Dutch dumbasses
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/08/13/dutch-newspaper-uses-n-word-in-headline-of-review-of-ta-nehisi-coatess-new-book/?postshare=6031439504729840
People looking for reasons to be offended are tiresome.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FME4vyCckDQQ%2Fhqdefault.jpg&hash=eb869c6234b8cf79b165b257e3b3fac4649376a7)
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
I love this part in particular:
QuoteWhat the NRC episode reveals is that as the Black Lives Matter movement increases in visibility both in the United States and abroad, American discourse about race, privilege and media representations will inevitably bump up against and illuminate the state of race relations, identity and privilege in other countries.
The arrogant expectation that the US is to "illuminate" other countries about "race relations" (while being historically one of the biggest offenders on the planet, and certainly in the Western world) is preposterous.
Also, I am coming to a conclusion that anyone these days who uses the word "privilege" in discourse is a cretin. It seems to have become a buzzword of the dumb.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
A bit odd given that this incident stemmed from non-Americans commenting on books about US race relations.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:07:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
A bit odd given that this incident stemmed from non-Americans commenting on books about US race relations.
:huh: The Washington Post (and I guess quite a few of the twitterstormers) is American.
Quote from: PostKrielaars's argument doesn't pass the laugh test. How does one consciously intend to use racially offensive imagery and language, but yet say it's "stupid" to think that they were intended to offend?
Reading American books on the history of racist expression must be a strangely unsatisfying experience.
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2015, 04:13:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:07:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
A bit odd given that this incident stemmed from non-Americans commenting on books about US race relations.
:huh: The Washington Post (and I guess quite a few of the twitterstormers) is American.
Which came about because of the insensitive way that the Dutch commenters handled their commenting on books about American race relations.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
I'm willing to make a substantial wager that if you called a European black person a nigger, they'd punch you in the face just as soon as an American black person.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:21:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2015, 04:13:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:07:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
A bit odd given that this incident stemmed from non-Americans commenting on books about US race relations.
:huh: The Washington Post (and I guess quite a few of the twitterstormers) is American.
Which came about because of the insensitive way that the Dutch commenters handled their commenting on books about American race relations.
Yeah the American outrage industry had nothing to do with it. :lol:
I am outraged by Brain's slanders against my country. :mad:
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
I'm willing to make a substantial wager that if you called a European black person a nigger, they'd punch you in the face just as soon as an American black person.
Even if the European black person does not know English?
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2015, 04:40:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:21:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2015, 04:13:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:07:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
A bit odd given that this incident stemmed from non-Americans commenting on books about US race relations.
:huh: The Washington Post (and I guess quite a few of the twitterstormers) is American.
Which came about because of the insensitive way that the Dutch commenters handled their commenting on books about American race relations.
Yeah the American outrage industry had nothing to do with it. :lol:
I don't see what is outrageous in taking issue with this. :mellow:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 14, 2015, 04:50:10 AM
Even if the European black person does not know English?
That will be one of the few English words they do know.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:55:19 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2015, 04:40:01 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:21:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2015, 04:13:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2015, 04:07:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
A bit odd given that this incident stemmed from non-Americans commenting on books about US race relations.
:huh: The Washington Post (and I guess quite a few of the twitterstormers) is American.
Which came about because of the insensitive way that the Dutch commenters handled their commenting on books about American race relations.
Yeah the American outrage industry had nothing to do with it. :lol:
I don't see what is outrageous in taking issue with this. :mellow:
Does anyone think it's outrageous that they are outraged?
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 04:57:03 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 14, 2015, 04:50:10 AM
Even if the European black person does not know English?
That will be one of the few English words they do know.
Not necessarily. Not all of them get their few English words thanks to hip hop.
They are much more likely to be offended by the equivalent slur or derogative term in the language they speak.
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
I'm willing to make a substantial wager that if you called a European black person a nigger, they'd punch you in the face just as soon as an American black person.
There are many words that, when used against another person in a similar situation, would generate a similar reaction. That is not to say that using the word in abstract in a non-English language publication in a non-English country should be seen as offensive.
The word "nigger" plays a special role in the US public discourse that other derogatory words such as "faggot", "cunt" or "kike" do not. It has become a taboo and no other word comes close. This is the cultural context I was talking about and it is justified by US history. It's similar to Germany banning the use of swastika - yet you do not see German newspapers writing articles about other countries' media using a swastika in their local publications.
I now understand that Swedish band Clawfinger are horrible racists and homophobes. With songs like (***Trigger Warning***) Nigger and The Faggot In You it is obvious to me now that they are. :(
Swedish metal? Goes without saying. :uffda:
Why did a Dutch language newspaper put a headline in English in the first place?
I will get on the Dutch as soon as Americans stop expressing their racism about a million times a day on social media.
Quote from: dps on August 14, 2015, 06:31:36 AM
Why did a Dutch language newspaper put a headline in English in the first place?
You can find out under the link - this is apparently a quote.
Believe it or not but European media sometimes use foreign words and expressions in their articles. Sometimes the readers can even understand and pronounce the words correctly.
Reminds me of when I posted a photo of a Spanish demo and people on here were surprised that Spanish people would hold signs with "STOP!" written on them :P
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
Actually it does. Otherwise you wouldn't be going on about Game of thrones.
I guess Martinus' attention-whoring thread was deleted?
Yep. Maybe even by him.
Maybe he decided public proof of his drunkenness is a bad thing.
The article, for reasons I don't understand, included the tweet:
"I have no idea how my Black Dutch friends get through the day. These aren't microaggressions, this is outright violence."
I goggled the author, Siddhartha Mitter, who apparently went to Havard and worked for the Boston Globe, so it seems he should be smart...But then he has such an odd understanding of what constitutes outright violence. And then was quoted in an article discussing language usage.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2015, 04:45:01 AM
I am outraged by Brain's slanders against my country. :mad:
Meh it's the brain, i don't think we would want him complementing us.
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 10:45:50 AM
Yep. Maybe even by him.
Yes, but by me.
He can call Tim a dumbass in threads all he wants. However, I'm not going to stand for him or anyone else starting threads specifically to do that.
Quote from: Habbaku on August 14, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
I guess Martinus' attention-whoring thread was deleted?
He only has one?
Quote from: alfred russel on August 14, 2015, 11:02:58 AM
The article, for reasons I don't understand, included the tweet:
"I have no idea how my Black Dutch friends get through the day. These aren't microaggressions, this is outright violence."
I goggled the author, Siddhartha Mitter, who apparently went to Havard and worked for the Boston Globe, so it seems he should be smart...But then he has such an odd understanding of what constitutes outright violence. And then was quoted in an article discussing language usage.
I just assume when I hear stuff like this they are making mountains out of molehills (or mountain ranges out of mountains perhaps in this case) intentionally for the purposes of activism and ideology. Fighting the good fight as it were.
I am pretty sure black dutch people have a thick enough skin to not let a few N-words said or printed someplace in the Netherlands to destroy their lives. I suspect they have the appropriate level of contempt for the sayer or printer that matches the circumstances.
Besides he has no idea how his friends are coping with a circumstance? He cannot ask his friends about how they feel?
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 14, 2015, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 10:45:50 AM
Yep. Maybe even by him.
Yes, but by me.
He can call Tim a dumbass in threads all he wants. However, I'm not going to stand for him or anyone else starting threads specifically to do that.
Well done. Tim is still our friend no matter how big of a jerk he was about the 2006 Rose Bowl.
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 11:27:31 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 14, 2015, 11:02:58 AM
The article, for reasons I don't understand, included the tweet:
"I have no idea how my Black Dutch friends get through the day. These aren't microaggressions, this is outright violence."
I goggled the author, Siddhartha Mitter, who apparently went to Havard and worked for the Boston Globe, so it seems he should be smart...But then he has such an odd understanding of what constitutes outright violence. And then was quoted in an article discussing language usage.
I just assume when I hear stuff like this they are making mountains out of molehills (or mountain ranges out of mountains perhaps in this case) intentionally for the purposes of activism and ideology. Fighting the good fight as it were.
I am pretty sure black dutch people have a thick enough skin to not let a few N-words said or printed someplace in the Netherlands to destroy their lives. I suspect they have the appropriate level of contempt for the sayer or printer that matches the circumstances.
Besides he has no idea how his friends are coping with a circumstance? He cannot ask his friends about how they feel?
You do realise that the sentence with "nigger" in it was a direct quotation of the book by a black author this article was reviewing, right? And the article was about racism. I am not sure why they should have "the appropriate level of contempt" for the author of the article.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 14, 2015, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 10:45:50 AM
Yep. Maybe even by him.
Yes, but by me.
He can call Tim a dumbass in threads all he wants. However, I'm not going to stand for him or anyone else starting threads specifically to do that.
The thread was a direct copy of this thread, only the word "Dutch" was replaced by "Tim" and "racist" was replaced by "dumb".
Quote from: alfred russel on August 14, 2015, 11:02:58 AM
The article, for reasons I don't understand, included the tweet:
"I have no idea how my Black Dutch friends get through the day. These aren't microaggressions, this is outright violence."
I goggled the author, Siddhartha Mitter, who apparently went to Havard and worked for the Boston Globe, so it seems he should be smart...But then he has such an odd understanding of what constitutes outright violence. And then was quoted in an article discussing language usage.
Because, as we used to say in the Eastern Bloc, "the class warfare intensifies just as the revolution progresses". It seems chasing "institutionalised racism" in the US is not enough anymore, so the revolution needs to be exported to those damnable, racist, slave-owning Dutch.
It only takes a bunch of easily agitated cretins and social justice warriors to sharpen the pitchforks.
For the record, Washington Post seems to be quite happy using other slurs, such as "wetback" or "faggot" in headlines or text (as quotation - i.e. in the same way the author of this article did). So again, I ask what is the gist of their problem here.
Is it about the word "nigger" being a taboo, no matter the context and the fact that it was used in quotation? If so, the critique is both misguided (as the word does not carry the same level of stigma as it does in the US, and is no different from other racial, ethnic or homophobic slurs in the Netherlands) and hypocritical as Washington Post happily uses other slurs in its text itself.
Is it about the Dutch article being itself racist? The Washington Post article does not even try to establish that.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 12:01:45 PM
You do realise that the sentence with "nigger" in it was a direct quotation of the book by a black author this article was reviewing, right? And the article was about racism. I am not sure why they should have "the appropriate level of contempt" for the author of the article.
The appropriate level being zero if it 'matches the circumstances' ;)
I intentionally wrote it that way.
QuoteIs it about the Dutch article being itself racist? The Washington Post article does not even try to establish that.
It is the word paired with the 'blackface' picture. It was all in the American context.
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 12:01:45 PM
You do realise that the sentence with "nigger" in it was a direct quotation of the book by a black author this article was reviewing, right? And the article was about racism. I am not sure why they should have "the appropriate level of contempt" for the author of the article.
The appropriate level being zero if it 'matches the circumstances' ;)
I intentionally wrote it that way.
Fine, but I think if you word it this way you are giving field to the crazies like the guy. I think we have reached the point when they should be actively opposed, as otherwise people like that will soon shout down any meaningful and diverse discourse. :)
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 12:20:07 PM
It is the word paired with the 'blackface' picture. It was all in the American context.
Again, it may be inoffensive in the Dutch context. If someone wanted to publish that article in the US, then you could take offence (although, it may also be explained by cultural differences) but they didn't. Perhaps asking the Dutch people how they felt about the article would be a good start before declaring that "the Dutch continue to be ridiculously racist and in denial about it".
