So, every time someone commits suicide you get those voices that "suicide is selfish" etc.
But is it really? Isn't it more selfish to expect people living in pain and anguish - be it physical or mental - to continue living for our pleasure, so they can be in our lives, or worse still, make more movies or entertain us?
Discuss.
Edit: For the record, I am not contemplating suicide. I just find it to be a valid option.
Yes and no.
I vote we ban Martinus again if this is how he chooses to return.
And, to your question, in your case it would be altruistic.
Yes it is.
But selfishness is not always bad.
No, it is not.
It is the singular most independent act of individuality and free will one can take in this absurd existence.
Now, whether you take others with you...well, that as Oprah would say, is for another show.
Here we go again.
If you want to commit suicide but want to be guilt-free for the family, go the plausible deniability route and buy a motorcycle.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:18:31 PM
But is it really? Isn't it more selfish to expect people living in pain and anguish - be it physical or mental - to continue living for our pleasure, so they can be in our lives, or worse still, make more movies or entertain us?
Both are selfish, just as the vast majority of other decisions we make and feelings we have. A lot of people don't seem to recognize the difference between selfishness and greed.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:18:31 PM
So, every time someone commits suicide you get those voices that "suicide is selfish" etc.
But is it really? Isn't it more selfish to expect people living in pain and anguish - be it physical or mental - to continue living for our pleasure, so they can be in our lives, or worse still, make more movies or entertain us?
Discuss.
Edit: For the record, I am not contemplating suicide. I just find it to be a valid option.
Yes, it is selfish.
Let's talk about Robin Williams, since that's what prompted the question. It's has nothing to do with the fans - he doesn't owe us squat.
But he had three kids and a wife who by all accounts miss their dad terribly. It is they who have forever lost their father or husband, and because of them it is a selfish act.
Yes, of course.
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:33:58 PM
But he had three kids and a wife who by all accounts miss their dad terribly. It is they who have forever lost their father or husband, and because of them it is a selfish act.
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.
He's back, wow.
Only those people who throw themselves in front of trains are selfish.
If you can do it in a manner that doesn't inconvenience anyone then its fine.
It's obvious that nobody on this forum knew him well enough to know what they're talking about.
Yes.
Selfish? Might be.
Egocentric? Certainly.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:33:58 PM
But he had three kids and a wife who by all accounts miss their dad terribly. It is they who have forever lost their father or husband, and because of them it is a selfish act.
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
Yeah, besides it's not like he left them struggling or young and unable to fend for themselves. He was 60-something when he committed suicide - that's the age people already die from natural causes.
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.
Spoken like somebody who doesn't have a single clue about the sheer, brutal and debilitating weight that is chronic depression.
And toss early onset Parkinson's on top of it? Check, please.
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.
So, according to you, is suicide always a bad decision?
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:40:30 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:33:58 PM
But he had three kids and a wife who by all accounts miss their dad terribly. It is they who have forever lost their father or husband, and because of them it is a selfish act.
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
Yeah, besides it's not like he left them struggling or young and unable to fend for themselves. He was 60-something when he committed suicide - that's the age people already die from natural causes.
My dad's 65. I'd still miss him terribly if he died tomorrow.
Suicide when you are facing a debilitating disease like Parkinsons is not selfish.
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.
No it's not obvious. This may have been a thought through decision.
Obviously I will live on even in constant excruciating pain if me dying would be terribly inconvenient for my friends and family.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:41:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.
Spoken like somebody who doesn't have a single clue about the sheer, brutal and debilitating weight that is chronic depression.
And toss early onset Parkinson's on top of it? Check, please.
Yeah. We cheer on people who quit jobs, or move to a different city or break up long term relationships - if they get out of an unbearable situation that way. Why can't people quit life in the same way?
Again, Robin Williams is a great example - we are not talking about a moody teenager who is uncertain how he feels. We are talking about an adult man who is fulfilled both professionally and personally. Why can't he at some point legitimately decide that what is ahead of him is more pain than fun and call it a day?
Yes & no
but it is cowardly.
Fun factoid: adults ages 45 to 64 now account for the largest number of suicides and have the fastest-growing suicide rate in the US among all demographics.
