So hey, Obama is apparently set to issue an executive order granting deportation deferrals and work permits to illegal immigrants who have been in the US for five years and who have kids who are legal residents/ citizens. Estimates apparently put the number at 3.3 million.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/us/obamas-immigration-plan-could-grant-papers-to-millions-at-least-for-now.html
The shape of things to come?
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2014, 04:08:56 PM
The shape of things to come?
The Republicans are going to shut down the Federal government in retaliation.
Well they were going to anyway.
Yeah, but this way they'll actually have an excuse beyond "just because".
They are terrified of doing that again.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 04:41:08 PM
Yeah, but this way they'll actually have an excuse beyond "just because".
And this way the country gets something out of it.
A more cynical person might suggest that with the current congress the only government we're going to have for the next two years is by presidential fiat.
Quote from: Maximus on November 18, 2014, 04:44:38 PM
And this way the country gets something out of it.
A more cynical person might suggest that with the current congress the only government we're going to have for the next two years is by presidential fiat.
Not creating new legislation and spending programs is not the same thing as not having a government.
I'm a little surprised this is within the scope of executive orders.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 18, 2014, 04:42:17 PM
They are terrified of doing that again.
Some are. I think there's actually more appetite for it among others than last time.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 04:51:18 PM
I'm a little surprised this is within the scope of executive orders.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement is under the executive branch, and such things are deportation deferrals and work permits are procedural.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 04:57:49 PM
Immigration and Customs Enforcement is under the executive branch, and such things are deportation deferrals and work permits are procedural.
Everything is under the executive branch. I'm still a little surprised he doesn't need legislation to issue work permits.
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 04:59:50 PM
I'm still a little surprised he doesn't need legislation to issue work permits.
QuoteMany immigrants will also receive work permits, which will give them Social Security numbers and allow them to work legally under their own names and travel within the United States, although not abroad. In some states, they will be able to get driver's licenses and professional certificates.
Doesn't sound like he's altering work permits in any fundamental way that would require legislation, merely issuing more.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 05:04:46 PM
Doesn't sound like he's altering work permits in any fundamental way that would require legislation, merely issuing more.
See, I'm surprised he can issue a Social Security card to whomever he wants.
I'll take another one if they're just giving them away.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 05:06:55 PM
See, I'm surprised he can issue a Social Security card to whomever he wants.
I'd be amazed if that wasn't the sort of thing the legislature gave authority to the executive to do.
Anyway details for the surprised:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/11/18/getting-back-to-basics-in-the-raging-debate-over-deportations/
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
I can't think of a reason beyond identity politics why the left would oppose it :mellow:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 05:06:55 PM
See, I'm surprised he can issue a Social Security card to whomever he wants.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have specific people picked out. But unfortunately for the America he is utterly destroying with a single stroke of his pen, one needs a SSN in order to pay taxes.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:08:58 PM
I can't think of a reason beyond identity politics why the left would oppose it :mellow:
Drives down wages, competition for jobs.
Fun fact: Caesar Chavez ratted out illegals.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 05:10:46 PM
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have specific people picked out. But unfortunately for the America he is utterly destroying with a single stroke of his pen, one needs a SSN in order to pay taxes.
No you don't. You need a Taxpayer Identification Number. Otherwise, people here on work visas would not be able to pay their taxes.
Because it introduces a difficult to control, potentially degrading variable via a labor black market to the finetuned economy, and also brings more people into an already full closed ecology. Our wages are stagnant, natives compete against criminals, and we're too full. The left response to immigration in a syatem of nations is not "The morw the merrier." And Eurocanadians can eat it, since they'd deport my ass in a heartbeat.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 05:13:13 PM
Drives down wages, competition for jobs.
Whose wages? Competition with whom?
'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on November 18, 2014, 05:17:20 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2014, 05:10:46 PM
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have specific people picked out. But unfortunately for the America he is utterly destroying with a single stroke of his pen, one needs a SSN in order to pay taxes.
No you don't. You need a Taxpayer Identification Number. Otherwise, people here on work visas would not be able to pay their taxes.
Great, THANKS OBAMA
System.of nations as opposed to one world govt, btw.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
And the countries sending the immigrants aren't even more crowded?
Nationalism is typically associated with the right.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:18:00 PM
Whose wages? Competition with whom?
That guy over there. And that other guy too.