The blurb about the writer mentions she worked for AP in Curacao previously. So even if she is American (unknown to me), her thoughts on Dutch race relations will be based on experience. Also, not sure the Post necessarily shares her views.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 12:22:11 PM
Fine, but I think if you word it this way you are giving field to the crazies like the guy. I think we have reached the point when they should be actively opposed, as otherwise people like that will soon shout down any meaningful and diverse discourse. :)
I doubt that dude would give two fucks what I think even if I wrote him a personalized letter and hand delivered to him, much less posting it here on some tiny message board :P
But rather I was just saying it was odd he brought up his black Dutch friends while announcing his ignorance of how they managed the situation. I mean why not direct this article to them and let them post a comment if they feel strongly about it?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2015, 12:26:30 PM
The blurb about the writer mentions she worked for AP in Curacao previously. So even if she is American (unknown to me), her thoughts on Dutch race relations will be based on experience. Also, not sure the Post necessarily shares her views.
Oooh good to know. She might be know a few things about Dutch race relations. That change your view a bit Marty?
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2015, 12:26:30 PM
The blurb about the writer mentions she worked for AP in Curacao previously. So even if she is American (unknown to me), her thoughts on Dutch race relations will be based on experience. Also, not sure the Post necessarily shares her views.
Oooh good to know. She might be know a few things about Dutch race relations. That change your view a bit Marty?
Possibly. I am still willing to trust The Brain more. ;)
The illustration is pretty terrible. I don't see much issue with the title if it's a quote from one of the books, in a scene than then it's discussed in the review.
But the illustration is awful.
Yeah that would never fly here. It would trigger a national PTSD. We have less than zero interest in that kind of imagery.
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2015, 12:26:30 PM
The blurb about the writer mentions she worked for AP in Curacao previously. So even if she is American (unknown to me), her thoughts on Dutch race relations will be based on experience. Also, not sure the Post necessarily shares her views.
Oooh good to know. She might be know a few things about Dutch race relations. That change your view a bit Marty?
I doubt Curacao is really comparable to mainland The Netherlands.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 14, 2015, 12:58:12 PM
I doubt Curacao is really comparable to mainland The Netherlands.
Maybe. But what do I know? I only know they produce good baseball players.
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 12:49:52 PM
Yeah that would never fly here. It would trigger a national PTSD. We have less than zero interest in that kind of imagery.
But that cuts both ways, no? There are many examples of imagery and discourse that is considered acceptable in the US but wouldn't be in Europe (for starters, most stuff to do with nationalism/guns etc.)
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 12:49:52 PM
Yeah that would never fly here. It would trigger a national PTSD. We have less than zero interest in that kind of imagery.
I used to work in a place that had a department wide conference that brought in 100+ people from overseas. At the end there was a big party where the theme was music and people were encouraged to dress up as a musician.
Word had to go out that it was not cool to show up in blackface, as a significant number of foreign people were planning to do that.
Which makes sense--it is really the American history of blackface that makes it offensive, and even with similar traditions in other countries, the interpretation of the whole genre of pretending to be another race as offensive is not going to be universal.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 14, 2015, 01:12:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 12:49:52 PM
Yeah that would never fly here. It would trigger a national PTSD. We have less than zero interest in that kind of imagery.
I used to work in a place that had a department wide conference that brought in 100+ people from overseas. At the end there was a big party where the theme was music and people were encouraged to dress up as a musician.
Word had to go out that it was not cool to show up in blackface, as a significant number of foreign people were planning to do that.
Which makes sense--it is really the American history of blackface that makes it offensive, and even with similar traditions in other countries, the interpretation of the whole genre of pretending to be another race as offensive is not going to be universal.
Yup, pretty much. Netherlands in fact have their whole Christmas tradition of people using blackface.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:46:00 AM
I love this part in particular:
QuoteWhat the NRC episode reveals is that as the Black Lives Matter movement increases in visibility both in the United States and abroad, American discourse about race, privilege and media representations will inevitably bump up against and illuminate the state of race relations, identity and privilege in other countries.
The arrogant expectation that the US is to "illuminate" other countries about "race relations" (while being historically one of the biggest offenders on the planet, and certainly in the Western world) is preposterous.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 12:02:25 PM
The thread was a direct copy of this thread, only the word "Dutch" was replaced by "Tim" and "racist" was replaced by "dumb".
I'm well aware of that, and that is irrelevant. It was still created specifically to attack Tim.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 05:09:26 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
I'm willing to make a substantial wager that if you called a European black person a nigger, they'd punch you in the face just as soon as an American black person.
There are many words that, when used against another person in a similar situation, would generate a similar reaction. That is not to say that using the word in abstract in a non-English language publication in a non-English country should be seen as offensive.
The word "nigger" plays a special role in the US public discourse that other derogatory words such as "faggot", "cunt" or "kike" do not. It has become a taboo and no other word comes close. This is the cultural context I was talking about and it is justified by US history. It's similar to Germany banning the use of swastika - yet you do not see German newspapers writing articles about other countries' media using a swastika in their local publications.
Next time you are in London, perhaps you could test your theory that the n-word is uniquely evocative only in America.
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 02:04:16 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 05:09:26 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
I'm willing to make a substantial wager that if you called a European black person a nigger, they'd punch you in the face just as soon as an American black person.
There are many words that, when used against another person in a similar situation, would generate a similar reaction. That is not to say that using the word in abstract in a non-English language publication in a non-English country should be seen as offensive.
The word "nigger" plays a special role in the US public discourse that other derogatory words such as "faggot", "cunt" or "kike" do not. It has become a taboo and no other word comes close. This is the cultural context I was talking about and it is justified by US history. It's similar to Germany banning the use of swastika - yet you do not see German newspapers writing articles about other countries' media using a swastika in their local publications.
Next time you are in London, perhaps you could test your theory that the n-word is uniquely evocative only in America.
I wasn't aware that London is located in a non-English country.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 02:42:48 PM
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 02:04:16 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 05:09:26 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 04:29:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:10 AM
Americans don't understand that world does not revolve around their cultural context. Film at 11.
I'm willing to make a substantial wager that if you called a European black person a nigger, they'd punch you in the face just as soon as an American black person.
There are many words that, when used against another person in a similar situation, would generate a similar reaction. That is not to say that using the word in abstract in a non-English language publication in a non-English country should be seen as offensive.
The word "nigger" plays a special role in the US public discourse that other derogatory words such as "faggot", "cunt" or "kike" do not. It has become a taboo and no other word comes close. This is the cultural context I was talking about and it is justified by US history. It's similar to Germany banning the use of swastika - yet you do not see German newspapers writing articles about other countries' media using a swastika in their local publications.
Next time you are in London, perhaps you could test your theory that the n-word is uniquely evocative only in America.
I wasn't aware that London is located in a non-English country.
Were you unaware that London is not located in the US?
It's located in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London,_Burgundy :rolleyes:
Reread my post he was responding to.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 02:51:18 PM
Reread my post he was responding to.
It's still in a non-English country, called France.
I had a hard time understanding the english in London. :blush:
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 14, 2015, 12:58:12 PM
I doubt Curacao is really comparable to mainland The Netherlands.
Nor Indonesia, nor South Africa. The Dutch people that exploited other races left the country and mainly stayed away, so those left behind can claim moral superiority, just like other colonial European powers and other European nations that never had the chance.
Actually a lot of their subjects came to the Netherlands. They've more folks from their former colonies than us. Surinamians, Antillians, moluccians than we got Congolese.
http://europe.newsweek.com/new-report-exposes-huge-rise-racist-crime-europe-326929 (http://europe.newsweek.com/new-report-exposes-huge-rise-racist-crime-europe-326929)
QuoteA total of 47,210 racist crimes were reported across the European Union in 2013, with an anti-racism organisation warning that this is only the "tip of the iceberg", as many crimes go unreported.
Muslim women, people of African descent/black Europeans and Roma are reported to be most at risk of racially motivated crimes.
The report, the first of its kind which examines racist crimes based on civil society research as opposed to official state reports, was carried out by the European Network Against Racism (ENAR). Just one third of EU countries have recorded and published information on racist crimes for 2013.
The report says that there has been a considerable rise in violence over the last few years, attributing the increase to the economic crisis, and the growth of far-right parties and hate speech in political discourse. ENAR believes that the figures for 2014 will show even higher rates of racist crime, due to the conflict in Gaza last summer and the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris earlier this year.
Islamophobic crimes are on the increase in France, England and Wales, the report says. Among the more shocking findings is that Muslim women are more likely to be victims of Islamophobic crimes than men, and these crimes are often physical and very violent. According to the Collective Against Islamophobia in France (CCIF), 78% of Islamophobia victims in France were women in 2013.
The report gives the example of a 21-year-old Muslim woman, who was four months pregnant when she was attacked for wearing a jilbab in the Paris suburb of Argenteuil. She later suffered a miscarriage and lost her baby, according to her lawyer. The two male attackers kicked the woman in the stomach, tried to remove her headscarf and later cut off her hair, reportedly shouting anti-Islamic taunts at her.
The report also points out the problem of "under-qualification" of racist crimes, whereby the racist element to a crime is downplayed by authorities and prosecuted as a less serious crime as a result, something it says occurs particularly in Austria, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Estonia, France and Germany.
"What is shocking is how member states do not take into account the racist element in a crime," says Claire Fernandez, deputy director for policy for ENAR. "The racism element is completely disappearing, that's really a problem and where we call for more effort and training of police," she says.
The report highlights the case of a Nigerian migrant residing in Greece who was attacked and robbed. While Golden Dawn leaflets and other Nazi symbols were found in their possession, the police documenting the complaint only considered the crime as a robbery, since €300 were stolen.
An increase in anti-Semitic crimes is reported in five out of 26 countries – in Denmark, Germany, Hungary, the Netherlands and Sweden, while in many EU countries including Estonia, Greece, Italy, Poland, Sweden and the United Kingdom, the most violent physical attacks reported are perpetrated against black and Asian ethnic minorities.
In London, Asian people (from the Indian subcontinent) experience the highest mean rate of victimisation. In Sweden, 980 crimes with an Afrophobic motive were recorded and Swedish police reports of crimes with an Islamophobic motive increased by 69% from 2009 to 2013. There were cases of violence, abuse or incitement to violence against Roma in almost all EU member states.
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
QuoteENAR believes that the figures for 2014 will show even higher rates of racist crime, due to the conflict in Gaza last summer and the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris earlier this year.
So the attacks in early 2015 will affect the figures for 2014? That's curious. :hmm:
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Good thing you live in Missouri, the land of racial harmony and justice.
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Good thing you live in Missouri, the land of racial harmony and justice.
:lol:
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Good thing you live in Missouri, the land of racial harmony and justice.
heh
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 02:51:18 PM
Reread my post he was responding to.
What, this bit:
QuoteThe word "nigger" plays a special role in the US public discourse that other derogatory words such as "faggot", "cunt" or "kike" do not. It has become a taboo and no other word comes close. This is the cultural context I was talking about and it is justified by US history.
You seem to think it's only really a US thing. Maybe you just haven't met many black people?
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Good thing you live in Missouri, the land of racial harmony and justice.
All right, you are not getting soft with age after all.
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 04:18:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 02:51:18 PM
Reread my post he was responding to.
What, this bit:
QuoteThe word "nigger" plays a special role in the US public discourse that other derogatory words such as "faggot", "cunt" or "kike" do not. It has become a taboo and no other word comes close. This is the cultural context I was talking about and it is justified by US history.
You seem to think it's only really a US thing. Maybe you just haven't met many black people?
His best friends are black. :angry:
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 02:04:16 PM
Next time you are in London, perhaps you could test your theory that the n-word is uniquely evocative only in America.
Conveniently, garbon is in London and you can test on him. :P
I'll throw a punch!
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Ferguson, Ohio.
And most of us know how to tell who's a Jew. We're all Nazis, remember?
Ohio?
Anyway, how does pointing out race issues in the US have anything to do with whatever random point Raz was making?
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Good thing you live in Missouri, the land of racial harmony and justice.
It is a good thing. I'd much rather be Black in Missouri then a minority group in Europe.
