Are things as dire as Schenker suggests?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704013004574517210622936876.html
QuoteA NATO Without Turkey?
Ankara's Islamist government is turning away from the Western alliance
By DAVID SCHENKER
The European Union has long debated the merits of Turkish EU membership. But now, nearly a decade after Islamists took the reins of power in Ankara, the central question is no longer whether Turkey should be integrated into Europe's economic and political structure, but rather whether Turkey should remain a part of the Western defense structure.
Recent developments suggest that while Turkey's military leadership remains committed to the state's secular, Western orientation and the defining principles of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the civilian Islamist government led by the Justice and Development Party (AKP) seems to have different ideas. Ankara is increasingly pursuing illiberal policies at home, for instance by attacking independent media, while aligning itself with militant, anti-western Middle East regimes abroad.
The latest demonstration of Ankara's political shift was its cancellation last month of Israel's long-standing participation in NATO military exercises in Turkey. Even worse, on the same day Israel was disinvited, Turkey announced imminent military exercises with Syria, a member of the U.S. list of "State Sponsors of Terrorism." These developments came just weeks after Ankara and Damascus established a "senior strategic cooperation council." These developments could signal the beginning of the end of Turkey's close military and economic cooperation with the Jewish state.
Ankara is simultaneously moving closer to the mullocracy in Tehran, even though the Islamic Republic is undermining stability in Afghanistan and Iraq by providing insurgents in both countries with explosives that are killing NATO and U.S. soldiers. The Iranian regime is also threatening to annihilate Israel, the very state Turkey is now distancing itself from. And yet Turkey and Iran have signed several security cooperation agreements over the past few years, and just two months ago, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan hinted he would oppose sanctions against Iran, saying he "firmly believe[d] that the international community's concern over Iran's nuclear program should be eased." This past June, Turkish President Abdullah Gul was among the first to call Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to congratulate him on his fraudulent re-election.
Meanwhile at home, individual liberty and rule of law have gone by the wayside. The Islamist government—in an effort to silence critics—attempts to bankrupt the independent and secularist Turkish media through extra-legal tax fines. The AKP government has also targeted political opponents by arresting them on dubious charges of attempting to overthrow the government.
Ankara's dramatic policy transformation seems inconsistent with the fundamental values that underpin the alliance. NATO partners are bound by the principles articulated in the 1949 charter, which affirm member states' "desire to live in peace with all peoples and all governments...[a] determin[ation] to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilization of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law." Member states are also committed to "seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area."
As Ankara's politics shift, Turkey's willingness to take on politically difficult NATO missions could also diminish, bringing into question the commitment to "collective defense." While Turkey has deployed troops to the NATO mission in Afghanistan, it's unclear that Ankara would support NATO efforts to stem Russian pressure westward in Latvia or Lithuania. Judging from Turkey's equivocal position on Russia's 2008 invasion of Georgia, it seems unlikely that Turkey today would even consent to training missions in the Baltic States. Justifying his tilt toward Moscow, Mr. Erdogan said "we have an important trade volume [with Russia]. We would act in line with what Turkey's national interests require."
While Ankara's politics have changed, the military's pro-Western disposition reportedly has not. But over the past decade, the dynamics between the politicians and the general staff have been transformed. For better or worse, Western pressures have compelled the Turkish military to remain in the barracks, and refrain from interfering in political developments. Today, the Turkish military can do little but watch as the secular, democratic, pro-Western republic established by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in the early 1900s is undermined.
While it's still too early to write Turkey out of NATO, in the not so distant future, the alliance will reach a decision point. In 2014, NATO's next generation fighter plane, the Joint Strike Fighter, will be delivered. Given the direction of Turkish politics, serious questions must be asked about whether the Islamist government in Ankara can be trusted with the highly advanced technology.
It's time that NATO start thinking about a worst case scenario in Turkey. For even if the increasingly Islamist state remains a NATO partner, at best, it seems Turkey will be an unreliable partner. Since the 1930s, the country has been a model of modernization and moderation in the Middle East. But absent a remarkable turnaround, it would appear that the West is losing Turkey. Should this occur, it would constitute the most dramatic development in the region since the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran.
Mr. Schenker is director of the Program in Arab Politics at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
Next they will want you to have Thanksgiving without Turkey too.
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2009, 07:29:29 AM
Next they will want you to have Thanksgiving without Turkey too.
I'm not a fan of the bird, too dry.
USA should take Turkey as 51st State :)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2009, 07:40:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2009, 07:29:29 AM
Next they will want you to have Thanksgiving without Turkey too.
I'm not a fan of the bird, too dry.
You Mexicans just don't know how to cook it properly.
Quote from: Neil on November 08, 2009, 07:58:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2009, 07:40:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2009, 07:29:29 AM
Next they will want you to have Thanksgiving without Turkey too.
I'm not a fan of the bird, too dry.
You Mexicans just don't know how to cook it properly.
My Grandmother's English.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2009, 08:04:06 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 08, 2009, 07:58:50 AM
You Mexicans just don't know how to cook it properly.
My Grandmother's English.
English people have problems cooking too. Plus she allowed her blood to mix with Mexican blood.
Quote from: Neil on November 08, 2009, 08:12:53 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2009, 08:04:06 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 08, 2009, 07:58:50 AM
You Mexicans just don't know how to cook it properly.
My Grandmother's English.
English people have problems cooking too. Plus she allowed her blood to mix with Mexican blood.
Puerto Rico > Mexico
Also, my grandmother married an American soldier of French-Canadian descent.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2009, 08:17:19 AM
Puerto Rico = Mexico
FYP.
QuoteAlso, my grandmother married an American soldier of French-Canadian descent.
And then their child married a Mexican. Fail.
Fuck Europe.
That article was good for brief giggle.
I like the idea that Turkey is now an illiberal state. Unlike under the generals who kept them in NATO?
Quote from: Faeelin on November 08, 2009, 09:47:06 AM
I like the idea that Turkey is now an illiberal state. Unlike under the generals who kept them in NATO?
:lol:
QFT. Liberal and being in NATO are not synonumous. The idea that a Liberal Islamic Democracy would distance itself from its previously cozy relationship with Israel as the newly
democratically elected government is not a fan makes perfect sense.
The author also fails to mention that Turkey is, frankly, being pretty clever. They are helping to open up and develop Mid-Eastern markets, and are acting as a moderating and capital-friendly influence on the region.