2nd place is apparently unarmed black teens.
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:40:30 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:33:58 PM
But he had three kids and a wife who by all accounts miss their dad terribly. It is they who have forever lost their father or husband, and because of them it is a selfish act.
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
Yeah, besides it's not like he left them struggling or young and unable to fend for themselves. He was 60-something when he committed suicide - that's the age people already die from natural causes.
My dad's 65. I'd still miss him terribly if he died tomorrow.
Of course. That does not address my point though.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:41:47 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.
So, according to you, is suicide always a bad decision?
Not always. I can imagine situations were it'd be okay with it - usually involving someone already suffering from a terminal illness, but maybe other situations.
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2014, 02:44:53 PM
Obviously I will live on even in constant excruciating pain if me dying would be terribly inconvenient for my friends and family.
:D
One famous historical figure, widely admired on Languish, killed himself once. Was his a good decision or a selfish one? Both? Or maybe all three.
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2014, 02:49:33 PM
One famous historical figure, widely admired on Languish, killed himself once. Was his a good decision or a selfish one? Both?
Are you talking about Hitler? :P
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:45:01 PMWhy can't he at some point legitimately decide that what is ahead of him is more pain than fun and call it a day?
Because it's not our decision to make.
We're not autonomous, independent individuals. We're bound by all sorts of social connections to people around us and in our past (and, indeed, future). They've got a legitimate interest and it's legitimate for them to say they still want someone, regardless of what that person feels.
I've enormous sympathy for any suicide because they're clearly suffering from something - whether it's depression, or whatever else - of such enormity that I can't easily imagine it winning. But we can have sympathy, and not judge them as bad people, but still say that suicide is selfish because it's mortgaging the worth of everyone who makes you for your own feelings.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:41:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.
Spoken like somebody who doesn't have a single clue about the sheer, brutal and debilitating weight that is chronic depression.
And toss early onset Parkinson's on top of it? Check, please.
I have a clue - listened to enough psychiatrists and psychologists to have picked up a few things, but I certainly don't have first hand experience (beyond the sadness we all feel at one point or another).
But one thing I do know is that
depression comes and goes/ Those feelings do not last forever.
Maybe I'm wrong, and in the weeks and months to come we'll find this was long-planned, and he left details farewells and goodbyes to his family, but to me it sounds very much like Mr. Williams was having a very low night and made a tragic decision that, if he would have survived the attempt, he would have later deeply regretted.
They've done studies - very few people who survive a serious suicide attempt go on later to kill themselves.
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:53:57 PM
They've done studies - very few people who survive a serious suicide attempt go on later to kill themselves.
I wonder what DGuller would say about this.
I see your point, Sheilbh, but I disagree. To me suicide is the ultimate free decision one can make. And I think if we remove the guilt element from it, we can help people pass away with more dignity than they do now.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:55:38 PM
I see your point, Sheilbh, but I disagree. To me suicide is the ultimate free decision one can make. And I think if we remove the guilt element from it, we can help people pass away with more dignity than they do now.
???
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-dimMIWS0NBY%2FU2l-iValtII%2FAAAAAAAAE4w%2FOH2MgAXJ9pg%2Fs1600%2F162_suicide-booth_1152.png&hash=48cf79f1e756a41b2a6321f232946522f47e81ad)
Depression is not just something that comes and goes. What is colloquially called "Depression" represents a vast set of symptoms and diagnoses. Clinical depression is NOT merely sadness, unhappiness or despair caused buy outside factors. That is living. Clinical depression is a chronic mental state where the brains methods of dealing with certain situations are often self destructive causing the brain user to be apathetic, frightened, insecure or self loathing.
IT IS NOT HAVING A BAD DAY.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsweatpantsandcoffee.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2FDepression-FB.jpg&hash=ef6bae2b7fd71201c84bcab81cc72ec174949321)
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 02:51:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:45:01 PMWhy can't he at some point legitimately decide that what is ahead of him is more pain than fun and call it a day?
Because it's not our decision to make.