Quote'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.
You're defining identity politics so broadly it has lost meaning.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:18:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 05:13:13 PM
Drives down wages, competition for jobs.
Whose wages? Competition with whom?
'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1c4_1288222548
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:18:00 PM
'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.
:bleeding: I guess we should never differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, then?
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:18:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 05:13:13 PM
Drives down wages, competition for jobs.
Whose wages? Competition with whom?
'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.
"Citizens and legal.immigrants" isn't much of an identity.
The fastest growing sector viz jobs is crap service economy. Where competition with illegally working illegal immigrants is fiercest. There is no human right to participate in a foreign economy. That's neoliberal thinking.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:17:32 PM
Because it introduces a difficult to control, potentially degrading variable via a labor black market to the finetuned economy, and also brings more people into an already full closed ecology. Our wages are stagnant, natives compete against criminals, and we're too full. The left response to immigration in a syatem of nations is not "The morw the merrier." And Eurocanadians can eat it, since they'd deport my ass in a heartbeat.
One easy way to get rid of a black market is to make it easier to operate in the daylight. They're here. They're not going away. The numbers coming each year are shrinking. Now you can wait to deport them all and, in the meantime, let them work in a black market 'downgrading' your economy and themselves suffering from the insecurity of illegal work, or let them work, smash the black market, prosecute the people who exploit them and let working people have the protection they deserve.
Wages aren't stagnating because of immigrants they're stagnating because corporate America's sitting on historically unprecedented cash reserves. They're not investing and they're not paying their staff more. They're stagnating because too much gain in productivity is being made by squeezing the workforce rather than other avenues. Arguably pay structure could be part of it. Because managers get their bonuses and the rest in stocks, so they've got skin in the game, of course it's better if the company's got lots of cash and can dish out some hefty dividends. That's what the market and their pay packet demand. This isn't just a US problem but to blame immigration seems narrow minded and as identity driven as anything else.
If you've got to get your pitchfork out and vent your nativism probably the only immigrant who deserves any sort of ire is Christine Lagarde :P
Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 05:23:56 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:18:00 PM
'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.
:bleeding: I guess we should never differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, then?
I would consider Nativism a form of identity politics.
Now, S, I'm not blind to the advantages of normalizing them vis a vis nothing.
My preferred solution is blanket amnesty and a mined, fortified, impassable border. Until such time as nations dissolve, anyway.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 05:22:59 PM
You're defining identity politics so broadly it has lost meaning.
Nonsense. This is the identity politics of the populist right in Europe.
Which isn't to say it's not valid, or important, or worth considering but we should see it for what it is.
Quote:bleeding: I guess we should never differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, then?
From a left-wing perspective I'm not sure there's a great deal of point in it, no.
QuoteThe fastest growing sector viz jobs is crap service economy. Where competition with illegally working illegal immigrants is fiercest. There is no human right to participate in a foreign economy. That's neoliberal thinking.
Tony Blair's right, which is rare nowadays, the big divide in politics is between those who want open societies and those who want closed ones. If that's neo-liberal then fine. But I'm far more comfortable with a left-wing that wants to improve crap jobs and the conditions of even illegal immigrants than one that thinks the answer is deporting them, running the national economy like a closed shop and trying to turn the clock back 60 years.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 05:28:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 05:23:56 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:18:00 PM
'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.
:bleeding: I guess we should never differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, then?
I would consider Nativism a form of identity politics.
If it's really Nativism, yeah.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:25:04 PM
One easy way to get rid of a black market is to make it easier to operate in the daylight. They're here. They're not going away. The numbers coming each year are shrinking. Now you can wait to deport them all and, in the meantime, let them work in a black market 'downgrading' your economy and themselves suffering from the insecurity of illegal work, or let them work, smash the black market, prosecute the people who exploit them and let working people have the protection they deserve.
You mean go after the businesses that employ illegal immigrants? Like massive agricultural interests, huge construction firms, resorts and the wealthy who hire them as housekeepers and nannies?
QuoteWages aren't stagnating because of immigrants they're stagnating because corporate America's sitting on historically unprecedented cash reserves. They're not investing and they're not paying their staff more. They're stagnating because too much gain in productivity is being made by squeezing the workforce rather than other avenues.