A much better, less histrionically anti-Muslim article. From The Economist. (http://www.economist.com/world/middleeast-africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14753776&source=most_commented)
QuoteLooking east and south
Oct 29th 2009 | ISTANBUL
From The Economist print edition
Frustrated by European equivocation, Turkey is reversing years of antagonism with its Arab neighbours.
IT IS a thousand years since the Turks arrived in the Middle East, migrating from Central Asia to Anatolia. For half of that millennium they ruled much of the region. But when the Ottoman Empire fizzled out and the Turkish Republic was born in 1923, they all but sealed themselves off from their former dominions, turning instead to Europe and tightly embracing America in its cold war with the Soviet Union.
The Turks are now back in the Middle East, in the benign guise of traders and diplomats. The move is natural, considering proximity, the strength of the Turkish economy, the revival of Islamic feeling in Turkey after decades of enforced secularism, and frustration with the sluggishness of talks to join the European Union. Indeed, Turkey's Middle East offensive has taken on something of the scale and momentum of an invasion, albeit a peaceful one.
In the past seven years the value of Turkey's exports to the Middle East and north Africa has swollen nearly sevenfold to $31 billion in 2008. From cars to tableware, dried figs to television serials, Turkish products, unknown a decade ago, are now ubiquitous in markets from Algiers to Tehran. Already a vital conduit for sending energy from east to west, Turkey is set to grow in importance as more pipelines come on stream. The most notable is Nabucco, a proposed €7.9 billion ($11.7 billion) scheme to carry gas across Turkey from Azerbaijan and possibly Turkmenistan, Iran, Iraq and Egypt. A single Turkish construction firm, TAV, has just finished an airport terminal for Egypt's capital, Cairo, and is building others in Libya, Qatar, Tunisia and the United Arab Emirates. Turks have scooped up hundreds of infrastructure contracts in Iraqi Kurdistan, and invested in shopping malls, hotels and even schools.
These achievements are partly due to an energetic pursuit of trading privileges, such as Turkey's free-trade pacts with Egypt, Israel, Morocco and Tunisia. It is seeking a similar deal with the six-member Gulf Co-operation Council, which includes Saudi Arabia. Earlier this month, teams of Turkish ministers travelled to Baghdad and Damascus to sign a package of 48 co-operation deals with Iraq and 40 with Syria. Covering everything from tourism to counter-terrorism and joint military exercises, the deals could end decades of tension between Turkey and its former Ottoman provinces.
Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has just been warmly received in the Iranian capital, Tehran, a reflection of the realpolitik that has kept links open despite the Islamic Republic's international isolation. Turkey requires no visas for Iranians, and Mr Erdogan, who has stressed Iran's right to nuclear power for civil purposes, pointedly congratulated Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, after his disputed election win in June. Turkey only recently made an historic breakthrough in relations with another eastern neighbour, Armenia. If the parliaments of both countries endorse the move, diplomatic ties may be restored after a 16-year freeze.
This dogged diplomatic pragmatism has been ardently pursued by the foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, an ebullient professor of international relations who had long advised Mr Erdogan before his appointment in May. Mr Davutoglu, who in a book described the Middle East as "Turkey's strategic depth", has called for a policy of "zero problems with neighbours". Reflecting the mild, modernist Islamism of the Justice and Development party, known by its Turkish initials AK, which has ruled Turkey since 2002, the new policy seeks to use the soft power of trade, along with historical links, to project stability beyond Turkey's frontiers. This marks a distinct shift in worldview. In the past Turkey tended to see itself as an eastern bulwark of the NATO alliance, whereas its Middle Eastern neighbours were viewed as threats to be contained.
Whatever Mr Davutoglu's persuasive powers, this reorientation could not have happened without dramatic changes in Turkey. Reforms undertaken partly to meet demands for EU membership have shifted power from threat-obsessed generals to civilian institutions, and to a new, more self-consciously Muslim elite rooted in Anatolia rather than Istanbul, Turkey's Western-looking commercial and intellectual capital. The AK party has also reversed decades of official policy by trying to meet the demands of Turkey's large Kurdish minority (some 14m in a total population of 72m). The granting of more cultural and political rights, and the admission of past discrimination, have soothed tempers not only among Turkish Kurds, but among their ethnic kin in Iraq, Iran and Syria.
Yet a reason for the success of Turkey's kinder, gentler approach is that it takes place in the context of a regional power vacuum. Such relative Arab heavyweights as Egypt and Iraq no longer wield much clout. American influence has also dipped in the wake of its troubles in Iraq. Indeed, Turkey's biggest breakthrough in Arab public opinion came in 2003, when its parliament rejected an American request to open Turkish territory as a second front for the invasion of Iraq. Turkey did allow the use of an airbase to supply the war, but escaped the opprobrium heaped on America's Arab allies who grudgingly lent support to the toppling of Saddam Hussein.
Turkey has also been welcomed back because many Arabs see it as both a moderate counterweight to Iran and as a window to the West. Iraqi Shias, for instance, are still wary of Iranian meddling in Iraq, even though Iraq's main Shia parties have close relations with Iran. Iraq's Kurds, despite age-old tensions with Turkey, have also warmed their relations as trade has boomed and the looming departure of the Kurds' American protectors raises the spectre of isolation. The secular government of Syria, an ostensible ally of Iran, in fact shares little cultural affinity with its stridently Islamist rulers, compared with the AK party's businesslike, tie-wearing officials. Improved relations with Turkey, which now include visa-free travel, bring much-needed relief to Syria, isolated diplomatically and economically backward. In fact, so eager has Syria been to woo Turkey that in 2005 it scrapped a longstanding territorial claim to Hatay, a province granted to Turkey in 1939 by France, Syria's colonial master at the time.
Turkish officials, however, have been careful to explain that their renewed interest in the Muslim east does not mean a chill towards the West. Instead, they present Turkey as a useful bridge, a regional force for peace, and the model of a democracy that is compatible with Islam. Its Western allies have generally shared that view and have not opposed Turkey's eastward shift. Yet such benign indifference could change, if Turkey's prospects for joining the EU die, or if Turkey is seen as undermining attempts to pressure Iran.
