
Go fuck yourself. The fact that you had to go to East Asia to find a chick willing to fuck you despite your insecurities and psychoses does not make you some sort of a posterboy for multiculturalism or cultural exchange. Though I can see how a repressed, fucked up disgrace like you could feel at home in a culture that actually celebrates such failings.
Martinus: Never Knowingly Understated.
:face:
Quote from: Martinus on December 31, 2009, 05:10:25 AM
What the West lacks is not the willingness to employ violence but the fact that our culture (and here tip of a hat to Christians, especially Aquinas) emphasizes the "just war" concept - and we have been in a disagreement over what a just war constitutes in a post WW2 era (I think this is the last war that the overwhelming majority of Westerners would consider "just").
Gulf War I, Korea. Afghanistan six years ago.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 01, 2010, 08:34:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 31, 2009, 05:10:25 AM
What the West lacks is not the willingness to employ violence but the fact that our culture (and here tip of a hat to Christians, especially Aquinas) emphasizes the "just war" concept - and we have been in a disagreement over what a just war constitutes in a post WW2 era (I think this is the last war that the overwhelming majority of Westerners would consider "just").
Gulf War I, Korea. Afghanistan six years ago.
Bosnia (1995), Kosovo, Sierra Leone.
Yi, Ark, which sides?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2010, 04:53:17 PM
Kosovo, eh.
In this country at least it had broad support.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2010, 05:33:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2010, 04:53:17 PM
Kosovo, eh.
In this country at least it had broad support.
Conservatives didn't like it here. They felt it was some kind of conspiracy or something.
Quote from: Warspite on January 02, 2010, 04:13:20 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 01, 2010, 08:34:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 31, 2009, 05:10:25 AM
What the West lacks is not the willingness to employ violence but the fact that our culture (and here tip of a hat to Christians, especially Aquinas) emphasizes the "just war" concept - and we have been in a disagreement over what a just war constitutes in a post WW2 era (I think this is the last war that the overwhelming majority of Westerners would consider "just").
Gulf War I, Korea. Afghanistan six years ago.
Bosnia (1995), Kosovo, Sierra Leone.
Uhm, I don't think you will have an agreement over Kosovo. Many people consider it unjust, especially the part which involved bombing the living shit out of a sovereign European country, so you can have a hideout for muslim mafia.
US was on the wrong side in Kosovo
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 02, 2010, 05:40:56 PM
US was on the wrong side in Kosovo
We might not have been then but we are now. Republic of Kosovo...what a joke.
America is always picking the side that promotes US world conquest.
Would you guys like some ball bearings?
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2010, 05:33:37 PM
In this country at least it had broad support.
The bar was set at overwhelming support.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on January 02, 2010, 05:40:56 PM
US was on the wrong side in Kosovo
Killing Serbs is never wrong, but helping Muslims kill Serbs is possibly worse. They should've been left to kill one-another.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2010, 06:53:58 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2010, 05:33:37 PM
In this country at least it had broad support.
The bar was set at overwhelming support.
Does it count as overwhelming support when only Harold Pinter opposes it?
Also I don't know if Korea counts by that measure.
Quote from: The Brain on January 02, 2010, 06:35:07 PM
America is always picking the side that promotes US world conquest.
Would you guys like some ball bearings?
You can't have a B61 bomb.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2010, 07:07:36 PM
Does it count as overwhelming support when only Harold Pinter opposes it?
Also I don't know if Korea counts by that measure.
Was there much debate of the justice of the Kosovo campaign?
I included Korea because it fits all the classic criteria for defense against aggression. Not really familiar with the philosophical debate on that one either, if there was one.
From wiki, about the Kosovo War:
QuoteThe legitimacy of NATO's bombing campaign in Kosovo has been the subject of much debate. NATO did not have the backing of the United Nations Security Council because the war was opposed by permanent members with ties to Yugoslavia, in particular Russia, who had threatened to veto any resolution authorizing force. NATO argued that their defiance of the Security Council was justified based on the claims of an "international humanitarian emergency". Criticism was also drawn by the fact that the NATO charter specifies that NATO is an organization created for defence of its members, but in this case it was used to attack a non-NATO country which was not directly threatening any NATO member. NATO claimed that instability in the Balkans was a direct threat to the security interests of NATO members, and military action was therefore justified by the NATO charter; however, the only NATO member country to which the instability was a direct threat was Greece.
Many on the left of Western politics saw the NATO campaign as U.S. aggression and imperialism, while critics on the right considered it irrelevant to their countries' national security interests. Veteran anti-war campaigners such as Noam Chomsky, Edward Said, Justin Raimondo, and Tariq Ali were prominent in opposing the campaign. However, in comparison with the anti-war protests against the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the campaign against the war in Kosovo aroused much less public support. The television pictures of refugees being driven out of Kosovo made a vivid and simple case for NATO's actions.