We're not autonomous, independent individuals. We're bound by all sorts of social connections to people around us and in our past (and, indeed, future). They've got a legitimate interest and it's legitimate for them to say they still want someone, regardless of what that person feels.
Suicides have to be decided by plebiscites or will there be a bureaucratic apparatus that oversees suicides?
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:53:57 PM
I have a clue - listened to enough psychiatrists and psychologists to have picked up a few things, but I certainly don't have first hand experience (beyond the sadness we all feel at one point or another).
But one thing I do know is that depression comes and goes. Those feelings do not last forever.
Like I said, not a clue.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:59:41 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsweatpantsandcoffee.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2FDepression-FB.jpg&hash=ef6bae2b7fd71201c84bcab81cc72ec174949321)
Hmm, I don't know. I mean part of my treatment for depression involved trying to suss out reasons why I might be depressed and what sorts of things I could do to block my negative cognitions. Talk therapy wouldn't involve much if it never tried to look at any root causes. That said, yes it really should be more focused on how to cope as that's what is imperative.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 03:04:32 PM
Hmm, I don't know. I mean part of my treatment for depression involved trying to suss out reasons why I might be depressed and what sorts of things I could do to block my negative cognitions. Talk therapy wouldn't involve much if it never tried to look at any root causes. That said, yes it really should be more focused on how to cope as that's what is imperative.
Sure. But maybe stick with that for the therapists. Friends should just try and support and certainly not start rootling round my psyche.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 03:04:32 PM
Hmm, I don't know. I mean part of my treatment for depression involved trying to suss out reasons why I might be depressed and what sorts of things I could do to block my negative cognitions. Talk therapy wouldn't involve much if it never tried to look at any root causes. That said, yes it really should be more focused on how to cope as that's what is imperative.
With your therapist, sure, but if all your friends and family asked why you were so down all the time I'm not sure it'd help.
I always find the idea of dignity in death a little chilling.
Actually the weather has causes and shit, it has been found not to be "God/magic did it".
I find it hard to blame a guy suffering from depression for killing himself. To me that makes about as much sense as blaming a cancer patient for starving himself.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 03:07:30 PM
I always find the idea of dignity in death a little chilling.
I dunno - my father-in-law has terminal cancer and they're only giving him palliative care. What it means is that he's had an awesome summer so far visiting with lots of people, spending time with his grandkids and others, rather than being sick in a hospital room taking radical chmotherapy that only buys him a few extra months.
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2014, 03:08:38 PM
Actually the weather has causes and shit, it has been found not to be "God/magic did it".
I'm sure Fry would agree with that, but let's just equate therapists with meteorologists for the sake of fun.
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 03:10:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 03:07:30 PM
I always find the idea of dignity in death a little chilling.
I dunno - my father-in-law has terminal cancer and they're only giving him palliative care. What it means is that he's had an awesome summer so far visiting with lots of people, spending time with his grandkids and others, rather than being sick in a hospital room taking radical chmotherapy that only buys him a few extra months.
Sounds like dignity in life. :)
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 03:06:29 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 03:04:32 PM
Hmm, I don't know. I mean part of my treatment for depression involved trying to suss out reasons why I might be depressed and what sorts of things I could do to block my negative cognitions. Talk therapy wouldn't involve much if it never tried to look at any root causes. That said, yes it really should be more focused on how to cope as that's what is imperative.
Sure. But maybe stick with that for the therapists. Friends should just try and support and certainly not start rootling round my psyche.
And @Liep - Very fair.
I wish more languish posters would contemplate it.
Quote from: katmai on August 14, 2014, 03:11:58 PM
I wish more languish posters would contemplate it.
ZOMG Ban Katmai!
Quote from: katmai on August 14, 2014, 03:11:58 PM
I wish more languish posters would contemplate it.
I wish you the luck I never had.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 03:07:30 PM
I always find the idea of dignity in death a little chilling.
Meh, I don't know. One of my favourite literature image is a scene from "Quo Vadis" by Henryk Sienkiewicz, where Petronius, a Roman Patrician, eventually facing a death sentence from Nero, rather than going into hiding or begging for his life, chooses to organise a feast for his friends, and then, at the end of it retires to his bath to calmly cut his wrists. Maybe I'm morbid, but to me this scene has always epitomised dignity in the face of insurmountable obstacles (which could be external or internal).
