European and local elections today.
Due to European law there's no exit polls for the EP vote until Sunday (presumably someone still has to vote), but the Dutch have a weird exception if they're verbal and not written :lol:
The Dutch result looks better than expected. Hard-left Socialists overtook the centre left. Wilders is down to third and the left-liberal D66 have won. Although it's amazing how fragmented the Dutch system is:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoQxQzhCYAAqT7q.jpg)
It looks like there could be record turnout in a Euro-poll in the UK maybe even reaching 40%, which probably means something. Also a few important local elections that'll give an idea of how things'll go next year. There's also hopes that Labour may be able to oust Islamist-linked extremely corrupt Mayor of Tower Hamlets, Lutfur Rahman, as turnout's higher there than last time but that result won't come out till tomorrow. Half the councils count the votes tonight, half start tomorrow.
Here's a list of important-ish results by the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/22/uk-local-elections-11-results-to-watch
According to the Bagehot it'll be a good night for Labour and UKIP if they win 300 and 150 councillors respectively and for the Lib Dems and Tories if they lose fewer than 200 and 150. The Greens are also hoping for a breakthrough.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 03:56:24 PM
It looks like there could be record turnout in a Euro-poll in the UK maybe even reaching 40%, which probably means something.
It means the British people are rallying to the glorious EU standard?
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2014, 03:57:44 PM
It means the British people are rallying to the glorious EU standard?
Labour think it's good for them. So, maybe?
My guess would be more postal ballots and elderly people (especially as the weather wasn't great today) which would probably help UKIP.
I voted; interesting ballot paper, major parties then UKIP, then Greens and the rest of the 2ft paper was extreme/splinter anti-Europe/racist parties.
No socialist option. :hmm:
We don't vote until Sunday. The Danish version of Wilders/UKIP, Danish People's Party, is going to be the biggest party by a good margin according to polls. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Liep on May 22, 2014, 04:27:27 PM
We don't vote until Sunday. The Danish version of Wilders/UKIP, Danish People's Party, is going to be the biggest party by a good margin according to polls. :Embarrass:
Polls also claimed Wilders would become the biggest party.
That is comforting, but did your opposition leader shoot himself in the foot a few days before the election as well? And is your PM generally hated throughout the populace?
Quote from: Liep on May 22, 2014, 04:27:27 PM
We don't vote until Sunday. The Danish version of Wilders/UKIP, Danish People's Party, is going to be the biggest party by a good margin according to polls. :Embarrass:
Polls say the same about UKIP and FN, and on the far-left SYRIZA. We'll see.
It is entirely possible that the ones saying they'll vote anti-EU far-right isn't really that interested in the EU at all and are just not going to vote.
Why does everybody vote for the most insane parties to the EU parliament? Does the EU Parliament not have any actual power or something?
No, Monoliu.
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
Why does everybody vote for the most insane parties to the EU parliament? Does the EU Parliament not have any actual power or something?
The insane parties usually want less power to the EU, which is ironic because they end up with no influence in the EU and thereby giving more influence per vote away to the pro-EU parties.
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
Why does everybody vote for the most insane parties to the EU parliament? Does the EU Parliament not have any actual power or something?
Its powers have increased precisely as turnout's fallen and fringe parties have risen.
I don't know why. Arguably part of it - from the eurosceptic view - is that increasingly power is Europeanm which will increase wildly as the Eurozone integrates more rapidly, so the mainstream parties aren't able to make credible promises any more. The difference between PS government and UMP is the type of austerity not the overall policy, similarly there's very little difference between Tory and Labour on immigration because a lot of it's from the EU so there's not really much they can do. So the whole 'there's no difference between them' dynamic causes people to go to the extremes.
Also in most countries both main parties have been discredited. Labour had the crash, the Tories and the Lib Dems have had the subsequent recessions. Sarko had the crash, Hollande and Valls are still passing the austerity. Same with Berlusconi, Monti, Renzi and Letta; or PASOK and ND; or Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. Even in Germany I think it's worrying that the FDP have sunk and the left has split and I think Grand Coalition could cause problems for the SPD because the Left are now the official opposition. So again the mainstream's unusually weak.
My own view - and I don't know why - is that we're all moving towards a Dutch or a Czech system of extremely fractured and fractious politics. UKIPs got a lot of press but the rise of populist parties and extremists seems a European trend that's been developing for about 20 years.
QuoteThe insane parties usually want less power to the EU, which is ironic because they end up with no influence in the EU and thereby giving more influence per vote away to the pro-EU parties.
Farage has pointed out that the Eurosceptic left (Greens, various Socialists and Communists) and Eurosceptic right (UKIP, FN etc) could have enough votes in the Parliament for a blocking minority. Especially if they can occasionally get the votes of the reformist right (Tories etc).
First results so I've always wondered, Tyr, do you know why Sunderland is always the first to report? Is it like a badge of local pride or something?
Even when they cut to Sunderland South during a general election there's always council workers running with the ballot boxes to get counting :lol:
Those two first results are very good for UKIP and seems to tally with the theory that they could do well in traditional Labour areas of the North. Safe Labour areas of Sunderland - LAB - 47.8% UKIP - 30.1% CON - 14.3% GRN - 4.8% LDEM - 3.1% and no percentages but in St. Anne's 1022 votes for Labour, UKIP second with 702.
Edit: I just read an article. Apparently Sunderland use lighter ballot papers and rope in sixth formers to run in the boxes during a general election. All to count the quickest. Why? :blink: :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
Why does everybody vote for the most insane parties to the EU parliament? Does the EU Parliament not have any actual power or something?
Why do people vote Republican?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 05:28:44 PM
First results so I've always wondered, Tyr, do you know why Sunderland is always the first to report? Is it like a badge of local pride or something?
Even when they cut to Sunderland South during a general election there's always council workers running with the ballot boxes to get counting :lol:
Those two first results are very good for UKIP and seems to tally with the theory that they could do well in traditional Labour areas of the North. Safe Labour areas of Sunderland - LAB - 47.8% UKIP - 30.1% CON - 14.3% GRN - 4.8% LDEM - 3.1% and no percentages but in St. Anne's 1022 votes for Labour, UKIP second with 702.
Edit: I just read an article. Apparently Sunderland use lighter ballot papers and rope in sixth formers to run in the boxes during a general election. All to count the quickest. Why? :blink: :lol:
Shelf, we Brits love creating odd local traditional games, don't we. :bowler:
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2014, 06:25:11 PM
Why do people vote Republican?
They don't want the gub'mint taking away their guns or money. Duh.
I'd be surprised at a record turnout around here simply because it rained heavily (including thunder and lightning) for several hours in the afternoon.
Broke ranks with the Tories for the first time ever (voting UKIP.) Terrible ballot paper - even without the shades of the LITeral Democrats fiasco (the first party on the ballot used "an Independence from Europe" slogan-type party name with absolutely terrible grammar whereas UKIP was nearly at the bottom of the ballot) there were too many candidates; it took me three goes to get it in the ballot box! :lol:.
You should at least have to put up a full slate of five (or appropriate number depending on your region) candidates in this sort of election. :glare:
Sheilbh, do you have the swing for that result you've posted?
Looking like an enjoyably catastrophic night for the Lib Dems - Vince Cable, their more lefty deputy leader, has been very poised in his support for Nick Clegg. The Tories aren't doing well and their Eurosceptics are already out on manoeuvres :mmm:
Labour's doing badly and playing down their expectations. Seems UKIP's doing well in the North and playing havoc with their vote elsewhere - such as Swindon and Portsmouth.
UKIP so far are doing well without winning many seats so far. There's 4000 council seats up for election. But they have beaten the Labour Lord Mayor of Hull whose response was 'I can't complain - I've had a good run over 26 years.' :lol:
Quote from: Agelastus on May 22, 2014, 06:30:02 PM
Sheilbh, do you have the swing for that result you've posted?
Sunderland? The Labour vote is lower than it was in 2010. Popular vote so far in Sunderland is, I think:
Lab 48%
Con 24%
UKIP 22%
Green 3%
LD 3%
That was a 16% swing from Labour to UKIP.
Edit: And, I think, the Tories basically flatlined and the Lib Dems collapsed.
Mike Hancock's lost the seat he was running for in Portsmouth to UKIP :w00t:
Quote from: mongers on May 22, 2014, 06:27:45 PM
Shelf, we Brits love creating odd local traditional games, don't we. :bowler:
Is it a game if you're the only one playing? :P
Interesting.
Before that result I hadn't really believed the pundits who were saying that UKIP was attracting left wing votes; it seemed so odd given many of their other policies. The headline ones (Immigration, Europe, Defence, Foreign Aid) may cross party lines but as I think you pointed out the rest of their policies are more Libertarian than anything else. :hmm:
Oh, and that should be "former" Lord Mayor of Hull, Sheilbh (he's not the current one.) Although given his name is David Gemmell maybe we'll have a Drus or a Waylander riding to his aid... :lol:
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2014, 06:25:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
Why does everybody vote for the most insane parties to the EU parliament? Does the EU Parliament not have any actual power or something?
Why do people vote Republican?
Same reason people vote Democrat. They hate the other party.
But people are not voting these nutty parties to their national parliaments in the same numbers.
UKIP won a couple of seats in Basildon. Here's one that must hurt the Lib Dems:
Ukip: 1156
Labour: 906.
Conservatives: 427
Liberal Democrats: 33
The Lib Dems also lost a seat with a 44% swing to UKIP :bleeding:
QuoteBut people are not voting these nutty parties to their national parliaments in the same numbers.
Part of that's surely a function of the system though. The UK's got first past the post, I think the French system favours big parties too. But these nutty parties are present in national parliaments in, for example, the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Greece, Ireland etc.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 06:54:57 PM
UKIP won a couple of seats in Basildon. Here's one that must hurt the Lib Dems:
Ukip: 1156
Labour: 906.
Conservatives: 427
Liberal Democrats: 33
Ouch.
QuoteThe Lib Dems also lost a seat with a 44% swing to UKIP :bleeding:
Double Ouch.
And yet I can't feel as happy about this as I would have done five years ago had the same thing occurred given the probable main reason the LibDem's are hemorrhaging support. :(
Oh bloody hell. I've just been browsing through the minor parties that fielded candidates in only one or two regions of the UK and I've discovered that not only is Arthur Scargill still in politics but that he and I are in agreement over something.
I'll be :boff:.
Arthur Scargill's on Twitter. Which is odd.
By the way Sheilbh, did you see Jacob Rees-Mogg's performance on Have I Got News For You? I thought it was quite good, even if he did seem to come over as almost a caricature of the urbane aristocrat.
I'm not convinced his idea of a "coupon election" ticket for the Tories is a good idea, however - I think it could backfire badly; not that it'll get anywhere, of course. David Lloyd George is still remembered by the party, after all.
Quote from: Agelastus on May 22, 2014, 07:20:01 PM
By the way Sheilbh, did you see Jacob Rees-Mogg's performance on Have I Got News For You? I thought it was quite good, even if he did seem to come over as almost a caricature of the urbane aristocrat.
I love Mogg. But he is a caricature. As evidenced by referencing the 1918 election as a model :lol:
Having said that it's annoying to see Grant Shapps taking the piss out of him <_<
QuoteI'm not convinced his idea of a "coupon election" ticket for the Tories is a good idea, however - I think it could backfire badly; not that it'll get anywhere, of course. David Lloyd George is still remembered by the party, after all.
No, I think it'd be mad. Him, Carswell and Bone coming out for it seems coordinated.
A couple of signs so far that UKIP is consolidating the anti-Labour vote in the North, confirmed by Labour MP Graham Stringer who's also ripped into the Labour leadership: wants an EU referendum and said the campaign was 'unforgivably unprofessional' :bleeding:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 07:25:31 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on May 22, 2014, 07:20:01 PM
By the way Sheilbh, did you see Jacob Rees-Mogg's performance on Have I Got News For You? I thought it was quite good, even if he did seem to come over as almost a caricature of the urbane aristocrat.
I love Mogg. But he is a caricature. As evidenced by referencing the 1918 election as a model :lol:
Having said that it's annoying to see Grant Shapps taking the piss out of him <_<
He's as dishonest as Boris is, their intentional self-parody is designed to appeal to their electorates, whilst covering up their real political intelligence and intentions.
I don't see that with Mogg. This is him as a 10 year old:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BClENpaCcAAfeP5.jpg)
He's married an heiress (the daughter of Somerset Struben de Chair) and he has a nanny for his children.
I think he's a hard-core Brideshead Catholic conservative, who behaves and dresses and speaks like a hard-core Brideshead Catholic conservative.
Edit: He sent his first letter to the FT aged 12 for God's sake :lol:
Edit: Also UKIP have won all five seats in Rotherham that have reported, which was one of their targets.
Edit: Incidentally Jeremy Vine looking at wards so far, mostly in Labour areas - Labour 40% (-), UKIP 28% (+27), Tories 21%(-8), Lib Dems 8% (-15). On last local elections Labour are down 14%, UKIP's up 20%, Tories and Lib Dems down 3%. I think it is possible UKIP could become the anti-Labour party in the North.
For example Labour's apparently lost Hartlepool. The Tories have lost two Essex councils because of UKIP and Labour will keep Rotherham (they've had it for 80 years) but there'll be a proper opposition now. So far 9 Labour councillors, 8 UKIP (5-6 won from Labour - including the Leader and Deputy Leader of the council :blink:).
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 03:56:24 PM
According to the Bagehot it'll be a good night for Labour and UKIP if they win 300 and 150 councillors respectively and for the Lib Dems and Tories if they lose fewer than 200 and 150. The Greens are also hoping for a breakthrough.
