Allah likes winners.
QuoteHamas Commander, Accused of Theft and Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own
By DIAA HADID and MAJD AL WAHEIDIMARCH 1, 2016
The New York Times
GAZA CITY — The death of Mahmoud Ishtiwi had all the trappings of a telenovela: sex, torture and embezzlement in Gaza's most venerated and secretive institution, the armed wing of Hamas.
Mr. Ishtiwi, 34, was a commander from a storied family of Hamas loyalists who, during the 2014 war with Israel, was responsible for 1,000 fighters and a network of attack tunnels. Last month, his former comrades executed him with three bullets to the chest.
Adding a layer of scandal to the story, he was accused of moral turpitude, by which Hamas meant homosexuality. And there were whispers that he had carved the word "zulum" — wronged — into his body in a desperate kind of last testament.
His death has become the talk of the town in the conservative quarters of Gaza, the Palestinian coastal territory, endlessly discussed in living rooms, at checkpoints and in cabs. But to astute Gaza observers, this was more substantive than a soap opera.
Mr. Ishtiwi, who is survived by two wives and three children, was not the first member of Hamas's armed wing, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, to be killed by his own. What was unprecedented was the way his relatives spoke out publicly about it.
The family was considered Hamas royalty for having sheltered leaders wanted by Israel, including Mohammed Deif, the Qassam commander in chief lionized by Palestinians. Mr. Ishtiwi's mother even sent Mr. Deif, who has lost an eye and limbs but has survived repeated assassination attempts by Israel, a tearful video message in which she entreated him to release her son.
Ibrahim al-Madhoun, a writer close to Hamas, the Islamist group that controls Gaza, said the situation spotlighted shifts since Yehya Sinwar was elected in 2012 to represent Qassam in Hamas's political wing, a role akin to defense minister. Mr. Sinwar's actions, he said, showed that even senior figures were not sacrosanct.
"He is harsher than other leaders — he wants his army to be pure," Mr. Madhoun said in an interview. "Those who are in the Qassam are the most important people in Gaza. There is a need, they say, to show that these people are not untouchable."
Qassam put out a statement on Feb. 7 announcing Mr. Ishtiwi's execution, but its spokesman, and those of Hamas over all, have refused to comment since. A senior Hamas official, however, confirmed some facts and the broad contours of the case on the condition that he not be identified, saying he did not want to be seen as meddling in an affair considered embarrassing for the Hamas movement and tragic for the family.
Human Rights Watch investigated the death; the group and an international aid worker who closely followed the case have offered details. Mr. Ishtiwi's mother and 11 of his siblings were also interviewed for this article, alongside two Gaza-based human rights activists who followed parts of the story.
Mr. Ishtiwi was 19 when he joined Qassam, following three of his five brothers into the force. One, Ahmad, was killed in an Israeli strike in 2003.
He became a commander in Zeitoun, his own gritty neighborhood in Gaza City. During the 2014 war, Israeli bombs smashed his family's apartment building and his second wife's house.
It was five months after that deadly battle subsided, on Jan. 21, 2015, that Mr. Ishtiwi was summoned to an interrogation by Qassam military intelligence officials. Officers doing a kind of after-action investigation of the war suspected that he had diverted money allocated to his unit for weapons. "Do you have money?" he was asked, according to relatives. "How do you spend it?"
He admitted that he had kept money meant for the brigades, and thus, said his sister Buthaina, 27, "began the telenovela of torture."
The Hamas official said Mr. Ishtiwi's quick confession had aroused suspicion that he was hiding something bigger.
A dragnet investigation began, drawing in Mr. Ishtiwi's soldiers. Qassam officials found a man who claimed he had had sex with Mr. Ishtiwi and provided dates and locations. They concluded that the missing money had been used either to pay for sex or to keep the man quiet. If Israeli intelligence officials knew Mr. Ishtiwi was gay, the officials surmised, perhaps he had given them information in exchange for keeping a secret that, if uncovered, would have made him an outcast in his society.
Rumors rippled out that Mr. Ishtiwi had given Israeli forces the coordinates for an Aug. 20, 2014, assassination attempt on Mr. Deif, which killed one of the elusive man's wives and their infant son. But no proof ever emerged that Mr. Ishtiwi had done so.