Already, Turkey's gentle realignment has carried some costs, most obviously to its relations with Israel. These flourished into a full-blown strategic partnership in the 1990s, before the AK party's rise, when peace between Palestinians and Israelis seemed possible. Joint military exercises and Israeli arms sales brought the two countries' military establishments close, while trade and tourism expanded fast. Israel even offered to shield Turkey from lobbies in the American Congress that sought to punish Turkey for disputing the genocide of Armenians in Ottoman territory during the first world war.
The end of an affair?
But ties have frayed as Turkish public opinion, which now counts for more, has turned increasingly hostile to Israel. Mr Erdogan, a tough, streetwise politician, felt slighted last year when Israel attacked Gaza only days after he had met Israel's then prime minister, Ehud Olmert, who assured him that Turkish-brokered peace talks between Israel and Syria would resume. The bloodshed in Gaza outraged many Turks, who heartily praised Mr Erdogan when he stormed out of a debate with Israel's president, Shimon Peres, at Davos in Switzerland earlier this year.
The Turks were again angered in September when Israel denied Mr Davutoglu permission to cross into Gaza during a visit to Israel. Earlier this month Turkey, citing Israel's failure to deliver an order of military drone aircraft, abruptly cancelled joint air exercises. Israel, for its part, lodged a formal protest at the airing, on Turkish state television, of a serial depicting Israeli soldiers as brutal killers. Some Israeli officials say they detect signs of anti-Semitism that disqualify Turkey from mediating any longer between Syria and Israel.
Turkish officials respond that they have no intention of breaking off relations with Israel, and think they can still be a useful interlocutor with the Jewish state. But they remain indignant. "We might have lost leverage with Israel," says an AK party man. "But I'd rather be on the side of history, of what is right, of justice." One of Mr Erdogan's advisers puts Turkey's case more boldly, in a sign of its growing confidence as a regional leader. "We are conditioning relations with Israel on the progress of the conflict," he says. "This is what the West should do."
As long as there is a Black Sea, there will be a Turkey in NATO.
Jesus, when did the WSJ become that bad? That is one pathetic article.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 08, 2009, 11:46:51 AM
Jesus, when did the WSJ become that bad? That is one pathetic article.
TBH it looks like the editor was owed a favour by a partisan hack, and they needed some copy urgently before a deadline.
What nerve, Tim. The only thing bad about Mexico is the people that live there. But at least they're a free people. Your people are slaves. Slaves to the Spanish and slaves to America.
At least you're a happy, ignorant slave though.
And your homeland? Your island is nothing more than a oversized refueling port and test range. Thats all it ever was, and all it will ever be.
Don't try to flout your English heritage. You haven't got enough white blood to save you.
Quote from: Warspite on November 08, 2009, 12:23:54 PM
TBH it looks like the editor was owed a favour by a partisan hack, and they needed some copy urgently before a deadline.
I didn't realize we had pro- and anti-Turkish parties here. :huh:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2009, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: Warspite on November 08, 2009, 12:23:54 PM
TBH it looks like the editor was owed a favour by a partisan hack, and they needed some copy urgently before a deadline.
I didn't realize we had pro- and anti-Turkish parties here. :huh:
Anti-Turkish = Europeans.
Pro-Turkish = Everybody else.
The Euros soooooo love to mask their xenophobia behind stuff like economic issues.
Quote from: Jaron on November 08, 2009, 12:37:28 PM
What nerve, Tim. The only thing bad about Mexico is the people that live there. But at least they're a free people. Your people are slaves. Slaves to the Spanish and slaves to America.
At least you're a happy, ignorant slave though.
And your homeland? Your island is nothing more than a oversized refueling port and test range. Thats all it ever was, and all it will ever be.
Don't try to flout your English heritage. You haven't got enough white blood to save you.
:lmfao:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 08, 2009, 01:00:58 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2009, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: Warspite on November 08, 2009, 12:23:54 PM
TBH it looks like the editor was owed a favour by a partisan hack, and they needed some copy urgently before a deadline.
I didn't realize we had pro- and anti-Turkish parties here. :huh:
Anti-Turkish = Europeans.
Pro-Turkish = Everybody else.
The Euros soooooo love to mask their xenophobia behind stuff like economic issues.
You'd have more credibility if you weren't so reflexively anti-European.
Quote from: Warspite on November 08, 2009, 01:45:56 PM
You'd have more credibility if you weren't so reflexively anti-European.
Stop hating the turks and the joos!
Quote from: katmai on November 08, 2009, 01:50:25 PM
Quote from: Warspite on November 08, 2009, 01:45:56 PM
You'd have more credibility if you weren't so reflexively anti-European.
Stop hating the turks!
If the majority of Turks we got over here were not East Anatolian koran-thumping tribal goatherders we might do that.
Quote from: Warspite on November 08, 2009, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 08, 2009, 01:00:58 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2009, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: Warspite on November 08, 2009, 12:23:54 PM
TBH it looks like the editor was owed a favour by a partisan hack, and they needed some copy urgently before a deadline.
I didn't realize we had pro- and anti-Turkish parties here. :huh:
Anti-Turkish = Europeans.
Pro-Turkish = Everybody else.
The Euros soooooo love to mask their xenophobia behind stuff like economic issues.
You'd have more credibility if you weren't so reflexively anti-European.
You'd have more credibility if you weren't so European.
And stop hating Jews and brown people not from India.
Quote from: katmai on November 08, 2009, 01:50:25 PM
Quote from: Warspite on November 08, 2009, 01:45:56 PM
You'd have more credibility if you weren't so reflexively anti-European.
Stop hating the turks and the joos!
I love joos so much that I've even lived in Israel :P and I support Turkish entry into the EU. :bowler:
Quote from: Queequeg on November 08, 2009, 11:46:51 AM
Jesus, when did the WSJ become that bad? That is one pathetic article.
The op-ed pages have always been a haven for hansmeisterian dreck.
Interesting how the article makes much of Western pressure to keep the military in their barracks as an apparent contibutor to Turkey's supposed drift from the West and its growing "illiberalism"(!) Yet no mention is made of the steady barrage of insulting comments directed at the country from major leaders in Europe in connection with its moribund EU application. That might have just a little bit to do with the current government's eastern turn.
I agree, let's blame Europe. :)
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 08, 2009, 03:16:50 PM
Interesting how the article makes much of Western pressure to keep the military in their barracks as an apparent contibutor to Turkey's supposed drift from the West and its growing "illiberalism"(!) Yet no mention is made of the steady barrage of insulting comments directed at the country from major leaders in Europe in connection with its moribund EU application. That might have just a little bit to do with the current government's eastern turn.