Quote from: lustindarkness on August 14, 2015, 03:10:52 PM
I had a hard time understanding the english in London. :blush:
I thought the English is London is the easiest to understand :bowler:
Quote from: Norgy on August 14, 2015, 05:57:32 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can stil commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Ferguson, Ohio.
And most of us know how to tell who's a Jew. We're all Nazis, remember?
Norgy don't forget it's your turn to bring the gasoline for this week's pogrom.
If he can find it.
Quote from: Warspite on August 14, 2015, 04:18:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2015, 02:51:18 PM
Reread my post he was responding to.
What, this bit:
QuoteThe word "nigger" plays a special role in the US public discourse that other derogatory words such as "faggot", "cunt" or "kike" do not. It has become a taboo and no other word comes close. This is the cultural context I was talking about and it is justified by US history.
You seem to think it's only really a US thing. Maybe you just haven't met many black people?
In the sense of the word being a taboo and not being capable of being used in any context without the user being branded as racist? Yes, I do think it's a US thing.
As I said, calling someone a "nigger" would be seen as offensive, as it would be to call someone a "faggot", a "cunt" or a "kike". But each of these words could be used in printed media when used as a quotation or to illustrate a point about prejudice.
In the US, in a predominant number of cases, even when talking about someone else using the word, or discussing its use in a neutral or abstract manner, people refrain from saying the word "nigger" and instead use an expression "the n-word". That is unusual outside of kindergartens and public broadcast for pretty much every other word (for example, I can see someone like Bill Maher or John Oliver using the words "cunt", "fuck" or even "faggot" or "kike" - but not "nigger" - on their programs). So, my point is that Americans have an unusual relation with that word (one that is, probably to a degree, justified by their unusual relationship to institutionalised racism and the history of slavery).
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 14, 2015, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 10:45:50 AM
Yep. Maybe even by him.
Yes, but by me.
He can call Tim a dumbass in threads all he wants. However, I'm not going to stand for him or anyone else starting threads specifically to do that.
What's going on?
Quote from: Razgovory link=topic=13187.msg899999#msg899999
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
'Still'?
Don't confuse modern anti semitism with classic anti semitism (in Western Europe anyway).
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
I love the fact that Raz is singlehandedly running two most active Languish discussions at the moment and people still try to convince him. :D
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2015, 03:12:19 AM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 14, 2015, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 10:45:50 AM
Yep. Maybe even by him.
Yes, but by me.
He can call Tim a dumbass in threads all he wants. However, I'm not going to stand for him or anyone else starting threads specifically to do that.
What's going on?
Tim = He-Man? :o
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory link=topic=13187.msg899999#msg899999
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
'Still'?
Don't confuse modern anti semitism with classic anti semitism (in Western Europe anyway).
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Got a source to back up that stat?
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 08:54:02 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory link=topic=13187.msg899999#msg899999
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
'Still'?
Don't confuse modern anti semitism with classic anti semitism (in Western Europe anyway).
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Got a source to back up that stat?
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/01/22/379119380/for-many-french-jews-anti-semitism-has-a-clear-source
http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/05/13/study-exposes-depth-of-muslim-antisemitism-in-europe/
I'm saying nothing radical really.
The far right is concerned more with Muslims and other visible minorities than Jews.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 06:39:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Good thing you live in Missouri, the land of racial harmony and justice.
It is a good thing. I'd much rather be Black in Missouri then a minority group in Europe.
Why? Is being in our prisons amazing? Our amazing public school system?
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 10:14:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 08:54:02 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory link=topic=13187.msg899999#msg899999
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
'Still'?
Don't confuse modern anti semitism with classic anti semitism (in Western Europe anyway).
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Got a source to back up that stat?
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/01/22/379119380/for-many-french-jews-anti-semitism-has-a-clear-source (http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/01/22/379119380/for-many-french-jews-anti-semitism-has-a-clear-source)
http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/05/13/study-exposes-depth-of-muslim-antisemitism-in-europe/ (http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/05/13/study-exposes-depth-of-muslim-antisemitism-in-europe/)
I'm saying nothing radical really.
The far right is concerned more with Muslims and other visible minorities than Jews.
Nope. Nowhere does it say that 99% of antisemitism is the fault of Muslims.
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Suggesting that if they were bona fide Israelis they would deserve what they get? :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2015, 01:23:23 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 06:39:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Good thing you live in Missouri, the land of racial harmony and justice.
It is a good thing. I'd much rather be Black in Missouri then a minority group in Europe.
Why? Is being in our prisons amazing? Our amazing public school system?
Because there is no equivalent in Missouri to the Front National, the Lega Nord, or the Freedom party in Austria. Because blacks have citizenship in the country they are born in unlike say Ethnic Russians in Latvia or Estonia. No Ethnic Cleansing like in Croatia. No government attacks on Blacks like the Roma suffer.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 03:17:29 PM
Because there is no equivalent in Missouri to the Front National, the Lega Nord, or the Freedom party in Austria.
Oh there absolutely would be if our system of government had lots of small parties like that. But our big tents enable all these people to find homes in our two main parties. But wait didn't you already claim the Libertarians were full of these people? It is funny to you the non-Democrats in the US are hateful racists until you they are not for when you need to attack other countries and cultures.
QuoteBecause blacks have citizenship in the country they are born in unlike say Ethnic Russians in Latvia or Estonia. No Ethnic Cleansing like in Croatia. No government attacks on Blacks like the Roma suffer.
Well if you are going to include ethnic conflicts you might as well throw in most of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East in there. Ethnic conflict is a totally different animal than this and yes it is pretty great that we in the new world have a lot less of this. But it is pretty shit to be beating my chest about it because, you know, we have done all of those things to minorities in the past.
Quiet, Valmy. Whose side are you on anyway? :yeahright:
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 03:17:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2015, 01:23:23 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 06:39:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2015, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
Good thing you live in Missouri, the land of racial harmony and justice.
It is a good thing. I'd much rather be Black in Missouri then a minority group in Europe.
Why? Is being in our prisons amazing? Our amazing public school system?
Because there is no equivalent in Missouri to the Front National, the Lega Nord, or the Freedom party in Austria. Because blacks have citizenship in the country they are born in unlike say Ethnic Russians in Latvia or Estonia. No Ethnic Cleansing like in Croatia. No government attacks on Blacks like the Roma suffer.
Ethnic Russians (mostly) have citizenships in those countries, unless they want to keep their Russian one. Dual citizenships are rare in Europe. Their claims to have their language recognised are refuted, though. Then again, the Balts were among Hitler's most willing accomplices outside the Croats and Ukrainians. And the Flemish. So you must've read at least one history book.
Ethnic cleansing in Croatia? What the hell are you on, man? Unless you are counting the Ustashe, which was 70 years ago, the Serbs did most of the cleansing during the civil wars in Yugoslavia.
The treatment of the Roma is shameful, I agree.
If that is supposed to be a coherent argument about how terrible Europe is, you should've at least taken into account the enormous failure of the EU and other European countries to actually help refugees from Syria and those migrants crossing the Med from North Africa.
Your point that racism exists in Europe is valid. Your argument is incoherent and incredibly juvenile, though.
Quote from: Norgy on August 15, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
Your point that racism exists in Europe is valid. Your argument is incoherent and incredibly juvenile, though.
Just like his argument that I am somehow some kind of "Libertarian," except for the "valid" part. :lol:
Quote from: Norgy on August 15, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
Ethnic Russians (mostly) have citizenships in those countries, unless they want to keep their Russian one. Dual citizenships are rare in Europe. Their claims to have their language recognised are refuted, though. Then again, the Balts were among Hitler's most willing accomplices outside the Croats and Ukrainians. And the Flemish. So you must've read at least one history book.
Ethnic cleansing in Croatia? What the hell are you on, man? Unless you are counting the Ustashe, which was 70 years ago, the Serbs did most of the cleansing during the civil wars in Yugoslavia.
The treatment of the Roma is shameful, I agree.
If that is supposed to be a coherent argument about how terrible Europe is, you should've at least taken into account the enormous failure of the EU and other European countries to actually help refugees from Syria and those migrants crossing the Med from North Africa.
Your point that racism exists in Europe is valid. Your argument is incoherent and incredibly juvenile, though.
Ethnic cleansing in Croatia in the 1990's. Now a member in the EU. Countries like Latvia have a large number of Russians who were born in those countries but can't get Latvian citizenship because must first pass a citizenship test in a language they don't know. Also part of the EU.
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2015, 04:10:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 03:17:29 PM
Because there is no equivalent in Missouri to the Front National, the Lega Nord, or the Freedom party in Austria.
Oh there absolutely would be if our system of government had lots of small parties like that. But our big tents enable all these people to find homes in our two main parties. But wait didn't you already claim the Libertarians were full of these people? It is funny to you the non-Democrats in the US are hateful racists until you they are not for when you need to attack other countries and cultures.
QuoteBecause blacks have citizenship in the country they are born in unlike say Ethnic Russians in Latvia or Estonia. No Ethnic Cleansing like in Croatia. No government attacks on Blacks like the Roma suffer.
Well if you are going to include ethnic conflicts you might as well throw in most of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East in there. Ethnic conflict is a totally different animal than this and yes it is pretty great that we in the new world have a lot less of this. But it is pretty shit to be beating my chest about it because, you know, we have done all of those things to minorities in the past.
Libertarian and constitutional party get like 1% of the vote. Freedom party and National front have been major political parties. And are you seriously going to consider some protests in a small suburb of St. Louis similar to the refugee crisis that occurred in the 1990's?
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2015, 04:10:15 PM
But it is pretty shit to be beating my chest about it because, you know, we have done all of those things to minorities in the past.
So you can't take pride in what you have now because of what your forefathers did?
Let's keep in mind what start this attack on Raz. I was responding to Marty's statements that the US is in no position to lecture Europeans on race relations. And while I deplore the news letter that former presidential Libertarian Presidential candidate put out, they were just news letters. At the same time those documents were produced Europeans were slaughtering one another on the basis of ethnicity in the Balkans while the rest of Europe was either incapable or unwilling to do something without US help in the situation. Not exactly comparable situations.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: Norgy on August 15, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
Ethnic Russians (mostly) have citizenships in those countries, unless they want to keep their Russian one. Dual citizenships are rare in Europe. Their claims to have their language recognised are refuted, though. Then again, the Balts were among Hitler's most willing accomplices outside the Croats and Ukrainians. And the Flemish. So you must've read at least one history book.
Ethnic cleansing in Croatia? What the hell are you on, man? Unless you are counting the Ustashe, which was 70 years ago, the Serbs did most of the cleansing during the civil wars in Yugoslavia.
The treatment of the Roma is shameful, I agree.
If that is supposed to be a coherent argument about how terrible Europe is, you should've at least taken into account the enormous failure of the EU and other European countries to actually help refugees from Syria and those migrants crossing the Med from North Africa.
Your point that racism exists in Europe is valid. Your argument is incoherent and incredibly juvenile, though.
Ethnic cleansing in Croatia in the 1990's. Now a member in the EU. Countries like Latvia have a large number of Russians who were born in those countries but can't get Latvian citizenship because must first pass a citizenship test in a language they don't know. Also part of the EU.
Did you ever hear of the Krajina Republic?
Raz, for your own good, stop making silly arguments.
I'm not certain why pointing out European war criminals demonstrates how Europeans are so good on race issues. Please explain that one to me.
I am not pointing out war criminals, I am trying to get you to realise that in Yugoslavia, there was a spread of ethnicities.
If you are going to use the WORST examples of Europe, we'll continue to use your lack of civil rights for blacks up until RFK/LBJ, the Jim Crow laws and indeed that the southern part of your varied country seceded on the issue of slavery.
In the end, it's sort of useless to point fingers. Immigrants from Europe sort of eradicated the real inhabitants of North America, and yet here you are.
You are a European. White and from a previous generation of genocidal people who couldn't hack it in the Old World.
