Poll
Question:
Colin Kaepernick is...
Option 1: A good guy
votes: 10
Option 2: A misguided/confused but well meaning guy
votes: 9
Option 3: A douchebag
votes: 8
Option 4: Colin who?
votes: 12
Option 5: An overrated option QB: NCAA legs, no NFL arm
votes: 5
Since my Mother Theresa thread was such a success...
A few weeks ago I never would have guessed that Martinus would be starting a thread on Colin Kaepernick. A couple years ago I never would have guessed he would be a backup QB in 2016 (without a major injury, at least).
For once I voted truthfully in a Languish poll. :hmm:
Quote from: alfred russel on September 14, 2016, 05:14:37 PM
A few weeks ago I never would have guessed that Martinus would be starting a thread on Colin Kaepernick. A couple years ago I never would have guessed he would be a backup QB in 2016 (without a major injury, at least).
I guess I should unsubscribe from the O'Reilly Factor then. :(
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2016, 05:21:55 PM
I guess I should unsubscribe from the O'Reilly Factor then. :(
Why are you subscribed to the O'Reilly Factor?
Quote from: mongers on September 14, 2016, 05:15:51 PM
For once I voted truthfully in a Languish poll. :hmm:
You voted "Colin who", didn't you. :)
He seems to be a mentally unstable guy who's also a bit of a weasel and a jerk but he's getting too much attention, both positive and negative.
Voted "Colin who" and googled him afterwards. So it's some dude that doesn't sit down when the US anthem gets played? Big deal.
I voted for the choice CD added.
Nothing I say here is going to surprise any of you I bet :P
As you know, I support police reform in regards to this issue so I was at first glad to see him do what he did. However, as always, he phrased it vaguely and militantly. So what he is actually asking for and what needs to happen in order for him to stand again for the anthem I have no idea.
It is sort of like this 'bringing awareness' type business where he is going to kneel until somebody else does something instead of demanding some kind of reform or action.
Like maybe he might demand the city of San Francisco commit to a program that adopts de-escalation tactics and maybe holds up some other community as a model and pledges to stop his protest once he sees some action or something. Other NFL players might do so to encourage similar programs in their cities. It could be constructive.
I just get so frustrated with this kind of thing. It seems designed to make everybody feel extremely helpless and angry and not actually achieve anything. Even though I agree with the cause. So no wonder all it has done is generate memes and internet chatter for the past few weeks. No other action is recommended.
Quote from: Valmy on September 14, 2016, 06:11:32 PM
Nothing I say here is going to surprise any of you I bet :P
As you know, I support police reform in regards to this issue so I was at first glad to see him do what he did. However, as always, he phrased it vaguely and militantly. So what he is actually asking for and what needs to happen in order for him to stand again for the anthem I have no idea.
It is sort of like this 'bringing awareness' type business where he is going to kneel until somebody else does something instead of demanding some kind of reform or action.
Like maybe he might demand the city of San Francisco commit to a program that adopts de-escalation tactics and maybe holds up some other community as a model and pledges to stop his protest once he sees some action or something. Other NFL players might do so to encourage similar programs in their cities. It could be constructive.
I just get so frustrated with this kind of thing. It seems designed to make everybody feel extremely helpless and angry and not actually achieve anything. Even though I agree with the cause. So no wonder all it has done is generate memes and internet chatter for the past few weeks. No other action is recommended.
So you voted the 2nd option?
Basically. Though he might be a total tool for all I know. Not an endorsement of him personally.
Like Valmy said, he doesn't seem to have thought out the end game. He's certainly within his rights, and I support him for eh, sitting down for what he believes in. Would probably have more bite, show business being what it is, if he weren't riding the pine.
On a tangent, Niners look pretty stupid for letting that other QB go.
Quote from: alfred russel on September 14, 2016, 05:38:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2016, 05:21:55 PM
I guess I should unsubscribe from the O'Reilly Factor then. :(
Why are you subscribed to the O'Reilly Factor?
I like Bill O'Reilly. Him and Bill Maher are my two main sources on American politics.
:lol:
The better question would be why they play the US national anthem before sport games.
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 03:57:04 AM
The better question would be why they play the US national anthem before sport games.
That's not really a great question. Google can answer that for you. Also, patriotism (nationalism?) isn't seen as a negative in America.
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 03:57:04 AM
The better question would be why they play the US national anthem before sport games.
its the only way to keep the commies at bay
Quote from: HVC on September 15, 2016, 04:03:07 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 03:57:04 AM
The better question would be why they play the US national anthem before sport games.
its the only way to keep the commies at bay
Yeah it's like church bells and faeries.
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2016, 04:45:08 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 15, 2016, 04:03:07 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 03:57:04 AM
The better question would be why they play the US national anthem before sport games.
its the only way to keep the commies at bay
Yeah it's like church bells and faeries.
gay people are afraid of bells? Oh wait, gotcha, the fairies with wings.
:P
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2016, 12:46:01 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 14, 2016, 05:38:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2016, 05:21:55 PM
I guess I should unsubscribe from the O'Reilly Factor then. :(
Why are you subscribed to the O'Reilly Factor?
I like Bill O'Reilly. Him and Bill Maher are my two main sources on American politics.
That is so sad.
I think it may shock white Americans, but I don't think blacks Americans have unreserved praise for the US. I imagine that Jews don't have reserved praised for Russia either.
White Americans have unreserved praise about the US? :blink:
Actually polls show black and Latino Americans are more likely to be optimistic about the US than White Americans, who generally shit all over it as DOOOOMED.
I used to really like O'Reilly but I eventually gave up on him as a pandering blow hard. Which was a pity since he seemed to really try to be rational and reasonable at first.
Eh, just my personal experience. I'm not about to lecture a black guy on how he should feel about a country that enslaved his ancestors.
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 03:57:04 AM
The better question would be why they play the US national anthem before sport games.
Well there was this thing called World War II and...wait a second...Europeans invented both national anthems and playing them at sporting events. Maybe the better question would be who decided to play them at the World Cup and Olympics?
Quote from: Razgovory on September 15, 2016, 08:08:30 AM
Eh, just my personal experience. I'm not about to lecture a black guy on how he should feel about a country that enslaved his ancestors.