That sounds suspiciously like Maximizing Profits and Minimizing Costs, and as Yi has pointed out in the past, there's more to American capitalism than that. He won't tell you what it is, but it's there somewhere.
Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 05:33:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 18, 2014, 05:28:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 18, 2014, 05:23:56 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:18:00 PM
'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.
:bleeding: I guess we should never differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, then?
I would consider Nativism a form of identity politics.
If it's really Nativism, yeah.
If it wasn't nativism we wouldn't have other issues running along side it, such as "English as the only Language".
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 05:31:31 PM
Nonsense. This is the identity politics of the populist right in Europe.
Which isn't to say it's not valid, or important, or worth considering but we should see it for what it is.
I guess you've repeated it enough times now that it must be true.
QuoteFrom a left-wing perspective I'm not sure there's a great deal of point in it, no.
There has always been and always will be tension in leftism between fraternal solidarity with all working men and women and looking out for number 1.
The USSR had a closed society.
The Keystone vote just failed.
Good. Now Canada can use this as an opportunity to develop things like ports.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 18, 2014, 06:25:54 PM
The Keystone vote just failed.
Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2014, 07:32:50 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 18, 2014, 06:25:54 PM
The Keystone vote just failed.
Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?
Not enough dems to get to 60 votes.
Also, eject all mexicans. Except the ones mowing my lawn.
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2014, 07:32:50 PM
Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?
I imagine it failed in the Democratic controlled Senate.
If I was Mary Landrieu, I'd cuss on the floor of the senate and start spilling secrets of her fellow Dems.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 18, 2014, 07:37:39 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2014, 07:32:50 PM
Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?
I imagine it failed in the Democratic controlled Senate.
Didn't the Republicans take over the Senate? Oh... I guess they're not seated until... 2015?
What prevents the bill from being passed by the GOP senate?
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:29:07 PM
Now, S, I'm not blind to the advantages of normalizing them vis a vis nothing.
My preferred solution is blanket amnesty and a mined, fortified, impassable border. Until such time as nations dissolve, anyway.
Wow. Not surprisingly, my position is the opposite. I favor relatively open borders, but no amnesty for those here illegally.
And yes, I'm aware that as a practical matter we're probably going to have to give amnesty to illegals (again) but I just can't support it. Awarding people for breaking the law is just wrong.
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2014, 08:03:15 PM
What prevents the bill from being passed by the GOP senate?
Possibly a Democratic filibuster, although my sense is this was a nonbinding show vote.
We'll have to see if it helped Mary anyway.
She's gotten a bit chunkier.
Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2014, 07:32:50 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 18, 2014, 06:25:54 PM
The Keystone vote just failed.
Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?
Failed by one vote, one Dem vote. All Repubs voted for it. Next year when the Repubs take over the Senate it'll have a better chance of passing and possibly over-riding a Presidential veto, as perhaps more Dems will vote for it rather than face voters who are largely in favor of it.
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2014, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:29:07 PM
Now, S, I'm not blind to the advantages of normalizing them vis a vis nothing.
My preferred solution is blanket amnesty and a mined, fortified, impassable border. Until such time as nations dissolve, anyway.
Wow. Not surprisingly, my position is the opposite. I favor relatively open borders, but no amnesty for those here illegally.
And yes, I'm aware that as a practical matter we're probably going to have to give amnesty to illegals (again) but I just can't support it. Awarding people for breaking the law is just wrong.
I don't really like blanket amnesty, but for once I'm trying to be realistic. It's like trying to support Prohibition at this point.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
It's called priortization of limited resources.
No executive adminstration has succeeded in controlling illegal immigration. So the choice is either between trying to enforce the law poorly and haphazardly against all or setting priorities.
I got an SSN just by doing work study at Columbia U, it can't be such a big deal to issue them.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 18, 2014, 08:18:31 PM
She's gotten a bit chunkier.
I don't recall her ever being thin, though.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2014, 10:58:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
It's called priortization of limited resources.
No executive adminstration has succeeded in controlling illegal immigration. So the choice is either between trying to enforce the law poorly and haphazardly against all or setting priorities.
Prioritization is one thing. UP here while several things are priorities, you can of course figure out which laws are not, and have minimal resources put into enforcement.
But that's still miles different from publically announcing "we will not enforce X law". It seems to me you can set priorities, accept that certain laws will only be prosecuted poorly and haphazardly, and not engender the kind of disrespect for the rule of law that announcing a given law will not be enforced would lead to.