Aye, yet another case of telling somebody what to do and how to do it; and being surprised that it neither gets done nor your instructions being followed.
Quote from: Viking on November 08, 2009, 03:26:34 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 08, 2009, 03:16:50 PM
Interesting how the article makes much of Western pressure to keep the military in their barracks as an apparent contibutor to Turkey's supposed drift from the West and its growing "illiberalism"(!) Yet no mention is made of the steady barrage of insulting comments directed at the country from major leaders in Europe in connection with its moribund EU application. That might have just a little bit to do with the current government's eastern turn.
Aye, yet another case of telling somebody what to do and how to do it; and being surprised that it neither gets done nor your instructions being followed.
Much like US telling us to let them in? :P
The Turks have already been lost, and it's not just about Europe. I think too few people realize just how deeply hated the United States is in Turkey (and no, Obama didn't make much of a difference). Sure, the moderate government will go through the motions of being an ally for a little while longer, but at it's core Turkey is definitely not a friendly country.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 05:52:08 PM
The Turks have already been lost, and it's not just about Europe. I think too few people realize just how deeply hated the United States is in Turkey (and no, Obama didn't make much of a difference). Sure, the moderate government will go through the motions of being an ally for a little while longer, but at it's core Turkey is definitely not a friendly country.
But you should remember its unfriendly as in France. Not unfriendly as in Iran.
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2009, 05:55:25 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 05:52:08 PM
The Turks have already been lost, and it's not just about Europe. I think too few people realize just how deeply hated the United States is in Turkey (and no, Obama didn't make much of a difference). Sure, the moderate government will go through the motions of being an ally for a little while longer, but at it's core Turkey is definitely not a friendly country.
But you should remember its unfriendly as in France. Not unfriendly as in Iran.
Really?
http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=1&mode=chart
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 05:56:50 PM
Really?
http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=1&mode=chart
And?
What did we do to Argentina back in the day to make them hate us so? :(
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2009, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 05:56:50 PM
Really?
http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=1&mode=chart
And?
Don't respond to me if you've got nothing to add.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2009, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 05:56:50 PM
Really?
http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=1&mode=chart
And?
Don't respond to me if you've got nothing to add.
You just did that though. You said really and posted a link that shows nothing.
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2009, 06:04:53 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2009, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 05:56:50 PM
Really?
http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=1&mode=chart
And?
Don't respond to me if you've got nothing to add.
You just did that though. You said really and posted a link that shows nothing.
What would show "something"?
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 06:10:23 PM
What would show "something"?
I don't think any one thing could.
Having a negative view of the US can range from wanting to wipe the US off the face of the earth to making snide comments about it occasionally. If someone came up to me on the street and asked 'US- Yey or ney', I may sometimes fall on the negative side of the fence.
Western Turkey is a remarkably modern, civilized, secular place. I have little doubt that they are far more towards my kind of negativity than the negativity of the Iranian regime.
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2009, 06:04:53 PM
You just did that though. You said really and posted a link that shows nothing.
France 75% vs. Turkey 14% shows that your analogy was complete bollocks.
Quote from: Fate on November 08, 2009, 06:01:27 PM
What did we do to Argentina back in the day to make them hate us so? :(
We didn't nuke London during the Malvinas War.
I'm surprised the French like us more then the British. Also the Nigerians love us for some unknown reason. Must be those scams. Odd that India likes us better then Canada.
Canadian nationalism is based on anti-Americanism.
France is mildly surprising; Lebanon at 55% even moreso. Though I suppose it could be nearly unanimous among the Marionites.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2009, 10:10:31 PM
France is mildly surprising; Lebanon at 55% even moreso. Though I suppose it could be nearly unanimous among the Marionites.
I think it really depends on how many of the diaspora are at home. It probably is 10% more positive during the summer vacation.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 05:56:50 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2009, 05:55:25 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on November 08, 2009, 05:52:08 PM
The Turks have already been lost, and it's not just about Europe. I think too few people realize just how deeply hated the United States is in Turkey (and no, Obama didn't make much of a difference). Sure, the moderate government will go through the motions of being an ally for a little while longer, but at it's core Turkey is definitely not a friendly country.
But you should remember its unfriendly as in France. Not unfriendly as in Iran.
Really?
http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=1&mode=chart
The Turks seems to hate everyone, though. From the same website, their opinions of Russia, China, and the EU are almost as low.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on November 08, 2009, 10:33:51 PM
The Turks seems to hate everyone, though. From the same website, their opinions of Russia, China, and the EU are almost as low.
Jepp, and everybody (except the americans) seem to reciprocate.
Quote from: Viking on November 08, 2009, 10:36:16 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on November 08, 2009, 10:33:51 PM
The Turks seems to hate everyone, though. From the same website, their opinions of Russia, China, and the EU are almost as low.
Jepp, and everybody (except the americans) seem to reciprocate.
Well, it's kinda understandable. Most Europeans' first hand experience with Turks is with Turkish immigrants. In Vienna about 20+% of inhabitants are first or second generation imigrants. Plenty Ex-Yugos, East Europeans, some Blacks, Indians, East Asians and many Turks. All groups - though having distinct communities - see learning German as a key to success and acceptance ... except one group where third generation kids still struggle to learn German when they enter kindergarten or school ... guess which one.
Hint: it's the same group where more than 50% say they're superior to all others because they are followers of Islam and that Islamic views should enter Austrian law.
Further hint:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.review.de%2Fimages%2Fflags%2Fflag_turkey.gif&hash=3cf2706f2cb2ca006e0c6e5877dd2f9e57750af7)
Tellingly, colleagues just returned from a business trip to Istanbul. They were surprised to (seemingly) see *less* women and girls with headscarves than in Vienna.
That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:12:36 PM
That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.
Why? Why would they do live in a city full of degenerate westerners they despise? Why don't they immigrate to a Muslim country?
I just do not get it. It makes me overjoyed with our immigrants.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:12:36 PM
That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.
That's what I'm getting at; I get the same feedback. The large majority of Turks coming to Germany or Austria are not from the Western parts of Turkey (which are on par with the rest of the geographical area) but from the poor/conservative East who migrate for economic reasons - many of them of course called by the respective European governments when workers were scarce.
You'll most likely notice immediately when you meet a West Turk, because they'll be much more likely to speak German, have a decent job and/or uni degree and will look down on the East Turks (who live by the bushel in my district).