This is bizarre thinking.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 15, 2016, 08:08:30 AM
Eh, just my personal experience. I'm not about to lecture a black guy on how he should feel about a country that enslaved his ancestors.
I don't think it is really about that.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:15:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 03:57:04 AM
The better question would be why they play the US national anthem before sport games.
Well there was this thing called World War II and...wait a second...Europeans invented both national anthems and playing them at sporting events. Maybe the better question would be who decided to play them at the World Cup and Olympics?
When it's the national team playing sure, it's suitable, but in a regular league game between clubs? What's the point?
No matter what you think about him, his protest has had the best possible effect from his perspective. It has raised awareness of the issue, forced people to start talking about it, and triggered a wave of similar protests among his peers.
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:26:35 AM
No matter what you think about him, his protest has had the best possible effect from his perspective. It has raised awareness of the issue, forced people to start talking about it, and triggered a wave of similar protests among his peers.
Sad that that is the best possible effect. I would hope the best possible effect would be actual reforms.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:29:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:26:35 AM
No matter what you think about him, his protest has had the best possible effect from his perspective. It has raised awareness of the issue, forced people to start talking about it, and triggered a wave of similar protests among his peers.
Sad that that is the best possible effect. I would hope the best possible effect would be actual reforms.
:yes:
I stand with you with what you said earlier too. Besides it isn't like in the last couple years that this issue hasn't come to the forefront of discussion/coverage by media.
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 08:26:01 AM
When it's the national team playing sure, it's suitable, but in a regular league game between clubs? What's the point?
It was a reminder, during WWII, that we are all actually on the same team. And since the war lasted for awhile, and was quickly followed up by another long war in Korea, the tradition stuck. And besides it is kind of a nice tradition in that context.
Though these days we often have lots of foreigners playing in club sports so maybe it is more for the fans to be reminded of that :P
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:29:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:26:35 AM
No matter what you think about him, his protest has had the best possible effect from his perspective. It has raised awareness of the issue, forced people to start talking about it, and triggered a wave of similar protests among his peers.
Sad that that is the best possible effect. I would hope the best possible effect would be actual reforms.
It's been two weeks or so.
kaepernick is a football player, not an experienced political activist with a seven-point plan. he managed to do something very simple that sent a big message. of course his words weren't perfect or sterilized. he throws balls as career
I don't agree with his position, but I can respect the fact that he was willing to risk his cushy position to use what leverage he has to make a statement that he thought is important.
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
Agreed again. :hug:
agree, valmy
It is kind of bizarre that during high school, college, and the pros through 2014, he was a bona fide star, and no protests. Come 2016, and his career is in jeopardy, and he launches the protest.
I don't think this is self serving in any way whatsoever--the NFL is a supremely conservative league that doesn't like anything out of the ordinary, so this endangers his career. But the impact would have been much more if he was a super bowl starting QB.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 08:26:01 AM
When it's the national team playing sure, it's suitable, but in a regular league game between clubs? What's the point?
It was a reminder, during WWII, that we are all actually on the same team. And since the war lasted for awhile, and was quickly followed up by another long war in Korea, the tradition stuck. And besides it is kind of a nice tradition in that context.
Though these days we often have lots of foreigners playing in club sports so maybe it is more for the fans to be reminded of that :P
Is it a WWII tradition? I had no idea of that.
Quote from: The Larch on September 15, 2016, 08:48:32 AM
Is it a WWII tradition? I had no idea of that.
Yep. The anthem was not played at sporting events before that. Well ok there were a few times it was played, famously during the 1918 World Series (our ever popular branding for our club baseball championship :P ) at one game. But it was not even the national anthem at the time, since we did not get one until 1931.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
But *he* can't do anything other than what he has done. He almost certainly agrees that something should have been done long ago.
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
But *he* can't do anything other than what he has done. He almost certainly agrees that something should have been done long ago.
I doubt that's the case. We all really could do more. I don't think I've ever called my congressman about an issue or attended a local council meeting. He could easily make use of social media to call for something specific. General statements to draw attention, well what is that really accomplishing? Who isn't paying attention yet that is going to pay attention?
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 09:03:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
But *he* can't do anything other than what he has done. He almost certainly agrees that something should have been done long ago.
I doubt that's the case. We all really could do more. I don't think I've ever called my congressman about an issue or attended a local council meeting. He could easily make use of social media to call for something specific. General statements to draw attention, well what is that really accomplishing? Who isn't paying attention yet that is going to pay attention?
Lots of people - this is getting plenty of discussion.
If he posted something on social media, I am sure you would all be here decrying what a vapid stance he is making, and how cheap it is to just bitch on facebook, rather than actually risking his career.
And yes, we could all do more. He could do more. He could quit. He could donate his entire salary to some worth organization. He could douse himself in gasoline and light himself on fire in the middle of the next game he is playing.
Whining about what someone DOES do because he could "do more" is fucking weak sauce. No matter what anyone does, they could "do more". If your complaint is that he doesn't do enough, why aren't you bitching at the 1000+ NFL players who did nothing at all? Aren't they worse than someone who did *something* even if it wasn't enough to meet your lofty standards?
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:22:09 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 15, 2016, 08:08:30 AM
Eh, just my personal experience. I'm not about to lecture a black guy on how he should feel about a country that enslaved his ancestors.
I don't think it is really about that.
Never been black. Don't know what it's like.
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 10:26:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 09:03:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
But *he* can't do anything other than what he has done. He almost certainly agrees that something should have been done long ago.
I doubt that's the case. We all really could do more. I don't think I've ever called my congressman about an issue or attended a local council meeting. He could easily make use of social media to call for something specific. General statements to draw attention, well what is that really accomplishing? Who isn't paying attention yet that is going to pay attention?
Lots of people - this is getting plenty of discussion.
If he posted something on social media, I am sure you would all be here decrying what a vapid stance he is making, and how cheap it is to just bitch on facebook, rather than actually risking his career.
And yes, we could all do more. He could do more. He could quit. He could donate his entire salary to some worth organization. He could douse himself in gasoline and light himself on fire in the middle of the next game he is playing.
Whining about what someone DOES do because he could "do more" is fucking weak sauce. No matter what anyone does, they could "do more". If your complaint is that he doesn't do enough, why aren't you bitching at the 1000+ NFL players who did nothing at all? Aren't they worse than someone who did *something* even if it wasn't enough to meet your lofty standards?