Quote from: celedhring on November 19, 2014, 11:33:57 AM
I got an SSN just by doing work study at Columbia U, it can't be such a big deal to issue them.
AFAIK there are already regs in place about what work can be done by foreigners on a student visa. I imagine there aren't similar regs about the work that can be done by foreigners on a no visa.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2014, 10:58:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
It's called priortization of limited resources.
No executive adminstration has succeeded in controlling illegal immigration. So the choice is either between trying to enforce the law poorly and haphazardly against all or setting priorities.
I've said it before - Ide just does not understand leftism. Leftism is about inclusion and what is called "mercy" (as opposed to "justice") in Jewish theology. On this basis, amnesty for illegal immigrants is clearly a leftist choice.
Of course, Ide's "leftism" essentially boils down to being resentful of people who are more succesful than he is.
Quote from: Barrister on November 19, 2014, 11:39:36 AM
But that's still miles different from publically announcing "we will not enforce X law".
I haven't read the proposal. But it doesn't sound like he is doing that. It sounds like he is saying the illegals have to come in and basically eat a deport order, but that he will then suspend prosecuting the deportation so long as certain conditions are satisfied.
It doesn't look a lot different from prosecutorial discretion.
Quote from: Barrister on November 19, 2014, 11:39:36 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2014, 10:58:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
It's called priortization of limited resources.
No executive adminstration has succeeded in controlling illegal immigration. So the choice is either between trying to enforce the law poorly and haphazardly against all or setting priorities.
Prioritization is one thing. UP here while several things are priorities, you can of course figure out which laws are not, and have minimal resources put into enforcement.
But that's still miles different from publically announcing "we will not enforce X law". It seems to me you can set priorities, accept that certain laws will only be prosecuted poorly and haphazardly, and not engender the kind of disrespect for the rule of law that announcing a given law will not be enforced would lead to.
I can understand that viewpoint.
But politics are about the possible.
And we all know that what is really needed in the US is comprehensive and rational immigration reform along with some kind of reasonable decisions about how to handle current illegal immigrants. And that ought to be done via Congress.
But Congress is full of political hacks who don't care about actually getting anything done, so that isn't an option.
So this is the next best alternative. It isn't a good alternative, by any means. But we can thank the Tea Party numbnuts for that.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2014, 11:40:29 AM
Quote from: celedhring on November 19, 2014, 11:33:57 AM
I got an SSN just by doing work study at Columbia U, it can't be such a big deal to issue them.
AFAIK there are already regs in place about what work can be done by foreigners on a student visa. I imagine there aren't similar regs about the work that can be done by foreigners on a no visa.
What I mean is that I didn't even have a work permit (just a student visa), so I presume the regulatory hurdle is rather low.
Quote from: celedhring on November 19, 2014, 11:33:57 AM
I got an SSN just by doing work study at Columbia U, it can't be such a big deal to issue them.
You're European, and therefore do not pose a threat to the leaf blower industry like Mexicans do.
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AMOf course, Ide's "leftism" essentially boils down to being resentful of people who are more succesful than he is.
That does seem to be the case, yes.
Quote from: celedhring on November 19, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
What I mean is that I didn't even have a work permit (just a student visa), so I presume the regulatory hurdle is rather low.
My point was that the legislation on the student visa already contains a limited opportunity to work.
Came across this blog the other day:
QuoteFew things are as dangerous to a long term strategy as a short-term victory. Republicans this week scored the kind of win that sets one up for spectacular, catastrophic failure and no one is talking about it.
It's a blog by a GOP guy who, I think is more of the Berkut/ grumbler/ 'American moderate' type of Republican but who still belongs to the party. I figure the Hansmeisters and Spicys of the world would consider him a RINO.
Either way, I'm curious what you folks think of his analysis - the the recent GOP victory in the midterms is essentially Pyrrhic. If it was from a Democrat aligned site, I'd consider it optimism, but this an inside POV. So yeah... thoughts?
The rest of the blog: http://blog.chron.com/goplifer/2014/11/the-missing-story-of-the-2014-election/#28114101=0
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2014, 12:01:47 PM
Quote from: celedhring on November 19, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
What I mean is that I didn't even have a work permit (just a student visa), so I presume the regulatory hurdle is rather low.