We've had about 1/8 of the total seats in, so it's still very early. But so far Labour have gained 14, the Tories have lost 64, the Lib Dems have lost 21. UKIP have gained 68 - which is more councillors than they had about 5 years ago.
Alarmingly for Labour in addition to the rest of the trouble in Rotherham, apparently UKIP won the popular vote in Rotherham. There's a new Labour MP there after the previous one resigned in 2012 after being convicted over expenses. It's definitely a major target for them in 2015.
Edit: Yep. Popular vote in Rotherham:
UKIP: 30,084 (44.3%)
Labour: 27,793 (40.9%)
Conservative: 6,482 (9.5%)
Other: 3,611 :o
Quote from: Agelastus on May 22, 2014, 07:20:01 PM
By the way Sheilbh, did you see Jacob Rees-Mogg's performance on Have I Got News For You? I thought it was quite good, even if he did seem to come over as almost a caricature of the urbane aristocrat.
It was pretty good. :yes:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 07:46:54 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BClENpaCcAAfeP5.jpg)
OMG, it's the young Niles Crane! :o
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 06:54:57 PM
Part of that's surely a function of the system though. The UK's got first past the post, I think the French system favours big parties too. But these nutty parties are present in national parliaments in, for example, the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Greece, Ireland etc.
It's true, except for European elections, where it's full proportional representation.
I'll vote twice, Portugal is not far away, while in Paris that is (2 metro stations to the Consulate) and of course in the election that the FN is poised to win.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 06:54:57 PM
Part of that's surely a function of the system though. The UK's got first past the post, I think the French system favours big parties too. But these nutty parties are present in national parliaments in, for example, the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Greece, Ireland etc.
For the Netherlands, it's part of a long-established system, rooted in religious affiliation.
Traditionally, every tiny religious splinter group had its own newspaper, radio station, school, union, and political party.
Most of these have disappeared, only the political fracturing remains, even though it's no longer based on religious grounds.
Fuck shelf.
I'm still crying about Bailout Bevin losing to Mitch Macullun,
Fuck Kentucky.
How the fuck can you vote for a big government republican when you know that big government is the problem?
Fuck Kentucky.
:unsure:
What?
I say again , FUCK KENTUCKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111
You have to be a fucking retarf to vote for big gov and high txes.
You know is the fucking end
Quote from: Siege on May 23, 2014, 03:22:17 AM
You have to be a fucking retarf to vote for big gov and high txes.
You know is the fucking end
Well given a choice between "big government advocate who is sane" and "small government advocate who is insane" I'm not surprised people prioritized the sanity issue over the government issue.
Quote from: Siege on May 23, 2014, 03:21:19 AM
I say again , FUCK KENTUCKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111
Ok.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ql7nAkg7Zfw%2FUJ1JBYOZyLI%2FAAAAAAAABCE%2FZjRgddraeuQ%2Fs1600%2F4413_598966474604_6865064_n%255B1%255D.jpg&hash=6b77e2ad7d4a8303781b33caeef04291ed1f8669)
It is such a farce to have radically anti-EU parties run on EU elections. Can the people be (successfully) taken for bigger fools than that? Some aholes spit out popular negative BS and with that they grab the golden egg laid by the very thing they are spitting on. It is a disgrace.
Quote from: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 04:08:44 AM
It is such a farce to have radically anti-EU parties run on EU elections.
Like anti-communist parties running in elections in communist states.
Quote from: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 04:08:44 AM
It is such a farce to have radically anti-EU parties run on EU elections. Can the people be (successfully) taken for bigger fools than that? Some aholes spit out popular negative BS and with that they grab the golden egg laid by the very thing they are spitting on. It is a disgrace.
Well. they could always take the Sinn Fein option, I suppose, in order to please you; but since I've always considered Sinn Fein's attitude to be stupid, pointless and hypocritical I'm not going to say I support that idea.
Seriously, Tamas - where's the difference between anti-European parties running for the European parliament and Irish, Welsh and Scots nationalists running for the British parliament?
Quote from: Agelastus on May 23, 2014, 04:54:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 04:08:44 AM
It is such a farce to have radically anti-EU parties run on EU elections. Can the people be (successfully) taken for bigger fools than that? Some aholes spit out popular negative BS and with that they grab the golden egg laid by the very thing they are spitting on. It is a disgrace.
Well. they could always take the Sinn Fein option, I suppose, in order to please you; but since I've always considered Sinn Fein's attitude to be stupid, pointless and hypocritical I'm not going to say I support that idea.
Seriously, Tamas - where's the difference between anti-European parties running for the European parliament and Irish, Welsh and Scots nationalists running for the British parliament?
I am not saying that makes absolute sense. But sure makes more than the EU Parliament, which has no meaningful power, AND the decision for a country to leave the EU will always come from the country in question. To leave the EU you do not need to be in the EU Parliament. You need the EU Parliament to grab those juicy salaries and cost covering funds.
Quote from: Siege on May 23, 2014, 03:11:10 AM
Fuck shelf.
I'm still crying about Bailout Bevin losing to Mitch Macullun,
Fuck Kentucky.
How the fuck can you vote for a big government republican when you know that big government is the problem?
Fuck Kentucky.
Bevin was a loon who would have lost in the general election. McConnell was the lesser of two evils there.
Quote from: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 04:08:44 AM
It is such a farce to have radically anti-EU parties run on EU elections. Can the people be (successfully) taken for bigger fools than that? Some aholes spit out popular negative BS and with that they grab the golden egg laid by the very thing they are spitting on. It is a disgrace.
It always did seem weird to me. But I think some of the anti-EU types have legitimate grievances. I know it makes sense to some of you Euro types, but the idea of having an additional, unnecessary layer of government just baffles me.
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 08:47:19 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 04:08:44 AM
It is such a farce to have radically anti-EU parties run on EU elections. Can the people be (successfully) taken for bigger fools than that? Some aholes spit out popular negative BS and with that they grab the golden egg laid by the very thing they are spitting on. It is a disgrace.
It always did seem weird to me. But I think some of the anti-EU types have legitimate grievances. I know it makes sense to some of you Euro types, but the idea of having an additional, unnecessary layer of government just baffles me.
Think of it has the akin to the US Federal government.
Quote from: Siege on May 23, 2014, 03:21:19 AM
I say again , FUCK KENTUCKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111
Wander in certain counties and Kentucky will fuck you.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2014, 08:49:28 AM
Think of it has the akin to the US Federal government.
<loads shotgun> :mad:
Watch out, the Feds are going to take it away.
Really damning soundbite by the UKIP, trying to explain their poor results in London. Link thats to Mr. Warspite:
QuoteUkip blames London election performance on difficulty appealing to the 'educated and cultured'
While Nigel Farage is busy claiming "the Ukip fox is in the Westminster hen-house", party spokesperson Suzanne Evans has uttered a sound bite UKIP would probably rather forget.
Asked to explain the party's relatively poor performance in London on Radio 4, Evans said they had difficulty appealing to the "educated, cultured and young."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-blames-london-election-performance-on-difficulty-appealing-to-the-educated-and-cultured-9423200.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-blames-london-election-performance-on-difficulty-appealing-to-the-educated-and-cultured-9423200.html)
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 09:33:08 AM
Really damning soundbite by the UKIP, trying to explain their poor results in London. Link thats to Mr. Warspite:
QuoteUkip blames London election performance on difficulty appealing to the 'educated and cultured'
While Nigel Farage is busy claiming "the Ukip fox is in the Westminster hen-house", party spokesperson Suzanne Evans has uttered a sound bite UKIP would probably rather forget.
Asked to explain the party's relatively poor performance in London on Radio 4, Evans said they had difficulty appealing to the "educated, cultured and young."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-blames-london-election-performance-on-difficulty-appealing-to-the-educated-and-cultured-9423200.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-blames-london-election-performance-on-difficulty-appealing-to-the-educated-and-cultured-9423200.html)
No worries, the northerners are too thick to understand that this is a slight against them ey wot old boy pip pip.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2014, 09:30:31 AM
Watch out, the Feds are going to take it away.
They better keep their damned hands off ma' cattle <_<
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 08:47:19 AM
It always did seem weird to me. But I think some of the anti-EU types have legitimate grievances. I know it makes sense to some of you Euro types, but the idea of having an additional, unnecessary layer of government just baffles me.
Unnecessary? Have you seen the size of a lot of those Euro countries?
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 09:33:08 AM
Really damning soundbite by the UKIP, trying to explain their poor results in London. Link thats to Mr. Warspite:
Because outside of London they are proud to be barbarous ignoramuses.
Quote from: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 04:08:44 AM
It is such a farce to have radically anti-EU parties run on EU elections. Can the people be (successfully) taken for bigger fools than that? Some aholes spit out popular negative BS and with that they grab the golden egg laid by the very thing they are spitting on. It is a disgrace.
How is it a disgrace?
UKIP are quite honest about the fact they claim all the allowances etc that they can to fund their party, but they're turkeys voting for Christmas because they want to get rid of them all. That's not taking the people for fools, that's being honest, no?
QuoteI am not saying that makes absolute sense. But sure makes more than the EU Parliament, which has no meaningful power, AND the decision for a country to leave the EU will always come from the country in question. To leave the EU you do not need to be in the EU Parliament. You need the EU Parliament to grab those juicy salaries and cost covering funds.
Until recently UKIP were only interested in European and general elections. Because they were only about Europe. Now they're becoming bigger and styling themselves on the Lib Dems they want to win councillors and then MPs, while Europe's just an added bonus - that does help cover the costs of national campaigns.
QuoteReally damning soundbite by the UKIP, trying to explain their poor results in London. Link thats to Mr. Warspite:
:lol:
I do worry that I don't know a single UKIP voter and the world I live in is one where it's a given that they're racist. People enjoy the sneering articles and Radio 4 jokes and Twitter hashtags - but that's actually all rather distant from lots of people in the country. It makes me worry, again, that we're heading for US style culture wars :bleeding:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2014, 10:56:16 AM
It makes me worry, again, that we're heading for US style culture wars :bleeding:
Yeah, enjoy that. Lots of fun :mellow:
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 08:47:19 AM
It always did seem weird to me. But I think some of the anti-EU types have legitimate grievances. I know it makes sense to some of you Euro types, but the idea of having an additional, unnecessary layer of government just baffles me.
What should be much more baffling to an American is the persistent regionalism and nationalism in Europe. Just imagine you wouldn't have a federal military but only state militias. No FBI, no FCC, no SEC, no other federal agencies, but every state having his own without a federal layer.
Oh also Lib Dems have been wiped out in Manchester and Liverpool. They seem to be holding onto their vote a lot better in bits of the South and South-West but look in real trouble in London and the North.
Here's the popular vote in the North:
Labour: 39%
Conservatives: 19%
Ukip: 18%
Lib Dems: 13%
And the South:
Conservatives: 32%
Labour: 25%
Ukip: 17%
Lib Dems: 17%
The Revolt on the Right authors must be very smug. We really need to change our image of UKIP as retired colonels, golfing buddies and shire Tories. What's interesting is UKIP have shown they can harm both parties - for example they did it to the Tories in Basildon and Castle Point and to Labour in Rotherham and Grimsby. Even in London apparently the Labour victory in Croydon is because UKIP ate into the Tory vote.
I think this is an interesting graph, from the Telegraph on the long-term fall of two-party politics:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F05%2FVote-shares-graph-1.jpg&hash=80db3ac50fb2da9e00ae5f6c176d050895d4362b)
I think there's a lot to this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/23/ukip-success-local-elections-two-party-system-crisis
QuoteOver the past week or so – in the wake of Nigel Farage's supposedly disastrous LBC interview and as politicians and pundits queued up to accuse his party of being racist – something interesting began to emerge. It was almost as unpleasant as some of the views of the Ukip leader and the out-there candidates who were crash-landing in the news – a collective outbreak of sneering, which started to transcend the party itself and blur into a generalised mockery of anyone minded to support it. You could see it most clearly in the rash of satirical(ish) #WhyImVotingUkip tweets that are piling up even now (eg "Because our true British maypoles are set to be completely replaced by foreign gay Poles within 5 years" or "Because I'm uneducated,uncultured, white and old") and it's not pretty: an apparent belief that to vote UKIP is to be an idiot of some description, either bigoted or duped, and worthy of little more than contempt.
If you remain of that opinion, you should stop reading and go somewhere else. As the local election results come in and Ukip's numbers continue to look remarkable, the rest of us should maybe pause for thought and realise that something rather sobering is afoot, as happened in the 2012 county council elections, only more so. If a party is averaging 47% of the vote in a Labour stronghold such as Rotherham, toppling Tories from their perches in crucial Conservative territory and apparently heading towards first place in the European contest, something important is obviously afoot. Moreover, if people are supporting Ukip in such large numbers – even after the media's massed guns have been rattling at it for weeks – it is probably time to drop all the sneering and think about why.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2014, 10:56:16 AMI do worry that I don't know a single UKIP voter and the world I live in is one where it's a given that they're racist. People enjoy the sneering articles and Radio 4 jokes and Twitter hashtags - but that's actually all rather distant from lots of people in the country. It makes me worry, again, that we're heading for US style culture wars :bleeding:
:hmm:
I voted UKIP this time (albeit I won't in the General Election) and we have met once, in person. Am I really the closest you've come to knowing a UKIP voter?
Yep.
Edit: Also, independence for London!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100272847/at-this-rate-london-will-have-to-vote-for-independence-to-get-away-from-all-those-ukippers/
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2014, 11:06:50 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 08:47:19 AM
It always did seem weird to me. But I think some of the anti-EU types have legitimate grievances. I know it makes sense to some of you Euro types, but the idea of having an additional, unnecessary layer of government just baffles me.