I disagree, clearly. As I've already said making statements at this juncture seems...well pretty useless. Problems of policing and problems for black people receive so much coverage in the media already. If he wanted to do something meaningful then he should have done something meaningful.
I think, if anything, his stunt has been a distraction. At least for most of the past two weeks, the discussion was on whether or not what he did was appropriate. People weren't discussing/trying to act on solving the issues he was highlighting but rather discussing the superficial of what should be the reaction to his action.
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 10:56:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 10:26:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 09:03:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
But *he* can't do anything other than what he has done. He almost certainly agrees that something should have been done long ago.
I doubt that's the case. We all really could do more. I don't think I've ever called my congressman about an issue or attended a local council meeting. He could easily make use of social media to call for something specific. General statements to draw attention, well what is that really accomplishing? Who isn't paying attention yet that is going to pay attention?
Lots of people - this is getting plenty of discussion.
If he posted something on social media, I am sure you would all be here decrying what a vapid stance he is making, and how cheap it is to just bitch on facebook, rather than actually risking his career.
And yes, we could all do more. He could do more. He could quit. He could donate his entire salary to some worth organization. He could douse himself in gasoline and light himself on fire in the middle of the next game he is playing.
Whining about what someone DOES do because he could "do more" is fucking weak sauce. No matter what anyone does, they could "do more". If your complaint is that he doesn't do enough, why aren't you bitching at the 1000+ NFL players who did nothing at all? Aren't they worse than someone who did *something* even if it wasn't enough to meet your lofty standards?
I disagree, clearly. As I've already said making statements at this juncture seems...well pretty useless. Problems of policing and problems for black people receive so much coverage in the media already. If he wanted to do something meaningful then he should have done something meaningful.
I disagree that public protest of this kind is useless. I think the history of race relations in the US make it pretty clear that there is never a point where public protest is "useless" because the awareness is so great that additional awareness is not at least potentially useful.
Quote
I think, if anything, his stunt has been a distraction. At least for most of the past two weeks, the discussion was on whether or not what he did was appropriate. People weren't discussing/trying to act on solving the issues he was highlighting but rather discussing the superficial of what should be the reaction to his action.
This I can agree with - it may be the case that the reaction to the protest becomes more of the story than the problem itself. But that isn't something for someone like him to evaluate, indeed, that is mostly an excuse to do nothing.
There is one thing we CAN be sure of - there are more than enough people filling the role of "someone doing nothing at all". I am not willing to focus my ire on those who make a stand, even if the stand they make isn't particularly agreeable to me.
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 11:12:20 AM
I disagree that public protest of this kind is useless. I think the history of race relations in the US make it pretty clear that there is never a point where public protest is "useless" because the awareness is so great that additional awareness is not at least potentially useful.
I think the benefit, if any, in this case is marginal at best. Nothing I'll get worked up about but I'm not cheering him on either. I'll respect, of course, his decision to do so in the system in which he did it where he could face censure from his organization.
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 11:12:20 AM
This I can agree with - it may be the case that the reaction to the protest becomes more of the story than the problem itself. But that isn't something for someone like him to evaluate, indeed, that is mostly an excuse to do nothing.
That I don't agree with. I think whenever one is making a stance, particularly so as a public figure and sort of during the course of performing his work duties, one has an obligation to evaluate what impact one's actions/words are going to have. I think some blame can totally be place on him for serving as a distraction as he has become the story moreso than the cause he wanted to highlight. The road to hell and good intentions.
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 11:12:20 AM
There is one thing we CAN be sure of - there are more than enough people filling the role of "someone doing nothing at all". I am not willing to focus my ire on those who make a stand, even if the stand they make isn't particularly agreeable to me.
Sure that's fair. As I noted above, I'm not upset by his actions but I don't think them particularly praiseworthy either. I don't think taking a stand is good in and of itself.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:29:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:26:35 AM
No matter what you think about him, his protest has had the best possible effect from his perspective. It has raised awareness of the issue, forced people to start talking about it, and triggered a wave of similar protests among his peers.
Sad that that is the best possible effect. I would hope the best possible effect would be actual reforms.
I'd agree that his stunt has gotten him tons of publicity. I'm not a fan of what he did but also wish others opposed to him hadn't made such a big deal about it.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 15, 2016, 10:33:58 AM
Never been black. Don't know what it's like.
Put on black shoe polish, wear some beat up clothes, take out your belt so your pants sag, go down to the ghetto and talk to the toughest looking guys with bad grammar and lots of double negatives.
You may not learn what it is like to be black, but you will learn something about the black experience while interacting with cops.
Do to some misunderstandings and my rather peculiar looks, I know what it is like to a be a Jew. :( Or at least a Jew running as fast as he little legs can carry him.
#firstworldpogroms
Some of these options are not mutually exclusive, so I went with what I see as the "truest" option: Kaepernick is a douchebag. Always has been.
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 10:26:03 AM
Lots of people - this is getting plenty of discussion.
If he posted something on social media, I am sure you would all be here decrying what a vapid stance he is making, and how cheap it is to just bitch on facebook, rather than actually risking his career.
And yes, we could all do more. He could do more. He could quit. He could donate his entire salary to some worth organization. He could douse himself in gasoline and light himself on fire in the middle of the next game he is playing.
Whining about what someone DOES do because he could "do more" is fucking weak sauce. No matter what anyone does, they could "do more". If your complaint is that he doesn't do enough, why aren't you bitching at the 1000+ NFL players who did nothing at all? Aren't they worse than someone who did *something* even if it wasn't enough to meet your lofty standards?
It's been a while since I've agreed with every single word in one of your posts (despite agreeing with the sentiments almost always). It's ironic to read people who do sweet fuck all bitching about a guy who does something positive, because what he does "isn't enough."
You'd almost think those posters are completely lacking in introspection and empathy.
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 10:56:22 AM
I disagree, clearly. As I've already said making statements at this juncture seems...well pretty useless. Problems of policing and problems for black people receive so much coverage in the media already. If he wanted to do something meaningful then he should have done something meaningful.
Meaning isn't determined by you, luckily for the world.