My point was that the legislation on the student visa already contains a limited opportunity to work.
Fair enough.
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AM
Of course, Ide's "leftism" essentially boils down to being resentful of people who are more succesful than he is.
That's my leftism. Ide's also features having the government watch you undress. And not eating meat.
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2014, 10:58:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
It's called priortization of limited resources.
No executive adminstration has succeeded in controlling illegal immigration. So the choice is either between trying to enforce the law poorly and haphazardly against all or setting priorities.
I've said it before - Ide just does not understand leftism. Leftism is about inclusion and what is called "mercy" (as opposed to "justice") in Jewish theology. On this basis, amnesty for illegal immigrants is clearly a leftist choice.
Of course, Ide's "leftism" essentially boils down to being resentful of people who are more succesful than he is.
No true leftisy fallacy, courtesy the Pole.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2014, 12:01:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AMOf course, Ide's "leftism" essentially boils down to being resentful of people who are more succesful than he is.
That does seem to be the case, yes.
Nonsense. I resent you for lots of reasons.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 01:22:43 PM
Nonsense. I resent you for lots of reasons.
That is very clear. However, your political opinions seem to be primarily motivated by resentment, with spite making up for the rest.
Quote from: Jacob on November 19, 2014, 01:33:34 PM
However, your political opinions seem to be primarily motivated by resentment, with spite making up for the rest.
Resentment and spite are their own rewards.
I was just kidding. I don't resent you. Gee whiz.
Only my economic views really have any resentment attached to them. What resentment drives my support for gay marriage, for example? Resentment towards men that may ill-advisedly marry Martinus? My more illiberal views are based on neither spite nor resentment, but a sincere belief that if implemented they would radically improve most peoples lives. And the main world current of leftism for 100 years has been illiberal. Irrationally, sadly, but that need not be the case.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 01:50:20 PM
What resentment drives my support for gay marriage, for example?
You are resentful toward conservative social mores that you (partially) blame for your sexual frustration. :)
Seems pretty attenuated, and I resent myself for my sexual frustrations, principally. Secondarily, I blame a lack of eugenics education and the crummy state of prenatal testing in 1982.
I'd have no place in my utopia.
I'm also unsure how support of a transparency society and animal rights mesh with resentment.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 19, 2014, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 01:50:20 PM
What resentment drives my support for gay marriage, for example?
You are resentful toward conservative social mores that you (partially) blame for your sexual frustration. :)
The guy gets plenty of sex. It's the falling-in-love-with-strippers-on-Craigslist part he has a problem with.
I respectfully disagree as to the first assertion.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 02:21:24 PM
I respectfully disagree as to the first assertion.
Sorry, that was an incomplete sentence. It should have read, "The guy gets plenty of sex compared to me." :P
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 02:17:02 PM
I'm also unsure how support of a transparency society and animal rights mesh with resentment.
Those are examples of "goofy shit lefties like". The resentment hypothesis is not mine.
Indeed. You're not engaged in silly reductionism/faxtional infighting.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 02:17:02 PM
I'm also unsure how support of a transparency society and animal rights mesh with resentment.
You are alienated from the society in which you were raised and this provides you an alternative community. Also, a girl convinced you. See that John Goodman's character in the Big Lebowski and the sabbath. :P
Really don't think a pathological lying sociopath should be talking about anything regarding alienation from a society.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2014, 02:36:59 PM
Really don't think a pathological lying sociopath should be talking about anything regarding alienation from a society.
This is fun! First we deconstruct Ide, then you want to deconstruct me, now is it time to deconstruct you? :)
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2014, 10:58:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
It's called priortization of limited resources.
No executive adminstration has succeeded in controlling illegal immigration. So the choice is either between trying to enforce the law poorly and haphazardly against all or setting priorities.
I've said it before - Ide just does not understand leftism. Leftism is about inclusion and what is called "mercy" (as opposed to "justice") in Jewish theology. On this basis, amnesty for illegal immigrants is clearly a leftist choice.
Of course, Ide's "leftism" essentially boils down to being resentful of people who are more succesful than he is.
I honestly don't know what you are on about with the Justice and Mercy thing. You are right about Ide, though.
Quote from: alfred russel on November 19, 2014, 02:57:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2014, 02:36:59 PM
Really don't think a pathological lying sociopath should be talking about anything regarding alienation from a society.