On Feb. 15, 2015, two of Mr. Ishtiwi's siblings visited him at a Qassam base.
"Mahmoud, we heard the things they are saying about you! Is it true?" his sister Samia, now 39, recalled asking. Mr. Ishtiwi nodded yes.
Suspicious, Samia turned to the two guards flanking him. " 'Is he agreeing because you filled him with beatings?' " she recalled asking. "They said, 'He confessed without us giving him even a slap.' "
But then, she said, she saw her brother raise his hand, revealing the word "zulum" written in pen three times on his palm. She did not have a photo to prove this.
Still, Mr. Ishtiwi sought to reassure her. "Let the brothers take their procedures," Samia recalled him saying of Hamas. "Put a summer watermelon in your stomach," an expression that means "don't worry."
In his next meeting with relatives, on March 1, Mr. Ishtiwi told his brother Hussam that he had been tortured since his fourth day in detention. Six weeks later, when his wives visited, they sneaked out a note, of which Human Rights Watch shared a photograph. "They nearly killed me," it says. "I confessed to things I have never done in my life."
By June 7, when Samia visited her brother at a Qassam base near Gaza City's used car market, Mr. Ishtiwi "looked destroyed," she recalled.
"I asked, 'Why are you crying, brother?' " she said. "And he said, 'I have been wronged, wronged.' "
Relatives said Mr. Ishtiwi had told them he had been suspended from a ceiling for hours on end, for days in a row. He was whipped, and guards blasted loud music into his cell, banishing sleep.
Samia said he had raised his trouser leg to show her that he had carved the word "zulum" into his skin with a nail, as a message in case he was killed. This could not be confirmed.
She also said Mr. Ishtiwi had given her two pages crammed with writing, describing the abuse and proclaiming his innocence. The family would not share the letter, but several of Mr. Ishtiwi's siblings said that it listed episodes in which rival commanders had made errors that led to the killing of Qassam fighters in the 2014 war, and that it accused them of orchestrating his detention.
Buthaina and Samia said they had shown the letter to Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of Hamas in Gaza, at his home on June 15. (Mr. Haniyeh did not respond to requests for comment.) They said they had asked Mr. Haniyeh if their brother could have a lawyer. No. Red Cross visits? No. An internal committee to review his case? Perhaps.
They returned on July 2 with dozens of relatives and neighbors and tried to pressure Mr. Haniyeh by chanting outside his home against Hamas, a rare event. Police officers hit some of the demonstrators, people who were there said, and a senior Hamas spokesman publicly accused them of being violent.
After a sleepless night, Buthaina posted about the situation on Facebook, breaking months of silence. "We are children of this movement," she said. "We thought that we would resolve the matter between us." Instead, she said, "The trust was broken."
Aug. 10 was the last time the family saw Mr. Ishtiwi.
Later, his mother sent her emotional eight-minute video to Mr. Deif, the Qassam chief, begging him to save Mr. Ishtiwi's life. She reminded him that she had sheltered him at great personal risk. She pleaded, "Free my son!"
Mr. Ishtiwi's family continued to press officials for his freedom. The last such meeting, with a senior Hamas preacher and two other men at the family's rented home in Zeitoun, lasted until 2 a.m. on Feb. 7.
It was later that very day, after Mr. Ishtiwi said afternoon prayers, that he was killed.
Tough for Right-wingers all over.
The IG can be a bitch sometimes.
Mr. Ishtwi so doesn't sound like a commander. More like the guy with the cornershop selling vegetables.
Surely he couldn't have been acting alone? This kind of conspiracy requires dozens, if not hundreds, of accomplices within his unit.
Well, he ded like Zed now, and it's interesting to see Hamas has internal conflict.
Was he heterosex insecure?
The progressive left everywhere now have a conundrum...
Quote from: Martinus on March 03, 2016, 12:03:22 PM
The progressive left everywhere now have a conundrum...
No shit. Raz gets his jollies from calling Hamas right-wing, but their friends in the West are lefties.
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 12:05:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 03, 2016, 12:03:22 PM
The progressive left everywhere now have a conundrum...