QuoteI think, if anything, his stunt has been a distraction. At least for most of the past two weeks, the discussion was on whether or not what he did was appropriate. People weren't discussing/trying to act on solving the issues he was highlighting but rather discussing the superficial of what should be the reaction to his action.
Luckily for the US, this isn't true outside your circles in Britain. I've had meaningful discussions on this very issue with students and fellow-faculty, and they usually end with me telling them to just look through the news stories actually covering his actions, not the bullshit "hot takes" like yours. In pretty much every case they come away with a much better understanding of what he is saying, and at least grudging if not ungrudging support for him.
Could he have timed it better or done it more thoroughly? Maybe. But that's not the criteria by which you judge social protest. Even guys like Gandhi and King made mistakes in timing and message.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 15, 2016, 12:41:22 PM
Do to some misunderstandings and my rather peculiar looks, I know what it is like to a be a Jew. :( Or at least a Jew running as fast as he little legs can carry him.
Perhaps you are just disliked because you are an obnoxious asshole? I mean, even without knowing how you look, you irritate people here. Perhaps the same happens in real life, and they just latch to something abstract (like, you look "Jewish") to get back at you?
I mean, I used to think people are mean to me because I'm gay, too. Now, I have embraced my inner asshole.
Edit: And this, imho, is one of the worst side effects of political correctness and identity politics. People do not change their behaviour, because they think other people are mean to them not because them themselves are obnoxious, but because those other people are racists, mysogines, homophobes, antisemites, fat-phobes, sanists etc.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2016, 12:40:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 15, 2016, 12:41:22 PM
Do to some misunderstandings and my rather peculiar looks, I know what it is like to a be a Jew. :( Or at least a Jew running as fast as he little legs can carry him.
Perhaps you are just disliked because you are an obnoxious asshole? I mean, even without knowing how you look, you irritate people here. Perhaps the same happens in real life, and they just latch to something abstract (like, you look "Jewish") to get back at you?
I mean, I used to think people are mean to me because I'm gay, too. Now, I have embraced my inner asshole.
Edit: And this, imho, is one of the worst side effects of political correctness and identity politics. People do not change their behaviour, because they think other people are mean to them not because them themselves are obnoxious, but because those other people are racists, mysogines, homophobes, antisemites, fat-phobes, sanists etc.
Random person chasing me with screaming "kike" probably has little to do with my personality since I never spoke to him.
Is the outrage at not honoring the anthem bigger or smaller than sending unsoclicited dick pics or running a dog fighting ring?
Oh good, I attracted grumbler.
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2016, 01:39:41 AM
Is the outrage at not honoring the anthem bigger or smaller than sending unsoclicited dick pics or running a dog fighting ring?
Dog fighting is definitely the biggest of those.
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2016, 01:53:14 AM
Oh good, I attracted grumbler.
Make sure to avoid eye contact and play dead, and it will go away distrated by someone's careless grammar.
Distrated? :P
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2016, 01:39:41 AM
Is the outrage at not honoring the anthem bigger or smaller than sending unsoclicited dick pics or running a dog fighting ring?
Seems much smaller. Few people were rallying around to support the dick pics or the dog fighting.
The thing that makes this juicy for everybody to babble about is this is yet another opportunity to stake out your position in the Culture War. So we get memes about how now it is ok to walk around being a Muslim and like do Muslim stuff but not ok to respect 'Murica. Because of how much worse things are than they were in 1852. Or 'why do all white people hypocritically care about Kaepernick but not about the white spotted pygmy east africa spider? Is it because they are the worst human beings in the universe? Don't answer that, that was rhetorical.'
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 10:56:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 10:26:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 09:03:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
But *he* can't do anything other than what he has done. He almost certainly agrees that something should have been done long ago.
I doubt that's the case. We all really could do more. I don't think I've ever called my congressman about an issue or attended a local council meeting. He could easily make use of social media to call for something specific. General statements to draw attention, well what is that really accomplishing? Who isn't paying attention yet that is going to pay attention?
Lots of people - this is getting plenty of discussion.
If he posted something on social media, I am sure you would all be here decrying what a vapid stance he is making, and how cheap it is to just bitch on facebook, rather than actually risking his career.
And yes, we could all do more. He could do more. He could quit. He could donate his entire salary to some worth organization. He could douse himself in gasoline and light himself on fire in the middle of the next game he is playing.
Whining about what someone DOES do because he could "do more" is fucking weak sauce. No matter what anyone does, they could "do more". If your complaint is that he doesn't do enough, why aren't you bitching at the 1000+ NFL players who did nothing at all? Aren't they worse than someone who did *something* even if it wasn't enough to meet your lofty standards?
I disagree, clearly. As I've already said making statements at this juncture seems...well pretty useless. Problems of policing and problems for black people receive so much coverage in the media already. If he wanted to do something meaningful then he should have done something meaningful.
I think, if anything, his stunt has been a distraction. At least for most of the past two weeks, the discussion was on whether or not what he did was appropriate. People weren't discussing/trying to act on solving the issues he was highlighting but rather discussing the superficial of what should be the reaction to his action.
Seems to me that the most negative reaction was after the initial "stunt" but after that even the sports radio talk shows had segments on the issues. You sound like a person who back in the day would be saying "Rosa, don't do that. You are just going to get them mad".
Well you guys are certainly free to disagree with me. I am just running out of patience with the 'Occupy Wallstreet' form of political action. Yeah so we talk about stuff. What next?
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2016, 08:13:19 AM
Well you guys are certainly free to disagree with me. I am just running out of patience with the 'Occupy Wallstreet' form of political action. Yeah so we talk about stuff. What next?
You would rather go directly to violence in the streets?
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 16, 2016, 08:17:36 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2016, 08:13:19 AM
Well you guys are certainly free to disagree with me. I am just running out of patience with the 'Occupy Wallstreet' form of political action. Yeah so we talk about stuff. What next?
You would rather go directly to violence in the streets?
Well that already happened didn't it?
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2016, 08:19:10 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 16, 2016, 08:17:36 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2016, 08:13:19 AM
Well you guys are certainly free to disagree with me. I am just running out of patience with the 'Occupy Wallstreet' form of political action. Yeah so we talk about stuff. What next?
You would rather go directly to violence in the streets?
Well that already happened didn't it?