This is fun! First we deconstruct Ide, then you want to deconstruct me, now is it time to deconstruct you? :)
Wouldn't be that hard. Just use what he said about you and take out the lying part.
Personally I've found deconstructing people messy and unhygienic.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 19, 2014, 03:04:29 PM
Personally I've found deconstructing people messy and unhygienic.
Perhaps you're not using the right method.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 19, 2014, 03:04:29 PM
Personally I've found deconstructing people messy and unhygienic.
"Decontractucting" is supposed to be a metaphor, Raz. :console:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2014, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 02:21:24 PM
I respectfully disagree as to the first assertion.
Sorry, that was an incomplete sentence. It should have read, "The guy gets plenty of sex compared to me." :P
:lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on November 19, 2014, 02:59:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2014, 10:58:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 18, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
I have no fucking idea at all how de facto legalizing illegal immigration came to be a left cause beyond identity politics. We are too many by about a hundred fifty million already.
It's called priortization of limited resources.
No executive adminstration has succeeded in controlling illegal immigration. So the choice is either between trying to enforce the law poorly and haphazardly against all or setting priorities.
I've said it before - Ide just does not understand leftism. Leftism is about inclusion and what is called "mercy" (as opposed to "justice") in Jewish theology. On this basis, amnesty for illegal immigrants is clearly a leftist choice.
Of course, Ide's "leftism" essentially boils down to being resentful of people who are more succesful than he is.
I honestly don't know what you are on about with the Justice and Mercy thing. You are right about Ide, though.
Well, it was said that there were two pillars at the entrance to the Temple of Salomon - Yakin and Boaz - Justice and Mercy.
Justice is about giving everyone his or her due, about retribution and just reward or punishment, without any consideration for empathy or sympathy. It is the Old Testament God. It is Lawful Neutral.
Mercy is about forgiveness, turning the other cheek, answering evil with good. It is Jesus Christ. It is Chaotic Good.
Conservatives consistently value the former while Liberals value the latter.
Lol Pole-itics.
That is a bid odd coming from you, but it is an interesting perspective. I don't see them as two extremes, in fact I seem them as compatible. For instance a man who beats his wife should be prosecuted. It is not a mercy to let him go (at least not to his wife). While incarcerated we should try to reform him, and if he shows genuine reform should be released early. I think both Mercy and Justice are both served in such a situation.
Incidentally, I always play lawful neutral.
When used together they mitigate each other. They are opposites.
I tend to think of justice as a balance between mercy and vengeance.
Justice is whatever increases human happiness the most. Mercy is one of its expressions, to be used if the case is right.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 06:56:23 PM
Justice is whatever increases human happiness the most.
If only the Justice Dept knew that. :weep:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2014, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 19, 2014, 02:21:24 PM
I respectfully disagree as to the first assertion.
Sorry, that was an incomplete sentence. It should have read, "The guy gets plenty of sex compared to me." :P
As long as each of you has one functional hand, you should both be able to get all the sex you want. Sexual partners, though, are a different story.
Who calls masturbation, sex?
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
Who calls masturbation, sex?
Can't really consider someone who masturbates a lot asexual.
Quote from: dps on November 19, 2014, 07:10:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
Who calls masturbation, sex?
Can't really consider someone who masturbates a lot asexual.
Of course not. But then I wouldn't define asexuality on that basis but rather on the extent to which they have a sex drive.
Quote from: garbon on November 19, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
Who calls masturbation, sex?
Dps, when aa is mad at him.
So, American languishites, what's your take on the current immigration enforcement executive order?
Did Obama overreach in a heinous fashion, undermining the governance of the very Republic?
What are the Republicans' options? What will they actually do?
How is the American public responding?
Hang on, let me go check Fox News and I will get back to you on my opinion...
I thought he overreached. I would love a nice, clean Supreme Court case to determine if he did or not.
Immigration is "special" in certain ways. The power to control immigration (as opposed to naturalization) is not enumerated in the Constitution. Nor is it based on the Commerce power. Historically, the constitutional power to regulate immigration has been based on inherent powers of a sovereign, and the Supreme Court has sometimes characterized this as an executive function that forms part of inherent Article II presidential powers, that may in some cases be exercised even without explicit grants of authority from Congress. In addition, the immigration laws - namely the INA - also give very broad grants of discretion to the Executive.