Likewise, Francois Mitterand's last feast followed by what some believe to be an assisted suicide always struck me as dignified.
Quote from: Liep on August 14, 2014, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 14, 2014, 03:08:38 PM
Actually the weather has causes and shit, it has been found not to be "God/magic did it".
I'm sure Fry would agree with that, but let's just equate therapists with meteorologists for the sake of fun.
I agree. Meterologists are more scientific and have a greater rate of success. *badabing*
Quote from: Liep on August 14, 2014, 03:07:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 03:04:32 PM
Hmm, I don't know. I mean part of my treatment for depression involved trying to suss out reasons why I might be depressed and what sorts of things I could do to block my negative cognitions. Talk therapy wouldn't involve much if it never tried to look at any root causes. That said, yes it really should be more focused on how to cope as that's what is imperative.
With your therapist, sure, but if all your friends and family asked why you were so down all the time I'm not sure it'd help.
The main use for therapists in this case is to identify your own triggers, realize that they are triggers, creating coping strategies for dealing with those triggers, getting friends and family to reduce generating those triggers and in general appreciating that the symptoms are symptoms and not necessarily reality.
However, if friends and family insist on being mad at you for being depressed or insist you should just get over it, there is ultimately little you can do.
Quote from: Tyr on August 14, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
He's back, wow.
Only those people who throw themselves in front of trains are selfish.
If you can do it in a manner that doesn't inconvenience anyone then its fine.
Well, pretty much the only way that won't eventually inconvenience someone is to go out and be eaten by bears.
And even that might if the bear gets gas.
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 03:17:39 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 14, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
He's back, wow.
Only those people who throw themselves in front of trains are selfish.
If you can do it in a manner that doesn't inconvenience anyone then its fine.
Well, pretty much the only way that won't eventually inconvenience someone is to go out and be eaten by bears.
And even that might if the bear gets gas.
Even then the police will get a report of a missing hiker, have to go looking for the person. Or if human remains are discovered you have to go and recover them and do an autopsy to try and determine cause of death.
That's why you need to jump into a volcano. :contract:
Quote from: katmai on August 14, 2014, 03:11:58 PM
I wish more languish posters would contemplate it.
Be careful what you wish for, because
QuoteNow, whether you take others with you...well, that as Oprah would say, is for another show.
:ph34r:
Good luck trying to take katmai with you anywhere.
Ask my parents in a few months/years/tomorrow/whenever my cats die. Then again, don't. They'd probably be biased.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:41:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
It was obvious that he had had enough. And that was his call to make.
No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.
Spoken like somebody who doesn't have a single clue about the sheer, brutal and debilitating weight that is chronic depression.
And toss early onset Parkinson's on top of it? Check, please.
Yeah. We cheer on people who quit jobs, or move to a different city or break up long term relationships - if they get out of an unbearable situation that way. Why can't people quit life in the same way?
Again, Robin Williams is a great example - we are not talking about a moody teenager who is uncertain how he feels. We are talking about an adult man who is fulfilled both professionally and personally. Why can't he at some point legitimately decide that what is ahead of him is more pain than fun and call it a day?
Is that what happened?
I head he was suffering from depression, and hence not acting with his full rational faculties.
Depression isn't psychosis.
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 03:17:39 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 14, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
If you can do it in a manner that doesn't inconvenience anyone then its fine.
Well, pretty much the only way that won't eventually inconvenience someone is to go out and be eaten by bears.
But see, bears are so adorably cute, it's almost pleasant to be mauled to death by one.
Think of all the other nasty critters out there that can kill you. Snakes? Spider bite? Fuck that noise.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 14, 2014, 03:26:49 PM
Ask my parents in a few months/years/tomorrow/whenever my cats die. Then again, don't. They'd probably be biased.
First you should reflect on how many thousands of cats are killed every year because they can't find anyone to take care of them.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 14, 2014, 03:30:38 PM
Depression isn't psychosis.
But it comes and goes, like a case of the Mondays!