No shit. Raz gets his jollies from calling Hamas right-wing, but their friends in the West are lefties.
Multiculturalist lefties, not Martinus types.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 03, 2016, 01:45:40 PM
Multiculturalist lefties, not Martinus types.
:rolleyes:
'Martinus types'?
Huh. I just figured he was one of a kind.
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 12:05:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 03, 2016, 12:03:22 PM
The progressive left everywhere now have a conundrum...
No shit. Raz gets his jollies from calling Hamas right-wing, but their friends in the West are lefties.
How would you characterize religious fundamentalists?
Quote from: Valmy on March 03, 2016, 02:00:18 PM
'Martinus types'?
Huh. I just figured he was one of a kind.
I think "limousine liberal" might be the best-fit. He likes to feel all progressive-y up to a point, but he does believe the West is better than the ROTW.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 03, 2016, 02:06:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 03, 2016, 02:00:18 PM
'Martinus types'?
Huh. I just figured he was one of a kind.
I think "limousine liberal" might be the best-fit. He likes to feel all progressive-y up to a point, but he does believe the West is better than the ROTW.
Are there reasonable people who do not?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 03, 2016, 02:06:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 03, 2016, 02:00:18 PM
'Martinus types'?
Huh. I just figured he was one of a kind.
I think "limousine liberal" might be the best-fit. He likes to feel all progressive-y up to a point, but he does believe the West is better than the ROTW.
I have been reexamining lately my political stances. I am generally:
- moderate/centrist on wealth redistribution
- pro-freemarket (with the exception of being pro-regulation of big business on things such as antitrust, consumer protection, etc.)
- pro-personal freedom, including freedom of speech (with the exception of public health, i.e. I am anti-anti-vaxxer).
I wonder what you would call that, especially given the different meaning of the word "liberal" etc. :hmm:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 03, 2016, 01:45:40 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 12:05:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 03, 2016, 12:03:22 PM
The progressive left everywhere now have a conundrum...
No shit. Raz gets his jollies from calling Hamas right-wing, but their friends in the West are lefties.
Multiculturalist lefties, not Martinus types.
Like supporters of Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party, the guy taking selfies with known Hamas supporters? Yeah, that type, exactly :) I bet they're in shock to learn the Hamas are not the good guys. Or maybe, they just think it's the price to pay for freedom fighting.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 02:04:30 PM
How would you characterize religious fundamentalists?
Depends on the movement. Some religious fundamentalists are downright socialist in their economic views/policies.
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 04:10:31 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 02:04:30 PM
How would you characterize religious fundamentalists?
Depends on the movement. Some religious fundamentalists are downright socialist in their economic views/policies.
Right wing can be downright socialist in some countries. Which is why that distinction can get pretty worthless when you move across national political cultures.
We really need to come up with better words to describe political stances.
That's why Trump needs to be the next President. He has the best words so could help.
I think the Left-Right, Authoritarian-Libertarian spectrum works quite well.
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 04:19:28 PM
I think the Left-Right, Authoritarian-Libertarian spectrum works quite well.
There are some areas it still doesn't catch quite well. For example, many pro-personal-freedom people also believe in curbing the power of big business, especially vis-a-vis an individual - but also believe in personal responsibility and are opposed to wealth redistribution. Which box does this stance fit into?
That would sound like a center-libertarian position.
My problem with that scale is that placing various "social issues" on the scale on the same line is arbitrary and doesn't really describe how people derive those positions.
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 04:10:31 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 02:04:30 PM
How would you characterize religious fundamentalists?
Depends on the movement. Some religious fundamentalists are downright socialist in their economic views/policies.
You mean charity?
No.
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
He just wants everything that is not him specifically to be classified as left wing. Ok maybe not but I have heard that basically said by right wing americans before :P
Quote from: Martinus on March 03, 2016, 02:13:47 PM
...
I have been reexamining lately my political stances.
And I wonder how often you reexamine your various positions on any number of topics during any given week... Is Facebook, Twitter or Tumblr your GPS of choice these days?
G.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
Whether or not they are is irrelevant to the childish point you're trying to make.
Quote from: Grallon on March 03, 2016, 09:48:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 03, 2016, 02:13:47 PM
...