The upshot is that executive power is near its zenith in the immigration context. [BTW I don't view that as a particularly good thing or even a proper constitutional interpretation, but as a matter of reality that ship long since sailed]. Given that the announcement seems to be a declaration of prosecutorial discretion, albeit a very broad and consequential one, it seems to be within the President's legal power.
Whether it is good policy is another question, and for my 2c the GOP would be better served focusing on that avenue attack, rather than tangling themselves in legalisms that could be used as precedent to limit future hypothetical GOP presidents.
The issuance of work permits seems to go a bit further than opting not to prosecute immigration offenders.
I agree that the case is an interesting one, and is at the outer limits of what I consider executive authority, but also that the actual executive order was pretty well-crafted to not exceed that authority. The Republican criticisms that I have heard are mostly daft, simplistic and false assertions that "a year ago the President said he didn't have this power" when the question a year ago was different than the current one. The vague Republican threats that they will actually pass legislation to retaliate against this executive order are somewhat promising in that they imply that the Republicans might actually care about doing something constructive rather than destructive (unless their eventually-chosen solution is to just defund the government). Seeing a Republican immigration bill or policy would be a novel experience and good for the country.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2014, 03:29:42 PM
The issuance of work permits seems to go a bit further than opting not to prosecute immigration offenders.
But isn't issuing/ not issuing permits of whatever kind, within the bounds of the law, exactly what the executive is supposed to do?
QuoteDespite the rebuke he received in the elections, Mr. Obama has responded defiantly to Republicans warning him not to act on his own.
"My executive actions not only do not prevent them from passing a law that supersedes those actions," he said at a news conference on Nov. 5, "but they should be a spur for them to actually try to get something done."
Quote from: Berkut on November 21, 2014, 03:05:49 PM
Hang on, let me go check Fox News and I will get back to you on my opinion...
Man, Fox News must really have a lot of material on this. I was hoping you'd have reported back on this by now.
Quote from: Jacob on November 21, 2014, 03:35:11 PM
But isn't issuing/ not issuing permits of whatever kind, within the bounds of the law, exactly what the executive is supposed to do?
Sure. And it goes further than prosecutorial discretion.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2014, 03:29:42 PM
The issuance of work permits seems to go a bit further than opting not to prosecute immigration offenders.
But to find it whether it is legal you would need to look to the code.
The prohibition on unlawful employment of aliens uses the definition "unauthorized alien"
And unauthorized alien is then defined to include all aliens unless either:
1) the alien is a lawful permanent resident
2) the alien is otherwise authorized for employment under the INA
or by the Attorney General It certainly looks like the AG is delegated power to authorize employment of otherwise ineligible aliens.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 21, 2014, 03:42:45 PM
But to find it whether it is legal you would need to look to the code.
The prohibition on unlawful employment of aliens uses the definition "unauthorized alien"
And unauthorized alien is then defined to include all aliens unless either:
1) the alien is a lawful permanent resident
2) the alien is otherwise authorized for employment under the INA or by the Attorney General
It certainly looks like the AG is delegated power to authorize employment of otherwise ineligible aliens.
So it goes shorter, or possibly just as far, as prosecutorial discretion, but not further?
It has nothing to do with prosecutorial discretion.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2014, 03:50:10 PM
It has nothing to do with prosecutorial discretion.
:huh:
Weren't you the one who brought it up?
Joan did.
Not enough rounding up and summary executions of illegals for me.
Sure, Colonel Shuffle. Because those leaves in your yard are going to blow themselves. Asshole.
I'll give you two shiny quarters to lovingly lick my taint.
Why, when your illegal nanny does it for just one.
Your information is as out of date as a Abwehr intelligence report.
Ah, no salsa, I forgot. Buttering up the croissant instead for your continental breakfast.
Now you are in CIA territory.
Tinker Tailor Toaster Strudel
I laughed.
Glad to hear that Boehner plans to appoint members to a Benghazi special panel...:rolleyes:
It's kind of funny how the Nth inquiry found nothing, so they dismiss the results and start a new one.
Quote from: garbon on November 25, 2014, 12:44:44 PM
Glad to hear that Boehner plans to appoint members to a Benghazi special panel...:rolleyes:
Obviously Darryl Issa didn't waste enough time and money.
Darryl :rolleyes:
He's your tribe, man. You own him.