Quote from: Norgy on August 15, 2015, 07:10:38 PM
I am not pointing out war criminals, I am trying to get you to realise that in Yugoslavia, there was a spread of ethnicities.
If you are going to use the WORST examples of Europe, we'll continue to use your lack of civil rights for blacks up until RFK/LBJ, the Jim Crow laws and indeed that the southern part of your varied country seceded on the issue of slavery.
In the end, it's sort of useless to point fingers. Immigrants from Europe sort of eradicated the real inhabitants of North America, and yet here you are.
You are a European. White and from a previous generation of genocidal people who couldn't hack it in the Old World.
He's not using the WORST examples from Europe, he's using relatively limited examples of ethnically based injustices from the last quarter century or so. For the WORST examples, he'd have to go back 70 years or so. And you don't have much room to talk about that if you want to go back 50/70/150 years in our history.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 02:50:36 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 10:14:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 08:54:02 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory link=topic=13187.msg899999#msg899999
You guys are so nice in Europe. I'm impressed that you can still commit anti-Semitic crimes in Europe, you have to look really hard for Jews to attack.
'Still'?
Don't confuse modern anti semitism with classic anti semitism (in Western Europe anyway).
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Got a source to back up that stat?
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/01/22/379119380/for-many-french-jews-anti-semitism-has-a-clear-source (http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/01/22/379119380/for-many-french-jews-anti-semitism-has-a-clear-source)
http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/05/13/study-exposes-depth-of-muslim-antisemitism-in-europe/ (http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/05/13/study-exposes-depth-of-muslim-antisemitism-in-europe/)
I'm saying nothing radical really.
The far right is concerned more with Muslims and other visible minorities than Jews.
Nope. Nowhere does it say that 99% of antisemitism is the fault of Muslims.
Try clicking on the links. It helps.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2015, 03:05:53 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Suggesting that if they were bona fide Israelis they would deserve what they get? :hmm:
Not at all.
Suggesting the attackers are fucking idiots who don't even know what they're attacking - yes
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 07:24:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 02:50:36 PM
Nope. Nowhere does it say that 99% of antisemitism is the fault of Muslims.
Try clicking on the links. It helps.
The only 99 in either article is the two middle numbers in "the 1990s" in the middle of the third paragraph of the second article.
Try clicking on those links and doing the search yourself. Maybe you meant two other articles?
Quote from: Norgy on August 15, 2015, 07:10:38 PM
I am not pointing out war criminals, I am trying to get you to realise that in Yugoslavia, there was a spread of ethnicities.
If you are going to use the WORST examples of Europe, we'll continue to use your lack of civil rights for blacks up until RFK/LBJ, the Jim Crow laws and indeed that the southern part of your varied country seceded on the issue of slavery.
In the end, it's sort of useless to point fingers. Immigrants from Europe sort of eradicated the real inhabitants of North America, and yet here you are.
You are a European. White and from a previous generation of genocidal people who couldn't hack it in the Old World.
THis is true, which is why I find it bizarre that Euroes would lecture Americans about slavery or race - it's not like those things were invented when they Europeans arrived in America.
They brought it with them - so any holier than thou preaching really makes no sense at all - even less than usual, if fact.
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Wow....
Just....wow.
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2015, 10:58:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Wow....
Just....wow.
Aren't you going to "wow just wow" any of the Raz's posts? His posts are 100 times more ridiculous than Tyr's.
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2015, 10:56:39 PM
Quote from: Norgy on August 15, 2015, 07:10:38 PM
I am not pointing out war criminals, I am trying to get you to realise that in Yugoslavia, there was a spread of ethnicities.
If you are going to use the WORST examples of Europe, we'll continue to use your lack of civil rights for blacks up until RFK/LBJ, the Jim Crow laws and indeed that the southern part of your varied country seceded on the issue of slavery.
In the end, it's sort of useless to point fingers. Immigrants from Europe sort of eradicated the real inhabitants of North America, and yet here you are.
You are a European. White and from a previous generation of genocidal people who couldn't hack it in the Old World.
THis is true, which is why I find it bizarre that Euroes would lecture Americans about slavery or race - it's not like those things were invented when they Europeans arrived in America.
They brought it with them - so any holier than thou preaching really makes no sense at all - even less than usual, if fact.
"They"?
That would be like blaming Jews for the atrocities committed by Christians - after all "they" created Christianity.
I find it fascinating that there is this discourse from people like you which not only somehow places the blame for American atrocities at Europeans' feet (which is arguable, given that the practice of slavery flourished in the US the most only after the American Revolution and when European powers were banning it in their colonies; similarly, the most egregious acts of Native American genocide were committed under the stars and stripes, not the union Jack) but also somehow imply these evil Europeans somehow imposed these on the peace loving American people.
And for the record, the argument in this thread did not start with "Europeans lecturing Americans on slavery and race" - it started with a preposterous claim by Languish's resident moron that Dutch are unrepentant racist assholes, which generated a kind of a "pot calling the kettle black" response.
And, Berkut, you are the most milky whitey white ass of an American I ever met - if race relations were so good in the US, you would have at least a mix of other ethnic groups in you. As it is, not only you are European, your ancestors seem to have preserved your "racial purity" with an impressive efficiency.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 12:46:33 AM
And, Berkut, you are the most milky whitey white ass of an American I ever met - if race relations were so good in the US, you would have at least a mix of other ethnic groups in you. As it is, not only you are European, your ancestors seem to have preserved your "racial purity" with an impressive efficiency.
Wow.
Just wow.
You should at least try other games.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 12:36:04 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2015, 10:56:39 PM
Quote from: Norgy on August 15, 2015, 07:10:38 PM
I am not pointing out war criminals, I am trying to get you to realise that in Yugoslavia, there was a spread of ethnicities.
If you are going to use the WORST examples of Europe, we'll continue to use your lack of civil rights for blacks up until RFK/LBJ, the Jim Crow laws and indeed that the southern part of your varied country seceded on the issue of slavery.
In the end, it's sort of useless to point fingers. Immigrants from Europe sort of eradicated the real inhabitants of North America, and yet here you are.
You are a European. White and from a previous generation of genocidal people who couldn't hack it in the Old World.
THis is true, which is why I find it bizarre that Euroes would lecture Americans about slavery or race - it's not like those things were invented when they Europeans arrived in America.
They brought it with them - so any holier than thou preaching really makes no sense at all - even less than usual, if fact.
"They"?
That would be like blaming Jews for the atrocities committed by Christians - after all "they" created Christianity.
Except that there is a distinct and clear disconnect between Jews and Christians, and "atrocities" committed by Christians...I don't recall blaming them on anyone, or feeling a need to assign this cute little blame game you love, so I don't see how it is relevant in any case.
Quote
I find it fascinating that there is this discourse from people like you which not only somehow places the blame for American atrocities at Europeans' feet
Errrh, no, I don't, actually. I don't really engage in that game you love so very much.
Quote
(which is arguable, given that the practice of slavery flourished in the US the most only after the American Revolution
So? Slavery was brought to the Americas by Europeans long before there was any social or political entity that could be called "American".
Quote
and when European powers were banning it in their colonies;
The ones who weren't engaged in capturing slaves and enslaving them - sure.
Quote
similarly, the most egregious acts of Native American genocide were committed under the stars and stripes, not the union Jack) but also somehow imply these evil Europeans somehow imposed these on the peace loving American people.
I made no such implication of course - you are letting your imagination run away with you.
The Europeans did not impose anything on the Americans, they were all complicit in a horrific practice together. Some ended it earlier for a variety of reasons, some ended it later, and some went on doing it in one form or another for a very, very long time. Some Americans dies in the thousands to stop it, and some Europeans happily went on slaving away long after many other Europeans decried the practice.
*I* don't feel any need to "blame" anyone for slavery - I understand pretty well how it came about, and what forces drove it to spread, stabilize, and eventually be abolished.
The idea that there is any meaning to "blaming" entire groups for it in some ignorant, bigoted, and infantile manner is only made MORE ridiculous when you want to do so while somehow deciding that we should STOP looking for reasons at some point in time or geography that conveniently removes any responsibility from some imagined forefather of yours, rather than mine.
The entire argument is infantile.
Quote
And for the record, the argument in this thread did not start with "Europeans lecturing Americans on slavery and race" -
I wasn't commenting on the start of the argument, just the pile of stupid you were gleefully thrashing about in.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 12:32:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2015, 10:58:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Wow....
Just....wow.
Aren't you going to "wow just wow" any of the Raz's posts? His posts are 100 times more ridiculous than Tyr's.
That would require me to read them.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 12:46:33 AM
And, Berkut, you are the most milky whitey white ass of an American I ever met - if race relations were so good in the US, you would have at least a mix of other ethnic groups in you.
This is as strong an argument as you've made for how bad race relations are in the US. Surely your having met me and been able to accurately judge my ethnic makeup by how I look (racist much?) is a fine means of drawing your own conclusions about racial strife in America.
I can see now how you have come to such clear and well understood conclusion about American history with such excellent sources of data.
I won't make any similar guesses about your racial makeup, since when I met you I honestly spent exactly zero time or thought wondering about your racial purity. Clearly the same cannot be said about your interests.
Quote
As it is, not only you are European, your ancestors seem to have preserved your "racial purity" with an impressive efficiency.
Well, I can only be as "pure" as I was when those ancestors came over from racially diverse and integrated Europe, right?
Oops.
:huh:
Quote from: The Brain on August 16, 2015, 03:01:47 AM
You should at least try other games.
:D
BTW, how are things going with the American chick?
It sure is interesting how easily worked up Marty gets about race - the bearet suggestion that maybe Europeans might have any kind of work to do or concerns in regards to race gets him flying off the handle.
The entire thing is completely ridiculous of course - the idea of someone who lives in Poland, of all, places, wanting to play "Who has the nastiest historical record on racial atrocity" takes some astoundingly willful blinders.
But its ok, since there isn't any racism in Europe anymore, and certainly no anti-Semitism outside of silly Muslim kids confusing Jews and Israelis.
(There is something kind of ironic and depressing about Europeans using one minority group to dismiss bigotry and violence directed at another minority group).
Note: I would not be so ignorant as to make any kind of similar claims about the US - our problems of race are certainly very real, and not at all limited to some also easily racially or socially identified and vilified group. I am optimistic however that things will continue to improve, in no small part to the majority of people not engaging in making excuses and putting on blinders to the problem.
Quote from: grumbler on August 15, 2015, 08:35:24 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2015, 07:24:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 02:50:36 PM
Nope. Nowhere does it say that 99% of antisemitism is the fault of Muslims.
Try clicking on the links. It helps.
The only 99 in either article is the two middle numbers in "the 1990s" in the middle of the third paragraph of the second article.
Try clicking on those links and doing the search yourself. Maybe you meant two other articles?
:mellow:
Even for you.... You cannot possibly be serious.
If you were a non native speaker it would be forgivable but.... Wow.
Edit- ah. And raz was engaging in that idiocy too :bleeding:
Maybe you should try not using ridiculous exaggerations to make your point. :bowler:
It's called a figure of speech.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 16, 2015, 03:27:04 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 16, 2015, 03:01:47 AM
You should at least try other games.
:D
BTW, how are things going with the American chick?
She cooks for me. :)
Quote from: Tyr on August 16, 2015, 03:54:27 AM
It's called a figure of speech.
It's called bullshit hyperbole... when people are too polite to say "a lie."
"99%" is not a "figure of speech." If you were a non native speaker it would be forgivable to think so but.... Wow.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2015, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: Norgy on August 15, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
Ethnic Russians (mostly) have citizenships in those countries, unless they want to keep their Russian one. Dual citizenships are rare in Europe. Their claims to have their language recognised are refuted, though. Then again, the Balts were among Hitler's most willing accomplices outside the Croats and Ukrainians. And the Flemish. So you must've read at least one history book.
Ethnic cleansing in Croatia? What the hell are you on, man? Unless you are counting the Ustashe, which was 70 years ago, the Serbs did most of the cleansing during the civil wars in Yugoslavia.
