Is suicide really selfish?

[The Brain]

One famous historical figure, widely admired on Languish, killed himself once. Was his a good decision or a selfish one? Both? Or maybe all three.

[Martinus]

One famous historical figure, widely admired on Languish, killed himself once. Was his a good decision or a selfish one? Both?

Are you talking about Hitler?

[Sheilbh]

Why can't he at some point legitimately decide that what is ahead of him is more pain than fun and call it a day?

Because it's not our decision to make.

We're not autonomous, independent individuals. We're bound by all sorts of social connections to people around us and in our past (and, indeed, future). They've got a legitimate interest and it's legitimate for them to say they still want someone, regardless of what that person feels.

I've enormous sympathy for any suicide because they're clearly suffering from something - whether it's depression, or whatever else - of such enormity that I can't easily imagine it winning. But we can have sympathy, and not judge them as bad people, but still say that suicide is selfish because it's mortgaging the worth of everyone who makes you for your own feelings.

[Barrister]

It was obvious that he had had enough.  And that was his call to make.

No, it was obvious he was having a bad day, and made a bad decision in a moment of pain.

Spoken like somebody who doesn't have a single clue about the sheer, brutal and debilitating weight that is chronic depression.

And toss early onset Parkinson's on top of it? Check, please.

I have a clue - listened to enough psychiatrists and psychologists to have picked up a few things, but I certainly don't have first hand experience (beyond the sadness we all feel at one point or another).

But one thing I do know is that depression comes and goes/  Those feelings do not last forever.

Maybe I'm wrong, and in the weeks and months to come we'll find this was long-planned, and he left details farewells and goodbyes to his family, but to me it sounds very much like Mr. Williams was having a very low night and made a tragic decision that, if he would have survived the attempt, he would have later deeply regretted.

They've done studies - very few people who survive a serious suicide attempt go on later to kill themselves.

[The Brain]

They've done studies - very few people who survive a serious suicide attempt go on later to kill themselves.

I wonder what DGuller would say about this.

[Martinus]

I see your point, Sheilbh, but I disagree. To me suicide is the ultimate free decision one can make. And I think if we remove the guilt element from it, we can help people pass away with more dignity than they do now.

[Barrister]

I see your point, Sheilbh, but I disagree. To me suicide is the ultimate free decision one can make. And I think if we remove the guilt element from it, we can help people pass away with more dignity than they do now.

???

[Viking]

Depression is not just something that comes and goes. What is colloquially called "Depression" represents a vast set of symptoms and diagnoses. Clinical depression is NOT merely sadness, unhappiness or despair caused buy outside factors. That is living. Clinical depression is a chronic mental state where the brains methods of dealing with certain situations are often self destructive causing the brain user to be apathetic, frightened, insecure or self loathing.

IT IS NOT HAVING A BAD DAY.

[Martinus]

[citizen k]

Why can't he at some point legitimately decide that what is ahead of him is more pain than fun and call it a day?

Because it's not our decision to make.

We're not autonomous, independent individuals. We're bound by all sorts of social connections to people around us and in our past (and, indeed, future). They've got a legitimate interest and it's legitimate for them to say they still want someone, regardless of what that person feels.

Suicides have to be decided by plebiscites or will there be a bureaucratic apparatus that oversees suicides?

[CountDeMoney]

I have a clue - listened to enough psychiatrists and psychologists to have picked up a few things, but I certainly don't have first hand experience (beyond the sadness we all feel at one point or another).

But one thing I do know is that depression comes and goes. Those feelings do not last forever.

Like I said, not a clue.

[garbon]

Hmm, I don't know. I mean part of my treatment for depression involved trying to suss out reasons why I might be depressed and what sorts of things I could do to block my negative cognitions. Talk therapy wouldn't involve much if it never tried to look at any root causes.  That said, yes it really should be more focused on how to cope as that's what is imperative.

[Sheilbh]

Hmm, I don't know. I mean part of my treatment for depression involved trying to suss out reasons why I might be depressed and what sorts of things I could do to block my negative cognitions. Talk therapy wouldn't involve much if it never tried to look at any root causes.  That said, yes it really should be more focused on how to cope as that's what is imperative.

Sure. But maybe stick with that for the therapists. Friends should just try and support and certainly not start rootling round my psyche.

[Liep]

Hmm, I don't know. I mean part of my treatment for depression involved trying to suss out reasons why I might be depressed and what sorts of things I could do to block my negative cognitions. Talk therapy wouldn't involve much if it never tried to look at any root causes.  That said, yes it really should be more focused on how to cope as that's what is imperative.

With your therapist, sure, but if all your friends and family asked why you were so down all the time I'm not sure it'd help.

[Sheilbh]

I always find the idea of dignity in death a little chilling.