Yeah, that is my point. If talking about something is out, there is really only one alternative. I just don't understand the position that talking about an issue has no value.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 16, 2016, 08:24:35 AM
Yeah, that is my point. If talking about something is out, there is really only one alternative. I just don't understand the position that talking about an issue has no value.
Huh. I didn't think I was not being clear. I can understand not agreeing with what I am saying but what about it is difficult to understand? Certainly I don't see where I called for violence in the streets.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2016, 08:27:54 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 16, 2016, 08:24:35 AM
Yeah, that is my point. If talking about something is out, there is really only one alternative. I just don't understand the position that talking about an issue has no value.
Huh. I didn't think I was not being clear. I can understand not agreeing with what I am saying but what about it is difficult to understand? Certainly I don't see where I called for violence in the streets.
Yes, he is being ridiculous.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 16, 2016, 08:10:30 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 10:56:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 10:26:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2016, 09:03:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
It is probably the activists' fault now that you mention it. They don't put together concrete programs to fight for so why should people like Kaepernick? Sure a statement was made but it was a statement that had been made pretty consistently ever since Ferguson. It is time to do something.
But *he* can't do anything other than what he has done. He almost certainly agrees that something should have been done long ago.
I doubt that's the case. We all really could do more. I don't think I've ever called my congressman about an issue or attended a local council meeting. He could easily make use of social media to call for something specific. General statements to draw attention, well what is that really accomplishing? Who isn't paying attention yet that is going to pay attention?
Lots of people - this is getting plenty of discussion.
If he posted something on social media, I am sure you would all be here decrying what a vapid stance he is making, and how cheap it is to just bitch on facebook, rather than actually risking his career.
And yes, we could all do more. He could do more. He could quit. He could donate his entire salary to some worth organization. He could douse himself in gasoline and light himself on fire in the middle of the next game he is playing.
Whining about what someone DOES do because he could "do more" is fucking weak sauce. No matter what anyone does, they could "do more". If your complaint is that he doesn't do enough, why aren't you bitching at the 1000+ NFL players who did nothing at all? Aren't they worse than someone who did *something* even if it wasn't enough to meet your lofty standards?
I disagree, clearly. As I've already said making statements at this juncture seems...well pretty useless. Problems of policing and problems for black people receive so much coverage in the media already. If he wanted to do something meaningful then he should have done something meaningful.
I think, if anything, his stunt has been a distraction. At least for most of the past two weeks, the discussion was on whether or not what he did was appropriate. People weren't discussing/trying to act on solving the issues he was highlighting but rather discussing the superficial of what should be the reaction to his action.
Seems to me that the most negative reaction was after the initial "stunt" but after that even the sports radio talk shows had segments on the issues. You sound like a person who back in the day would be saying "Rosa, don't do that. You are just going to get them mad".
Stop being ridiculous. Besides, do recall that Rosa Parks's case was only championed as it was thought she'd prove a sympathetic face for civil rights.
Of course what Kaepernick has done isn't really anything like what Rosa Parks did. Well I guess similar in that they are both black. :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2016, 08:13:19 AM
Well you guys are certainly free to disagree with me. I am just running out of patience with the 'Occupy Wallstreet' form of political action. Yeah so we talk about stuff. What next?
That is an excellent point...sort of.
The people raising awareness aren't actually capable of effecting change. Colin K. is not a jusge, cop, senator, President, whatever. He can only do what *he* can do, and that is raise a stink and use his celebrity to force people to talk about the issue.
Yes, that doesn't mean anything if nothing actually changes. That is not a bad thing, that is a good thing. Someone simply bitching about something should not effect change, otherwise we would be changing things for bad reasons all the time.
They can just raise the issue, and force visibility.
You complain that nothing changes? It's a fair complaint. But the right response to nothing changing for those whose power is limited to only raising the issue is to raise it again. And again. And again.
Rosa Parks could not actually change the rules on buses - if she could, she no doubt would have simply done so. All she can do is force people to look at the problem, and see what happens.
I feel like it might be worthwhile actually examining a historical example before applying it so haphazardly.
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2016, 08:51:53 AM
I feel like it might be worthwhile actually examining a historical example before applying it so haphazardly.
I think I have a pretty good idea about the historical example in question.
And I am confident that you and Valmy would be complaining that Parks stunt was just an attempt for attention, and we need to start actually doing something - hell, we've known that black people are getting screwed for decades! Rosa isn't telling us anything new!
The analogy aligns rather nicely.
But if you don't like that one, there are plenty of examples of black athletes throughout history using their celebrity to protest racism. It's not like Kapernack is doing anything new or ground breaking.
Valmy: I have actually never really understood your animosity towards Occupy, or towards activism in general. Is it because you think they ought to invest themselves into direct political action, as in partisan politics? Or because you think critics always ought to have a comprehensive reform plan in order to denounce, or contest, a situation?
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2016, 08:55:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2016, 08:51:53 AM
I feel like it might be worthwhile actually examining a historical example before applying it so haphazardly.
I think I have a pretty good idea about the historical example in question.
And I am confident that you and Valmy would be complaining that Parks stunt was just an attempt for attention, and we need to start actually doing something - hell, we've known that black people are getting screwed for decades! Rosa isn't telling us anything new!
The analogy aligns rather nicely.
But you are wrong. Rosa Parks wasn't trying to make a statement to gain awareness of injustice. She was a member of the NAACP who was tired of having to put up with mistreatment by a particular bus driver, whose buses she always tried to avoid. In fact, she said that had she seen sooner who the bus driver was, she wouldn't have even got on the bus. After she was arrested, the NAACP decided that should would be a great face for a cause celebre. That's nothing at all like a celebrity refusing to stand for the national anthem (something that isn't even connected to the issue) so that reporters would ask him why he didn't stand, so he could draw attention to a cause he feels strongly about.
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2016, 08:55:13 AMBut if you don't like that one, there are plenty of examples of black athletes throughout history using their celebrity to protest racism. It's not like Kapernack is doing anything new or ground breaking.
And, at least in the cases that I can think of, those stood out as fairly important historical actions. At best Kaepernick is going to be on celebrity face attached to a rider on all the various awareness garnering activities that have been going on with strong effect in the last few years. I agree there isn't anything new or ground breaking in what Kaepernick has done. ;)
She made a conscious choice to refuse to move when demanded, and she knew what would happen, and of course it DID happen.