The treatment of the Roma is shameful, I agree.
If that is supposed to be a coherent argument about how terrible Europe is, you should've at least taken into account the enormous failure of the EU and other European countries to actually help refugees from Syria and those migrants crossing the Med from North Africa.
Your point that racism exists in Europe is valid. Your argument is incoherent and incredibly juvenile, though.
Ethnic cleansing in Croatia in the 1990's. Now a member in the EU. Countries like Latvia have a large number of Russians who were born in those countries but can't get Latvian citizenship because must first pass a citizenship test in a language they don't know. Also part of the EU.
As part of EU membership accession, Croatia had to enact and implement a large number of measures on Serbian minority return. Serbs have played a politically significant role in coalitions in the post-Tudjman era.
But not really comparable with the US, given American has not had to go through highly destabilising post-Communist regime transition. There was nothing inevitable about the violent collapse of Yugoslavia, and the country pre-war was hardly known for discrimination and oppressed minorities (other than the Kosovars).
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 12:46:33 AM
And, Berkut, you are the most milky whitey white ass of an American I ever met - if race relations were so good in the US, you would have at least a mix of other ethnic groups in you. As it is, not only you are European, your ancestors seem to have preserved your "racial purity" with an impressive efficiency.
:XD: That's fucking hilarious.
Quote from: grumbler on August 16, 2015, 06:29:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 16, 2015, 03:54:27 AM
It's called a figure of speech.
It's called bullshit hyperbole... when people are too polite to say "a lie."
"99%" is not a "figure of speech." If you were a non native speaker it would be forgivable to think so but.... Wow.
Yes it is.
How can you not know that?
You're a moron.
Quote from: Tyr on August 16, 2015, 10:01:18 AM
Yes it is.
How can you not know that?
You're a moron.
A very persuasive argument! :lol:
Whether it is a figure of speech or not is immaterial.
What is material is the desire to dismiss a serious problem by pretending like it is nothing to worry about because it is just some silly Muslim kids, nothing to do with "Real" Europeans.
Because you know, anti-Semitism in Europe was gone before those dastardly Muslim teens came along!
Figure of speech or not, the sentiment the statement reflects is very disturbing. Right up there with Fox pundits saying racism is no longer an issue - that level of denial.
I don't know about other Western European countries, but at least this article from January this year from Telegraph (so a respectable daily and not a tabloid) about the situation in Britain seems to echo the sentiment voiced by Tyr:
QuoteThe rising tide of anti-Semitism
By Andrew Gilligan 8:55AM GMT 25 Jan 2015
At a Jewish school in north west London, the five-year-olds are being taught how to respond to a terrorist attack.
"We have regular drills for the children, and they know how to recognise the different alarm signals," says the head teacher. There is a permanent security guard on the premises, and each of the classrooms has been fitted with new locks so they can be "invacuated", their doors secured from inside to act as last-ditch defences between the pupils and a killer.
A few miles to the north, the Jewish Community Secondary School in Barnet, JCoSS, is protected by a security gatehouse and Downing Street-style car-bomb barriers.
In the wake of the anti-Semitic murders of four people in Paris, anxiety has risen so high that some parents have taken to social media, questioning the presence of Muslim cleaners at the school.
Last week Theresa May, the Home Secretary, warned about growing anti-Semitism in Britain. According to one survey this month, a quarter of all British adults agreed that Jews "chase money more than other people" and 45 per cent of British Jews feared their community, the second-largest in Europe, "may not have a future in Britain".
In one sense, the fear may be spiking too high. In London, home to most of the country's Jews, the police say that anti-Semitic incidents have not risen at all since Paris. In the fortnight before the killings, there were 10. In the fortnight after, there were nine.
The 45 per cent figure comes not from a professional poll – but from a survey publicised on Jewish community organisations' mailing lists and social media. Despite efforts to weight the results, the self- selecting nature of the respondents probably skewed the answers. The other poll was done by a professional pollster, but some of the questions seemed rather loaded.
Patrick Moriarty, the head teacher at JCoSS, is among many who cautions against the "lurid fears" expressed in those famous homes of calm and clear-thinking, Twitter and Facebook.
He has written to parents warning against creating "an atmosphere where fear is whipped up and where within the school building people are not able to trust each other ... I felt there was a need to come back to what this school stands for, what Judaism stands for in terms of tolerance, equality and respect, because otherwise the actions of extremists turn us all into extremists."
Yet there are broader problems, which should give greater cause for alarm. New figures next month are expected to show that 2014 saw a significant increase in anti-Semitic incidents.
In London alone last year, the Met recorded 358 anti-Semitic crimes, a rise of 121 per cent on the previous year's figure of 162. The Israel-Gaza conflict in July and August caused a large spike in anti- Semitic attacks.
Other figures, from the Community Security Trust to be published next month, are also expected to show a dramatic rise in anti-Semitic incidents.
Per head of population, there were four times more hate crimes against Jewish targets than against Muslims. One Jewish MP, Lee Scott, received five death threats.
"They were saying things like, 'You Jewish pig, we're going to stone you to death'," he says. "Always on the phone, and always on Monday evenings to my parliamentary office when they knew my staff had left."
In parts of Britain, this newspaper has found, anti-Semitism is open, unashamed – and supported by the taxpayer. Only 25 miles north of Barnet, in Luton, one of the town's main mosques, the Luton Islamic Centre, publishes statements on its website describing Jews as the "brethren of swine and pigs" and calling for "victory over the Jews and the rest of the enemies of Islam".
One text on the "Palestinian Crisis" asks: "How do the brethren of swine and pigs [Jews] have the upper hand over the best Ummah among all the other nations [Muslims]?"
Another text states: "The Jews strive their utmost to corrupt the beliefs, morals and manners of the Muslims."
After the Paris attacks, the mosque tweeted a lecture by Qadeer Baksh, its imam, saying that Muslims would be caused "much harm" by the "Christians and the Jews, the extremists among them".
But, surprisingly given its views, an organisation closely linked to the mosque has been awarded public money for projects to rehabilitate Muslim former offenders and to "work with young people" in Luton.
The Ethnic Minority Training Project, chaired by one of the mosque's trustees and run by an activist at the mosque, has received at least £75,000 from the local council, the Department for Work and Pensions, the EU and other bodies. According to the mosque's website, it is a "partner" in the project with the Bedfordshire Probation Service and The Mount, one of the local prisons.
Luton is not the only place where groups with alleged links to anti-Semites have collected a subsidy. In 2013, a charity called the Peace Giving Foundation received a lottery grant of £118,000 to run a programme "empowering ethnic minority women".
At the time, the Peace Giving Foundation shared directors (and continues to share an address) with the Islamic Education and Research Academy (IERA), which sends extremist speakers to mosques and university societies.
Abdurraheem Green, the founder and head of IERA, once demanded that a Jewish man be removed from his sight when preaching at Speaker's Corner.
He has also said that the Jewish homeland is a "myth" and British public opinion is "totally hostage to the Zionist-controlled media".
Other IERA speakers include Sheikh Abdullah Hakim Quick, who has called all Jews "filth". Past members of the group's advisory board are Hussain Yee, who blamed the Jews for 9/11, and Haitham al-Haddad, who described them as "the descendants of apes and pigs".
More than £39,000 of the lottery grant has already been paid. The Big Lottery Fund said last night that payment of the remaining £78,000 had been stopped pending an investigation into the Peace Giving Foundation's "connections".
One step back from the open bigotry of people like this, it has long been a favourite rhetorical device of anti-Semites to associate British Jews with the behaviour of the Israeli government.
As it happens, anti-Semitic incidents were already rising sharply in the first half of 2014, before the Israel-Gaza conflict began – but July, when the crisis started, saw an even bigger spike. That month, according to the London mayor's office for policing and crime, 95 per cent of all hate crime in the capital was directed against Jewish targets.
Given this, Jewish community leaders in north London say they are troubled by a letter from Helen King, assistant commissioner at Scotland Yard, to a local MP saying that supporters of both sides "are increasingly incensed by new incidents in Gaza", which has "ultimately led to an increase in anti- Semitic incidents and a corresponding rise in Islamophobic offences".
There have in fact been almost no attacks on Muslims by supporters of Israel, let alone a "corresponding rise".
At the 2010 election, Mr Scott and other "Zionist" MPs were targeted for attack leaflets, telephone canvassing and pickets by the Muslim Public Affairs Committee (MPAC), an extremist group which has often used the Z-word interchangeably with Israeli or Jewish (it described the Talmud as a "Zionist holy book", though it was written centuries before Zionism existed).
MPAC borrows the words of Abdullah Azzam, mentor to Osama bin Laden, to describe itself as a "vanguard" of those who "sacrifice their souls and their blood in order to bring victory to our ambitions and convictions".
Most of MPAC's boasting about its huge electoral influence can be easily exposed as blowhard lies, but it may indeed have helped change the outcome in strongly Muslim Bradford East.
The incumbent, Labour's Terry Rooney (not Jewish, but pro-Israeli) lost by 365 votes in the 2010 general election after MPAC distributed thousands of leaflets calling him a Zionist Islamophobe and "warmonger" who could not represent Muslims.
The winner, the Liberal Democrat David Ward, has fulfilled all MPAC's wildest hopes. In 2013, he was suspended from the Lib Dem parliamentary party after criticising "the Jews" for inflicting atrocities on the Palestinians and questioning Israel's right to exist.
During the Gaza conflict last year he stated: "If I lived in Gaza, would I fire a rocket? Probably yes." His response to Paris: "Je suis Palestinian."
Until January last year, Mr Ward employed MPAC's spokesman, Raza Nadim, as his constituency assistant.
Britain is one of the least anti-Semitic countries; only 7 per cent in the Pew global attitudes survey feel unfavourably towards Jews, the second-lowest figure in Europe.
Almost none of the incidents reported to the police involves violence. But for British Jews, the pricks of insecurity need not involve guns and bullets; they can come in small ways, such as Mr Ward's choice of staff and words, or the BBC News presenter who said on-air that Jewish donors to Labour "would be very much against the mansion tax".
And as Jeremy Apfel, chairman of Barnet Synagogue, says, "the immediate lesson from France is that failure to stamp out anti-Semitism and attacks on Jews inevitably leads to attacks on democracy itself; historically the Jews have merely served as the hors d'oeuvres".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11367966/The-rising-tide-of-anti-Semitism.html
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 01:35:09 PM
I don't know about other Western European countries, but at least this article from January this year from Telegraph (so a respectable daily and not a tabloid) about the situation in Britain seems to echo the sentiment voiced by Tyr:
<snip>
I don't doubt that a considerable amount of anti-Semitic sentiment in Europe comes from the Muslim community, nor that the UK is one of the least anti-Semitic countries in Europe, but neither of those add up to Tyr's contention that modern anti-Semites in Europe are almost exclusively Muslim.
Quote"the descendants of apes and pigs"
Delicious poo-slingers?
QuoteBritain is one of the least anti-Semitic countries; only 7 per cent in the Pew global attitudes survey feel unfavourably towards Jews, the second-lowest figure in Europe.
What's the percentage of Muslims in the UK? 5%?
Quote from: Tyr on August 16, 2015, 10:01:18 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 16, 2015, 06:29:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 16, 2015, 03:54:27 AM
It's called a figure of speech.
It's called bullshit hyperbole... when people are too polite to say "a lie."
"99%" is not a "figure of speech." If you were a non native speaker it would be forgivable to think so but.... Wow.
Yes it is.
How can you not know that?
You're a moron.
Okay, what is that particular figure of speech
called?
Quote from: The Brain on August 16, 2015, 02:09:15 PM
Quote"the descendants of apes and pigs"
Delicious poo-slingers?
QuoteBritain is one of the least anti-Semitic countries; only 7 per cent in the Pew global attitudes survey feel unfavourably towards Jews, the second-lowest figure in Europe.