The personalities were also very different—the NATO nations were mostly led by centre-left and moderately liberal leaders, most prominently U.S. President Bill Clinton, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder and the Italian Prime Minister Massimo D'Alema. Anti-war protests were generally from the libertarian right, the far-left and Serbian émigrés, with many other left-wingers supporting the campaign on humanitarian grounds. The German participation in the operation was one of the reasons for Oskar Lafontaine's resignation from the post of Federal Minister of Finance and the chairman of the SPD.
There was, however, criticism from all parts of the political spectrum for the way that NATO conducted the campaign. NATO officials sought to portray it as a "clean war" using precision weapons. The U.S. Department of Defense claimed that, up to June 2, 99.6% of the 20,000 bombs and missiles used had hit their targets. However, the use of technologies such as depleted uranium ammunition and cluster bombs was highly controversial, as was the bombing of oil refineries and chemical plants, which led to accusations of "environmental warfare". The slow pace of progress during the war was also heavily criticised. Many believed that NATO should have mounted an all-out campaign from the start, rather than starting with a relatively small number of strikes and combat aircraft.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2010, 07:13:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2010, 07:07:36 PM
Does it count as overwhelming support when only Harold Pinter opposes it?
Also I don't know if Korea counts by that measure.
Was there much debate of the justice of the Kosovo campaign?
I included Korea because it fits all the classic criteria for defense against aggression. Not really familiar with the philosophical debate on that one either, if there was one.
There was by conservatives who wanted to end the war. In fact there was about WWI and WWII as well. There's never a war with overwhelming support.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 02, 2010, 07:43:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2010, 07:13:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2010, 07:07:36 PM
Does it count as overwhelming support when only Harold Pinter opposes it?
Also I don't know if Korea counts by that measure.
Was there much debate of the justice of the Kosovo campaign?
I included Korea because it fits all the classic criteria for defense against aggression. Not really familiar with the philosophical debate on that one either, if there was one.
There was by conservatives who wanted to end the war. In fact there was about WWI and WWII as well. There's never a war with overwhelming support.
I liked the asshole in congress who voted against war after Pearl Harbor. And by liked, I mean should have been lynched. Fucking cunt.
The chick was like a hardcore pacifist. Not defending her, but it wasn't because she had a crush on Tojo or Hitler or anything of that nature.
I think Kosovo was not very popular in Germany.
This was the cover of Titanic in March 1999.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd2.stern.de%2Fbilder%2Fstern_5%2Fkultur%2F2009%2F40%2F30_Jahre_Titanic%2F30_Jahre_Titanic_6_maxsize_735_490.jpg&hash=61ef7f40caeba4d6fb692c3c0f4ac4a585e6f06f)
"Even in war: a little bit of of fun must be had!"
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 02, 2010, 07:45:41 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 02, 2010, 07:43:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2010, 07:13:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2010, 07:07:36 PM
Does it count as overwhelming support when only Harold Pinter opposes it?
Also I don't know if Korea counts by that measure.
Was there much debate of the justice of the Kosovo campaign?
I included Korea because it fits all the classic criteria for defense against aggression. Not really familiar with the philosophical debate on that one either, if there was one.
There was by conservatives who wanted to end the war. In fact there was about WWI and WWII as well. There's never a war with overwhelming support.
I liked the asshole in congress who voted against war after Pearl Harbor. And by liked, I mean should have been lynched. Fucking cunt.
Maybe he wanted to point out that it was a little late to have a vote on war
after Pearl Harbor?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2010, 07:13:04 PM
Was there much debate of the justice of the Kosovo campaign?
Not that I remember. All the major political parties were on-board, Tony Blair was still enjoying his honeymoon so he had a lot of personal support as well. I don't remember any opposition except Pinter and Tony Benn.
QuoteI included Korea because it fits all the classic criteria for defense against aggression. Not really familiar with the philosophical debate on that one either, if there was one.
My understanding was that there was quite a lot of opposition to Korea and that it was an unpopular war :mellow:
Quote from: Razgovory on January 02, 2010, 07:43:08 PM
There was by conservatives who wanted to end the war. In fact there was about WWI and WWII as well. There's never a war with overwhelming support.
Of course there were. WWII had overwhelming support. So did Afganistan. Just because a few pathetic malcontents whine about it doesn't make the support any less overwhelming.
Quote from: Syt on January 03, 2010, 01:33:02 AM
I think Kosovo was not very popular in Germany.
Perhaps, but Germany isn't a real part of the West.
Quote from: Caliga on January 02, 2010, 10:29:08 PM
The chick was like a hardcore pacifist. Not defending her, but it wasn't because she had a crush on Tojo or Hitler or anything of that nature.
I'm sure she did.
The whacko left in the UK was against Kosovo because they had an undisguised hardon for the "socialism" of rump Yugoslavia. But so unpopular was the war in Germany that parliament authorised the first foreign land action of the Bundeswehr since 1945.