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 03:10:25 PM
I dunno - my father-in-law has terminal cancer and they're only giving him palliative care. What it means is that he's had an awesome summer so far visiting with lots of people, spending time with his grandkids and others, rather than being sick in a hospital room taking radical chmotherapy that only buys him a few extra months.
I agree with Brain. That's dignity in life. Palliative care and the hospice movement are something else entirely and very admirable.
The idea of dignity in death is to me as unhuman as dignity in childbirth or sex. It's not dignified. Even in the white-washed walls of a Dignitas clinic, we can't control it. It's as unattainable as an elegant death or a decorous one. I worry about a society that manages, or seriously tries for dignity in death. Inevitably the world leader is Switzerland. Trying to control your valediction with loved ones - or with a grand dinner - is something different and attainable.
Guess Sheilbh's not going to win the VC anytime soon. No dignity in it.
When Courtney Love read that suicide note on tv in 1993 she ended by chanting asshole asshole asshole at her late husband. I'm guessing Cobain wasn't the only one to blame there.
And no, I think attacking someone for committing suicide is victim-blaming.
Even the most well-adjusted responsible people have their limits. Even Ned Flanders would lash out and kill a man if pushed to enough desperation.
Quote from: Viking on August 14, 2014, 02:22:38 PM
I vote we ban Martinus again if this is how he chooses to return.
And, to your question, in your case it would be altruistic.
This if fine, and a decent question.
I say it's mostly selfish. If you are flying your plane into an aircraft carrier it's not such a selfish act.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 14, 2014, 02:22:38 PM
I vote we ban Martinus again if this is how he chooses to return.
And, to your question, in your case it would be altruistic.
This if fine, and a decent question.
I say it's mostly selfish. If you are flying your plane into an aircraft carrier it's not such a selfish act.
Stop inciting Neil
Quote from: Ideologue on August 14, 2014, 03:30:38 PM
Depression isn't psychosis.
This is true but it can result in in psychosis and it certainly clouds judgement. I suspect he may have had manic-depression which causes all sorts of weird behavior.
Quote from: Viking on August 14, 2014, 04:42:19 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2014, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 14, 2014, 02:22:38 PM
I vote we ban Martinus again if this is how he chooses to return.
And, to your question, in your case it would be altruistic.
This if fine, and a decent question.
I say it's mostly selfish. If you are flying your plane into an aircraft carrier it's not such a selfish act.
Stop inciting Neil
That would be flying a plane into a dreadnought.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 14, 2014, 04:32:37 PM
When Courtney Love read that suicide note on tv in 1993 she ended by chanting asshole asshole asshole at her late husband. I'm guessing Cobain wasn't the only one to blame there.
And no, I think attacking someone for committing suicide is victim-blaming.
Even the most well-adjusted responsible people have their limits. Even Ned Flanders would lash out and kill a man if pushed to enough desperation.
I don't think it is victim blaming to call it selfish.
Yeah maybe not. But I'd rather call it desperate.
Desperate? No, I think it is just honest.
Possibly so. I don't think the two conflict.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:18:31 PM
Is suicide really selfish?
This is a good question, but I also wonder: Is masturbation really selfish? :hmm:
Is suicide really painless?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 14, 2014, 05:30:33 PM
Possibly so. I don't think the two conflict.
Oh you are saying suicide is out of desperation. I thought you were saying people calling it selfish were desperate. :D
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2014, 05:40:00 PM
Is suicide really painless?
Does it bring on many changes?
Quote from: Barrister on August 14, 2014, 03:21:23 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 14, 2014, 03:17:39 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 14, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
He's back, wow.
Only those people who throw themselves in front of trains are selfish.
If you can do it in a manner that doesn't inconvenience anyone then its fine.
Well, pretty much the only way that won't eventually inconvenience someone is to go out and be eaten by bears.
And even that might if the bear gets gas.
Even then the police will get a report of a missing hiker, have to go looking for the person. Or if human remains are discovered you have to go and recover them and do an autopsy to try and determine cause of death.
And that's a fair point.
Suicide is an extremely selfish act. But selfish acts cannot always be categorized as black/white evil acts. We do lots of things everyday that are selfish, but may accidentally/indirectly help others (mostly economically).