The details of her actions are different of course, but the principal is the same. Kapernick cannot be arrested for not standing, but it is easy to argue that the potential harm to him is still considerable.
So no, I am NOT wrong. You are creating distinctions without difference.
We don't know yet if his actions will "stand out as fairly important". Parks actions were not new either - there were other cases of black people doing the exact same thing both before and after. She didn't know when she decided not to move that HER case would be the one that was latched onto, and neither does Kaepernick. So fucking what? Do people have to have a crystal ball before they can make a statement that passes your critical eye for sincerity?
So Kaep with his $126 million contract and relatively privileged upbringing is the new Rosa Parks?? Good one, Berkut :lol:
This has really become a distasteful discussion. I am kind of amazed that people will actually argue that he should, basically, sit down and shut up because he isn't sincere enough in their view, or he isn't important enough, or he isn't going to accomplish enough.
It all sounds like various flavors of "Shut up and be quiet, you don't have a social right to speak on this issue in this manner".
Again, I don't agree with his stance. I think the national anthem has very little to do with racism. But I respect him for having the courage to make what stance he has made, and risk something to speak out. His right to be heard in whatever fashion he thinks is appropriate and even marginally effective is something to be applauded, not mocked.
Quote from: derspiess on September 16, 2016, 09:29:15 AM
So Kaep with his $126 million contract and relatively privileged upbringing is the new Rosa Parks?? Good one, Berkut :lol:
Not at all.
I think what I've said is pretty clear - the comparison to Parks is not comparing him to Parks, it is comparing the response to his protest to the response to the protest of Parks. I have zero doubt that there were plenty of people at that time arguing that her protest was bullshit as well.
He is not comparable at all. Like I said, if you want to compare him there are plenty of examples of other black athletes you can compare him to...
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2016, 09:32:33 AM
This has really become a distasteful discussion. I am kind of amazed that people will actually argue that he should, basically, sit down and shut up because he isn't sincere enough in their view, or he isn't important enough, or he isn't going to accomplish enough.
It all sounds like various flavors of "Shut up and be quiet, you don't have a social right to speak on this issue in this manner".
Again, I don't agree with his stance. I think the national anthem has very little to do with racism. But I respect him for having the courage to make what stance he has made, and risk something to speak out. His right to be heard in whatever fashion he thinks is appropriate and even marginally effective is something to be applauded, not mocked.
It has become distasteful because you want to spin Valmy and I into people who are saying something reprehensible / that we revile what Kaepernick did. Perhaps if you did not do so, we might all have a more pleasant discussion.
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2016, 09:35:13 AM
I think what I've said is pretty clear - the comparison to Parks is not comparing him to Parks,
Then don't do it.
Quote from: derspiess on September 16, 2016, 10:16:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2016, 09:35:13 AM
I think what I've said is pretty clear - the comparison to Parks is not comparing him to Parks,
Then don't do it.
Actually, maybe we should compare reaction to Kaepernick to reaction to actions by Kim Kardashian. I wonder what hidden gems of wisdom could be uncovered. :P
Quote from: derspiess on September 16, 2016, 10:16:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2016, 09:35:13 AM
I think what I've said is pretty clear - the comparison to Parks is not comparing him to Parks,
Then don't do it.
OK, I won't.
It won't stop you from strawmanning my argument anyway, but thanks for the advice!
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2016, 10:28:14 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 16, 2016, 10:16:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2016, 09:35:13 AM
I think what I've said is pretty clear - the comparison to Parks is not comparing him to Parks,
Then don't do it.
Actually, maybe we should compare reaction to Kaepernick to reaction to actions by Kim Kardashian. I wonder what hidden gems of wisdom could be uncovered. :P
Compare away.
Funny thing is it wasn't *that* long ago he was attracting attention for his Christian bible verse tattoos: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/january/tattooed-49ers-qb-not-only-controversial-christian-in-2013.html
Now he's suddenly switched gears and has become a muslim, sporting Malcom X hats/Castro shirts/"cops are pigs" socks, and won't stand for the anthem.
Quote from: derspiess on September 16, 2016, 10:36:21 AM
Funny thing is it wasn't *that* long ago he was attracting attention for his Christian bible verse tattoos: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/january/tattooed-49ers-qb-not-only-controversial-christian-in-2013.html
Now he's suddenly switched gears and has become a muslim, sporting Malcom X hats/Castro shirts/"cops are pigs" socks, and won't stand for the anthem.
Now if you want to call him an asshole for the socks, I am right there with you.
Castro shirts probably qualify too
Seems like he is an attention seeking douchebag.
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2016, 08:45:44 AM
Of course what Kaepernick has done isn't really anything like what Rosa Parks did. Well I guess similar in that they are both black. :hmm:
Before his protest, I didn't know that he was part black. I knew that he was multi-racial, but I thought that he was part white and part Pacific islander.
Quote from: dps on September 16, 2016, 11:06:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2016, 08:45:44 AM
Of course what Kaepernick has done isn't really anything like what Rosa Parks did. Well I guess similar in that they are both black. :hmm:
Before his protest, I didn't know that he was part black. I knew that he was multi-racial, but I thought that he was part white and part Pacific islander.
From his wiki:
QuoteKaepernick was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to Heidi (Zabransky) Russo, a 19-year-old white woman who was single and destitute at the time. His birth father, an African American, left before he was born. Russo placed her son for adoption with Rick and Teresa Kaepernick, a white couple who had two children—son Kyle and daughter Devon—and were looking for a boy after having lost two other sons to heart defects. Kaepernick became the youngest of their three children. He lived in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, until age four, and attended grade school in Turlock, California.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2016, 08:13:19 AM
Well you guys are certainly free to disagree with me. I am just running out of patience with the 'Occupy Wallstreet' form of political action. Yeah so we talk about stuff. What next?
I agree with you about the "Occupy wall Street" form of political action, but am baffled as to why you'd bring it up in conjunction with what Kaepernick is doing. they seem to me to be like apples and oranges.