What's the percentage of Muslims in the UK? 5%?
4.8% :D
Quote
A majority of respondents in a recent Polish national survey believe that there's a Jewish conspiracy to control international banking and the media. And 90% of these Poles say they've never met a Jew.
The national study, conducted by the Center for Research on Prejudice at Warsaw University, found that in Poland, the belief in a Jewish conspiracy remains high – 63% in 2013 – and relatively unchanged from 2009 when 65% of respondents held this belief.
The study also found an 8 percent increase in more traditional forms of anti-Semitism, including blaming Jews for the murder of Jesus Christ and the belief that Christian blood is used in Jewish rituals. Some 23% were found to hold such traditional, religious-based beliefs about Jews.
The study's findings were presented to the Polish Sejm, or parliament, on January 9 by Michal Bilewicz, director of the Center for Research on Prejudice. Bilewicz, an assistant professor on the faculty of psychology at the University of Warsaw, is co-author of the report.
In an email, Bilewicz said that most members of the Polish parliament praised the study and many suggested education measures to fight prejudice. The one skeptical voice, he said, was that of Dorota Arciszewska-Mielewczyk, a center-right Law and Justice Party member, who "suggested that Polish Jews are represented by the Knesset rather than the Polish parliament."
In January 13 phone interview, Arciszewska-Mielewczyk claimed her remarks were taken out of context. Speaking through an interpreter, she said she had expressed her hope that representatives from the Knesset would come to Poland and join the campaign to stop calling the Nazi camps in Poland "Polish concentration camps" — a common complaint among Poles, especially on the right, who take umbrage when camps set up and operated during World War II by the German regime in occupied Poland are labeled as Polish.
According to Arciszewska-Mielewczyk, a Jewish group that was present when she spoke had a "negative and allergic reaction" to her remarks. They also claimed "they had nothing to do with the Knesset," she said, adding that she then asked for clarification about the Knesset's status as a body that represents the Jewish nation worldwide.
Arciszewska-Mielewczyk's remarks reflect a belief common in Poland that Israel's national legislature represents all Jews.
Geographically, the new study's findings suggest that the provinces of Lublin and Lodz in southeastern Poland are the most anti-Semitic regions of the country. This is where the largest Jewish communities existed before the war, and where the ruins of many synagogues still stand, though virtually no Jews live there today.
"It's worse there than in the western parts of Poland," Bilewicz told the Forward in a telephone interview.
Bilewicz noted that hundreds of cemeteries in this region of Poland have been desecrated and proposed that the high level of anti-Semitism in this part of Poland helped explain why — a kind of anti-Semitism without Jews.
"We know that it is based on a very deep anti-Semitism that is so embedded in people's minds that they don't consider it problematic," he said.
Before the Holocaust there were 3.2 million Jews in Poland, compared with an estimated 10,000 Jews today.
According to Zuzanna Radzik, a devout Catholic who supervises the School of Dialogue, a program that seeks to recapture the lost history of the Jewish presence in Poland, the biggest news in the center's survey was the increase in traditional anti-Semitism. She believes it's always existed, but that Poles now feel more comfortable expressing it.
Poland's archly conservative Roman Catholic Church has historically been blamed for perpetuating traditional forms of anti-Semitism. Bilewicz's study, however, finds that anti-Semitism is equally common among believers and those who are not religious. Furthermore, church attendance has declined slightly between 2009 and 2013, a period during which the proportion of people holding traditional anti-Semitic beliefs has risen.
Professor Joanna Tokarska-Bakir, a cultural anthropologist at the Polish Academy of Sciences, who has been investigating the persistence of blood libel beliefs in eastern Poland, argued that the Church nevertheless continues to play a key role. In an email to the Forward, Tokarska-Bakir contended that in school, where Catholic religious classes were reinstituted after the fall of Communism in 1989, students are exposed to lessons that are permeated with anti-Semitic themes.
Despite these high levels of anti-Semitism, there are signs of hope.
The official opening of the new Museum of the History of Polish Jews is scheduled for September 2014. The City of Warsaw and the Ministry of Culture and National Heritage financed its construction. The museum's exhibits show the Jewish contributions to Polish life during the more than 1,000 years that Jews have lived in Poland. Workshops for students are already underway.
Radzik's School of Dialogue also seeks to recover Poland's Jewish past. It deploys educators throughout Poland to make students aware of the places in their towns where Jews once lived and worked, and where there were synagogues and mikvehs. The school also teaches young Poles about Judaism.
The opening of a new Jewish Community Center in Warsaw last October was another step toward the revival of Jewish life in Poland
Read more: http://forward.com/news/world/191155/poland-poll-reveals-stubborn-anti-semitism-amid-je/#ixzz3j0WJUuf6
http://forward.com/news/world/191155/poland-poll-reveals-stubborn-anti-semitism-amid-je/
Must be a lot of undocumented Muslims in that country.
Yes, Poles are antisemitic. I thought Tyr was talking about Western Europe, though. :huh:
"A Pole is only happy when he is grinding the bones of a Jew beneath his boots."
Incidentally, the article has rather poor fact checking. For example:
QuoteGeographically, the new study's findings suggest that the provinces of Lublin and Lodz in southeastern Poland are the most anti-Semitic regions of the country.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.polonia.centrumhotele.pl%2Fbiblioteka%2Ffile%2F_mapa_polski_lodz.gif&hash=378f67c929f22605a46174a63ea6f61c9d02379b)
QuoteOkay, what is that particular figure of speech called?
Figures of speech have names? :huh:
Err... Thomas ?
Quote from: Berkut on August 16, 2015, 11:20:12 AM
Whether it is a figure of speech or not is immaterial.
What is material is the desire to dismiss a serious problem by pretending like it is nothing to worry about because it is just some silly Muslim kids, nothing to do with "Real" Europeans.
Because you know, anti-Semitism in Europe was gone before those dastardly Muslim teens came along!
Figure of speech or not, the sentiment the statement reflects is very disturbing. Right up there with Fox pundits saying racism is no longer an issue - that level of denial.
I didn't say it was nothing to worry about at all.
Misunderstanding the situation in such a way that you equate modern anti semitism mostly with nazis however is wrong. It is a mistake which only threatens to make the situation worse- focussing anti semitism efforts on groups that already don't really care about Jews rather than targeting the true source of the problem.
Even amongst white people I would imagine that these days the stupider segments of the left are more of a problem than the far right.
Quote from: Tyr on August 16, 2015, 03:37:18 PM
Figures of speech have names? :huh:
Err... Thomas ?
Yep. And none of them are called "Thomas". Where were you in Rhetoric class?
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
Yes, Poles are antisemitic. I thought Tyr was talking about Western Europe, though. :huh:
I have always been talking about Europeans. I don't know what Tyr is talking about, and it appears he doesn't either.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 01:35:09 PM
I don't know about other Western European countries, but at least this article from January this year from Telegraph (so a respectable daily and not a tabloid) about the situation in Britain seems to echo the sentiment voiced by Tyr:
[Snip]
Nope. Don't see his 99% figure there, either.
Are Muslims responsible for, perhaps, a majority (or even a vast majority) of anti-Semitic attacks? Perhaps. But that's not Tyr's position. His position is that they are responsible for
99% of them.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 01:35:09 PM
The winner, the Liberal Democrat David Ward, has fulfilled all MPAC's wildest hopes. In 2013, he was suspended from the Lib Dem parliamentary party after criticising "the Jews" for inflicting atrocities on the Palestinians and questioning Israel's right to exist.
During the Gaza conflict last year he stated: "If I lived in Gaza, would I fire a rocket? Probably yes." His response to Paris: "Je suis Palestinian."
Ok, I'm convinced, it's just a problem with Muslims.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 02:28:32 PM
Incidentally, the article has rather poor fact checking. For example:
QuoteGeographically, the new study's findings suggest that the provinces of Lublin and Lodz in southeastern Poland are the most anti-Semitic regions of the country.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.polonia.centrumhotele.pl%2Fbiblioteka%2Ffile%2F_mapa_polski_lodz.gif&hash=378f67c929f22605a46174a63ea6f61c9d02379b)
Looks southeast to me. :sleep:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vacation2usa.com%2Fi2map_missouri.png&hash=42a9d06bbe3dc294b75be310c45904c8b09c59c0)
The Ferguson thing is a terrible tragedy. When I first heard about it, the story was simply a white cop shooting a black teenager who was trying to surrender. I thought it merited close examination and was prepared to believe witnesses claiming the young man was shot in cold blood. I wasn't the only one, people across the country jumped on board. As later facts came out the story changed quite a bit. The police officer in question stopped Mr. Brown because he fit the description of a robbery suspect (which wasn't coincidental as Mr. Brown had committed the robbery). Mr. Brown made some extremely poor choices when he punched the officer in the head and tried to steal his side arm. When he failed to gain control of the fire arm (and was lightly injured in the scuffle when the gun went off), Mr. Brown fled and the Police officer shot at him. I don't understand law that well, but looking at the laws about when a cop can or can not shoot it seems that the criteria had been met to use deadly force. If it hasn't, it so close as to create sufficient reasonable doubt that you would never convict the officer. The witness testimony that Mr. Brown was trying to surrender came from one witness who recanted his testimony (it was Mike Brown's friend who bolted at soon as the police officer stopped, which sort of precludes him seeing what exactly was going on).
This is not a good thing. It is always better when nobody is killed. It would have been better if the officer had not shot at the fleeing suspect. In my humble opinion the shooting was legal and not motivated by racism (despite enormous scrutiny there hasn't been much to link the officer with racism (which is odd actually since people up there are pretty nasty when it comes to race). I agree that police profiling and brutality are serious problems in America. This just wasn't one of those cases. Unfortunately far many people had already invested themselves in the case and were unwilling to back out. The result is the poor city of Ferguson is going to die. Housing prices have fallen dramatically. A place that was 80K a few years ago is now at 20K. Insurance rates have risen for business due to the disgraceful looting by protesters.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 16, 2015, 03:53:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
Yes, Poles are antisemitic. I thought Tyr was talking about Western Europe, though. :huh:
I have always been talking about Europeans. I don't know what Tyr is talking about, and it appears he doesn't either.
Perhaps if you actually read his posts, you would know what he is talking about:
Quote'Still'?
Don't confuse modern anti semitism with classic anti semitism (in Western Europe anyway).
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
Quote from: grumbler on August 16, 2015, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 01:35:09 PM
I don't know about other Western European countries, but at least this article from January this year from Telegraph (so a respectable daily and not a tabloid) about the situation in Britain seems to echo the sentiment voiced by Tyr:
[Snip]
Nope. Don't see his 99% figure there, either.
Are Muslims responsible for, perhaps, a majority (or even a vast majority) of anti-Semitic attacks? Perhaps. But that's not Tyr's position. His position is that they are responsible for 99% of them.
Yes, we already know you are not capable of understanding anything but literal.
Honest question: do you read poetry?
Quote from: Razgovory on August 16, 2015, 05:38:31 PM
The Ferguson thing is a terrible tragedy. When I first heard about it, the story was simply a white cop shooting a black teenager who was trying to surrender. I thought it merited close examination and was prepared to believe witnesses claiming the young man was shot in cold blood. I wasn't the only one, people across the country jumped on board. As later facts came out the story changed quite a bit. The police officer in question stopped Mr. Brown because he fit the description of a robbery suspect (which wasn't coincidental as Mr. Brown had committed the robbery). Mr. Brown made some extremely poor choices when he punched the officer in the head and tried to steal his side arm. When he failed to gain control of the fire arm (and was lightly injured in the scuffle when the gun went off), Mr. Brown fled and the Police officer shot at him. I don't understand law that well, but looking at the laws about when a cop can or can not shoot it seems that the criteria had been met to use deadly force. If it hasn't, it so close as to create sufficient reasonable doubt that you would never convict the officer. The witness testimony that Mr. Brown was trying to surrender came from one witness who recanted his testimony (it was Mike Brown's friend who bolted at soon as the police officer stopped, which sort of precludes him seeing what exactly was going on).