What should be much more baffling to an American is the persistent regionalism and nationalism in Europe. Just imagine you wouldn't have a federal military but only state militias. No FBI, no FCC, no SEC, no other federal agencies, but every state having his own without a federal layer.
If the states were in fact individual countries speaking different languages, it wouldn't feel that weird at all.
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 11:22:28 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2014, 11:06:50 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 08:47:19 AM
It always did seem weird to me. But I think some of the anti-EU types have legitimate grievances. I know it makes sense to some of you Euro types, but the idea of having an additional, unnecessary layer of government just baffles me.
What should be much more baffling to an American is the persistent regionalism and nationalism in Europe. Just imagine you wouldn't have a federal military but only state militias. No FBI, no FCC, no SEC, no other federal agencies, but every state having his own without a federal layer.
If the states were in fact individual countries speaking different languages, it wouldn't feel that weird at all.
Exactly. Our states didn't have a very long history of independence and differing customs. Made it relatively easier to coalesce.
@UKIP comment: :lmfao: thumbs up for being honest lady, and admitting that you and your party are fully aware of being the party of the xenophobic, the uneducated, and the old.
@Sheilhbh kulturkampf bit: it reminded me: if you think about it, globalism and the Internet (although these two are really very closely connected) has been creating this kind of uniform big city culture. I think if you take the open-to-the-world youth of Budapest and London, or any other two major European cities, you will find much less difference between them than, say, 20 or 10 years ago. Sure there are still important differences, but these people want the same kind of lifestyle and are generally the most accepting of their countrymen on account of being exposed to a lot of international stuff. And since they want the same thing, and have access to the same products, services (mostly), and culture thanks to the Internet, they are getting drawn to be more resembling each other instead of the more "rural" parts of their own countries, which are for various reasons are either much slower in being converted to this unified global (well, first world) culture, or are shunned from it altogether.
Tamas, I don't know if you're aware of it but that's a rather Marxist (or should I say Troskyist?) analysis. :P
The vote's not been announced but it looks like Lutfur Rahman won re-election :bleeding:
So, onto the Euros! :w00t:
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 11:45:55 AM
Tamas, I don't know if you're aware of it but that's a rather Marxist (or should I say Troskyist?) analysis. :P
Aww shit, Tamas has joined the vanguard.
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 11:45:55 AM
Tamas, I don't know if you're aware of it but that's a rather Marxist (or should I say Troskyist?) analysis. :P
Aww shit, Tamas has joined the vanguard.
It hardly means that he's a Marxist, he has only made an analysis in a similar vein, that people have more in common with others in the same class and situation in other countries than with a countryman from a completely different background. Marx meant proletarians all over the world had more in common with each other than with their respective countries' bourgouisie, Tamas just applied that to urban educated youth instead.
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 11:45:55 AM
Tamas, I don't know if you're aware of it but that's a rather Marxist (or should I say Troskyist?) analysis. :P
Aww shit, Tamas has joined the vanguard.
It hardly means that he's a Marxist, he has only made an analysis in a similar vein, that people have more in common with others in the same class and situation in other countries than with a countryman from a completely different background. Marx meant proletarians all over the world had more in common with each other than with their respective countries' bourgouisie, Tamas just applied that to urban educated youth instead.
I don't see how that is Marxist. And by that analysis, he was totally wrong. The proletariat is the one who carries on the national identities, as by the very nature of their situation they are less exposed to the "urban educated middle class" culture that for me seems to be unifying via globalism and the Internet.
This may end around here and never go much beyond how international cultural trends spread among the elites, with the only difference being that thanks to the relative well being of people and the Internet, the cultural "elite" (ie. with big access to international cultural channels) is bigger than ever.
I think in a Marxist analysis the peasantry carry national traditions/identities. So even if they're organised they often end up as a counter-revolutionary/reactionary force in defence of the Church or a mythic golden age of just landlords and an ordered society.
The urban proletariat are different from that rural one.
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 11:45:55 AM
Tamas, I don't know if you're aware of it but that's a rather Marxist (or should I say Troskyist?) analysis. :P
Aww shit, Tamas has joined the vanguard.
It hardly means that he's a Marxist, he has only made an analysis in a similar vein, that people have more in common with others in the same class and situation in other countries than with a countryman from a completely different background. Marx meant proletarians all over the world had more in common with each other than with their respective countries' bourgouisie, Tamas just applied that to urban educated youth instead.
Soy chistoso :blurgh:
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 12:25:33 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2014, 11:45:55 AM
Tamas, I don't know if you're aware of it but that's a rather Marxist (or should I say Troskyist?) analysis. :P
Aww shit, Tamas has joined the vanguard.
It hardly means that he's a Marxist, he has only made an analysis in a similar vein, that people have more in common with others in the same class and situation in other countries than with a countryman from a completely different background. Marx meant proletarians all over the world had more in common with each other than with their respective countries' bourgouisie, Tamas just applied that to urban educated youth instead.
Soy chistoso :blurgh:
Pero no tan gracioso como piensas. :P
Besides, I needed a lengthier explanation. :lol:
Quote from: Siege on May 23, 2014, 03:11:10 AM
Fuck shelf.
I'm still crying about Bailout Bevin losing to Mitch Macullun,
Fuck Kentucky.
How the fuck can you vote for a big government republican when you know that big government is the problem?
Fuck Kentucky.
The Tea Party is finally being put down. It was a rabid dog and tried to bite the hand that fed it. This is how you deal with rabid dogs. McConnell can hardly be called a "big government", and besides you work for the government. If someone who was genuinely serious about reducing the size of government and spending they'd fire you.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 23, 2014, 12:55:28 PM
The Tea Party is finally being put down. It was a rabid dog and tried to bite the hand that fed it.
It left its mark, though. Pretty successful as far as protest movements go.
QuoteThis is how you deal with rabid dogs.
:lol: Easy there, tiger.
QuoteMcConnell can hardly be called a "big government", and besides you work for the government. If someone who was genuinely serious about reducing the size of government and spending they'd fire you.
McConnell changed his tune recently but in the past he's been a big spender, like many of the other old establishment GOP senators.
Two interesting features from the local elections in Northern Ireland.
1 - UKIP won a couple of councillors. It's odd because for the most party Northern Ireland still mainly has Northern Irish parties which deal with their political situation but are pretty detached from the UK. The Tories tried (and catastrophically failed) to establish themselves in Northern Ireland in 2010. Their theory was that now there's peace it'd be good to try and 'normalise' Northern Irish politics. It didn't work. It'd be funny, ironic and good if UKIP sort-of managed that :lol:
2 - On the other hand dissident Republicans who are anti-peace process and opposed to Sinn Fein as too moderate have won a few seats in working class Catholic areas. Which is a bit depressing and a sign that the extremists still have a base and some support :(
Edit: Also a couple of dissident Unionists :(
On the upside it looks like the non-sectarian Alliance party's vote held up :)
Quote from: derspiess on May 23, 2014, 02:21:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 23, 2014, 12:55:28 PM
The Tea Party is finally being put down. It was a rabid dog and tried to bite the hand that fed it.
It left its mark, though. Pretty successful as far as protest movements go.
QuoteThis is how you deal with rabid dogs.
:lol: Easy there, tiger.
QuoteMcConnell can hardly be called a "big government", and besides you work for the government. If someone who was genuinely serious about reducing the size of government and spending they'd fire you.
McConnell changed his tune recently but in the past he's been a big spender, like many of the other old establishment GOP senators.
Did it really leave it's mark? It failed to keep Obama from being reelected. If we consider McConnell a big spender then we must consider the whole of the GOP as a big spender party, and their claims that they for "fiscal responsibility" a lie to dazzle rubes. I'm okay with that, are you?
I read this piece on the disconnection of London and the rest of the country by Charles Moore, journalist and Thatcher's biographer. He's a Tory Eurosceptic, so not UKIP, but I thought it striking how Tamasian his argument is. Albeit the opposite of Tamas's actual view:
QuoteLocal elections: The capital fails to see the heartache and pain beyond
'London' has become shorthand for faraway people with no grasp of the nation's problems
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02920%2Fukip_2920801b.jpg&hash=10941c9cef5907dde95f5eb51fbe5d6228257d4e)
Ukip leader Nigel Farage celebrates with local councillors in South Ockenden Photo: Getty Images
By Charles Moore8:30PM BST 23 May 2014 Comments1253 Comments
"These results show London as an open, tolerant and diverse city," tweeted Tessa Jowell. Dame Tessa, Labour MP for Dulwich and West Norwood, Minister for the Olympics under the last Labour government, is a liked and respected figure. Nevertheless, her tweet could have been precisely calculated to turn the stomach of anyone living more than 10 miles from Hyde Park Corner.
London, in her implication, is an open, tolerant and diverse city because so few of its voters went for Ukip in Thursday's local elections, whereas so many did so in the rest of England. Not only is she saying how wonderful London is: she is also saying how frightful the rest of the English are. Unintentionally, she expressed the metropolitan sense of moral superiority of which the electorate has now had more than enough.
The same point was put the other way round yesterday by Suzanne Evans, one of the articulate and seemingly sane spokesmen whom Ukip is at last managing to rustle up. The difference in the results, she said, was "because London is its own person – its own body, its own character – and it's very different for the rest of the country". She thought that London finds it hard to understand "the heartache and the pain" beyond.
Actually, this "London" of which they were speaking is mainly inner/middle London. The suburban bits – Havering, Bexley, the sort of places where Dame Tessa never goes to dinner – have moved towards Ukip like most other parts of England, and share their anxieties. It is surely no coincidence that Nigel Farage lives (and voted) at Cudham in Kent, just where the Greater London limits lie.
One reason Tessa Jowell and co can feel open, diverse and tolerant is that, like Harry Enfield's character, they are "considerably richer than yow". The average house price in London is now reported to be £593,763. This is well over 20 times more than the average wage (£26,000). It is highly unwise to borrow more than four times your annual earnings to buy property, so no new family paying the standard rate of income tax can remotely afford to join the property-owning democracy and live in Jowell's London unless they have private capital of their own.
On a day trip from Gillingham or Southend (which could easily cost them about £200 for four unless they take a packed lunch), these frustrated citizens can wander the silent and shuttered streets of Belgravia and Holland Park and admire the empty palaces where Russians or Arabs park their money but not their children. Such an average family would not be human if it did not sometimes ask itself how much all this openness, diversity and tolerance do for it. Hence the rise of Ukip.
If London is, in Suzanne Evans's phrase, its own body, it has a very rich head. As well as the numerous multi-millionaires from the financial services, many of whom are not British citizens and therefore cannot vote, the head consists of top lawyers, media and advertising executives, lobbyists, civil servants and those industries and quangos that prosper from government contracts. It also consists of those who formally rule us. If you look at the present Cabinet, I can find only two English members – Patrick McLoughlin (a former Derbyshire miner) and Owen Paterson (a former Merseyside leather manufacturer) – with private-sector careers pursued completely out of London.
This head forms a collective view without even realising it. By polling day, BBC producers had sent out so many anti-Ukip tweets and emails that the corporation's newsroom was forced to issue a belated instruction telling them not to. Their unthinking hostility was perfect propaganda for Mr Farage.
That is the head of the London body. Its hands, however, are often those of immigrants, many of whom serve – as nannies, cleaners, drivers, doormen and waiters – those at the head. Most of these probably can't or won't vote, but those who do tend not to share the resentments of the wider population because they feel happier to be here than in, say, Somalia. They tend to live in public or rented housing, often subsidised, rather than trying to buy.
They may also be corralled into the divisive ethno-religious politics of the modern inner city. In Thursday's elections, to take a preposterous example, a group of Muslim councillors in Newham, who had defected from Respect, were permitted to campaign for an Islamic state under the banner of the Conservatives. But for the most part, the immigrant vote is Labour's. It is almost a deference vote: people like Dame Tessa are the benevolent feudal lords giving handouts to the ethnic serfs. It is easy to be "tolerant" of people whose presence reinforces your economic advantage rather than challenging it.
Yesterday I heard a BBC reporter, in a comical but telling slip of the tongue, describing London as "ethically diverse". This is true. A strange coalition, first forged by Ken Livingstone, somehow knits together gay-rights activists with Islamist fanatics who want homosexuals thrown off cliffs, the more right-on sort of cosmopolitan entrepreneur with the most bloody-minded public-sector trade unionist. As long ago as 2010, Labour's national membership was revealed to be more than a fifth drawn from London (though London is only 12.5 per cent of the national population), with five times as many members in Hampstead as in Hartlepool. This trend has strengthened, and Ukip's incursions into Labour's northern territory on Thursday are a reaction against it. Ed Miliband sits for a seat in Doncaster (where Labour just lost two council seats), but his heart, and his house, are in Primrose Hill.
It is true that Ukip supporters are very concerned about immigration, but for the most part their animus is not against immigrants themselves, but against this occupying army of the powerful in central London. In particular, voters have come to see all the three main parties as no more than different brigades in the same force. When David Cameron made his Conservatives go big for single-sex marriage, for instance, lots of people from out of town were outraged, but even greater numbers were simply perplexed. Was this the issue that mattered for the life of a nation in hard times? That view was shared by more than half the population, but none of the three established parties expressed it.
Another example is petrol prices. Large numbers of Londoners do not drive and so give little thought to the cost at the pumps. Outside big city centres, however, the car is a virtual necessity for work and family. It took the reaction to the "omnishambles" Budget of 2012 to get the Coalition to see that this might be a more salient political issue than leading the world in carbon reduction. Even today, public figures play with wind turbines on our utility bills as gaily as Marie-Antoinette pretending to run a peasant dairy in the gardens of Versailles. They seem puzzled at the hostility this generates.