I guess they are there for the money :huh:
Syt might be able to give us more info.
All of these immigrations have a different background and story. Turkish immigrants to Britain are not generally regarded as a problem. But we do have a problem with our Pakistanis. Maybe we are getting better Turks than the Germans and Austrians :D I do know that most of our Pakistani immigrants come from a backward and conservative area in Pakistan, which is probably the main problem rather than their religion.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 08, 2009, 08:58:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2009, 06:04:53 PM
You just did that though. You said really and posted a link that shows nothing.
France 75% vs. Turkey 14% shows that your analogy was complete bollocks.
Not really.
French hate of the US is well known from the Iraq war days. Too many morons though think the only form of hate is outright 'kill kill kill'
:facepalm: On so many different levels.
the best of both worlds would of course be a turkey without turkey. If only the Asia Minor Greeks hadn't turned traitor but instead had opted to fight their barbaric oppressors.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:22:55 PM
I guess they are there for the money :huh:
Syt might be able to give us more info.
A lot of them stem from guest workers from way back when. They worked, stayed here, brought (extended) family over. Many of those were called for work in production, and come from por areas, often not having visited a school in Turkey. Later there were political refugees (mostly Kurds). In 2000 there were ca. 2 million Turks in Germany, 750,000 of those born there. In 2008 the number was down to 1.7 million, but about 300,000 had been naturalized in the meantime. Since 2000, kids of Turkish parents automatically get German citizenship. In 2008, 700,000 naturalized Turks lived in Germany.
30% of Turks or those with Turksih roots have no school degree, only 14% have Abitur (A Level?). According to official statistics, over 40% of Turks in Berlin are unemployed. Over 40% of Turks or naturalized Turks are threatened by poverty.
Hell, even the Turkish Prime Minister, when visiting Germany in 2008 and speaking to a Turkish/Turk-German audience pointed out that while he rejected assimilation of the Turks, he urged them to learn the local language if they wanted to make any headway.
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 01:00:41 PM
Turkish/Turk-German audience pointed out that while he rejected assimilation of the Turks
Well it is sort of hard to stay apart from the German culture and know German. Eventually you will become a German sorta Turk.
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 01:05:38 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 01:00:41 PM
Turkish/Turk-German audience pointed out that while he rejected assimilation of the Turks
Well it is sort of hard to stay apart from the German culture and know German. Eventually you will become a German sorta Turk.
He probably meant more extreme 'assimilation' in the sense of being forced to reject your heritage, I would imagine.
Quote from: Warspite on November 09, 2009, 01:28:34 PM
He probably meant more extreme 'assimilation' in the sense of being forced to reject your heritage, I would imagine.
Yeah I have actually never heard of that sort of assimilation. That sounds like a scare tactic, some sort of straw man to attack. OMG! Don't give an inch or you will lose your Turkishness foreva!
They will simply be Germans who have Turkish ancestory and cultural traditions who will feel very Turkish...until they go back to Turkey someday and realize how very German they actually are also. Like most "assimilated" immigrants.
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 01:00:41 PM
Hell, even the Turkish Prime Minister, when visiting Germany in 2008 and speaking to a Turkish/Turk-German audience pointed out that while he rejected assimilation of the Turks, he urged them to learn the local language if they wanted to make any headway.
Assimilation is a much harder process than is generally presumed. We in America had a great amount of difficulty assimilating radicalized 48ers, even though they went on to be one of the most crucial components of the US Army in the Civil War. Same goes with the Irish, the Italians, even the Jews.
I don't doubt that things will improve, with time. Just remember that it is not that uncommon for second and third generation immigrants to identify with their supposed homeland far more than would seem logical. But it tends to work out in the end.
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 01:53:31 PM
Quote from: Warspite on November 09, 2009, 01:28:34 PM
He probably meant more extreme 'assimilation' in the sense of being forced to reject your heritage, I would imagine.
Yeah I have actually never heard of that sort of assimilation.
The French model is criticised for veering too far in that direction. And on the extreme end, you have historical examples like Canadian and Australian residential schools.
Quote from: Viking on November 08, 2009, 10:36:16 PM
Jepp, and everybody (except the americans) seem to reciprocate.
Turkey is a weird place.
The Turks were the best and only Sword of Islam for maybe 600 years, and were responsible for turning the tide against Europe and the expansion into India and beyond. Thus they get a bad reputation in most of Europe, as they attempted to spread Islam and the Ottoman state was basically plunder and slave dependent. They also get a bad reputation in the Islamic World, as the Turks have ruled the Arab world since the early Seljuks. The Turkish Republic also has a really nasty racist, nationalist streak that predates Attaturk, alienating a lot of people with the denial of the Armenian genocide and the invasion of Cyprus. They are also alternatively fawning towards Central Asian Turkic peoples, who view them (correctly) as far more Mediterranean than Turkic. Frankly, I don't think Turkey has many friends besides Albania and the Muslim bits of Bosnia. It is a bit like Russia in that way, I guess, only Russia is a bit smarter and more pragmatic in its insanity.
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 01:53:31 PM
Quote from: Warspite on November 09, 2009, 01:28:34 PM
He probably meant more extreme 'assimilation' in the sense of being forced to reject your heritage, I would imagine.
Yeah I have actually never heard of that sort of assimilation. That sounds like a scare tactic, some sort of straw man to attack. OMG! Don't give an inch or you will lose your Turkishness foreva!
They will simply be Germans who have Turkish ancestory and cultural traditions who will feel very Turkish...until they go back to Turkey someday and realize how very German they actually are also. Like most "assimilated" immigrants.
It's a fear I've heard of amongst hispanics. I suppose it's valid since I don't know German or have anything resembling German culture.
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 12:14:01 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:12:36 PM
That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.
Why? Why would they do live in a city full of degenerate westerners they despise? Why don't they immigrate to a Muslim country?
I just do not get it. It makes me overjoyed with our immigrants.
Monies. I think it's common knowledge that most immigrants are from poor people from rural areas. If you're a comfortable middle class Istambulite, why would you ever want to emigrate? It's certainly true in case of Poland, both with the recent British Isles wave as well as with Polish-Americans (which is why they're so often an embarrassment)
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 12:14:01 PM
Why? Why would they do live in a city full of degenerate westerners they despise? Why don't they immigrate to a Muslim country?
