A NATO Without Turkey?

[Warspite]

He probably meant more extreme 'assimilation' in the sense of being forced to reject your heritage, I would imagine.

Yeah I have actually never heard of that sort of assimilation.

The French model is criticised for veering too far in that direction. And on the extreme end, you have historical examples like Canadian and Australian residential schools.

[Queequeg]

Jepp, and everybody (except the americans) seem to reciprocate.

Turkey is a weird place.

The Turks were the best and only Sword of Islam for maybe 600 years, and were responsible for turning the tide against Europe and the expansion into India and beyond.  Thus they get a bad reputation in most of Europe, as they attempted to spread Islam and the Ottoman state was basically plunder and slave dependent.  They also get a bad reputation in the Islamic World, as the Turks have ruled the Arab world since the early Seljuks. The Turkish Republic also has a really nasty racist, nationalist streak that predates Attaturk, alienating a lot of people with the denial of the Armenian genocide and the invasion of Cyprus.  They are also alternatively fawning towards Central Asian Turkic peoples, who view them (correctly) as far more Mediterranean than Turkic.  Frankly, I don't think Turkey has many friends besides Albania and the Muslim bits of Bosnia.  It is a bit like Russia in that way, I guess, only Russia is a bit smarter and more pragmatic in its insanity.

[Razgovory]

He probably meant more extreme 'assimilation' in the sense of being forced to reject your heritage, I would imagine.

Yeah I have actually never heard of that sort of assimilation.  That sounds like a scare tactic, some sort of straw man to attack.  OMG!  Don't give an inch or you will lose your Turkishness foreva!

They will simply be Germans who have Turkish ancestory and cultural traditions who will feel very Turkish...until they go back to Turkey someday and realize how very German they actually are also.  Like most "assimilated" immigrants.

It's a fear I've heard of amongst hispanics.  I suppose it's valid since I don't know German or have anything resembling German culture.

[Sahib]

That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.

Why?  Why would they do live in a city full of degenerate westerners they despise?  Why don't they immigrate to a Muslim country?

I just do not get it.  It makes me overjoyed with our immigrants.

Monies. I think it's common knowledge that most immigrants are from poor people from rural areas. If you're a comfortable middle class Istambulite, why would you ever want to emigrate? It's certainly true in case of Poland, both with the recent British Isles wave as well as with Polish-Americans (which is why they're so often an embarrassment)

[Neil]

Why?  Why would they do live in a city full of degenerate westerners they despise?  Why don't they immigrate to a Muslim country?

Muslim countries are poor, and don't have hefty social welfare programs.

[Iormlund]

They will simply be Germans who have Turkish ancestory and cultural traditions who will feel very Turkish...until they go back to Turkey someday and realize how very German they actually are also.  Like most "assimilated" immigrants.

Apparently such a situation is what drove the leader of the cell that carried out of the Madrid attacks to become a Jihadi. He was fairly integrated here, studied for his doctorate on a Spanish scholarship, had a Spanish girlfriend and the like. Then one day he took a trip back home to Tunis and found out he was no longer considered one of them. So he decided to kill a couple hundred people to prove he was.

[Ideologue]

That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.

That's what I'm getting at; I get the same feedback. The large majority of Turks coming to Germany or Austria are not from the Western parts of Turkey (which are on par with the rest of the geographical area) but from the poor/conservative East who migrate for economic reasons - many of them of course called by the respective European governments when workers were scarce.

You'll most likely notice immediately when you meet a West Turk, because they'll be much more likely to speak German, have a decent job and/or uni degree and will look down on the East Turks (who live by the bushel in my district).

I know this Turkish chick from Istanbul.  Hates the eastern part of the country, but largely because that's where Kurdish people live.

Also, she denied the Armenian genocide (it was "self-defense").  In class.  No word yet on whether the Holocaust occurred.

Obviously, my opinion of Turkey went down several points after meeting her.

[Admiral Yi]

Tell her her mustache is thin and unvirile.  That's particularly insulting in the Middle East.

[jimmy olsen]

That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.

That's what I'm getting at; I get the same feedback. The large majority of Turks coming to Germany or Austria are not from the Western parts of Turkey (which are on par with the rest of the geographical area) but from the poor/conservative East who migrate for economic reasons - many of them of course called by the respective European governments when workers were scarce.

You'll most likely notice immediately when you meet a West Turk, because they'll be much more likely to speak German, have a decent job and/or uni degree and will look down on the East Turks (who live by the bushel in my district).

I know this Turkish chick from Istanbul.  Hates the eastern part of the country, but largely because that's where Kurdish people live.

Also, she denied the Armenian genocide (it was "self-defense").  In class.  No word yet on whether the Holocaust occurred.

Obviously, my opinion of Turkey went down several points after meeting her.

Hot or not?

[Eddie Teach]

Is she a belly dancer?

[citizen k]

Is she a belly dancer?

Ho Ho Ho 

[Warspite]

They will simply be Germans who have Turkish ancestory and cultural traditions who will feel very Turkish...until they go back to Turkey someday and realize how very German they actually are also.  Like most "assimilated" immigrants.

Apparently such a situation is what drove the leader of the cell that carried out of the Madrid attacks to become a Jihadi. He was fairly integrated here, studied for his doctorate on a Spanish scholarship, had a Spanish girlfriend and the like. Then one day he took a trip back home to Tunis and found out he was no longer considered one of them. So he decided to kill a couple hundred people to prove he was.

Interesting. I've noticed a similar - but less extreme - phenomenon with the Croatian diaspora. Some of them go back home and get a bit insecure about being considered Canadian, American or Australian before Croatian by the natives.

So then you find these people in the diaspora have the most extreme positions regarding domestic issues and what constitutes a 'true' Croat, and so on.

This can be perversely amusing given that they don't have to deal with the consequences of their views.

[The Larch]

Interesting. I've noticed a similar - but less extreme - phenomenon with the Croatian diaspora. Some of them go back home and get a bit insecure about being considered Canadian, American or Australian before Croatian by the natives.

So then you find these people in the diaspora have the most extreme positions regarding domestic issues and what constitutes a 'true' Croat, and so on.

This can be perversely amusing given that they don't have to deal with the consequences of their views.

Converts (in this scenario, people who "convert back" to their home country-ness) are always the worst kind in that sense. And we have examples of that not that faraway. For instance in P'dox there is (or was, as I haven't seen him in a looooooong time) this American guy with Irish roots that is the most stick up and obnoxious defender of Irish stuff in the forum, even more than the real Irish. Or Drakken with his Swedish-ness. Maybe he can give us some input on that feeling.

[Warspite]

Oh God, yes I remember that Americo-Irish guy.

[Syt]

For instance in P'dox there is (or was, as I haven't seen him in a looooooong time) this American guy with Irish roots that is the most stick up and obnoxious defender of Irish stuff in the forum, even more than the real Irish.

I think CdM is banned on P'dox.