I have been reexamining lately my political stances.
And I wonder how often you reexamine your various positions on any number of topics during any given week... Is Facebook, Twitter or Tumblr your GPS of choice these days?
:D
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
Whether or not they are is irrelevant to the childish point you're trying to make.
I am not even sure what his point is.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 07:18:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 04:10:31 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 02:04:30 PM
How would you characterize religious fundamentalists?
Depends on the movement. Some religious fundamentalists are downright socialist in their economic views/policies.
You mean charity?
No, many religion-focused political groups around the world are big on wealth redistribution, socialised medicine and education, and social safety nets. When the state is a democracy, this is usually accomplished by the state sharing these jobs with church(es) (which is/are, however, heavily subsidised by the state to perform these roles), in theocracies these functions are performed outright by the state (albeit with a religious slant).
In fact, commitment to free market and a sink-or-swim approach to personal responsibility is quite unique to Protestantism, and is generally not shared by other religions (including Catholicism or Islam).
Was Rubio crying during the debate? His eyes were all watery. :lol:
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
Whether or not they are is irrelevant to the childish point you're trying to make.
What point do you think I was trying to make? All I did was identify Hamas as a right wing group.
Quote from: Martinus on March 04, 2016, 01:58:04 AM
Was Rubio crying during the debate? His eyes were all watery. :lol:
He just loves this country so much.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
No, I wouldn't say so.
Hamas has much in common with the party of Erdogan in Turkey and the Moslem Brotherhood, who at least at face value support quite leftist fiscal policies.
Socially conservative, well yes, but ever since Bismarck, paternalist policies in helping the poor has been a part of many brands of conservatism.
Fatah was the darling of the European new left back in the 70s. The story of Hamas includes the Mossad trying to build an alternative organisation mostly focused on welfare and religion instead of Arafat's Fatah. It could be considered the most dire example of blowback ever when Hamas actually began to take an interest in politics.
Quote from: Norgy on March 04, 2016, 09:07:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
No, I wouldn't say so.
Hamas has much in common with the party of Erdogan in Turkey and the Moslem Brotherhood, who at least at face value support quite leftist fiscal policies.
Socially conservative, well yes, but ever since Bismarck, paternalist policies in helping the poor has been a part of many brands of conservatism.
Well right. Just like some people therefore claim the FN in France is a left wing party. But I find that a bit absurd. Also I don't think that kind of paternalistic conservatism was invented by Bismark.
Neither Hamas nor the FN are very fond of furriners, I think.
The FN is a good example of the new right in Europe; working class voters, and playing on the perceived betrayal the socialists done to the working man. Incidentally, I think you'd find a lot of jobless middle-aged males among their voters.
I'd say Hamas is difficult to place. Religious extremism and terrorism are neither left nor right.
Terrorism and extremism are certainly a lovely set of values shared by left and right alike.
But religious extremism implies a social conservative agenda typically.
Quote from: Martinus on March 04, 2016, 01:40:44 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
Whether or not they are is irrelevant to the childish point you're trying to make.
I am not even sure what his point is.
That Hamas = GOP
Quote from: derspiess on March 04, 2016, 09:27:35 AM
That Hamas = GOP
Ah. Well that is stupid.
Come on Raz, Siege constantly does the 'Democrats = Soviet Bloc Communists' thing. Don't be like Siege.
Quote from: derspiess on March 04, 2016, 09:27:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 04, 2016, 01:40:44 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
Whether or not they are is irrelevant to the childish point you're trying to make.
I am not even sure what his point is.
That Hamas = GOP
I never said that. All I said that it was right wing. Then you got all defensive.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 04, 2016, 03:07:33 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 04, 2016, 09:27:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 04, 2016, 01:40:44 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 03, 2016, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
Whether or not they are is irrelevant to the childish point you're trying to make.
I am not even sure what his point is.
That Hamas = GOP
I never said that. All I said that it was right wing. Then you got all defensive.
So you were trolling me. Like you do in 90% of your posts.
The funny thing is of course that Raz is much more religiously conservative than Spicy has ever seemed to be.
Quote from: Norgy on March 04, 2016, 09:07:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
No, I wouldn't say so.