Muslim countries are poor, and don't have hefty social welfare programs.
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 01:53:31 PM
They will simply be Germans who have Turkish ancestory and cultural traditions who will feel very Turkish...until they go back to Turkey someday and realize how very German they actually are also. Like most "assimilated" immigrants.
Apparently such a situation is what drove the leader of the cell that carried out of the Madrid attacks to become a Jihadi. He was fairly integrated here, studied for his doctorate on a Spanish scholarship, had a Spanish girlfriend and the like. Then one day he took a trip back home to Tunis and found out he was no longer considered one of them. So he decided to kill a couple hundred people to prove he was.
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 12:19:35 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:12:36 PM
That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.
That's what I'm getting at; I get the same feedback. The large majority of Turks coming to Germany or Austria are not from the Western parts of Turkey (which are on par with the rest of the geographical area) but from the poor/conservative East who migrate for economic reasons - many of them of course called by the respective European governments when workers were scarce.
You'll most likely notice immediately when you meet a West Turk, because they'll be much more likely to speak German, have a decent job and/or uni degree and will look down on the East Turks (who live by the bushel in my district).
I know this Turkish chick from Istanbul. Hates the eastern part of the country, but largely because that's where Kurdish people live.
Also, she denied the Armenian genocide (it was "self-defense"). In class. No word yet on whether the Holocaust occurred.
Obviously, my opinion of Turkey went down several points after meeting her.
Tell her her mustache is thin and unvirile. That's particularly insulting in the Middle East.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 10, 2009, 12:11:13 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 12:19:35 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:12:36 PM
That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.
That's what I'm getting at; I get the same feedback. The large majority of Turks coming to Germany or Austria are not from the Western parts of Turkey (which are on par with the rest of the geographical area) but from the poor/conservative East who migrate for economic reasons - many of them of course called by the respective European governments when workers were scarce.
You'll most likely notice immediately when you meet a West Turk, because they'll be much more likely to speak German, have a decent job and/or uni degree and will look down on the East Turks (who live by the bushel in my district).
I know this Turkish chick from Istanbul. Hates the eastern part of the country, but largely because that's where Kurdish people live.
Also, she denied the Armenian genocide (it was "self-defense"). In class. No word yet on whether the Holocaust occurred.
Obviously, my opinion of Turkey went down several points after meeting her.
Hot or not?
Is she a belly dancer?
Quote from: Iormlund on November 09, 2009, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 01:53:31 PM
They will simply be Germans who have Turkish ancestory and cultural traditions who will feel very Turkish...until they go back to Turkey someday and realize how very German they actually are also. Like most "assimilated" immigrants.
Apparently such a situation is what drove the leader of the cell that carried out of the Madrid attacks to become a Jihadi. He was fairly integrated here, studied for his doctorate on a Spanish scholarship, had a Spanish girlfriend and the like. Then one day he took a trip back home to Tunis and found out he was no longer considered one of them. So he decided to kill a couple hundred people to prove he was.
Interesting. I've noticed a similar - but less extreme - phenomenon with the Croatian diaspora. Some of them go back home and get a bit insecure about being considered Canadian, American or Australian before Croatian by the natives.
So then you find these people in the diaspora have the most extreme positions regarding domestic issues and what constitutes a 'true' Croat, and so on.
This can be perversely amusing given that they don't have to deal with the consequences of their views.
Quote from: Warspite on November 10, 2009, 06:41:37 AMInteresting. I've noticed a similar - but less extreme - phenomenon with the Croatian diaspora. Some of them go back home and get a bit insecure about being considered Canadian, American or Australian before Croatian by the natives.
So then you find these people in the diaspora have the most extreme positions regarding domestic issues and what constitutes a 'true' Croat, and so on.
This can be perversely amusing given that they don't have to deal with the consequences of their views.
Converts (in this scenario, people who "convert back" to their home country-ness) are always the worst kind in that sense. And we have examples of that not that faraway. For instance in P'dox there is (or was, as I haven't seen him in a looooooong time) this American guy with Irish roots that is the most stick up and obnoxious defender of Irish stuff in the forum, even more than the real Irish. Or Drakken with his Swedish-ness. Maybe he can give us some input on that feeling.
Oh God, yes I remember that Americo-Irish guy.
Quote from: The Larch on November 10, 2009, 06:51:16 AM
For instance in P'dox there is (or was, as I haven't seen him in a looooooong time) this American guy with Irish roots that is the most stick up and obnoxious defender of Irish stuff in the forum, even more than the real Irish.
I think CdM is banned on P'dox.
Quote from: Syt on November 10, 2009, 07:17:41 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 10, 2009, 06:51:16 AM
For instance in P'dox there is (or was, as I haven't seen him in a looooooong time) this American guy with Irish roots that is the most stick up and obnoxious defender of Irish stuff in the forum, even more than the real Irish.
I think CdM is banned on P'dox.
I meant Brian Boruma, CdM's long lost hardcore Republican twin. :P
Quote from: Warspite on November 10, 2009, 07:13:18 AM
Oh God, yes I remember that Americo-Irish guy.
Truly a charming presence in any EU debate. :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on November 10, 2009, 06:51:16 AM
Quote from: Warspite on November 10, 2009, 06:41:37 AMInteresting. I've noticed a similar - but less extreme - phenomenon with the Croatian diaspora. Some of them go back home and get a bit insecure about being considered Canadian, American or Australian before Croatian by the natives.
So then you find these people in the diaspora have the most extreme positions regarding domestic issues and what constitutes a 'true' Croat, and so on.
This can be perversely amusing given that they don't have to deal with the consequences of their views.
Converts (in this scenario, people who "convert back" to their home country-ness) are always the worst kind in that sense. And we have examples of that not that faraway. For instance in P'dox there is (or was, as I haven't seen him in a looooooong time) this American guy with Irish roots that is the most stick up and obnoxious defender of Irish stuff in the forum, even more than the real Irish. Or Drakken with his Swedish-ness. Maybe he can give us some input on that feeling.
hmm, will we get in the future: Plastic Turks? Widely hated by real Turks.
Quote from: Tyr on November 10, 2009, 08:32:42 AM
hmm, will we get in the future: Plastic Turks? Widely hated by real Turks.
I'd be happy to exchange Plastic Turks for the Plastic Ono Band if you'd like. :)
Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2009, 07:11:52 PM
It's a fear I've heard of amongst hispanics.