And as you said, the way our society is built, having a great value in life, any attempt to commit suicide will ultimately result in the expenditure of communal/government assets to find/solve/rescue. And usually whoever finds your lifeless corpse may be sickened/traumatized/saddened.
And if you have family/children for whom you are responsible, then it easily goes from being just a selfish act to a very negligent and irresponsible one. Even if if the reasons that precipitated the act might be understandable.
As mentioned, only that lone person with no family or paper-trail, who manages to find a volcano to fall into, might truly be able to call their suicide a purely non-harmful, unobtrusive, selfish act.
Unless that volcano god finds out you weren't really a virgin...
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:18:31 PM
So, every time someone commits suicide you get those voices that "suicide is selfish" etc.
But is it really? Isn't it more selfish to expect people living in pain and anguish - be it physical or mental - to continue living for our pleasure, so they can be in our lives, or worse still, make more movies or entertain us?
Discuss.
Edit: For the record, I am not contemplating suicide. I just find it to be a valid option.
it can be selfish, but the concept isn't selfish. it's the same with divorce, just on a more extreme scale
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 14, 2014, 02:51:46 PMWe're not autonomous, independent individuals. We're bound by all sorts of social connections to people around us and in our past (and, indeed, future).
if this were true, there would be no suicide. people commit suicide, however, therefore we are independent individuals. society tries to keep individualism in check, and sometimes it fails. for acts like suicide, i think it's a balance of evils. the person's enjoyment versus the family. if the person has obligations to a child, i think he should stick it out until at least the child has matured. but, at the end of the day, people die.
preventing someone from taking his own life if he truly wishes to die (as opposed to spontaneous acts on impulse) due to a selfish desire to keep that person alive for one's own sake is the worse evil, imo.
Quote from: LaCroix on August 14, 2014, 06:43:29 PM
preventing someone from taking his own life if he truly wishes to die (as opposed to spontaneous acts on impulse) due to a selfish desire to keep that person alive for one's own sake is the worse evil, imo.
Well aren't you a twisted little man?
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 06:48:31 PMWell aren't you a twisted little man?
it's not about being twisted, it's about what makes sense. i mean, think about it. a child doesn't want his parents to get divorced, but sometimes divorce is really better for the parents. there's always going to be a selfishness element when dictating other peoples' lives. as mentioned, i think it's right to stop a friend's suicide attempt because his girlfriend just broke up with him or whatever. but, some people are born differently, and those people reach the conclusion after many years of suffering that they wish to die. it's selfish to prevent it, and there are some circumstances where i don't think it should necessarily be prevented.
I don't think it would even be fair to say that for most suicides it is better for that person to be committing suicide.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:08:04 PM
I don't think it would even be fair to say that for most suicides it is better for that person to be committing suicide.
i'm not saying that. most suicides probably result from impulse. most circumstantial suicide is also wrong - financial stress, for example. though, i don't have a problem with suicide as a result of principle. a captain going down with his ship takes courage. same with self-immolation, or someone throwing himself onto a grenade.
I'm not sure what use it is talking about cases on the margins then.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:21:25 PM
I'm not sure what use it is talking about cases on the margins then.
well, not with marti's original post. i don't think marti was asking whether suicide is always good, either. he said whether "every time" someone commits suicide.
Well if we had to be limited to such a juvenile question then sure. I mean generally the answer is no to an "always" sort of question.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 07:32:42 PM
Well if we had to be limited to such a juvenile question then sure. I mean generally the answer is no to an "always" sort of question.
some responses in this thread seem to disagree :hmm:
Suicide is selfish, yes, but I believe impossible to generalize as intrinsically indefensible or an unalienable right. It's just that the person's survival instinct has been overwhelmed by their perception of their circumstances. Since different people have different thresholds, it's impossible to evaluate except on a case-by-case basis.
It is selfish, but people have a right to be selfish.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 14, 2014, 08:56:11 PM
It is selfish, but people have a right to be selfish.