Hamas has much in common with the party of Erdogan in Turkey and the Moslem Brotherhood, who at least at face value support quite leftist fiscal policies.
Socially conservative, well yes, but ever since Bismarck, paternalist policies in helping the poor has been a part of many brands of conservatism.
Fatah was the darling of the European new left back in the 70s. The story of Hamas includes the Mossad trying to build an alternative organisation mostly focused on welfare and religion instead of Arafat's Fatah. It could be considered the most dire example of blowback ever when Hamas actually began to take an interest in politics.
Fatah, is a leftist party. It's part of the Socialists international, so it's no wonder it should be the darling of the European left in the 1970's. Erdogan's crew is not Islamist but social conservative and free market. Hamas is fundamentalist and Nationalist. It is firmly in the right wing. That it runs soup kitchens does not change that one iota.
Quote from: derspiess on March 04, 2016, 03:11:33 PM
So you were trolling me. Like you do in 90% of your posts.
No... You just jumped to conclusions.
Quote from: Norgy on March 04, 2016, 03:13:25 PM
The funny thing is of course that Raz is much more religiously conservative than Spicy has ever seemed to be.
:huh:
Quote from: Norgy on March 04, 2016, 03:13:25 PM
The funny thing is of course that Raz is much more religiously conservative than Spicy has ever seemed to be.
Raz is the Defender of Faith(tm) but not actually religious himself...at least that I can see.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 04, 2016, 03:18:58 PM
Quote from: Norgy on March 04, 2016, 09:07:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
Okay. Well whatever you consider Socialist, Hamas is the still a far right group.
No, I wouldn't say so.
Hamas has much in common with the party of Erdogan in Turkey and the Moslem Brotherhood, who at least at face value support quite leftist fiscal policies.
Socially conservative, well yes, but ever since Bismarck, paternalist policies in helping the poor has been a part of many brands of conservatism.
Fatah was the darling of the European new left back in the 70s. The story of Hamas includes the Mossad trying to build an alternative organisation mostly focused on welfare and religion instead of Arafat's Fatah. It could be considered the most dire example of blowback ever when Hamas actually began to take an interest in politics.
Fatah, is a leftist party. It's part of the Socialists international, so it's no wonder it should be the darling of the European left in the 1970's. Erdogan's crew is not Islamist but social conservative and free market. Hamas is fundamentalist and Nationalist. It is firmly in the right wing. That it runs soup kitchens does not change that one iota.
Fatah isn't nationalist in your opinion?
I am going to give that a :lol:.
I can't quite remember the name of Tr... sorry Erdogan's party, but I think it translates to the social and welfare party. It's basically authoritarian with a smack of welfare.
Your analysis seems to be socially conservative, therefore rightwing.
I didn't say that Fatah wasn't nationalist. I just said they were socialist, which they are (or at least were). Erdogan's outfit is the Justice and Development party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_%28Turkey%29 Here take a look.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 04, 2016, 03:19:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 04, 2016, 03:11:33 PM
So you were trolling me. Like you do in 90% of your posts.
No... You just jumped to conclusions.
You're just pissed because you have to eat fish today, while I get to eat that 22 oz. porterhouse I'm planning on ordering :yeah:
I am not unhappy. I get boiled shrimp.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 04, 2016, 03:35:28 PM
I didn't say that Fatah wasn't nationalist. I just said they were socialist, which they are (or at least were). Erdogan's outfit is the Justice and Development party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_%28Turkey%29 Here take a look.
Fatah are Nazis?
Shrimp is an excellent appetizer.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 04, 2016, 03:35:28 PM
I didn't say that Fatah wasn't nationalist. I just said they were socialist, which they are (or at least were). Erdogan's outfit is the Justice and Development party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_%28Turkey%29 Here take a look.
At least they have the Kurd murdering in common with Saddam.
Quote from: Norgy on March 04, 2016, 05:45:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 04, 2016, 03:35:28 PM
I didn't say that Fatah wasn't nationalist. I just said they were socialist, which they are (or at least were). Erdogan's outfit is the Justice and Development party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_%28Turkey%29 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_%28Turkey%29) Here take a look.
At least they have the Kurd murdering in common with Saddam.