It's baseless and I have in fact heard the opposite from Latinos for decades. They claim, quit accurately, that there is no contradiction about being a good Mexican/Dominican/Colombian and American at the same time.
This is a scare tactic used by anti-western forces among these immigrants to keep them separate and impoverished and frankly it is ridiculous.
Quote from: Iormlund on November 09, 2009, 10:21:50 PM
Apparently such a situation is what drove the leader of the cell that carried out of the Madrid attacks to become a Jihadi. He was fairly integrated here, studied for his doctorate on a Spanish scholarship, had a Spanish girlfriend and the like. Then one day he took a trip back home to Tunis and found out he was no longer considered one of them. So he decided to kill a couple hundred people to prove he was.
Well it is what happens when you move abroad. If you want to remain a 100% card carrying pure Tunisian, it is best to stay in Tunisia.
But that is as ridiculous as suggesting you will become a 100% card carrying pure German. You become something new a Turkish German and that is how assimilation works. Immigration fails when it becomes a colonial effort of building a "pure" Turkey in Dusseldorf somewhere. That is merely an intermediate step.
Quote from: Sahib on November 09, 2009, 07:27:04 PM
Monies. I think it's common knowledge that most immigrants are from poor people from rural areas.
Um...Malaysia, Indonesia, the oil rich Arab nations? It is not like Europe is known for its tons of jobs to be had anyway.
I don't know much about Malaysia, but Indonesia has high unemployment and the conditions in the Gulf states for foreign (especially not white) workers are apparently terrible.
Quote from: Iormlund on November 10, 2009, 10:50:53 AM
I don't know much about Malaysia, but Indonesia has high unemployment and the conditions in the Gulf states for foreign (especially not white) workers are apparently terrible.
the are effectively terrible: on slave-labour level
Quote from: Valmy on November 10, 2009, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2009, 07:11:52 PM
It's a fear I've heard of amongst hispanics.
It's baseless and I have in fact heard the opposite from Latinos for decades. They claim, quit accurately, that there is no contradiction about being a good Mexican/Dominican/Colombian and American at the same time.
This is a scare tactic used by anti-western forces among these immigrants to keep them separate and impoverished and frankly it is ridiculous.
Can you though? My German ancestors came here 150 years ago. I know no German, and don't particularly identify with the Germans. The only indicators of German ancestry is that I have a German last name and a Catholic Faith. I don't even look particularly German. As CdM says I look like a Jewish serial killer.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 10, 2009, 12:06:51 PM
Can you though? My German ancestors came here 150 years ago. I know no German, and don't particularly identify with the Germans. The only indicators of German ancestry is that I have a German last name and a Catholic Faith. I don't even look particularly German. As CdM says I look like a Jewish serial killer.
Well that is after 150 years and after America has already absorbed lots of German culture.
I'd say a big part of midwestern US culture is derived from German culture. It may not look much like Germany today, but I doubt Germany today looks all that much like 1848 Germany either.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 10, 2009, 12:06:51 PM
Can you though? My German ancestors came here 150 years ago. I know no German, and don't particularly identify with the Germans. The only indicators of German ancestry is that I have a German last name and a Catholic Faith. I don't even look particularly German. As CdM says I look like a Jewish serial killer.
You look Germanic to me. The stereotypical Jewish guy would be skinny with curly hair and a hooked nose.
Quote from: Valmy on November 10, 2009, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2009, 07:11:52 PM
It's a fear I've heard of amongst hispanics.
It's baseless and I have in fact heard the opposite from Latinos for decades. They claim, quit accurately, that there is no contradiction about being a good Mexican/Dominican/Colombian and American at the same time.
Yet I've been told I can't possible be a "real Ukrainian"...
Quote from: Barrister on November 10, 2009, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 10, 2009, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2009, 07:11:52 PM
It's a fear I've heard of amongst hispanics.
It's baseless and I have in fact heard the opposite from Latinos for decades. They claim, quit accurately, that there is no contradiction about being a good Mexican/Dominican/Colombian and American at the same time.
Yet I've been told I can't possible be a "real Ukrainian"...
yo soy pocho!
Prurient article (http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/portents) in TNR. Very interesting. More young Algerian-French women in Bikinis= :yeah:
Quote from: Barrister on November 10, 2009, 12:23:38 PM
Yet I've been told I can't possible be a "real Ukrainian"...
You're the most Canadian person I know. :P
Quote from: Queequeg on November 10, 2009, 02:52:52 PM
Prurient article (http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/portents) in TNR. Very interesting. More young Algerian-French women in Bikinis= :yeah:
How would going back to Christianity help at all? We're confronted with a backward culture in our midst and the correct response is becoming more like them? I don't get it. :unsure:
Anyway, Europe will never be Muslim. Before that happens the ethnic cleansing will start. It is easy to be tolerant when you're safe, but when a certain line is crossed even your average ball of light will turn into Slargos.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 10, 2009, 03:25:34 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 10, 2009, 12:11:13 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 12:19:35 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:12:36 PM
That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.
That's what I'm getting at; I get the same feedback. The large majority of Turks coming to Germany or Austria are not from the Western parts of Turkey (which are on par with the rest of the geographical area) but from the poor/conservative East who migrate for economic reasons - many of them of course called by the respective European governments when workers were scarce.
You'll most likely notice immediately when you meet a West Turk, because they'll be much more likely to speak German, have a decent job and/or uni degree and will look down on the East Turks (who live by the bushel in my district).
I know this Turkish chick from Istanbul. Hates the eastern part of the country, but largely because that's where Kurdish people live.
Also, she denied the Armenian genocide (it was "self-defense"). In class. No word yet on whether the Holocaust occurred.
Obviously, my opinion of Turkey went down several points after meeting her.
Hot or not?
Not very. Fivish, or perhaps a bit less. I'd be able to stomach the celebration of marching Armenian families into the desert much easier with a helping of wanting to fuck her.
I've had a very well educated, Canadian-born Turkish friend of mine argue about the "genocide" definition.
I think this comes partially from the equation with the Holocaust; Armenians killed a lot more Turks than the Jews ever did Germans. But that said, I think the Armenian Genocide is actually a much more typical Genocide than the Holocaust; the Serbs had plenty of reasons to ethnically cleanse Bosnia, the Turks plenty of reasons to ethically cleanse the Ottoman Empire, but the Germans never had anything but paranoid fantasy behind the Holocaust. And the Germans were a lot more competent than the Turks.