Quote from: derspiess on September 16, 2016, 09:29:15 AM
So Kaep with his $126 million contract and relatively privileged upbringing is the new Rosa Parks?? Good one, Berkut :lol:
I needed an example of a strawman argument for my class. Thanks for providing a such an obvious one. :thumbsup:
Quote from: derspiess on September 16, 2016, 10:36:21 AM
Funny thing is it wasn't *that* long ago he was attracting attention for his Christian bible verse tattoos: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/january/tattooed-49ers-qb-not-only-controversial-christian-in-2013.html
Now he's suddenly switched gears and has become a muslim, sporting Malcom X hats/Castro shirts/"cops are pigs" socks, and won't stand for the anthem.
You went full Raz. Never go full Raz.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2016, 11:05:09 AM
Castro shirts probably qualify too
Seems like he is an attention seeking douchebag.
Yep. No one has ever worn a Castro shirt before. Besides, he wear shoes, too, and everyone who wears shoes is an attention-seeking douchebag.
Quote from: dps on September 16, 2016, 11:06:53 AM
Before his protest, I didn't know that he was part black. I knew that he was multi-racial, but I thought that he was part white and part Pacific islander.
Same here. It never seemed significant.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2016, 08:13:19 AM
Well you guys are certainly free to disagree with me. I am just running out of patience with the 'Occupy Wallstreet' form of political action. Yeah so we talk about stuff. What next?
No kidding, right? I was just saying the other day how nobody takes the time to learn how to make bombs anymore.
Ok probably best for me to shut up now before some police station is on fire with 'Valmy told us to' scrawled on the wall in blood.
THE WEATHER VALMYGROUND
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2016, 07:58:34 AM
White Americans have unreserved praise about the US? :blink:
Or Bill Maher for that matter.
I don't think anyone has unreserved praise for Bill Maher.
Apologies if this has already been brought up. Why do we have to play the national anthem at sporting events and why does everybody have to stand up? Serious question.
because citizenship requires military service, civilian
Quote from: derspiess on September 16, 2016, 10:36:21 AM
Now he's suddenly switched gears and has become a muslim
:wacko: Kaepernick isn't a Muslim.
Quote from: fromtia on September 17, 2016, 12:45:45 PM
Apologies if this has already been brought up. Why do we have to play the national anthem at sporting events and why does everybody have to stand up? Serious question.
Hey have you heard about Google?
Quote from: LaCroix on September 17, 2016, 12:51:19 PM
because citizenship requires military service, civilian
The Roger Young deployed without you.
Quote from: fromtia on September 17, 2016, 12:45:45 PM
Apologies if this has already been brought up. Why do we have to play the national anthem at sporting events and why does everybody have to stand up? Serious question.
Surely the US is not the only country in the world where people are expected to stand during the national anthem?
Quote from: fromtia on September 17, 2016, 12:45:45 PM
Apologies if this has already been brought up. Why do we have to play the national anthem at sporting events and why does everybody have to stand up? Serious question.
It is played because it started in WWII, and never stopped.
People have to stand up because otherwise people will heckle you if you don't and it will be really awkward the rest of the game as people treat you with disdain and ask if you are with the terrorists (rhetorically, they have decided you are).
Quote from: alfred russel on September 17, 2016, 02:38:39 PM
Quote from: fromtia on September 17, 2016, 12:45:45 PM
Apologies if this has already been brought up. Why do we have to play the national anthem at sporting events and why does everybody have to stand up? Serious question.
It is played because it started in WWII, and never stopped.
People have to stand up because otherwise people will heckle you if you don't and it will be really awkward the rest of the game as people treat you with disdain and ask if you are with the terrorists (rhetorically, they have decided you are).
Glad to see you were paying attention :hug:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 17, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
Quote from: fromtia on September 17, 2016, 12:45:45 PM
Apologies if this has already been brought up. Why do we have to play the national anthem at sporting events and why does everybody have to stand up? Serious question.
Surely the US is not the only country in the world where people are expected to stand during the national anthem?
In Europe, national anthems are definitely played during international soccer games, not sure how common it is to do so during national games. People are expected to stand up, whether it is France, Poland or the UK.
You Yanks are weird with this thing. On one hand you have this really extreme flag waving patriotism, which can make most Euros uneasy at times. On the other hand, you also have this tradition of burning the national flag or shitting on the national anthem, which most Euros would find awkward (or illegal) too. Surely, there are better ways to protest, especially when you live in a country with a rule of law.
Quote from: Martinus on September 18, 2016, 11:21:43 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 17, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
Quote from: fromtia on September 17, 2016, 12:45:45 PM
Apologies if this has already been brought up. Why do we have to play the national anthem at sporting events and why does everybody have to stand up? Serious question.
Surely the US is not the only country in the world where people are expected to stand during the national anthem?
In Europe, national anthems are definitely played during international soccer games, not sure how common it is to do so during national games. People are expected to stand up, whether it is France, Poland or the UK.
You Yanks are weird with this thing. On one hand you have this really extreme flag waving patriotism, which can make most Euros uneasy at times. On the other hand, you also have this tradition of burning the national flag or shitting on the national anthem, which most Euros would find awkward (or illegal) too. Surely, there are better ways to protest, especially when you live in a country with a rule of law.
Euros just don't get Freedom of Speech, do they?
Quote from: dps on September 18, 2016, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 18, 2016, 11:21:43 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 17, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
Quote from: fromtia on September 17, 2016, 12:45:45 PM
Apologies if this has already been brought up. Why do we have to play the national anthem at sporting events and why does everybody have to stand up? Serious question.
Surely the US is not the only country in the world where people are expected to stand during the national anthem?
In Europe, national anthems are definitely played during international soccer games, not sure how common it is to do so during national games. People are expected to stand up, whether it is France, Poland or the UK.
You Yanks are weird with this thing. On one hand you have this really extreme flag waving patriotism, which can make most Euros uneasy at times. On the other hand, you also have this tradition of burning the national flag or shitting on the national anthem, which most Euros would find awkward (or illegal) too. Surely, there are better ways to protest, especially when you live in a country with a rule of law.
Euros just don't get Freedom of Speech, do they?
Eventually we will allow their scribes to marvel at our sophistication.
Quote from: Martinus on September 18, 2016, 11:21:43 AM
In Europe, national anthems are definitely played during international soccer games, not sure how common it is to do so during national games. People are expected to stand up, whether it is France, Poland or the UK.