Must be why I CAN SPELL HIS NAME CORRECTLY. The political climate is nasty enough without misspelling people's names, Seedy.
Too much Walking Dead I guess. :P
I$$A. How's that?
You guys are going to make Issa cry. :mad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VW0v7wwfkQ
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 18, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Nationalism is typically associated with the right.
which shows that those typically doing the associating don't really know what they're talking about given that nationalism is just as strong on the left
Quote from: Jacob on November 25, 2014, 12:46:24 PM
It's kind of funny how the Nth inquiry found nothing, so they dismiss the results and start a new one.
They're always dissatisfied with the info and what they feel gets hidden from them. A Congressional committee hearing is limited in what it can do, and so far they haven't found enough to warrant the Justice dept to get involved, which could do a lot more if the situation warranted.
In this case, what they're looking for is a smoking gun at the White House that purposefully let Ambassador Stevens and the others die, and it's just not there.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2014, 03:05:44 PM
In this case, what they're looking for is a smoking gun at the White House that purposefully let Ambassador Stevens and the others die, and it's just not there.
:lol:
You give WAY to much credit.
This is just monkeys slinging shit at Hillary Clinton, nothing more.
If they thought they could get away with it, they would reopen Travelgate, Whitewater and start recreating Vince Foster assassination crime scenes.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 25, 2014, 02:05:27 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 18, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Nationalism is typically associated with the right.
which shows that those typically doing the associating don't really know what they're talking about given that nationalism is just as strong on the left
There are many nationalistic lefties, true. This is one of many ways the imperfections are revealed in a scale that tries to grade people's politics using two (or four or six or n) directions on a graph. However, look at globalist movements or ideas. These are nearly all found on the Left, in the Western sense.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 25, 2014, 02:05:27 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 18, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Nationalism is typically associated with the right.
which shows that those typically doing the associating don't really know what they're talking about given that nationalism is just as strong on the left
That is something I have not noticed. Could you give an example of what you have in mind?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 25, 2014, 05:54:18 PM
There are many nationalistic lefties, true. This is one of many ways the imperfections are revealed in a scale that tries to grade people's politics using two (or four or six or n) directions on a graph. However, look at globalist movements or ideas. These are nearly all found on the Left, in the Western sense.
Not necessarily. There's a very strong centre-righ European federalist movement (historically in the UK being pro-EU was a right-wing thing) and there's definitely a trend of liberal internationalists like George Osborne, Mike Bloomberg who are very internationalist almost purely for the economic/pro-business case.
QuoteThat is something I have not noticed. Could you give an example of what you have in mind?
The SNP spring to mind. I think as a theory that maybe because nationalism is normally a populist movement, it's an expression of identity so I think it's as often as not going to define itself against the dominant, establishment politics of the time. Whether that leads to liberal nationalism, right-wing nationalism or socialist nationalism depends on where the nationalism is.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 25, 2014, 06:34:15 PM
The SNP spring to mind. I think as a theory that maybe because nationalism is normally a populist movement, it's an expression of identity so I think it's as often as not going to define itself against the dominant, establishment politics of the time. Whether that leads to liberal nationalism, right-wing nationalism or socialist nationalism depends on where the nationalism is.
I see. It is in the same vein as the left here often using the battle cry that we are not Americans (when there is a Republican sitting as President). Its funny how we dont hear that as much when there is a Dem in the White house. :D
So, one example of a left wing nationalist party means that "nationalism is just as strong on the left?" Wow. This is a forum of great logic... or else a forum where people cannot think of more than one nationalist party on the right.
Quote from: grumbler on November 25, 2014, 07:31:04 PM
So, one example of a left wing nationalist party means that "nationalism is just as strong on the left?" Wow. This is a forum of great logic... or else a forum where people cannot think of more than one nationalist party on the right.
He was asked to give "an" example and he did. Plaid Cmyru, Sinn Fein, Republic Left of Catalonia, numerous Basque parties including ETA. There are lots more no doubt although I'm not sure if I agree with the premises that "nationalism is just as strong on the left".
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2014, 04:52:21 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 18, 2014, 04:42:17 PM
They are terrified of doing that again.
Some are. I think there's actually more appetite for it among others than last time.
They were lucky last time. The Obamacare roll out was a disaster that first month and saved their bacon by replacing the shut down in people's political consciousness.