This separation between capital and country is a fairly new thing for Britain, and a dangerous one. Hitler is said to have been envious of the British phrase "the Home Counties" because it showed that we regarded London as our heart. Today, the word "London" in political rhetoric has become rather like "Washington" in America – shorthand for faraway people who do not understand the rest of the nation. Link it with "Brussels" – as Ukip unhesitatingly does, and will again as the Euro-results come in – and you have a place apart from its hinterland. That is not a clever idea in a parliamentary democracy.
I love that slip of the tongue that is very true. London is ethically diverse. See Ukraine :bleeding: :weep:
Also I've seen a lot of Labourites sort-of pushing the Tessa Jowell line (in general I yield to no-one in my love for Tessa Jowell, but she's wrong on this) that they won London and London's the 'future'. I'm not sure that's the best line for a party trying to win a majority of seats from the 85% of the population who either can't afford or don't want to live in London :lol:
Tomorrow Euro-results :w00t:
I voted. Think it's the first time I voted in shorts weather. There were only two parties out of eight that didn't run on a platform of less Romanians, less EU and more money for us, us, us, so I picked one of them.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 22, 2014, 05:28:44 PM
First results so I've always wondered, Tyr, do you know why Sunderland is always the first to report? Is it like a badge of local pride or something?
Even when they cut to Sunderland South during a general election there's always council workers running with the ballot boxes to get counting :lol:
Those two first results are very good for UKIP and seems to tally with the theory that they could do well in traditional Labour areas of the North. Safe Labour areas of Sunderland - LAB - 47.8% UKIP - 30.1% CON - 14.3% GRN - 4.8% LDEM - 3.1% and no percentages but in St. Anne's 1022 votes for Labour, UKIP second with 702.
Edit: I just read an article. Apparently Sunderland use lighter ballot papers and rope in sixth formers to run in the boxes during a general election. All to count the quickest. Why? :blink: :lol:
Yeah, I've no idea how or why it started, but they always want to be first. I guess its a way to put the city's name on the map. Sunderland council bosses tend to be a bit self conscious about their 'new city' status and Newcastle's shadow looms large.
Quote1 - UKIP won a couple of councillors. It's odd because for the most party Northern Ireland still mainly has Northern Irish parties which deal with their political situation but are pretty detached from the UK. The Tories tried (and catastrophically failed) to establish themselves in Northern Ireland in 2010. Their theory was that now there's peace it'd be good to try and 'normalise' Northern Irish politics. It didn't work. It'd be funny, ironic and good if UKIP sort-of managed that :lol:
That is interesting.
It seems the Voteman cartoon might have been successful even if it was retired early, officials estimate we get around 60% participation which is highest after the vote-or-you-break-the-law countries.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10829678/Denmarks-voteman-cartoon-pulled-Oral-sex-extreme-violence-and-dolphins-just-too-damaging.html
There's a few exit polls in the Euros coming up.
One interesting point is it seems that turnouts up in some countries (France, Germany, Spain) that are basically Old Europe, but continuing to plummet in New Europe. It's a bit strange really :mellow:
Edit: But this could be the first European Parliament election in history with higher turnout than the previous one.
They're already going mental on the news channels. Shouting politicians, 3D projections of Europe, explanations of what a patent actually is (we're voting on the unitary EU patent), promise of upcoming exit polls, fear Le Pen, overexcited anchors, etc.
In other words: ELECTION NIGHT! :w00t:
EXIT POLL: WOOO! The Socialists surprises with 11.9%. Of course, so does the right wing nationalists with 23.1%. Most importantly thought, the liberals are getting their arses kicked.
I voted a few days in advance via mail. I had one vote for the European Parliament, one vote for the regional council. And 60 votes for the municipal council and you could give those 60 votes to various parties and up to three to one person. WTF. Who comes up with such a silly system?
Been watching results from a nearby pub where everyone is drinking radler and watching the tv. I can't catch much, but what I saw so far was black, red, blue, green, other blue, pink, grey. In that order. :)
So, SYRIZA topped the poll in Greece and it looks like Golden Dawn are third with 10-12%. Also FN in France and the People's Party in Denmark. I think the Freedom Party did very well in Austria too and it looks like the more sensible German Eurosceptics won around 6-7%.
What's also striking is the rise of the (often Eurosceptic) far-left at the expense of the centre left. In the Netherlands the Socialists overtook Labour for the first time ever, SYRIZA obviously did well, but a few other countries like Denmark seem to have the left doing decently well.
Iberians! Why's there not been any populist response in Spain and Portugal? Other crisis countries have thrown out long-governing parties (Greece, Ireland) or turned to new ones (Greece, Italy) and non-crisis European countries in general have seen a rise of left and right populists. Why hasn't that happened in Spain and Portugal?
Generally the picture basically looks like the centre cannot hold. Turnout's up minutely. One weird thing is how low turnout is in Central and Eastern Europe which according to the polls tends to be the most pro-European:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Fea4bd182bb87f678579368743576b00d%2Ftumblr_inline_n65c3bLyjt1sebpn1.jpg&hash=608ed8f438592b0b33c49904fab9dcdd034314d7)
Edit: Oh and Sinn Fein's leading the polls in Ireland :bleeding:
Edit: Incidentally I hope our European friends start looking at these other countries rather than moaning about UKIP. Compared to this lot Nigel Farage's Mary Poppins.
I'm rooting for SYRIZA to win national elections in Greece.
The current projection of the Parliament in total has the largest group (EPP - the Christian Democrats/centre right) holding 27.5% of seats. That's the largest group :bleeding:
Edit: Incidentally I liked this analysis and map from Channel 4's Paul Mason (a genuine Trot - so a real Tamasian Marxist analysis :lol:)
http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/culture-war-crisis-mainstream-politics/831
What's a trot?
And do you agree with Tamasian views? What about Marxist ones? :P
Quote from: Tamas on May 25, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
What's a trot?
Trotskyite.
I think there's a lot to Mason and Moore's opinions, yeah.
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
Meanwhile in Fascist Hungary Fidesz are apparently winning over 50% and Jobbik are second on around 15% :bleeding:
Edit: Also I'm going to spend a lot of time tonight baffled at how Britain's PR system works here :(
Edit:
QuoteI'm rooting for SYRIZA to win national elections in Greece.
You may get your wish. They've pointed out that in a national election they'd have 130 seats and the government under 70. Says they've no legitimacy to negotiate debt relief or new packages and are calling for a new election :mmm:
Again Greece may again have absurdly outsized influence.
Interestingly UKIP are doing well in early Welsh areas - at the expense of Plaid Cymru, the Welsh nationalists. Also found out this week that SNP supporters are more Eurosceptic than Tories :o
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 03:28:21 PM
Iberians! Why's there not been any populist response in Spain and Portugal? Other crisis countries have thrown out long-governing parties (Greece, Ireland) or turned to new ones (Greece, Italy) and non-crisis European countries in general have seen a rise of left and right populists. Why hasn't that happened in Spain and Portugal?
I don't know about Portugal, but Spain is pretty much a two-party country.
Our electoral districts are the provinces and - out of major cities and the coast - only a handful of seats (between 3-5) are in play at each one. That puts third parties at an extreme disadvantage unless they can focus on a particular place (like Catalan/Basque/Galician nationalists).
Sweden voted retarded as always. Communists, environuts, racists and feminazis.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:19:14 PM
Meanwhile in Fascist Hungary Fidesz are apparently winning over 50% and Jobbik are second on around 15% :bleeding:
Edit: Also I'm going to spend a lot of time tonight baffled at how Britain's PR system works here :(
I'm just replying on your for this evenings coverage, as I can't be arsed with Dimbleby and his talking heads.
26.7% for the Danish People's Party and clearly the largest party. Their front man M. Messerschmidt said he'd seek to work with the British conservatives, maybe UKIP but definitely not FN who he basically called idiot anti-semites.
Quote from: Iormlund on May 25, 2014, 04:21:40 PMI don't know about Portugal, but Spain is pretty much a two-party country.
Our electoral districts are the provinces and - out of major cities and the coast - only a handful of seats (between 3-5) are in play at each one. That puts third parties at an extreme disadvantage unless they can focus on a particular place (like Catalan/Basque/Galician nationalists).
The regional aspect makes sense, but then hasn't the recession hit areas like Andalucia hardest? What's the voting system? Or party funding?
Other countries are two-party. I mean Ireland, Italy and (to an extent) Greece all match that. It seems strange that the PSOE and PP vote has broadly held up.
Quote from: Liep on May 25, 2014, 04:27:43 PM
26.7% for the Danish People's Party and clearly the largest party. Their front man M. Messerschmidt said he'd seek to work with the British conservatives, maybe UKIP but definitely not FN who he basically called idiot anti-semites.
Yep. UKIP have throughout said they won't work with FN (though they may admire Marine Le Pen) because they're racist and anti-semitic. The UKIP spokesman was just on saying exactly that and that the media linking UKIP to parties like that says more about them than UKIP.
Mr. Messerschmidt's quite handsome isn't he? And our populists are Alex Salmond and Nigel Farage :weep: :P
Messerschmidt doesn't sound very French. :hmm:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 03:28:21 PMIberians! Why's there not been any populist response in Spain and Portugal? Other crisis countries have thrown out long-governing parties (Greece, Ireland) or turned to new ones (Greece, Italy) and non-crisis European countries in general have seen a rise of left and right populists. Why hasn't that happened in Spain and Portugal?
Because we (Spain, and I guess that it'll be similar in Portugal) are, on practical terms, a two party system with a number of secondary characters around. This system is at its historical lowest at this moment and PPSOE still get the most votes by far.
Edit: Apparently a protest party set up a few months before the elections by a leftie TV pundit/professor, with ponytail and everything, is getting 5 MPs. :bleeding:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
That's Flanby for you! Trying to play the FN to weaken the right-wing backfired this time again.
Quote from: The Brain on May 25, 2014, 04:32:25 PM
Messerschmidt doesn't sound very French. :hmm:
Alsatian or Mosellan :secret:
2 out of the 13 of the new Danish MEPs are pro-EU, maybe only 1 as it's quite close right now. The safe one is a socialists.
Quote from: The Larch on May 25, 2014, 04:34:44 PM
Because we (Spain, and I guess that it'll be similar in Portugal) are, on practical terms, a two party system with a number of secondary characters around. This system is at its historical lowest at this moment and PPSOE still get the most votes by far.
But other countries have that. Ireland and Italy historically split around 70-80% of the vote between two parties (or coalitions). In the last elections they had that went down to around 50%. I suppose I'm a little baffled how in Spain the two parties have held up so well. It's tough to imagine a party with deeper roots than Fianna Fail, but are they maybe more important institutions?
QuoteEdit: Apparently a protest party set up a few months before the elections by a leftie TV pundit/professor, with ponytail and everything, is getting 5 MPs. :bleeding:
Well that's a start :P
QuoteThat's Flanby for you! Trying to play the FN to weaken the right-wing backfired this time again.
It's a European trend though. Hollande's just an accelerant, like pouring petrol on a house fire :P
So what's up with the NDP in Germany? :unsure:
Also, 0.1% bigger turnout for Europe. :w00t:
Several countries have disputed the European Parliament's claim that the largest party's candidate must become the next Commission President. But the Parliament groups keep on saying it anyway - personally I think it's laughable when the biggest party has a total of 28% seats :lol:
Anyway Juncker the candidate of that group has said he feels 'entitled' to the Presidency. He was asked how he'd help UK business (by a UK journalist) replied 'I'm not a businessman', the journo 'but I am'. Juncker replied 'I won the election' and that future questions would only be in French or German. It's extraordinary that we're seeing Eurosceptic populism in the face of such charm :lol:
Quote from: Liep on May 25, 2014, 04:42:30 PM
So what's up with the NDP in Germany? :unsure:
I think the Court ruled that the 5% minimum was unconstitutional, so there's none for this election. From what I've read because of this Pirates, NDP, animal rights activists and others are likely to win EP seats.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 03:28:21 PM
Iberians! Why's there not been any populist response in Spain and Portugal? Other crisis countries have thrown out long-governing parties (Greece, Ireland) or turned to new ones (Greece, Italy) and non-crisis European countries in general have seen a rise of left and right populists. Why hasn't that happened in Spain and Portugal?
Portugal is more of 2.5 party system when the right-wing (CDS-PP) is in good shape.
Well the Portuguese voted for the socialists, and the Stalinists, sorry communists, are a bit higher than last time (12%). The centre-right and right is on decline. The results for the Portuguese abroad are not yet known. Usually, it helps the centre-right since the socialists try to restrict their vote. Thing is, they don't vote that much though, I was like the only voter at the Consulate with many civil servants on voting day waiting for electors to show up.
As a right-wing journo just posted on Twitter, UKIP celebrating their victory (it looks like they'll come first and may, may win an upcoming by-election too to get their first MP):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BogyuTQIcAEX4PH.jpg)
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:40:38 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 25, 2014, 04:34:44 PM
Because we (Spain, and I guess that it'll be similar in Portugal) are, on practical terms, a two party system with a number of secondary characters around. This system is at its historical lowest at this moment and PPSOE still get the most votes by far.
But other countries have that. Ireland and Italy historically split around 70-80% of the vote between two parties (or coalitions). In the last elections they had that went down to around 50%. I suppose I'm a little baffled how in Spain the two parties have held up so well. It's tough to imagine a party with deeper roots than Fianna Fail, but are they maybe more important institutions?
PP and PSOE have actually lost a third of their seats each. That been said, in a "regular" election things will probably get back to normal, since the constituency is country-wide for this one and this makes minor parties actually viable.
The Lib Dems are collapsing they're expecting 0-2 MEPs by the end of the night, down from 11. Apparently they only lead in Orkney, Shetland and Gibraltar :lol:
Also interesting UKIP vote higher than Labour in Ed Miliband's constituency :lol:
But that demonstrated how well they're doing in the North eating into Labour's vote.