Again, you're talking in generalizations. Some people have lower thresholds where their will to continue surviving will be surpassed, and in many of those cases, those people can (and often should) be counseled away from the precipice. The question of where that line is drawn (what's a "justified" or "unjustified" suicide) is completely subjective, so that's why I'm refusing to answer with a blanket "yes" or "no" on the topic.
What a courageous stand!
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:18:31 PM
So, every time someone commits suicide you get those voices that "suicide is selfish" etc.
But is it really? Isn't it more selfish to expect people living in pain and anguish - be it physical or mental - to continue living for our pleasure, so they can be in our lives, or worse still, make more movies or entertain us?
Discuss.
Edit: For the record, I am not contemplating suicide. I just find it to be a valid option.
Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem.
And all problems in life are temporary.
LOL, I forgot to unban Siegy. Sorry, Siege. :lol:
Quote from: Siege on August 14, 2014, 09:42:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2014, 02:18:31 PM
So, every time someone commits suicide you get those voices that "suicide is selfish" etc.
But is it really? Isn't it more selfish to expect people living in pain and anguish - be it physical or mental - to continue living for our pleasure, so they can be in our lives, or worse still, make more movies or entertain us?
Discuss.
Edit: For the record, I am not contemplating suicide. I just find it to be a valid option.
Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem.
And all problems in life are temporary.
So is life. Arguments like this fail to acknowledge that we do not live forever.
My mum attempted suicide no less than four times in the early stages of dementia - when she knew she had it but wasn't affecting her too badly. Between attempts she talked about it and told me she wanted dad to move on and be happy, so for her it was altruistic. Dad honestly didn't know whether to call an ambulance that final time, because she was already quite ill and she had expressed that she just wanted to not suffer any more.
Quote from: Siege on August 14, 2014, 09:42:31 PM
Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem.
And all problems in life are temporary.
Not always, like when you're suffering an incurable condition like my mum.
I wish we'd do something about the stigma attached to suicide, so people won't be forced to go through it all alone and often in very painful circumstances.
It's a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.
Quote from: Brazen on August 15, 2014, 05:51:44 AM
My mum attempted suicide no less than four times in the early stages of dementia - when she knew she had it but wasn't affecting her too badly. Between attempts she talked about it and told me she wanted dad to move on and be happy, so for her it was altruistic. Dad honestly didn't know whether to call an ambulance that final time, because she was already quite ill and she had expressed that she just wanted to not suffer any more.
Wow. :(
Quote from: Brazen on August 15, 2014, 05:51:44 AM
My mum attempted suicide no less than four times in the early stages of dementia - when she knew she had it but wasn't affecting her too badly. Between attempts she talked about it and told me she wanted dad to move on and be happy, so for her it was altruistic. Dad honestly didn't know whether to call an ambulance that final time, because she was already quite ill and she had expressed that she just wanted to not suffer any more.
:hug:
I'm not gonna share but I do know how you feel.
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 06:10:33 AM
I wish we'd do something about the stigma attached to suicide, so people won't be forced to go through it all alone and often in very painful circumstances.
It's a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.
I don't. Most people shouldn't be receiving encouragement/support in their decision to commit suicide.
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 07:34:14 AM
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 06:10:33 AM
I wish we'd do something about the stigma attached to suicide, so people won't be forced to go through it all alone and often in very painful circumstances.
It's a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.
I don't. Most people shouldn't be receiving encouragement/support in their decision to commit suicide.
Maybe, but some should. Which is what I was getting at. In many countries you can't even discuss it with a doctor.
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 07:34:14 AM
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 06:10:33 AM
I wish we'd do something about the stigma attached to suicide, so people won't be forced to go through it all alone and often in very painful circumstances.
It's a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.
I don't. Most people shouldn't be receiving encouragement/support in their decision to commit suicide.
Maybe, but some should. Which is what I was getting at. In many countries you can't even discuss it with a doctor.
Where does that fit along "do no harm"?
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 12:28:22 PM
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 07:34:14 AM
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 06:10:33 AM
I wish we'd do something about the stigma attached to suicide, so people won't be forced to go through it all alone and often in very painful circumstances.
It's a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.
I don't. Most people shouldn't be receiving encouragement/support in their decision to commit suicide.