It's not murder when they blow themselves up :contract:
Religious fundamentalism is not inherently conservative, except on certain social issues. I've pointed out before that the most fundamentalist President we've ever had was Jimmy Carter (at least since the 19th Century; Hayes may have been more of a fundamentalist), and President Carter was hardly a hard-right type.
Quote from: dps on March 05, 2016, 12:11:09 PM
Religious fundamentalism is not inherently conservative, except on certain social issues. I've pointed out before that the most fundamentalist President we've ever had was Jimmy Carter (at least since the 19th Century; Hayes may have been more of a fundamentalist), and President Carter was hardly a hard-right type.
Depends on the political culture sure. It does not line up exactly with conservatism here because of the whole Church state separation.
Quote from: dps on March 05, 2016, 12:11:09 PM
Religious fundamentalism is not inherently conservative, except on certain social issues. I've pointed out before that the most fundamentalist President we've ever had was Jimmy Carter (at least since the 19th Century; Hayes may have been more of a fundamentalist), and President Carter was hardly a hard-right type.
I actually said right-wing not conservative, but what is in your opinion inherently conservative?
Quote from: Razgovory on March 05, 2016, 12:31:21 PM
Quote from: dps on March 05, 2016, 12:11:09 PM
Religious fundamentalism is not inherently conservative, except on certain social issues. I've pointed out before that the most fundamentalist President we've ever had was Jimmy Carter (at least since the 19th Century; Hayes may have been more of a fundamentalist), and President Carter was hardly a hard-right type.
I actually said right-wing not conservative, but what is in your opinion inherently conservative?
That makes even less sense. The only inherent right wing attitudes in religious fundamentalism are social conservatism. There isn't anything else inherently right wing there.
dps, perhaps we should stop feeding the troll?
Quote from: Valmy on March 04, 2016, 09:25:11 AM
Terrorism and extremism are certainly a lovely set of values shared by left and right alike.
But religious extremism implies a social conservative agenda typically.
Which just goes to show that the old left vs. right division doesn't really work any more. The real divide is authoritarianism vs. liberty, imho.
Quote from: Martinus on March 05, 2016, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 05, 2016, 12:31:21 PM
Quote from: dps on March 05, 2016, 12:11:09 PM
Religious fundamentalism is not inherently conservative, except on certain social issues. I've pointed out before that the most fundamentalist President we've ever had was Jimmy Carter (at least since the 19th Century; Hayes may have been more of a fundamentalist), and President Carter was hardly a hard-right type.
I actually said right-wing not conservative, but what is in your opinion inherently conservative?
That makes even less sense. The only inherent right wing attitudes in religious fundamentalism are social conservatism. There isn't anything else inherently right wing there.
dps, perhaps we should stop feeding the troll?
No, it is not. Think harder, Marty.
Quote from: Martinus on March 05, 2016, 12:35:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 04, 2016, 09:25:11 AM
Terrorism and extremism are certainly a lovely set of values shared by left and right alike.
But religious extremism implies a social conservative agenda typically.
Which just goes to show that the old left vs. right division doesn't really work any more. The real divide is authoritarianism vs. liberty, imho.
Um the old Right vs Left divide comes from the French Revolution. The left was more Free Market Capitalism than the right was. So I don't get where this definition came to be universally applied everywhere when that was never considered part of it.
Quote from: Valmy on March 05, 2016, 12:46:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 05, 2016, 12:35:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 04, 2016, 09:25:11 AM
Terrorism and extremism are certainly a lovely set of values shared by left and right alike.
But religious extremism implies a social conservative agenda typically.
Which just goes to show that the old left vs. right division doesn't really work any more. The real divide is authoritarianism vs. liberty, imho.
Um the old Right vs Left divide comes from the French Revolution. The left was more Free Market Capitalism than the right was. So I don't get where this definition came to be universally applied everywhere when that was never considered part of it.
Even the French revolutionaries weren't right 100% of the time. :contract:
Quote from: Martinus on March 05, 2016, 01:23:48 PM
Even the French revolutionaries weren't right 100% of the time. :contract:
:o
How dare you! :mad:
Ok seriously though I was just saying the term has always been a non-exact one where the ideologies in question change depending upon the local politics.