Edit:
QuotePP and PSOE have actually lost a third of their seats each. That been said, in a "regular" election things will probably get back to normal, since the constituency is country-wide for this one and this makes minor parties actually viable.
In real election or Euros?
The Lib Dems are apparently in 5th behind the Greens nationwide and this is the first time ever the Tories aren't in 1st or 2nd place in an election :mellow:
Edit: Also Scotland may get their first UKIP MEP.
Quote from: Iormlund on May 25, 2014, 04:55:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:40:38 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 25, 2014, 04:34:44 PM
Because we (Spain, and I guess that it'll be similar in Portugal) are, on practical terms, a two party system with a number of secondary characters around. This system is at its historical lowest at this moment and PPSOE still get the most votes by far.
But other countries have that. Ireland and Italy historically split around 70-80% of the vote between two parties (or coalitions). In the last elections they had that went down to around 50%. I suppose I'm a little baffled how in Spain the two parties have held up so well. It's tough to imagine a party with deeper roots than Fianna Fail, but are they maybe more important institutions?
PP and PSOE have actually lost a third of their seats each. That been said, in a "regular" election things will probably get back to normal, since the constituency is country-wide for this one and this makes minor parties actually viable.
PP + PSOE have totalled 49% of the votes. The end of bipartidism!!!!!!!!1111111unounounouno :ph34r:
Well, East Midlands has declared.
2 UKIP
2 Tory
1 Labour
Liberal Democrat kicked out; if I heard the figures correctly they polled less than the Greens.
Only a 33% turnout though; I was hoping for a little higher.
I find it interesting that despite the polls its not UKIP and Labour neck-and-neck but rather Labour and the Tories neck-and-neck with UKIP well ahead. I wonder if that will hold true as more results are released.
If Labour don't open some clear air between themselves and the Tories they'd have to consider it something of a failure, I would think(?)
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 05:27:49 PM
Well, East Midlands has declared.
Ah. That's where that returning officer came from :P
QuoteLiberal Democrat kicked out; if I heard the figures correctly they polled less than the Greens.
True for all three regions so far :o
QuoteI find it interesting that despite the polls its not UKIP and Labour neck-and-neck but rather Labour and the Tories neck-and-neck with UKIP well ahead. I wonder if that will hold true as more results are released.
If Labour don't open some clear air between themselves and the Tories they'd have to consider it something of a failure, I would think(?)
It won't. Scotland, Wales and London are still to declare which will open a gap between Labour and the Tories I imagine.
A genuine tweet from a European commissioner:
Quote#Spitzenkandidaten a game changer: downward voter turnout trend reversed!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bog8CCVIUAEhB1T.jpg)
:lol:
The Spitzenkandidaten are the candidates of the groups in the EP for Commission President.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:30:04 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 05:27:49 PM
Well, East Midlands has declared.
Ah. That's where that returning officer came from :P
God, he was embarrassing... :Embarrass:
Just had Salmond on talking about UKIPs "regressive policies" - isn't reversing four hundred years of history a regressive policy itself? :hmm:
And Yorkshire and the Humber gives UKIP three seats
Liberal Democrats frozen out again.
They're just about to declare the SW results from Poole, one of my local towns and no doubt a future UKIP stronghold.
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 05:35:55 PM
They're just about to declare the SW results from Poole, one of my local towns and no doubt a future UKIP stronghold.
And a former Lib Dem stronghold.
If they've got any hope of coming ahead of the Greens (four in a row behind them now) surely it'll be in the South West :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:29:13 PMWhat's the voting system? Or party funding?
Respectively, rigged and opaque.
Jesus!
Did I just hear the Lib Dems beaten by the Greens in the south-west!
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:37:52 PM
If they've got any hope of coming ahead of the Greens (four in a row behind them now) surely it'll be in the South West :lol:
Nope. Five for five:
QuoteSOUTH WEST:
UKIP: 484,184
Con: 433,151
Lab: 206,124
Green: 166,447
LD: 160,376
What's amazing is the Greens aren't doing that well. Their vote hasn't increased too much. But the Lib Dems are just crashing catastrophically :o
Edit: Also interesting as Bogdanor's pointing out the Lib Dems actually made their campaign about Europe. They were saying 'we're the pro-Europe party' and Clegg debated Farage on TV. It has not worked out :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:37:52 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 05:35:55 PM
They're just about to declare the SW results from Poole, one of my local towns and no doubt a future UKIP stronghold.
And a former Lib Dem stronghold.
If they've got any hope of coming ahead of the Greens (four in a row behind them now) surely it'll be in the South West :lol:
Former seems to be the operative word, Poole North/Mid-Dorset had a very good Lib dem MP, pillar of the community, but I think retirement and boundary changes have helped it along to its now former status.
UKIP second in Wales.
I didn't expect that.
Edit: Which apparently may be ignorance on my part as the MEPs haven't changed. Although it does look like the Tories are taking the most damage share-wise in Wales.
Yellow is nationalists, only the two big cities went left. Scattered blue are farmers or rich ghettos.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bog-JIrCIAAMTab.png)
But Cornwall been liberal homeland since Gladstone. It was one of the Celtic fringes they retreated to in the mid-20th century.
UKIP second in Wales :blink:
You brits, didn't you hold this election like two days ago? And you haven't counted yet?
Quote from: Liep on May 25, 2014, 05:48:20 PM
Yellow is nationalists, only the two big cities went left. Scattered blue are farmers or rich ghettos.
What's beige in the south-east there?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:49:15 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 25, 2014, 05:48:20 PM
Yellow is nationalists, only the two big cities went left. Scattered blue are farmers or rich ghettos.
What's beige in the south-east there?
Not counted fully yet, but leaning nationalists.
EDIT: And the island of Bornholm went left as well as it's front candidate's constituency.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 03:28:21 PM
In the Netherlands the Socialists overtook Labour for the first time ever
The Socialists did get slightly more votes, but less seats because Labour joined with the Greens.
Quote from: celedhring on May 25, 2014, 05:48:48 PM
You brits, didn't you hold this election like two days ago? And you haven't counted yet?
Yeah. We always vote on Thursday but Europe votes on Sunday. So we don't count (or have exit polls) until the rest of Europe has voted because the results could get out and could influence the vote elsewhere in Europe.
Quote from: celedhring on May 25, 2014, 05:48:48 PM
You brits, didn't you hold this election like two days ago? And you haven't counted yet?
Not allowed to give the results until the voting has ended in Europe.
I don't think we're even allowed to start counting.
About a third of Europe votes ahead of Sunday but everything has to be released at the same time.
Seems kind of depressing across Europe.
It is really high time they start realising the EU is on a wrong track when the only people bothering to go to the EU election are the ones who don't really want an EU to begin with.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:50:30 PM
Yeah. We always vote on Thursday but Europe votes on Sunday. So we don't count (or have exit polls) until the rest of Europe has voted because the results could get out and could influence the vote elsewhere in Europe.
:whistle:
Quote from: Maladict on May 25, 2014, 05:51:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:50:30 PM
Yeah. We always vote on Thursday but Europe votes on Sunday. So we don't count (or have exit polls) until the rest of Europe has voted because the results could get out and could influence the vote elsewhere in Europe.
:whistle:
:lol:
What was that? From what I read it was like the Dutch can't print election results but had to give them verbally if asked :lol:
QuoteIt is really high time they start realising the EU is on a wrong track when the only people bothering to go to the EU election are the ones who don't really want an EU to begin with.
And if you oppose those forces I think it's time to stop sneering and laughing and actually come up with a popular European vision that people might want to support.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:54:09 PM
Quote from: Maladict on May 25, 2014, 05:51:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:50:30 PM
Yeah. We always vote on Thursday but Europe votes on Sunday. So we don't count (or have exit polls) until the rest of Europe has voted because the results could get out and could influence the vote elsewhere in Europe.
:whistle:
:lol:
What was that? From what I read it was like the Dutch can't print election results but had to give them verbally if asked :lol:
QuoteIt is really high time they start realising the EU is on a wrong track when the only people bothering to go to the EU election are the ones who don't really want an EU to begin with.
And if you oppose those forces I think it's time to stop sneering and laughing and actually come up with a popular European vision that people might want to support.
Yeah. What is that though. I am all for a United States of Europe, but don't think it would be the best of ideas with this huge bureaucratic overhead.
Nationally seems like a bit of a Labour resurgence, all be it from last time's low base
Liam Fox saying that he wants us to stay in Europe as an "economic Europe and not a political Europe" which is what he feels the British public voted for and gave the mandate for back in the 1970s.
Which to be honest is something many in my family would agree with (since that is how they remember the way the campaigning for that vote was phrased); perhaps even myself since sovereignty's always been my biggest issue.
Quote from: Tamas on May 25, 2014, 05:56:28 PM
Yeah. What is that though. I am all for a United States of Europe, but don't think it would be the best of ideas with this huge bureaucratic overhead.
I don't know. I'm 50-50 on whether to stay in at all. Personally I'd say they need to start with a new economic policy. They won't.
Edit: Incidentally Tamas I was just reading an article with this famous Thatcher quote 'we have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them reimposed at a European level, with a European superstate exercising a new dominance from Brussels', which is how the EU is understood from Britain. It's why I think your euroscepticismscepticism is quite interesting :lol:
Interesting that apparently the FN think Jobbik and Golden Dawn are too extreme :lol:
QuoteNationally seems like a bit of a Labour resurgence, all be it from last time's low base
'We're doing better than last time!' Though last time was 2009 when they were lead by Gordon Brown during the expenses scandal and won 16% of the vote. They're not doing well. The Tory vote is holding up, Lib Dems have gone to Labour and it's not enough.
It'll change but outside London, Wales and Scotland they're neck and neck with the Tories which is embarrassing at this point.
Epic 3d graphics fail presentation from Jeremy Vine. :bleeding:
Wouldn't simple 2d graphs convey the information better?
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 06:04:49 PM
Epic 3d graphics fail presentation from Jeremy Vine. :bleeding:
Wouldn't simple 2d graphs convey the information better?
Is it just me or did the noise they used when they showed the voting change sound like that of a toilet flush?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 05:54:09 PM
What was that? From what I read it was like the Dutch can't print election results but had to give them verbally if asked :lol:
Votes were counted on Thursday but the official results were not published until all countries had finished voting.
However, the counting has to be done publicly, so anyone can go into a polling station and listen to votes being counted. And the official in charge has to tell anyone who asks the final numbers. Apparently the EU was informed of this in advance.
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 06:06:31 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 06:04:49 PM
Epic 3d graphics fail presentation from Jeremy Vine. :bleeding:
Wouldn't simple 2d graphs convey the information better?
Is it just me or did the noise they used when they showed the voting change sound like that of a toilet flush?
Yeah, nearly as annoying as the fake house of commons sounds from Thursday's tv presentation. <_<
Quote from: Maladict on May 25, 2014, 06:06:41 PMVotes were counted on Thursday but the official results were not published until all countries had finished voting.
However, the counting has to be done publicly, so anyone can go into a polling station and listen to votes being counted. And the official in charge has to tell anyone who asks the final numbers. Apparently the EU was informed of this in advance.
Okay, that makes sense. Do you have to count straight away in the Netherlands or could you have just stored the ballot boxes until tonight?
I'm presuming that's what we did in the UK :mellow:
Edit: Incidentally one consequence of this is that I assume the US-EU free trade deal is probably dead for the next few years.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 06:03:05 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 25, 2014, 05:56:28 PM
Yeah. What is that though. I am all for a United States of Europe, but don't think it would be the best of ideas with this huge bureaucratic overhead.
I don't know. I'm 50-50 on whether to stay in at all. Personally I'd say they need to start with a new economic policy. They won't.
Edit: Incidentally Tamas I was just reading an article with this famous Thatcher quote 'we have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them reimposed at a European level, with a European superstate exercising a new dominance from Brussels', which is how the EU is understood from Britain. It's why I think your euroscepticismscepticism is quite interesting :lol:
Interesting that apparently the FN think Jobbik and Golden Dawn are too extreme :lol:
QuoteNationally seems like a bit of a Labour resurgence, all be it from last time's low base
'We're doing better than last time!' Though last time was 2009 when they were lead by Gordon Brown during the expenses scandal and won 16% of the vote. They're not doing well. The Tory vote is holding up, Lib Dems have gone to Labour and it's not enough.
It'll change but outside London, Wales and Scotland they're neck and neck with the Tories which is embarrassing at this point.
There is the desire to make the EU more efficient, and the desire to leave it / see it fall.
Europe needs the EU. But yeah it needs a laisez faire EU, not 68's lefties dream EU :P
Best news from the night - the BNP's vote has, as predicted by the polls, collapsed.
[Although I admire the tweet from Nick Griffin asking someone to tell him how to change the title of his twitter account so he can keep his current one.]
Second best (provisionally) - the Greens not improving their vote share.
Edit: Apparently the leading Labour candidate for the North-West thinks the destruction of the BNP is the best news of the night as well...then she went somewhat overboard by saying that the north-west had shown that they wanted the Labour party of Ed Milliband to represent them.
The figures are
Labour 3
UKIP 3
Conservative 2
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
Is it any wonder France's Jews are looking to leave France :(
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 06:21:31 PM
Best news from the night - the BNP's vote has, as predicted by the polls, collapsed.
[Although I admire the tweet from Nick Griffin asking someone to tell him how to change the title of his twitter account so he can keep his current one.]
Second best (provisionally) - the Greens not improving their vote share.
Edit: Apparently the leading Labour candidate for the North-West thinks the destruction of the BNP is the best news as well...then she blew it by saying that the north-west had shown that they wanted the Labour party of Ed Milliband to represent them.