This is not a good thing. It is always better when nobody is killed. It would have been better if the officer had not shot at the fleeing suspect. In my humble opinion the shooting was legal and not motivated by racism (despite enormous scrutiny there hasn't been much to link the officer with racism (which is odd actually since people up there are pretty nasty when it comes to race). I agree that police profiling and brutality are serious problems in America. This just wasn't one of those cases. Unfortunately far many people had already invested themselves in the case and were unwilling to back out. The result is the poor city of Ferguson is going to die. Housing prices have fallen dramatically. A place that was 80K a few years ago is now at 20K. Insurance rates have risen for business due to the disgraceful looting by protesters.
Where did that come from?
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 01:07:15 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 16, 2015, 03:53:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
Yes, Poles are antisemitic. I thought Tyr was talking about Western Europe, though. :huh:
I have always been talking about Europeans. I don't know what Tyr is talking about, and it appears he doesn't either.
Perhaps if you actually read his posts, you would know what he is talking about:
Quote'Still'?
Don't confuse modern anti semitism with classic anti semitism (in Western Europe anyway).
99% of modern anti semitism is ignorant semi educated Muslim kids who can't tell the difference between a Jew and an Israeli.
He was responding to me :lol: You are such a nitwit. Anyway, you want anti-antisemitism in Just Western Europe? Fine. France 37% of the populace show antisemitic tendencies, in Germany it's 27%. http://global100.adl.org/#map/weurope You have a lot of secret Muslims if this just a Muslim problem.
The survey has been criticised for being biased (essentially, you were considered antisemitic if you answered "probably true" to just one of those questions). Besides, this started by you arguing about antisemitic crimes. I still think Tyr was right and majority of antisemitic crimes in Western Europe are perpetrated by Muslims, even if some people may have questionable views.
Besides, if you consider the survey to be credible, the trends become much more visible if you look at regional averages:
The Americas - 19%
Western Europe - 24%
Eastern Europe - 34%
Middle East and North Africa - 74%
Sub-Saharan Africa - 23%
Asia - 22%
Oceania - 12%
Hint: one of these regions is inhabited predominantly by Muslims.
But, as I said, I am not sure the survey is really that credible. For example, for Poland the 2014 number is 45%, but in 2015 it is down to 37%. This is too much of a drop to be explained away by a popular attitude shift, so it seems the margin of error for these results is quite big.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Antisemitism (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Antisemitism)
QuoteIn 2009, however, "white" attacks [in the UK] dropped to 48% and "Asian" or "Arab" attacks jumped to 43%.
During the month of January 2009, in the midst of Operation Cast Lead, "Asian" and "Arab" attackers accounted for fully 54% of incidents, although the Muslim community numbers just 4% of the general population.[2]
So Tyr is "right" in the sense that Muslims were responsible for the majority of attacks(which nobody really disputed) but wrong in the implication that attacks by non-Muslims were negligible.
Would be interesting to see how this splits in violent attacks - I believe UK has a very broad definition of an attack (it would include things that would be covered by free speech in the US) so it may be misleading to think of these as violence.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 17, 2015, 04:18:37 AM
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Antisemitism (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Antisemitism)
QuoteIn 2009, however, "white" attacks [in the UK] dropped to 48% and "Asian" or "Arab" attacks jumped to 43%.
During the month of January 2009, in the midst of Operation Cast Lead, "Asian" and "Arab" attackers accounted for fully 54% of incidents, although the Muslim community numbers just 4% of the general population.[2]
So Tyr is "right" in the sense that Muslims were responsible for the majority of attacks(which nobody really disputed) but wrong in the implication that attacks by non-Muslims were negligible.
My money says that Tyr and Marti will now trim their sails to argue that this is what Tyr said all along.
I find it incredibly funny that Tony Abott's Australia is waging a war on "illegal immigration".
I hope he gets eaten by a dingo.
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 08:06:33 AM
I find it incredibly funny that Tony Abott's Australia is waging a war on "illegal immigration".
Why?
Because Australia is supposed to be a welcoming place for criminals. :P
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 08:06:33 AM
I find it incredibly funny that Tony Abott's Australia is waging a war on "illegal immigration".
I hope he gets eaten by a dingo.
I find this perfectly reasonable they saw what happened with the aboriginals when they let illegal immigration occur. ;)
Quote from: Archy on August 17, 2015, 10:04:17 AM
I find this perfectly reasonable they saw what happened with the aboriginals when they let illegal immigration occur. ;)
They didn't have a flag.
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 01:16:07 AM
Where did that come from?
Response to Eddie's post. You need to pay attention.
Quote from: derspiess on August 17, 2015, 08:21:10 AM
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 08:06:33 AM
I find it incredibly funny that Tony Abott's Australia is waging a war on "illegal immigration".
Why?
Mostly because nobody invited white people there. Yet they came. It is deliciously ironic.
Europe has fucked so many places up that we now refuse to open our borders to the victims of said fuckuppery.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 17, 2015, 02:17:00 PM
Response to Eddie's post. You need to pay attention.
:huh:
I just meant that Missouri is in the SEC. Nothing about Ferguson. I have never maintained that southern states have a monopoly on racial strife in America.
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 04:49:29 PM
Mostly because nobody invited white people there. Yet they came. It is deliciously ironic.
How was it ironic? The principle there was Imperial Glory not a stand for the free movement of peoples across borders.
QuoteEurope has fucked so many places up that we now refuse to open our borders to the victims of said fuckuppery.
Australia is in Europe now? Fascinating.
The world has been fucked up ever since people walked upright. Chill. Last I checked very few countries open their borders to victims of fuckuppery if they can avoid it regardless of their levels of fucking shit up.
Justice just is not a thing when it comes to stuff like this. The country who nobly throws open its borders becomes the sucker who gets everybody.
How did you get that he was saying Australia was in Europe*? :huh:
*Eurovision notwithstanding
QuoteHow did you get that he was saying Australia was in Europe*?
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 04:49:29 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 17, 2015, 08:21:10 AM
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 08:06:33 AM
I find it incredibly funny that Tony Abott's Australia is waging a war on "illegal immigration".
Why?
Mostly because nobody invited white people there. Yet they came. It is deliciously ironic.
Europe has fucked so many places up that we now refuse to open our borders to the victims of said fuckuppery.
Because the question was why it was funny that horribly douchebag PM of Australia was doing something douchebaggy.
Quote from: Valmy on August 17, 2015, 06:01:38 PM
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 04:49:29 PM
Mostly because nobody invited white people there. Yet they came. It is deliciously ironic.
How was it ironic? The principle there was Imperial Glory not a stand for the free movement of peoples across borders.
QuoteEurope has fucked so many places up that we now refuse to open our borders to the victims of said fuckuppery.
Australia is in Europe now? Fascinating.
:rolleyes:
Yeah, Valmy. We Balls of Lights moved a whole continent to our shores.
Idjit.
Quote from: Valmy on August 17, 2015, 06:12:04 PM
Because the question was why it was funny that horribly douchebag PM of Australia was doing something douchebaggy.
And I mentioned Australia.
Fine, be a Raz.
Yeah what a douchecanoe.
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 06:15:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 17, 2015, 06:12:04 PM
Because the question was why it was funny that horribly douchebag PM of Australia was doing something douchebaggy.
And I mentioned Australia.
Fine, be a Raz.
I thought it was pretty obvious it was a joke. My sincere and deepest apologies if I offended.
Texas, where jokes don't even have to be funny. :P
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 04:02:58 AM
Hint: one of these regions is inhabited predominantly by Muslims.
Yes and that has the highest rate
But the region with the second highest rate is not known for its large Muslim populations - 34% ain't so hot.
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 04:06:28 AM
But, as I said, I am not sure the survey is really that credible. For example, for Poland the 2014 number is 45%, but in 2015 it is down to 37%. This is too much of a drop to be explained away by a popular attitude shift, so it seems the margin of error for these results is quite big.
Large margin of error relates dispersion, so it is just as likely that the problem is a lot worse. Again, not reassuring.
Your point vs. grumbler is that he is being too literal about the 99%. I can't speak for what is in his head but in this instance I don't think that's the problem at all. Tyr may not have meant literally 99% but he did mean to convey the message that in a material sense the problem is confined to Muslim immigrants and is immaterial outside that community. That is wrong as a matter of fact and dangerously complacent.
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2015, 06:31:32 PM
Texas, where jokes don't even have to be funny. :P
Man rough crowd.
Australia may not be a European country, but it is certainly part of "The West".
Oi?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 17, 2015, 07:03:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 04:02:58 AM
Hint: one of these regions is inhabited predominantly by Muslims.
Yes and that has the highest rate
But the region with the second highest rate is not known for its large Muslim populations - 34% ain't so hot.
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 04:06:28 AM
But, as I said, I am not sure the survey is really that credible. For example, for Poland the 2014 number is 45%, but in 2015 it is down to 37%. This is too much of a drop to be explained away by a popular attitude shift, so it seems the margin of error for these results is quite big.
Large margin of error relates dispersion, so it is just as likely that the problem is a lot worse. Again, not reassuring.
Your point vs. grumbler is that he is being too literal about the 99%. I can't speak for what is in his head but in this instance I don't think that's the problem at all. Tyr may not have meant literally 99% but he did mean to convey the message that in a material sense the problem is confined to Muslim immigrants and is immaterial outside that community. That is wrong as a matter of fact and dangerously complacent.
Well, to be honest I thought the situation in Western Europe is similar to what Tyr said - if it is not in fact right, then I stand corrected, but it would be good to hear that from someone who sounds credible on the subject (admittedly, you do - but not grumbler, Berkut or Raz who likely have no idea and just spout stereotypes).
I do agree with you that Eastern Europe is very antisemitic. Poland is unfortunately an extreme even within the region.
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 04:49:29 PM
Mostly because nobody invited white people there. Yet they came. It is deliciously ironic.
Europe has fucked so many places up that we now refuse to open our borders to the victims of said fuckuppery.
Ah, okay. The whole white guilt thing then. Carry on :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 03:24:48 AM
Well, to be honest I thought the situation in Western Europe is similar to what Tyr said - if it is not in fact right, then I stand corrected, but it would be good to hear that from someone who sounds credible on the subject (admittedly, you do - but not grumbler, Berkut or Raz who likely have no idea and just spout stereotypes).
I know you won't actually respond to my point here and will, instead, spout some non sequitur about how I always do something or other, but can you name
one "stereotype" that I have spouted in this thread. Even one?
And don't even try to use my statement "Are Muslims responsible for, perhaps, a majority (or even a vast majority) of anti-Semitic attacks? Perhaps." That's not a stereotype, or even an argument. It is an observation.
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2015, 09:20:32 AM
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 04:49:29 PM
Mostly because nobody invited white people there. Yet they came. It is deliciously ironic.
Europe has fucked so many places up that we now refuse to open our borders to the victims of said fuckuppery.
Ah, okay. The whole white guilt thing then. Carry on :lol:
To be sure, no one invited humans into Europe, either. So the guilt goes back even further. Those damned Africans have a lot to answer for.
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 03:24:48 AM
Well, to be honest I thought the situation in Western Europe is similar to what Tyr said - if it is not in fact right, then I stand corrected, but it would be good to hear that from someone who sounds credible on the subject (admittedly, you do - but not grumbler, Berkut or Raz who likely have no idea and just spout stereotypes).
I do agree with you that Eastern Europe is very antisemitic. Poland is unfortunately an extreme even within the region.
Well clearly you thought wrong, as Western Europe was appears to be quite anti-Semitic, much higher then the number of Muslims with the exception of Britain and the Netherlands. The odd thing, is you have put your faith in stereotypes when agreeing with Tyr (that the only problem is with the foreigners, not the natives), however that is clearly not the case. France and Germany both have very high rates of anti-Semitic sentiment. Much higher then then percentage that is Muslim in the country. Many times the Muslim population.