Maybe, but some should. Which is what I was getting at. In many countries you can't even discuss it with a doctor.
Where does that fit along "do no harm"?
When it is used as a last resort? When a doctor has tried everything else? I don't see the problem.
I find it harder to fit 'do no harm' along patients being starved to death in hospitals.
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 12:38:36 PM
When it is used as a last resort? When a doctor has tried everything else? I don't see the problem.
Not all doctors are equal.
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 12:38:36 PM
I find it harder to fit 'do no harm' along patients being starved to death in hospitals.
:unsure:
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 12:40:17 PM
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 12:38:36 PM
When it is used as a last resort? When a doctor has tried everything else? I don't see the problem.
Not all doctors are equal.
Which is why you have to talk to several of them when dealing with these kinds of decisions.
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 12:40:17 PM
Quote from: Maladict on August 15, 2014, 12:38:36 PM
I find it harder to fit 'do no harm' along patients being starved to death in hospitals.
:unsure:
I didn't phrase that correctly. I meant people being denied the possibility of assisted suicide starving themselves to death (or taken off life support), often in hospitals with doctors not allowed to end their suffering. It doesn't make much sense to me.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:46:31 PM
LOL, I forgot to unban Siegy. Sorry, Siege. :lol:
Fuck you. You did it intentionally.
Worst moderator ever.
At least I can hold my apple cider.
Quote from: Siege on August 19, 2014, 10:47:15 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:46:31 PM
LOL, I forgot to unban Siegy. Sorry, Siege. :lol:
Fuck you. You did it intentionally.
Worst moderator ever.
They forgot to unban me for a year. <_<
Clear the air!
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2014, 10:57:21 AM
Quote from: Siege on August 19, 2014, 10:47:15 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:46:31 PM
LOL, I forgot to unban Siegy. Sorry, Siege. :lol:
Fuck you. You did it intentionally.
Worst moderator ever.
They forgot to unban me for a year. <_<
Clear the air!
You weren't really banned.
Was it deliberate that Marty came back with the topic which earned him a ban?
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2014, 10:57:21 AM
Quote from: Siege on August 19, 2014, 10:47:15 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 14, 2014, 09:46:31 PM
LOL, I forgot to unban Siegy. Sorry, Siege. :lol:
Fuck you. You did it intentionally.
Worst moderator ever.
They forgot to unban me for a year. <_<
Clear the air!
We never forgot to unban you, it was on purpose. :)
Quote from: Tamas on August 19, 2014, 12:17:11 PM
Was it deliberate that Marty came back with the topic which earned him a ban?
How so?
Raz, you should kill yourself.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 20, 2014, 03:02:19 AM
Raz, you should kill yourself.
Hey, that was unwarranted.
That's what we all thought.
Suicide is selfish. Eating is selfish. Not everything selfish is bad.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F82%2F82ff204b4cbe5e4bc3f58395ad76d96f4d9aba9a1ac4a6dca6aaba066523e73a.jpg&hash=a3fd9637107321d844f32631d9facf3f93f811f2)
Quote from: grumbler on August 20, 2014, 07:28:53 AM
Suicide is selfish. Eating is selfish. Not everything selfish is bad.
Suicide by eating, however, is gross.
Quote from: Malthus on August 21, 2014, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 20, 2014, 07:28:53 AM
Suicide is selfish. Eating is selfish. Not everything selfish is bad.
Suicide by eating, however, is gross.
Not necessarily. "Mine Vaganti" has a wonderful scene of suicide by eating.
I would rather commit suicide than eat shellfish.
Quote from: sbr on August 21, 2014, 09:14:33 AM
I would rather commit suicide than eat shellfish.
I think I restrained myself from making that pun about a dozen of times. :Embarrass:
I guess you are able to control your impulsive behavior better than me.
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2014, 09:09:40 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 21, 2014, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 20, 2014, 07:28:53 AM
Suicide is selfish. Eating is selfish. Not everything selfish is bad.
Suicide by eating, however, is gross.
Not necessarily. "Mine Vaganti" has a wonderful scene of suicide by eating.
I was thinking more of this scene ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJZPzQESq_0