The figures are
Labour 3
UKIP 3
Conservative 2
:hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 06:27:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
Is it any wonder France's Jews are looking to leave France :(
That. The shooting in Belgium. Golden Dawn and Jobbik winning over 10%. Yeah it's a sad week for Europe :(
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 06:29:38 PM
:hmm:
So far they're actually down 1%. It's just the Lib Dem collapse is so bad they're now behind the Greens :lol:
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 06:21:31 PM
Second best (provisionally) - the Greens not improving their vote share.
:hmm:
Most of the Greens that
(a) I meet
(b) I see asking questions on political shows
(c) Are active in politics
strike me as being either lunatics or unthinkingly doctrinaire in their opinions.
Take wind-power - no electricity generated by wind-power is ever part of the base load because it is too unreliable. This also means that if it generates power at the wrong time the capacity is wasted, and that it might not be available when needed. Yet Greens seem incapable of considering alternatives to the current doctrine of "Wind Power Good".
There are honourable exceptions but they are few and far between. Even the more sane ones abroad tend to throw their weight behind ideas that I fundamentally disagree with (such as Germany ditching nuclear power.)
Plus, of course, the current situation in Brighton is an excellent showcase of what happens when British Greens get into power.
Edit: And the Greens have lost an MEP...this is getting better and better. At this rate they'll make no headway at all (they were making wild claims of doubling or tripling their representation, presumably counting on the Lib Dem collapse helping them.)
Quote from: Tamas on May 25, 2014, 06:15:15 PM
There is the desire to make the EU more efficient, and the desire to leave it / see it fall.
Europe needs the EU. But yeah it needs a laisez faire EU, not 68's lefties dream EU :P
So the Tory view?
And if negotiating with the French, Italians and Poles for a more efficient EU fails, then what? :mellow:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 06:09:36 PM
Okay, that makes sense. Do you have to count straight away in the Netherlands or could you have just stored the ballot boxes until tonight?
I assumed it had to be done straight away, but apparently a few municipalities have waited until today.
Not sure what that's about.
Lib Dems win a seat! :o
Wow - the Lib Dems have a seat! And not from London.
Edit: And Damn, assuming London votes as expected it looks as if the Greens will lose vote-share and gain a seat. It looks like I was celebrating to soon. :cry:
My region elects a LidDem, a hold apparently and only just, a few less and they'd have lost the seat.
Excluding Scotland and London:
(https://o.twimg.com/2/proxy.jpg?t=HBgpaHR0cHM6Ly90d2l0cGljLmNvbS9zaG93L2xhcmdlL2U0cTdhMy5qcGcU_AUU6gUAFgASAA&s=NbDlV_oZNXv6M5bsKdS2YHDg1vrz_JQL56y4i2cO3d4)
If I were Labour I'd be very worried by that.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 06:51:15 PM
Excluding Scotland and London:
(https://o.twimg.com/2/proxy.jpg?t=HBgpaHR0cHM6Ly90d2l0cGljLmNvbS9zaG93L2xhcmdlL2U0cTdhMy5qcGcU_AUU6gUAFgASAA&s=NbDlV_oZNXv6M5bsKdS2YHDg1vrz_JQL56y4i2cO3d4)
If I were Labour I'd be very worried by that.
:yes:
That's pretty grim.
How do you calculate that? 24% gives 13 but 7.5% gives only 1?
Quote from: Liep on May 25, 2014, 06:56:18 PM
How do you calculate that? 24% gives 13 but 7.5% gives only 1?
D'Hondt and the vote being regional, not national.
Mainly D'Hondt. :glare:
Edit: Oh, and the table being incomplete yet, of course.
Quote from: Liep on May 25, 2014, 06:56:18 PM
How do you calculate that? 24% gives 13 but 7.5% gives only 1?
The seats are allocated by region, not a national list.
But we use the D'Hondt system to work them out, which is very confusing :lol:
Erk...
Bit of a booboo there by the BBC lead.
"11 regions of England."
What a gift to the SNP. I hope they don't notice it.
Edit: I think he had an editor scream in his ear - his use of Great Britain when the camera turned back to him was very, very clear.
Good bit of tv politics, top LibDem puts it to Danny Alexander that they're doing it wrong, the electorate have given them a clear message.
Problems at Tower Hamlets are causing a knock-on delaying effect on the final London result.
Tower Hamlets :bleeding: :weep:
London delaying.
Still, those figures from the Boroughs look interesting.
They were harping on about the LibDem vote going down but the interesting figure to me was the "Others" vote going down even more drastically.
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 07:20:37 PM
London delaying.
Still, those figures from the Boroughs look interesting.
They were harping on about the LibDem vote going down but the interesting figure to me was the "Others" vote going down even more drastically.
And there was no elucidation at to what those were. <_<
Well they don't matter. They've got no seats. I'd guess one could be NotoEU which did a little better in London than the rest of the country last time because they had Bob Crow as a candidate.
Interesting that UKIP and the Tories are on 30% in Scotland.
Edit: Also to return to that over 30% of young voters in France who voted FN, only 21% of over-60s did. I think we need to look again at youth unemployment and the idea that it's the old who are anti-Europe and nationalist.
The true ideological Europeans (and the loyal socialists) are old possibly? What's the EU offered a young Frenchperson? The choice of unemployment or emigration?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
Well they don't matter. They've got no seats. I'd guess one could be NotoEU which did a little better in London than the rest of the country last time because they had Bob Crow as a candidate.
Interesting that UKIP and the Tories are on 30% in Scotland.
A chunk of the others would have been BNP, who have collapsed everythere, which would fit those figures; perhaps because those racists voted UKIP.
Wait the Tories...in Scotland? Huh.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
What's the EU offered a young Frenchperson? The choice of unemployment or emigration?
Yet they are more employed than Americans :hmm:
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 07:26:49 PM
A chunk of the others would have been BNP, who have collapsed everythere, which would fit those figures; perhaps because those racists voted UKIP.
Well they've been declining in Barking and Dagenham for a the last two elections. UKIP will have helped but I think Labour have the real credit for that.
The bits of London UKIP have done best in (in the council elections at least) are the outer suburbs nudging into Kent and Essex.
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 07:27:03 PM
Wait the Tories...in Scotland? Huh.
The Tories in Scotland (and this election, given the results across the UK, probably confirms this if there'd been any doubt before) seem to be down to an irreducible minimum - 17% of the Scottish electorate will vote for them come-what-may. This is pretty useless in a first past the post system but has given them an MEP from Scotland ever since they changed these elections to the D'Hondt form of PR from First-Past-the-Post IIRC.
'The Conservative Family' (conservative+ukip) :blink:
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 07:26:49 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
Well they don't matter. They've got no seats. I'd guess one could be NotoEU which did a little better in London than the rest of the country last time because they had Bob Crow as a candidate.
Interesting that UKIP and the Tories are on 30% in Scotland.
A chunk of the others would have been BNP, who have collapsed everythere, which would fit those figures; perhaps because those racists voted UKIP.
I'm wondering what this decline of "others" means for the Green vote in London.
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 07:26:49 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
Well they don't matter. They've got no seats. I'd guess one could be NotoEU which did a little better in London than the rest of the country last time because they had Bob Crow as a candidate.
Interesting that UKIP and the Tories are on 30% in Scotland.
A chunk of the others would have been BNP, who have collapsed everythere, which would fit those figures; perhaps because those racists voted UKIP.
I'm wondering what this decline of "others" means for the Green vote in London.
It's a given, a chunk of them left for Brighton over recent years. :P
And then fled the massive catastrophe that is Brighton Council :bleeding:
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 07:34:08 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 07:26:49 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
Well they don't matter. They've got no seats. I'd guess one could be NotoEU which did a little better in London than the rest of the country last time because they had Bob Crow as a candidate.
Interesting that UKIP and the Tories are on 30% in Scotland.
A chunk of the others would have been BNP, who have collapsed everythere, which would fit those figures; perhaps because those racists voted UKIP.
I'm wondering what this decline of "others" means for the Green vote in London.
It's a given, a chunk of them left for Brighton over recent years. :P
:lol:
In London they're thinking of giving up, go home and let Tower hamlets carry one. Maybe announce something on Tuesday? <_<
Quote from: mongers on May 25, 2014, 07:47:09 PM
In London they're thinking of giving up, go home and let Tower hamlets carry one. Maybe announce something on Tuesday? <_<
:glare:
Hardly a good advert for Britain, that our capital can't complete an electoral count on time.
Interesting that overall every mainstream group within the European Parliament lost seats :mellow:
Edit: Also, the Renzi effect in Italy:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bog9676IEAEHyfN.png)
:mmm:
Now he needs to break every fiscal pact going to get Italy growing and dare the ECB to kick Italy out of the Euro :w00t:
Or, he'll Hollande :(
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 08:02:54 PM
Interesting that overall every mainstream group within the European Parliament lost seats :mellow:
Indeed, though the Jeremy Vine performance has robbed me of the will to live, so of to be me thinks. :(
Also the Belgians had a general election. As usual no-one outside Belgium understands or cares what this means:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bogz8okIQAA_RR1.png)
Edit: Also France by region:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BohCUMNCEAAX-HG.png)
:o :bleeding:
Tower Hamlets are now very optimistic. :cool:
Dimbleby's now sharing Victorian anecdotes as one council seat in Tower Hamlets goes for another recount. It's about to start it's third recount after 75 hours and 45 minutes of counting :lol:
The returning officer is knitting scarves for 'wool against nuclear weapons' :lol:
Edit: Apology, it's the chair of the London Greens who's knitting. Because of course.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 08:20:23 PM
Dimbleby's now sharing Victorian anecdotes as one council seat in Tower Hamlets goes for another recount. It's about to start it's third recount after 75 hours and 45 minutes of counting :lol:
The returning officer is knitting scarves for 'wool against nuclear weapons' :lol:
Edit: Apology, it's the chair of the London Greens who's knitting. Because of course.
Wool's a tough natural fibre, isn't it?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 08:09:33 PM
Edit: Also France by region:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BohCUMNCEAAX-HG.png)
:o :bleeding:
Holy shit. I hope this is normal bizarre Euro Parliament voting.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 08:02:54 PM
Now he needs to break every fiscal pact going to get Italy growing and dare the ECB to kick Italy out of the Euro :w00t:
:yeah:
Huh, the French are pissed off. Jives with my observations over there the last two years.
Not shocking.
The agents have been called in for the London vote.
Correspondent: 'So what can happen now?'
Dimbleby: 'Well, anything. The agents can challenge the vote.'
Correspondent: 'Oh God yes, I suppose they can.' :lol: :weep:
Inclined to agree with Art Goldhammer, 'Summing up EU elections: No one in Europe is happy with the status quo except the Germans, who are the only people capable of changing it.'
Looks like Labour got almost 40% of the vote in London :blink:
And UKIP still won 17% of the vote. Lib Dems last and lose their other MEP. So they've only got 1 MEP (from 11) :lol:
Edit: So now we've just got to wait for Scotland which will come in tomorrow - the Western Isles refuse to count votes on the Sabbath. Everything's counted but the Western Isles, so we know the result as there's too few votes there to matter.
I don't know why Northern Ireland's not reported :mellow:
The Irish are drunk.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
completely logical (and has happened in other countries too over the past 3 decades): as socialists turn into loft-socialists their core-constituencies turn to parties who actually do seem to care about their issues.
Usually these parties are then labeled to as extreme-right but often enough -when one studies their actual program- it turns out that these parties are far less to the right than one would think.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 08:09:33 PM
Also the Belgians had a general election. As usual no-one outside Belgium understands or cares what this means:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bogz8okIQAA_RR1.png)
what that picture means is francofones fapping over the possibility to sideline the largest party of the country (and by a wide margin too) in order to keep the flemish subservient to francofone interests...
Luckily for them Belgium is not, and never has been, a democracy
So, London declares after I throw in the towel and retire...
Does Labour celebrate due to their massive winning margin in London or fret because across England and Wales it's only thanks to London that they moved ahead of the Tories?
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 06:27:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
Is it any wonder France's Jews are looking to leave France :(
Jews under Marine Le Pen's FN are not in danger. Le Pen père would troll antisemitically, and that would be all.
As for leaving, some French Jews leave and since Hebrew is a tough language (the'y're French so Anglos excepted they're the worst at languages) they come back.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
Well they don't matter. They've got no seats. I'd guess one could be NotoEU which did a little better in London than the rest of the country last time because they had Bob Crow as a candidate.
Interesting that UKIP and the Tories are on 30% in Scotland.
Edit: Also to return to that over 30% of young voters in France who voted FN, only 21% of over-60s did. I think we need to look again at youth unemployment and the idea that it's the old who are anti-Europe and nationalist.
The true ideological Europeans (and the loyal socialists) are old possibly? What's the EU offered a young Frenchperson? The choice of unemployment or emigration?
Frenchperson :x
They vote against Hollande and the UMP is not exactly convincing. As for the "Jeunesse emmerde le FN" from leftist rock groups (Bérurier noir) it has been wrong for a while yes.
I predit a new world record for forming a government in Belgium!!!
Quote from: Archy on May 26, 2014, 06:01:50 AM
I predit a new world record for forming a government in Belgium!!!
sadly enough not.
BBC world news was hilarious this morning. :lol:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 26, 2014, 03:24:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 06:27:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
Is it any wonder France's Jews are looking to leave France :(
Jews under Marine Le Pen's FN are not in danger. Le Pen père would troll antisemitically, and that would be all.
As for leaving, some French Jews leave and since Hebrew is a tough language (the'y're French so Anglos excepted they're the worst at languages) they come back.
