A Thread About US Politics

[Ideologue]

Now, S, I'm not blind to the advantages of normalizing them vis a vis nothing.

My preferred solution is blanket amnesty and a mined, fortified, impassable border. Until such time as nations dissolve, anyway.

[Sheilbh]

You're defining identity politics so broadly it has lost meaning.

Nonsense. This is the identity politics of the populist right in Europe.

Which isn't to say it's not valid, or important, or worth considering but we should see it for what it is.

  I guess we should never differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, then?

From a left-wing perspective I'm not sure there's a great deal of point in it, no.

The fastest growing sector viz jobs is crap service economy. Where competition with illegally working illegal immigrants is fiercest. There is no human right to participate in a foreign economy. That's neoliberal thinking.

Tony Blair's right, which is rare nowadays, the big divide in politics is between those who want open societies and those who want closed ones. If that's neo-liberal then fine. But I'm far more comfortable with a left-wing that wants to improve crap jobs and the conditions of even illegal immigrants than one that thinks the answer is deporting them, running the national economy like a closed shop and trying to turn the clock back 60 years.

[derspiess]

'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.

  I guess we should never differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, then?

I would consider Nativism a form of identity politics.

If it's really Nativism, yeah.

[CountDeMoney]

One easy way to get rid of a black market is to make it easier to operate in the daylight. They're here. They're not going away. The numbers coming each year are shrinking. Now you can wait to deport them all and, in the meantime, let them work in a black market 'downgrading' your economy and themselves suffering from the insecurity of illegal work, or let them work, smash the black market, prosecute the people who exploit them and let working people have the protection they deserve.

You mean go after the businesses that employ illegal immigrants? Like massive agricultural interests, huge construction firms, resorts and the wealthy who hire them as housekeepers and nannies?

Wages aren't stagnating because of immigrants they're stagnating because corporate America's sitting on historically unprecedented cash reserves. They're not investing and they're not paying their staff more. They're stagnating because too much gain in productivity is being made by squeezing the workforce rather than other avenues.

That sounds suspiciously like Maximizing Profits and Minimizing Costs, and as Yi has pointed out in the past, there's more to American capitalism than that.  He won't tell you what it is, but it's there somewhere.

[Razgovory]

'They' are driving down 'our' wages, or competing for 'our' jobs. I'm not seeing a lack of identity politics here.

  I guess we should never differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, then?

I would consider Nativism a form of identity politics.

If it's really Nativism, yeah.

If it wasn't nativism we wouldn't have other issues running along side it, such as "English as the only Language".

[Admiral Yi]

Nonsense. This is the identity politics of the populist right in Europe.

Which isn't to say it's not valid, or important, or worth considering but we should see it for what it is.

I guess you've repeated it enough times now that it must be true.

From a left-wing perspective I'm not sure there's a great deal of point in it, no.

There has always been and always will be tension in leftism between fraternal solidarity with all working men and women and looking out for number 1.

[Ideologue]

The USSR had a closed society.

[MadImmortalMan]

The Keystone vote just failed.

[CountDeMoney]

Good.  Now Canada can use this as an opportunity to develop things like ports.

[Jacob]

The Keystone vote just failed.

Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?

[Ed Anger]

The Keystone vote just failed.

Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?

Not enough dems to get to 60 votes.

Also, eject all mexicans. Except the ones mowing my lawn.

[Admiral Yi]

Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?

I imagine it failed in the Democratic controlled Senate.

[Ed Anger]

If I was Mary Landrieu, I'd cuss on the floor of the senate and start spilling secrets of her fellow Dems.

[Jacob]

Huh? I thought the Republicans would pass it. How did that happen?

I imagine it failed in the Democratic controlled Senate.

Didn't the Republicans take over the Senate? Oh... I guess they're not seated until... 2015?

What prevents the bill from being passed by the GOP senate?

[dps]

Now, S, I'm not blind to the advantages of normalizing them vis a vis nothing.

My preferred solution is blanket amnesty and a mined, fortified, impassable border. Until such time as nations dissolve, anyway.

Wow.  Not surprisingly, my position is the opposite.  I favor relatively open borders, but no amnesty for those here illegally.

And yes, I'm aware that as a practical matter we're probably going to have to give amnesty to illegals (again) but I just can't support it.  Awarding people for breaking the law is just wrong.