That's the argument I use these days, though equating Turks with Serbs has its....not so delicate points, so Hutus and Tutsis is smarter.
Quote from: Iormlund on November 10, 2009, 03:30:11 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 10, 2009, 02:52:52 PM
Prurient article (http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/portents) in TNR. Very interesting. More young Algerian-French women in Bikinis= :yeah:
How would going back to Christianity help at all? We're confronted with a backward culture in our midst and the correct response is becoming more like them? I don't get it. :unsure:
Anyway, Europe will never be Muslim. Before that happens the ethnic cleansing will start. It is easy to be tolerant when you're safe, but when a certain line is crossed even your average ball of light will turn into Slargos.
Bah, the article is your average 'OMG Yurop will be preaching towards Mecca in X years' piece of the week, just slightly disguised.
But you are right, the moment Muslim immigration became a serious problem (and no, they aren't now) the backlash would be swift. And it wouldn't take anything nasty like ethnic cleansing. Just imposing immigration quotas, American style, would put a swift, and quite painless end to it.
But the real mistake in all those articles is the implicit or explicit equivalence immigrant = Muslim. Just to mention one example, in Spain at least 80% of them aren't. Actually we have received more Romanians (some 750,000) than Muslims!
Quote from: Alatriste on November 11, 2009, 02:32:49 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on November 10, 2009, 03:30:11 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 10, 2009, 02:52:52 PM
Prurient article (http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/portents) in TNR. Very interesting. More young Algerian-French women in Bikinis= :yeah:
How would going back to Christianity help at all? We're confronted with a backward culture in our midst and the correct response is becoming more like them? I don't get it. :unsure:
Anyway, Europe will never be Muslim. Before that happens the ethnic cleansing will start. It is easy to be tolerant when you're safe, but when a certain line is crossed even your average ball of light will turn into Slargos.
Bah, the article is your average 'OMG Yurop will be preaching towards Mecca in X years' piece of the week, just slightly disguised.
But you are right, the moment Muslim immigration became a serious problem (and no, they aren't now) the backlash would be swift. And it wouldn't take anything nasty like ethnic cleansing. Just imposing immigration quotas, American style, would put a swift, and quite painless end to it.
But the real mistake in all those articles is the implicit or explicit equivalence immigrant = Muslim. Just to mention one example, in Spain at least 80% of them aren't. Actually we have received more Romanians (some 750,000) than Muslims!
Which is probably worse; at least Turks and Arabs have awesome cuisine.
Quote from: Barrister on November 10, 2009, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 10, 2009, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2009, 07:11:52 PM
It's a fear I've heard of amongst hispanics.
It's baseless and I have in fact heard the opposite from Latinos for decades. They claim, quit accurately, that there is no contradiction about being a good Mexican/Dominican/Colombian and American at the same time.
Yet I've been told I can't possible be a "real Ukrainian"...
I have met some typical Ukrainians, and you couldn't be further away from them. Take this as a compliment: you will never be a real Ukrainian
Quote from: Tamas on November 11, 2009, 03:09:34 AM
Quote from: Barrister on November 10, 2009, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 10, 2009, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 09, 2009, 07:11:52 PM
It's a fear I've heard of amongst hispanics.
It's baseless and I have in fact heard the opposite from Latinos for decades. They claim, quit accurately, that there is no contradiction about being a good Mexican/Dominican/Colombian and American at the same time.
Yet I've been told I can't possible be a "real Ukrainian"...
I have met some typical Ukrainians, and you couldn't be further away from them. Take this as a compliment: you will never be a real Ukrainian
And yet I don't... :(
Although the fact that someone can easily be described as a Ukrainian, and not a form of Russian, is a small solace to me...
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 11, 2009, 02:57:24 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on November 11, 2009, 02:32:49 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on November 10, 2009, 03:30:11 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 10, 2009, 02:52:52 PM
Prurient article (http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/portents) in TNR. Very interesting. More young Algerian-French women in Bikinis= :yeah:
How would going back to Christianity help at all? We're confronted with a backward culture in our midst and the correct response is becoming more like them? I don't get it. :unsure:
Anyway, Europe will never be Muslim. Before that happens the ethnic cleansing will start. It is easy to be tolerant when you're safe, but when a certain line is crossed even your average ball of light will turn into Slargos.
Bah, the article is your average 'OMG Yurop will be preaching towards Mecca in X years' piece of the week, just slightly disguised.
But you are right, the moment Muslim immigration became a serious problem (and no, they aren't now) the backlash would be swift. And it wouldn't take anything nasty like ethnic cleansing. Just imposing immigration quotas, American style, would put a swift, and quite painless end to it.
But the real mistake in all those articles is the implicit or explicit equivalence immigrant = Muslim. Just to mention one example, in Spain at least 80% of them aren't. Actually we have received more Romanians (some 750,000) than Muslims!
Which is probably worse; at least Turks and Arabs have awesome cuisine.
It's Iberia, not England, so no need to import an "awesome" cuisine given there is no local crappy cuisine to begin with :lol:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 11, 2009, 05:07:43 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 11, 2009, 02:57:24 AM
Which is probably worse; at least Turks and Arabs have awesome cuisine.
It's Iberia, not England, so no need to import an "awesome" cuisine given there is no local crappy cuisine to begin with :lol:
Yeah, and Arab cuisine isn't that exotic for us... our southern cuisine could almost be defined as Arab cuisine with pork (actually all Mediterranean/Latin cuisines share many things, starting with olive oil and wheat bread, but also garlic, onions, olives, cheese, lamb, lentils, rice, spices like saffron, oregano and thyme... )
Quote from: Alatriste on November 11, 2009, 05:27:43 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 11, 2009, 05:07:43 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 11, 2009, 02:57:24 AM
Which is probably worse; at least Turks and Arabs have awesome cuisine.
It's Iberia, not England, so no need to import an "awesome" cuisine given there is no local crappy cuisine to begin with :lol:
Yeah, and Arab cuisine isn't that exotic for us... our southern cuisine could almost be defined as Arab cuisine with pork (actually all Mediterranean/Latin cuisines share many things, starting with olive oil and wheat bread, but also garlic, onions, olives, cheese, lamb, lentils, rice, spices like saffron, oregano and thyme... )
We can do with more falafel, though. And personally I believe that the "Mediterranean" element of Spanish cuisine is overstated.