"they are just trolling" has been the common excuse for dangerous racists since at least a hundred years. It is totally wrong. Even IF the leaders are trolling, a portion of their fanbase aren't. And that is the part of the supporter base with the most conviction, drive, and agression. They are bound to take effective control of a government dominated by their party, exactly for the same reason "trolling" antisemitism is a-ok: because the rest of the supporters are at the very least willing to turn a blind eye toward their antisemitism/racism, otherwise they would not vote on the party.
for parties like the FN to do well one needs to look at the traditional parties: how badly have they messed up their mandate during the past decades that an increasingly large part of the population is willing to send a big "fuck you" to the traditionals.
Calling them all racists is counterproductive, is not going to solve the issues that led to te protestvotes and will -if maintained long enough- not result in these voters returning to the traditional parties. Insult the voters long and often enough and you might lose their votes for 20 to 30 years.
It's also poor spin. Before the election everybody was fighting to be the most sceptical EU party because they saw the polls favour the far right, instead of trying to explain how much you can accomplish with the EU. That of course only made more people sceptical and thus seeking the original sceptics.
Quote from: Liep on May 26, 2014, 08:32:32 AM
It's also poor spin. Before the election everybody was fighting to be the most sceptical EU party because they saw the polls favour the far right, instead of trying to explain how much you can accomplish with the EU. That of course only made more people sceptical and thus seeking the original sceptics.
Parties trying to educate the electorate on why their views are in the best interests of the country instead of changing the platform to adhere the current climate? Not on my watch!
Quote from: Agelastus on May 25, 2014, 07:04:51 PM
Erk...
Bit of a booboo there by the BBC lead.
"11 regions of England."
What a gift to the SNP. I hope they don't notice it.
Edit: I think he had an editor scream in his ear - his use of Great Britain when the camera turned back to him was very, very clear.
For a moment there I was well impressed the SNP getting seats in england. Was wondering if they were on the ballot or if they were write-ins.
Quote from: celedhring on May 26, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Parties trying to educate the electorate on why their views are in the best interests of the country instead of changing the platform to adhere the current climate? Not on my watch!
This is basically what the single remaining Lib Dem MEP said. There's maybe some truth to it. Trouble is I think you'll be cherry-picking and it'll be seen through. And also it's a bit like Tony Benn in 1983 - the reason Labour lost isn't that they were too extreme for most people the electorate weren't educated enough, they were hoodwinked by the Murdoch-media.
I thought this was a striking piece, and I agree with its read:
QuoteWhat price the EU, including fascists?
Imagine you went to sleep in 1994 and woke up, 20 years later, as the Euro election results were coming in.
In France, the Front National (FN), which had been stuck on 11 per cent 20 years ago, has won. The anti-immigration, nationalist right looks to have won in Hungary, Denmark and the UK. Meanwhile the Greek Marxist left, which in 1994 was just a few thousand strong, has also won, and Sinn Fein are storming various cities in Ireland.
As you rub your eyes, you wonder: what could have caused this? Has there been a 1930s style Depression? You check all available sources: in Greece, Spain and Portugal there's been Depression-like unemployment but in France and Austria and Denmark? No. The big picture is that a global Depression has been averted.
So what's happened?
Piecing together the evidence, this is what I think you would conclude.
First, that for about a fifth to a quarter of Europeans, consent for mass immigration has broken. And now – you struggle to get your 1994 head around this – many people are more worried about white, Christian people coming from eastern Europe than they are Africans scrambling over the fences at Europe's borders (though they are worried about this too). For some, it's about the erosion of traditional cultures, for others it's about wages, others still it's overt hostility to Islam. Either way it's a fact.
Second, there is a gross breakdown of trust in European institutions, its bureaucracy and the mainstream parties. Even people who still vote for the centrist socialists or conservatives feel like they are struggling to hold the line. In national elections turnouts are down; corruption scandals are the meat and drink of press coverage from Valencia to Budapest and Nicosia.
Third, and specifically in France, Denmark, Hungary and Austria – there is a hunger for economic policies that protect their own country's industries and welfare systems against the impact of globalisation. If you read the FN's manifesto, for example, it is heavily about protecting domestic industry and the welfare system.
Finally, liberalism and social democracy look more devastated than the conservative European People's Party (EPP).
Now, fascinating though it is to see Hitler-apologist fruitcakes elected in Poland, and goose-stepping fascists doing well in both Hungary and Greece, you turn your gaze at Britain.
What you conclude is that, for the first time in modern British politics the established party system is facing a legitimacy crisis.
It's been amusing to see the pundits try and interpret the local and Euro election results as "four party politics". We are at the very least in a period of seven party politics – with the SNP, Plaid, Ukip and Greens. But in reality the situation here is better described as beyond-party politics.
As I wrote on Friday, there is a culture war going on, driven by extreme discontent among a minority of people whose lifestyles do not conform to, nor their economic prospects improve under, globalised capitalism and social liberalism.
We can now see the UK situation as a very specific expression of a wider discontent across Europe. Liberalism, freemarket conservatism and social democracy are all in crisis, but to different extents.
The liberal problem in a nutshell is that, across Europe, liberals have tried simultaneously to identify with the old project of free markets and free movement – and at the same time to represent the discontented lower-middle classes. But the discontent of the lower-middle class has now moved in the direction of economic nationalism, opposition to immigration and opposition to elite politics.
Britain is a microcosm of this: the old Lib Dems always contained a minority prepared to play to white anti-immigration voters – for example in Tower Hamlets in the 1990s. Now those voters are gone to Ukip, while the progressives, students and eco-warriors – the famous Mosaic Group E that electoral strategists used to obsess about – are scattered between Labour, the Greens and active refusal to vote.
Next, Labour. As the Euro results show, social democracy is in crisis across Europe. The political reasons are fairly clear: no social democratic party has been able to break with the old globalisation agenda – but they have in addition been required to sign up to austerity, removing their ability to deliver, or even promise, a better welfare system or higher wages to offset the impacts of globalisation. In Spain, a left-social democratic party, Podemos, was created from scratch and got 8 per cent.
Meanwhile, the mass base of social-democracy is being politically and economically transformed. What we loosely call the "white working class" in western Europe always had the advantage of high social capital: the pub, the kafeneion, the piazza. In these spaces, people have not worked out their response to being abandoned in a fragmented or atomised way: it's been discussed, debated, a new "common sense" has emerged. And what it comes down to is a large minority of them have had enough of globalisation if there are no upsides to it, for them or their children.
In a situation where social-democracy's main mission becomes impossible – to deliver social justice within the European Union of Maastricht and Lisbon – you then get the complication of a leadership lottery. In Greece, Pasok's leaders managed to destroy their party by ineptitude. In Denmark, a strong-character party leader – Helle Thorning-Schmidt – managed to hold the line. In Britain, you get Ed Miliband, in France Monsieur Hollande. Apart from flat leading personalities, many social democratic parties also have the problem that they are machine-administrative organisations that breed uncharismatic leaders.
On the BBC's Have I Got News for You last month they played a cruel trick on Nigel Farage, making him classify various Ukip candidates as either "fruitcake or loon?". If you played an equally cruel game on the European social-democrats it might be called "boring, chinless or discredited?"
Britain's Labour Party is not finished because of what's happened this weekend. Indeed it is pressing many of the right buttons – on the evidence – among the Mosaic social group E – while clawing back its support in the working class heartlands of the north.
But the Scottish referendum and the conference season will be critical to its ability to look like a potential government come May 2015.
And the Euros are a reminder that, although there has been no Syriza-style left breakthrough, the Green Party vote is solidifying to the left of Labour, at 8 per cent in the UK exit poll as I write this.
Now for the Conservatives. As Conservative peer Michael Ashcroft pointed out on Saturday, the default position is quite good for Labour and quite discouraging for the Conservatives. The polling results from Thursday translate into Labour winning its key marginals and getting a small majority in 2015.
Why this is bad for Cameron is obvious if you consider his advantages: an economic recovery, some competent ministers; no major crisis (yet) in the NHS despite a massive reform programme; strong support from most major newspapers; and the aura of incumbency.
But the Tories' poor showing in the Euro elections – when incumbent centre-right parties in Europe have done well – goes to the heart of the challenge: the natural base of the Conservative party has, for 200 years, been people who espouse patriotism, church, a big military and constrained immigration. The win predicted for Ukip in the UK Euro elections shows where many of those people voted.
Where does it go next? The most frightening prospect for the entire British centre is the attitude of the centre in Europe. It is likely that they will press on with the Euro project faster and deeper, regardless. There is no message of mollification coming from the panjandrums of the old commission, nor from the German CDU.
If the centre holds its nerve, and pushes forward to a banking union and deeper fiscal union, then whatever the policy outcome, the outcome at a level of emotional narrative will only accelerate the detachment of the discontented.
The choice for European centrist politics is clear: either tweak or jerk the Euro project in the direction that it delivers for the workers and the young or see populist parties of the left and right go on growing.
One final point: at some point one of these non-centrist parties is going to win an election. You can easily see the next French presidential poll being a run off between Le Pen and a centrist candidate; Syriza could well win in Greece in 2015, it's no longer crazy to imaging Sinn Fein one day running the Irish Republic.
If a far left or right party ever gets to run an EU member state, the mere fact of it will affect how people in other states view the project as a whole. It will pose the question: do you want to be part of a Europe where swastika-waving Golden Dawn get into the parliament; where Marine Le Pen could sit in the Elysee? The Euro project was supposed to make sure the continent could never again go fascist. If European legislatures are now crawling with fascists, what was the point of that?
So pinch yourself: you have not been asleep since 1994 but like the famous boiling frog you have been slowly experiencing the withdrawal of consent for the European project by a vocal fifth or quarter of the population.
This is the night (or by now morning) the mainstream actually realised the water was getting uncomfortably hot.
- See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/price-eu-awash-nazis/851#sthash.3DE7p0YT.dpuf
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 26, 2014, 08:19:59 AM
for parties like the FN to do well one needs to look at the traditional parties: how badly have they messed up their mandate during the past decades that an increasingly large part of the population is willing to send a big "fuck you" to the traditionals.
Calling them all racists is counterproductive, is not going to solve the issues that led to te protestvotes and will -if maintained long enough- not result in these voters returning to the traditional parties. Insult the voters long and often enough and you might lose their votes for 20 to 30 years.
There's something to this but that's a domestic problem for French politicians.
There are other populist right parties - like UKIP and the Finns - that don't want to work with the FN because they think they're racist and anti-semitic. That indicates to me they've probably not cleaned themselves up enough.
QuoteIt's also poor spin. Before the election everybody was fighting to be the most sceptical EU party because they saw the polls favour the far right, instead of trying to explain how much you can accomplish with the EU. That of course only made more people sceptical and thus seeking the original sceptics.
The Lib Dems ran a pro-Europe campaign. They went from 11 MEPs to 1.
And what can we accomplish in Europe? The great accomplishment and culmination of Europe so far has been the Euro. The consequence of that has been an economic catastrophe. We've got enforced recessions followed by deflation (remember banks are currently projecting that Spain will have recovered in 2029), weakening of the European welfare state and a nostalgic return for Ireland to the days when the old save their money to send the young to America and Britain.
QuoteJews under Marine Le Pen's FN are not in danger. Le Pen père would troll antisemitically, and that would be all.
You don't need to be in danger to feel uncomfortable in a country. Though the two are linked - see the Belgian Orthodox Jews talking about their experience of daily hostility which undoubtedly creates an atmosphere were attacks can happen. But 2013 saw a 75% increase in French Jews leaving for Israel and the first statistics for 2014 indicate it'll be at the highest level since 1948. That's an issue and I don't think you can can ignore the rise of an anti-semitic party for partly causing it (or the context necessary for that rise).
Few other interesting notes: the leader of the Irish Labour Party (junior party in the coalition) has resigned after his parties done terribly. Hard-left candidates have beaten Labour candidates in some areas and Sinn Fein topped the poll overall. Most incredibly of all apparently in the Irish council election Fianna Fail are back, indicating they really are the black swan of Irish politics :bleeding: :o
Also the Syriza vote has broken out of urban areas into the countryside:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BokgfpMIYAAewWc.jpg:large)
And finally from Art Goldhammer's blog he mentioned a line that in France the far left struggles against the FN because they're seen as the parties of people who are already 'protected' from globalisation - like public sector workers. Which is an interesting thought. It reminds me of what a Tory said over the Labour result in London v the rest of the country: they're no longer the party of the working class, but of the public sector manager.
Edit: Also apparently UKIP's new Scottish MEP is also their first gay MEP which is nice.
Edit: And the FT worked out that Eurosceptic MEPs of all shades now have 25% of the Parliament. The biggest group, the EPP only has 28.5%.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.static-economist.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Foriginal-size%2Fimages%2F2014%2F05%2Fblogs%2Fgraphic-detail%2F20140531_gdc002.png&hash=fa1daba3bbf9cd8e75c020f1b0dbc99df7153bdc)
Looking at the German result, this is actually wrong. The NPD (Nazis) won a seat as well and they are surely "very eurosceptic".
Another seat was won by a comedian who will now try to switch seats with another party member every month.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2014, 11:47:49 AM
I don't think you can can ignore the rise of an anti-semitic party for partly causing it (or the context necessary for that rise).
The bigger factor will be something else though. And we all know what.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 26, 2014, 01:44:46 PMThe bigger factor will be something else though. And we all know what.
You're right. Nothing could make Jews feel more at home than the sight of Frenchmen scapegoating a minority community for their own willingness to elect a party 10 years from Holocaust denial.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
This is basically what the single remaining Lib Dem MEP said. There's maybe some truth to it. Trouble is I think you'll be cherry-picking and it'll be seen through. And also it's a bit like Tony Benn in 1983 - the reason Labour lost isn't that they were too extreme for most people the electorate weren't educated enough, they were hoodwinked by the Murdoch-media.