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 03:24:48 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 17, 2015, 07:03:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 04:02:58 AM
Hint: one of these regions is inhabited predominantly by Muslims.
Yes and that has the highest rate
But the region with the second highest rate is not known for its large Muslim populations - 34% ain't so hot.
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 04:06:28 AM
But, as I said, I am not sure the survey is really that credible. For example, for Poland the 2014 number is 45%, but in 2015 it is down to 37%. This is too much of a drop to be explained away by a popular attitude shift, so it seems the margin of error for these results is quite big.
Large margin of error relates dispersion, so it is just as likely that the problem is a lot worse. Again, not reassuring.
Your point vs. grumbler is that he is being too literal about the 99%. I can't speak for what is in his head but in this instance I don't think that's the problem at all. Tyr may not have meant literally 99% but he did mean to convey the message that in a material sense the problem is confined to Muslim immigrants and is immaterial outside that community. That is wrong as a matter of fact and dangerously complacent.
Well, to be honest I thought the situation in Western Europe is similar to what Tyr said - if it is not in fact right, then I stand corrected, but it would be good to hear that from someone who sounds credible on the subject (admittedly, you do - but not grumbler, Berkut or Raz who likely have no idea and just spout stereotypes).
I do agree with you that Eastern Europe is very antisemitic. Poland is unfortunately an extreme even within the region.
What stereotype is it that I spouted?
Self-righteous American who probably has Jewish friends.
Quote from: Berkut on August 18, 2015, 03:25:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 03:24:48 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 17, 2015, 07:03:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 04:02:58 AM
Hint: one of these regions is inhabited predominantly by Muslims.
Yes and that has the highest rate
But the region with the second highest rate is not known for its large Muslim populations - 34% ain't so hot.
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 04:06:28 AM
But, as I said, I am not sure the survey is really that credible. For example, for Poland the 2014 number is 45%, but in 2015 it is down to 37%. This is too much of a drop to be explained away by a popular attitude shift, so it seems the margin of error for these results is quite big.
Large margin of error relates dispersion, so it is just as likely that the problem is a lot worse. Again, not reassuring.
Your point vs. grumbler is that he is being too literal about the 99%. I can't speak for what is in his head but in this instance I don't think that's the problem at all. Tyr may not have meant literally 99% but he did mean to convey the message that in a material sense the problem is confined to Muslim immigrants and is immaterial outside that community. That is wrong as a matter of fact and dangerously complacent.
Well, to be honest I thought the situation in Western Europe is similar to what Tyr said - if it is not in fact right, then I stand corrected, but it would be good to hear that from someone who sounds credible on the subject (admittedly, you do - but not grumbler, Berkut or Raz who likely have no idea and just spout stereotypes).
I do agree with you that Eastern Europe is very antisemitic. Poland is unfortunately an extreme even within the region.
What stereotype is it that I spouted?
The stereotype that you post when it is possible that you don't know the situation, as compared to Marti who posts and then is forced to concede that he has no idea. If you lack Marti's invincible ignorance, why should you post?
Quote from: grumbler on August 18, 2015, 12:11:47 PM
I know you won't actually respond to my point here and will, instead, spout some non sequitur about how I always do something or other, but can you name one "stereotype" that I have spouted in this thread. Even one?
I didn't think so. More Marti bullshit. :yawn:
Marti, do you have some evidence that Europe purged itself of its anti-semitism and it is only Muslim immigrants who now hold that view?
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 19, 2015, 09:50:45 PM
Marti, do you have some evidence that Europe purged itself of its anti-semitism and it is only Muslim immigrants who now hold that view?
Well... this is mostly subjective and not evidence-based, but at least on the surface, Western Europe is far less anti-semitic than 80 years ago. Then again, there are less Jews. The old anti-semitism has more or less translated easily into anti-Islamic ideas where the elders of Zion are less important than our own politicians who apparently "sold us out" for cheap oil from the Middle East.
I think you'll still find anti-semtism among Eastern Europeans. But most of all you will find a kind of vitriol that's frightening against the Roma. This happens here too. Since the Schengen agreement was signed, you'll find Roma begging in the streets of almost any town in Norway. And the kind of hate and lack of compassion they are met with is just staggering.
North America has had its own issues with immigration, but in the back of every European's mind there seems to be this "Barbarians at the gates" scenario resulting in the end of civilised society. I blame the Romans. For a continent that once invented humanist ideals, we're fairly far from following any of them.
I think from non-Muslims the most common form of Anti-Jewish sentiment would be in the form of criticizing Israel. Though there's the occasional comment about Jews controlling Hollywood/the Banks. But if a celebrity is Jewish, or when Jewish traditions show up in media it's pretty uncontroversial.
There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.
There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS. It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist. But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference. Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.
For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 20, 2015, 12:17:23 PM
There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.
There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS. It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist. But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference. Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.
For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.
I think you'll find anti-semites among the left, yes. The old right too, but they're more preoccupied with Muslims and, well, the left. There's an ideological mishmash on both sides that's hard to decipher even for me.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 20, 2015, 12:17:23 PM
There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.
There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS. It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist. But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference. Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.
For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.
I think the left-wing ones are not quite new, but are born from the Soviet apologists, the attacks by communists on refuseniks. George Galloway was part of that crowd at one time. What we call anti-semitism is actually the newer form of hating Jews based on racial ideas and crazy nonsense like that. The older one that Jews are Christ Killers still exists as well, that's probably what a lot of the Polish and Greek antisemitism comes from. There was probably an older form of hating Jews in the Middle East that predates Zionism, but I don't know what it was called and what it was about. It's amazing that there still are Jews around. Or perhaps not considering that the two places with the largest number of Jews also have nuclear weapons.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 20, 2015, 07:35:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 20, 2015, 12:17:23 PM
There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.
There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS. It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist. But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference. Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.
For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.
I think the left-wing ones are not quite new, but are born from the Soviet apologists, the attacks by communists on refuseniks. George Galloway was part of that crowd at one time. What we call anti-semitism is actually the newer form of hating Jews based on racial ideas and crazy nonsense like that. The older one that Jews are Christ Killers still exists as well, that's probably what a lot of the Polish and Greek antisemitism comes from. There was probably an older form of hating Jews in the Middle East that predates Zionism, but I don't know what it was called and what it was about. It's amazing that there still are Jews around. Or perhaps not considering that the two places with the largest number of Jews also have nuclear weapons.
"Christ-killers" antisemitism is pretty much non-existent in Poland. Now, the existing antisemitism is perpetrated to a large extent by the Catholic church (and associated organisations) but this is more along the lines of the Jewish-masonic-gay-atheist conspiracy to destroy traditional Polish values and get to our precious bodily fluids than anything motivated by actual religion.
For the record, as this often comes as a surprise to Americans used to a Southern Baptist style of piety, Poles are not a very pious nations - people are happy to ignore the Catholic Church's teachings when it is inconvenient, e.g. on contraception or death penalty. Poles are very traditional and deferent to the Church on things political, though (so, for example, we have one of the most restrictive abortion laws in Europe - but also one of the largest "abortion underground" and "abortion tourism" industries as well).
The Church is quite happy to play along, being more interested in secular power and its trappings (so, getting public money; making sure the laws respect "Catholic morality"; or prosecuting an occasional heavy metal singer who burns the Bible on stage) than actually saving people's souls or even, say, helping poor parents who decide to keep the baby (or cannot afford a foreign abortion).
Quote from: Razgovory on August 20, 2015, 07:35:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 20, 2015, 12:17:23 PM
There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.
There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS. It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist. But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference. Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.
For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.
I think the left-wing ones are not quite new, but are born from the Soviet apologists, the attacks by communists on refuseniks. George Galloway was part of that crowd at one time. What we call anti-semitism is actually the newer form of hating Jews based on racial ideas and crazy nonsense like that. The older one that Jews are Christ Killers still exists as well, that's probably what a lot of the Polish and Greek antisemitism comes from. There was probably an older form of hating Jews in the Middle East that predates Zionism, but I don't know what it was called and what it was about. It's amazing that there still are Jews around. Or perhaps not considering that the two places with the largest number of Jews also have nuclear weapons.
Anthony D. Smith describes Jews as the first national ethnic group. I sort of understand why. While other groups basically just had perhaps a common language, Jews had a shared history, a religion and well-defined rules as to who belonged to the group. This "otherness" obviously made them stick out. I guess you could say anti-semitism in Europe is less overt today than before. But I am sure a few would raise an eyebrow if you said you were Jewish.
I guess when talking about anti-semitism people usually mean the Christian world (the roots of antisemitism in the Muslim world are different and more recent, I would say). If you consider it from this perspective, then it is explainable, given that until recently Jews were really the only ethnic and religious group that existed throughout the Christian world (as opposed to a localised, regional minority) and was not Christian.
Given what was done to Muslims in Spain, pagans in Eastern Europe or Aztecs in Mexico after the Spanish conquest, you could say that Jews got off light.
Aztecs rarely run the international finance sector. :Joos:
Anti-Semitic crimes are notably on the rise in the UK, especially assaults in individuals and damage to synagogues and graveyards. But sadly hate crimes in general are increasing.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2F481d48a9e7d2af18100751dbbdfd7c98%2Ftumblr_mnj5i1RoeV1qzg8ggo1_500.jpg&hash=ca3b96e3f4b9739c374f7497b1dd335aaf5ed10d)
:lol: :Joos
Quote from: Warspite on August 21, 2015, 04:43:17 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2F481d48a9e7d2af18100751dbbdfd7c98%2Ftumblr_mnj5i1RoeV1qzg8ggo1_500.jpg&hash=ca3b96e3f4b9739c374f7497b1dd335aaf5ed10d)
Heh, precisely there's been a pretty ugly fracas involving Matisyahu and a reggae festival in Spain. A BDS group - with the support of some other artists featured in the festival - pressured the organization to get Matisyahu to speak on the Palestinian issue and the festival ended up cancelling his performance when he refused to do so. The fallout has been quite big and the festival apologized and reversed, but man...
I read about that. They didn't just want him to speak on the issue-- they wanted him to make a statement supporting a Palestinian state.
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2015, 04:28:04 AM
Given what was done to Muslims in Spain, pagans in Eastern Europe or Aztecs in Mexico after the Spanish conquest, you could say that Jews got off light.
They were forced to convert in Spain and then got persecuted anyway so pretty much what happened to the Aztecs and the Muslims.
Quote from: derspiess on August 21, 2015, 06:59:30 AM
I read about that. They didn't just want him to speak on the issue-- they wanted him to make a statement supporting a Palestinian state.
BDS is still around? I figured they had given up by now.
Quote from: Valmy on August 21, 2015, 07:31:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2015, 04:28:04 AM
Given what was done to Muslims in Spain, pagans in Eastern Europe or Aztecs in Mexico after the Spanish conquest, you could say that Jews got off light.
They were forced to convert in Spain and then got persecuted anyway so pretty much what happened to the Aztecs and the Muslims.
My greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandparents :hug:
You know things were getting bad for them in Spain when they had to make the decision 'damn the Muslims are getting a little crazy, I guess we have to support the Christians now.'
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2015, 04:28:04 AM
I guess when talking about anti-semitism people usually mean the Christian world (the roots of antisemitism in the Muslim world are different and more recent, I would say). If you consider it from this perspective, then it is explainable, given that until recently Jews were really the only ethnic and religious group that existed throughout the Christian world (as opposed to a localised, regional minority) and was not Christian.
Given what was done to Muslims in Spain, pagans in Eastern Europe or Aztecs in Mexico after the Spanish conquest, you could say that Jews got off light.
Interestingly widespread hatred of Jews predates both religions. The blood libel seems is first mentioned by pagan Greeks.