You Yanks are weird with this thing. On one hand you have this really extreme flag waving patriotism, which can make most Euros uneasy at times. On the other hand, you also have this tradition of burning the national flag or shitting on the national anthem, which most Euros would find awkward (or illegal) too. Surely, there are better ways to protest, especially when you live in a country with a rule of law.
American Patriotism has traditionally been conditional. Trump's brand of Nationalism is more in line with how Euros think, which is I suppose why you and legbiter are attracted to such displays.
Quote from: Martinus on September 18, 2016, 11:21:43 AM
In Europe, national anthems are definitely played during international soccer games, not sure how common it is to do so during national games. People are expected to stand up, whether it is France, Poland or the UK.
You Yanks are weird with this thing. On one hand you have this really extreme flag waving patriotism, which can make most Euros uneasy at times. On the other hand, you also have this tradition of burning the national flag or shitting on the national anthem, which most Euros would find awkward (or illegal) too. Surely, there are better ways to protest, especially when you live in a country with a rule of law.
For all that we share some basic beliefs, Europeans and Americans have many areas in which understanding is difficult without making an effort. Some Americans have this wacky idea about patriotism and how you should show it, some Europeans have this wacky idea about the antisemitism and how you should show it.
Protesters in America who want to shock public opinion to get attention burn the flag. Protesters in Europe who want to shock public opinion to get attention don the swastika. I'll take the American method, because it terrifies fewer people.
He's a douche but has the right to do what he did.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 18, 2016, 12:53:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 18, 2016, 11:21:43 AM
In Europe, national anthems are definitely played during international soccer games, not sure how common it is to do so during national games. People are expected to stand up, whether it is France, Poland or the UK.
You Yanks are weird with this thing. On one hand you have this really extreme flag waving patriotism, which can make most Euros uneasy at times. On the other hand, you also have this tradition of burning the national flag or shitting on the national anthem, which most Euros would find awkward (or illegal) too. Surely, there are better ways to protest, especially when you live in a country with a rule of law.
American Patriotism has traditionally been conditional. Trump's brand of Nationalism is more in line with how Euros think, which is I suppose why you and legbiter are attracted to such displays.
This is actually a pretty insightful observation. Well done, Raz.
Quote from: dps on September 18, 2016, 12:13:47 PM
Euros just don't get Freedom of Speech, do they?
No they don't, but to be fair, neither do many Americans.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 20, 2016, 06:48:17 PM
Quote from: dps on September 18, 2016, 12:13:47 PM
Euros just don't get Freedom of Speech, do they?
No they don't, but to be fair, neither do many Americans.
Americans don't need to understand it, so long as they capitalize it.
Kap should have husbanded his public image and not endangered any future endorsement deals. He can easily give all that money to BLM or any other cause he wants.
How much is Manning making for these bathrobe commercials? If Kap retires with this image, he won't get those deals. From that perspective you could say it was a very self-sacrificial thing. And probably not a very effective one.
I don't know how you can argue it wasn't effective. It seems like it was radically more effective than he could have possibly expected.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 21, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
Kap should have husbanded his public image and not endangered any future endorsement deals. He can easily give all that money to BLM or any other cause he wants.
How much is Manning making for these bathrobe commercials? If Kap retires with this image, he won't get those deals. From that perspective you could say it was a very self-sacrificial thing. And probably not a very effective one.
He wasn't going to get any endorsement deals anyways. He just wasn't that good or that popular to begin with.
If anything this controversy has increased his name recognition and makes an endorsement deal more likely.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 21, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
Kap should have husbanded his public image and not endangered any future endorsement deals. He can easily give all that money to BLM or any other cause he wants.
How much is Manning making for these bathrobe commercials? If Kap retires with this image, he won't get those deals. From that perspective you could say it was a very self-sacrificial thing. And probably not a very effective one.
He's not getting a Manning type endorsement deal barring a pretty amazing career reversal. At worst he might have lost out on a few local commercials selling cars.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 21, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
How much is Manning making for these bathrobe commercials? If Kap retires with this image, he won't get those deals. From that perspective you could say it was a very self-sacrificial thing. And probably not a very effective one.
I don't think Kapaernick was ever going to get those deals without becoming an elite NFL QB. Which looks like a longshot.
Quote from: Berkut on September 21, 2016, 01:31:40 PM
I don't know how you can argue it wasn't effective. It seems like it was radically more effective than he could have possibly expected.
It depends what he was after. If it was attention, then it was indeed radically effective. If it was awareness leading to change in policing, that remains to be seen.
Quote from: Martinus on September 18, 2016, 01:49:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 18, 2016, 12:53:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 18, 2016, 11:21:43 AM
In Europe, national anthems are definitely played during international soccer games, not sure how common it is to do so during national games. People are expected to stand up, whether it is France, Poland or the UK.
You Yanks are weird with this thing. On one hand you have this really extreme flag waving patriotism, which can make most Euros uneasy at times. On the other hand, you also have this tradition of burning the national flag or shitting on the national anthem, which most Euros would find awkward (or illegal) too. Surely, there are better ways to protest, especially when you live in a country with a rule of law.
American Patriotism has traditionally been conditional. Trump's brand of Nationalism is more in line with how Euros think, which is I suppose why you and legbiter are attracted to such displays.
This is actually a pretty insightful observation. Well done, Raz.
Well, you finally figured out a way to completely derail me. :(
Quote from: alfred russel on September 21, 2016, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 21, 2016, 01:31:40 PM
I don't know how you can argue it wasn't effective. It seems like it was radically more effective than he could have possibly expected.
It depends what he was after. If it was attention, then it was indeed radically effective. If it was awareness leading to change in policing, that remains to be seen.
I think the awareness part is all he can hope for though. What happens with that awareness is beyond his control.
Quote from: Berkut on September 21, 2016, 02:05:10 PM
I think the awareness part is all he can hope for though. What happens with that awareness is beyond his control.
Being a resident of California, he could very easily propose a referendum.
Well now he's made the cover of Time. :lol:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 22, 2016, 03:28:01 PM
Well now he's made the cover of Time. :lol:
Hitler must be rolling in his grave.
Quote from: HVC on September 22, 2016, 03:41:55 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 22, 2016, 03:28:01 PM
Well now he's made the cover of Time. :lol:
Hitler must be rolling in his grave.
Hitler's spinning corpse is powering the secret Nazi moon base.