I thought this was a striking piece, and I agree with its read:
QuoteWhat price the EU, including fascists?
- See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/price-eu-awash-nazis/851#sthash.3DE7p0YT.dpuf
It's been a while since you've posted anything I agree with, but me too, +1, I agree.
It's not just the eu level but there is a disconnect between the voter and the politician. They are seen as some sort of other. Politicians are not citizens performing a social duty for society itself, they are professional politicians looking for a job. Being a politician is a full time job. Nobody meets a politician at work or at a social activity. For them their work is with other politicians and their social activity is with other politicians. It's a separate ruling class (without the normal ruling class benefits of wealth and power). Two elections ago I volunteered for the campaign for the Conservative Party here in Norway. What baffled me most was when talking to the person on the street about "our policies" the argument that "this is good for the country" swayed nobody. It was all "what can you do for me as a student" or ".. a mother" or whatever.
People don't see politics as being something that society does for itself, but rather something that a separate class does for the rest of us. They are Plato's Gold people or Divergent's Abnegation. The local parliament has legitimacy and historical caché, the EU parliament doesn't.
The other thing that blog brought up was the non-consent for the various policies specially on immigration and multiculturalism (I know, he didn't use that word, but I'm using it). A people who see themselves are wards of a custodial political class which can't be replaced due to the end of history; the policies of the left of center being virtually identical to the policies of the left of center; find themselves unable to do anything about how their neighborhood is changing and how their city or village is changing. They can protest the new shopping market but they can't go and protest the family from afghanistan social services moved into old Rosies house after she died.
Farage is right about a democratic defecit, he's just missing the mark. The EU is more a canary in the coalmine than the problem itself. Nobody looks at it and thinks, well, they represent us...
This is the same problem as the one that makes news into entertainment and the one that leaves the electorate ignorant of what exchange rates and hedge funds are and do. Our problem is that our voters are ignorant, stupid, lazy and don't care until it is too late. The elite is right about them. They are also right about the elite.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2014, 01:57:00 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 26, 2014, 01:44:46 PMThe bigger factor will be something else though. And we all know what.
You're right. Nothing could make Jews feel more at home than the sight of Frenchmen scapegoating a minority community for their own willingness to elect a party 10 years from Holocaust denial.
nope, wrong answer
I'll answer these in a bit but just wanted to post this piece on UKIP in 2015, one of the writers was the author of the book that accurately predicted where UKIP would do well:
QuoteUkip have torn up the map
After their success in the local elections, Ukip are poised to wreak havoc in 2015. Robert Ford and Ian Warren explain where and how the battle will be fought
By Robert Ford and Ian Warren
Nigel Farage scored a spectacular triumph in the early hours of Monday morning, leading Ukip to the first nationwide victory for a new political party in almost a century. Coming on top of Ukip's success in the local elections, it was hailed as heralding the age of "four-party politics" in England. Mr Farage had shattered the mould of British democracy, and thrown next year's general election – already set to be the closest and most unpredictable for a generation – into turmoil.
These claims may seem exaggerated. But the more you look at the data – the further you drill down into how people actually voted on Thursday – the more you can see that predictions that Ukip will fade away are a case of wishful thinking. It is now crystal clear that the party really does have the potential to cause chaos in 2015, affecting all three parties in unforeseen and unpredictable ways.
To see why, it helps to understand what matters most about these results, at least in terms of the general election. For, while Ukip's European triumph has stolen the headlines, their less dramatic advances at local level will ultimately be more important.
The real currency of elections, after all, is not votes, but seats. Before their breakthrough last year, Ukip had won only a handful of local council places in their 20-year history. They now have more than 300 councillors, enough to make them a significant presence in town halls up and down the country.
Why does this matter? Because Britain's first-past-the-post system poses a huge challenge to any new party, whose support is usually spread evenly over the country. As the Liberal Democrats have learnt, national popularity counts for nothing at Westminster unless you can win locally. So parties like Ukip must try to convince sceptical voters that they are a viable option in constituencies where they have no track record of success.
Thursday's results were a powerful response to this challenge. In many seats, Ukip activists can now argue on the doorstep that they are the dominant force in local elections, and a strong presence on the council. That will help convince voters that returning a Ukip MP is a logical progression, not a leap into the unknown. In seats like Eastleigh and Rotherham, where Ukip are now the main opposition party on the council, they can start to put the squeeze on the Tories, arguing that even if they can't win outright in 2015, they are the only credible opposition to the incumbent. In other seats, such as Great Yarmouth, their strength may already be sufficient to take a place at Westminster.
There are three particular characteristics of Ukip's performance last week that should cause sleepless nights for strategists from the main parties. First, they have shown they can take votes from anyone – deposing the Tory council leader in Basildon, the Labour deputy leader in Rotherham, and sweeping the board in North East Lincolnshire. The best way to see the wider impact of this is to compare the seats where Ukip stood for the first time in 2014 with those where they did not have a candidate. When Ukip appeared, the Tory vote fell by six percentage points, and Labour by eight. Even the Lib Dems, who faced a drubbing everywhere, did two points worse when Ukip joined the fight.
Second, although it is hard to predict which party Ukip will hurt most locally – in the wards where their advance was strongest, Labour and the Tories lost out almost equally – it is easy to predict which voters they will win. The recent book Revolt on the Right (co-written by Robert Ford) showed that Ukip draw their support from a very clear demographic: the "left-behind" electorate of older, working-class white voters with few educational qualifications. Last week's results confirmed their strength within this group, and their weakness outside it. Ukip surged in areas along the east coast with large concentrations of such voters – places like North East Lincolnshire, Hull and Basildon – and flopped among the younger, more ethnically diverse electorates of London, Manchester and other big cities, as well as in university-dominated areas such as Oxford and Cambridge.
It is entirely possible that Ukip will not win any Westminster seats outright (and equally possible that it will win a dozen). But the real problem for the existing parties is the third factor at work – namely, that there are a host of battleground seats where Ukip support is large enough to have a decisive impact, even if the party comes nowhere near winning.
Paradoxically, the seats where Ukip may be most influential are not those with the largest concentrations of supporters. The "left-behinds" tend to be concentrated in safe Labour seats – often struggling former mining and manufacturing towns in the North of England. In most, Ukip could take an enormous bite out of the vote without actually threatening the incumbent.
No, the seats that will give Tory and Labour strategists migraines are different – those where the incumbent is less dominant, and the Ukip-leaning groups are large enough to swing the result. To identify such seats, we created an index of local Ukip strength, measuring concentrations of "left-behind" groups. Then we identified the marginal seats where the gap between the top two parties was less than 15 per cent, and the share of "left-behinds" was well above the national average.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02922%2FScreen_shot_2014-0_2922524c.jpg&hash=c9fd2f5a169178075a263307049867c48f92ab21)
Areas where there are high numbers of Ukip-leaning voters are coloured shades of purple. The marginal seats in which its impact will be crucial are outlined in black
The result is this map (above) which shows the seats where Ukip's intervention could prove critical. Areas where the share of Ukip-leaning groups is well above average are marked in shades of purple, with the black outlines showing the marginal constituencies where this will have the most impact.
There is a clear geographical pattern: in London or the large Northern cities, or in the Tory shires that ring the capital, Ukip will be irrelevant to the outcome. But in seat after seat along the east coast, through the former mining country of Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire, and across the South West and rural Wales, Ukip's showing could prove decisive. Indeed, in the European elections, Ukip topped the poll in nearly all of these areas, often posting above 40 per cent.
In these seats, a Ukip surge can upset the balance of power in several ways. For one thing, it can turn a straight two-way fight into an unpredictable three-way battle. Take Thanet South, a key marginal where Nigel Farage has been tipped to stand. If Ukip take support primarily from the Tories, as they did in Essex last week, they could deliver it to Labour. If they split the Labour vote, they could help the Tories cling on. If they really surge, and take votes from both parties, they could well win the seat themselves – particularly if Farage himself opts to stand.
Ukip also have the potential to turn seats long thought safe into new battlegrounds. Further up the coast is Great Grimsby, which Labour has held for many decades. The long-serving MP, Austin Mitchell, faced a strong Conservative challenge in 2010, and is now retiring. His Tory rival is standing again – but in Ukip colours. Next week's by-election in Newark could prove equally interesting. Patrick Mercer's former seat has a huge Tory majority, and while the leafy demographics are not favourable, the timing of the election is – plus there is a large Labour vote to squeeze. A close second from Ukip will cause Tories huge difficulties in 2015, particularly as there are seats nearby with more Ukip potential – such as Louth and Horncastle, where the veteran MP Sir Peter Tapsell is standing down, which has one the largest concentrations of Ukip leaners in the country.
Farage's party can even alter the outcome in seats where it is well out of the running. In Southampton Itchen, the local election results suggest that Ukip is splitting the Labour vote, which went backwards from an already low showing in 2010, while the Tories are holding up. If this was repeated at the general election, Ukip could tip a Labour seat into the Tory column. But we saw the opposite pattern in Ipswich, where a Ukip surge bit deep into the Tory vote, leaving Labour well ahead. In Thurrock, one of the tightest marginals in the country, Ukip is taking votes from both sides; the result in 2015 could be decided by whose vote is most (or least) damaged by Ukip rising star Tim Aker.
For David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg, the result is an electoral map of nightmarish complexity. Should they divert scarce resources to formerly safe seats, in order to see off a nascent Ukip challenge? Should they avoid fighting Ukip in areas where they seem to be mostly hurting their opponents, and run the risk of fuelling a revolt that could overwhelm their candidate, too? Should they try to win back Ukip supporters by adjusting their national message, and risk alienating the more moderate and diverse electorates in key urban and suburban marginals? Or should they work to win over Ukip voters at a more local level – and if so, what messages can they use to persuade them?
Past experience offers no guide for the parties on any of these questions, for the simple reason that the Ukip surge has no precedent in modern British politics. Last week's results have torn up the old political maps. We are in uncharted territory now.
Robert Ford is a lecturer in politics at University of Manchester, and co-author of 'Revolt on the Right' (Routledge). Ian Warren is a political analyst and author of the Election Data blog
Edit: Incidentally this is part of why Iain Martin is right to say how impossible it is to predict the election: economic recovery based on a new housing bubble, Clegg and the Lib Dems in melt down, how unpopular Miliband is, the Scottish problem and boundaries that favour Labour. I'm half inclined to bet on Labour winning most seats and Tories winning most votes.
Edit: Meanwhile the sons of Neil Kinnock (also the husband of the Prime Minister of Denmark) and Jack Straw will be Labour candidates in safe seats and Tony Blair's son is sniffing around for a seat too. That'll go down well with those left behind :bleeding: <_<
Quote from: Viking on May 26, 2014, 02:14:38 PM
The other thing that blog brought up was the non-consent for the various policies specially on immigration and multiculturalism (I know, he didn't use that word, but I'm using it). A people who see themselves are wards of a custodial political class which can't be replaced due to the end of history; the policies of the left of center being virtually identical to the policies of the left of center; find themselves unable to do anything about how their neighborhood is changing and how their city or village is changing. They can protest the new shopping market but they can't go and protest the family from afghanistan social services moved into old Rosies house after she died.
I don't buy this.
It doesn't match my experience. The immigration that's driven UKIP up the polls and placed that issue firmly in the top two biggest issues facing the country for most people is from Eastern Europe. The issue isn't Afghan refugees on the social services but white, Christian, hard-working, hard-drinking Poles. What's the cultural issue here?
I think it's economic. Immigration as a whole is good for the economy as a whole. However it does put pressure on people who at the bottom of the economic ladder. That's a problem. Similarly in areas I think it does put pressure on housing stock and can put pressure on certain public services - even though, again, in general immigration is good for the economy and the tax take.
As a leftie I think part of it is a function of wages policy, we've had a minimum wage in this country for 17 years and you can more or less count the number of prosecutions for paying under the minimum wage on the fingers of one hand. I also think a solution is that you start trying to organise workers and get unions back to protect workers' rights (see the 'Tres Cosas' campaign in London of Spanish-speaking cleaners and janitors). I think that's more of a solution than blaming people with the balls to move across the world or a continent to give themselves a chance of earning some more money. But denying the problem is worse than either.
QuoteFarage is right about a democratic defecit, he's just missing the mark. The EU is more a canary in the coalmine than the problem itself. Nobody looks at it and thinks, well, they represent us...
I think there's two issues why Farage is particularly able to attract votes given the rise in EU migration. One is that it is the EU. No government can do anything to restrict the right of free movement of workers. So any promise by Cameron or Miliband to get tough on immigration is relatively empty - as Farage can point out - and limited - as I would point out - to people who actually meet the criteria to come here in the first place whether on student, business or entrepreneur visas. Again that's a problem of the EU. If people want to reduce the number of immigrants arrive in a country - which is fine and a legitimate thing to do - but aren't able to do that through electing a government there's an issue. Farage is able to take advantage of that feeling and no-one else can.
Secondly is that the EU migrants aren't like previous migrations - in part because they're so easily assimilated. So previously immigration was felt by very local areas. Bradford and Oldham had the BNP and race riots due to tensions between a large, poor white community and a large, poor Asian community and there's similar factors in, say, Barking and Dagenham. EU migrants have gone all over the country - which is great and because they're not ghettoised and have assimilated - but it means problems with immigration, real and perceived, are spread everywhere too.
The best example is Boston, where UKIP expect to do very well in the general election. In 2001 the largest immigrant community in Boston was 250 Germans in a town of 55 000, in 2011 10% of the population is from Eastern Europe and the town's grown to around 65 000. That's a big shift in a short space of time in non-London. So over 50% of the children in the schools are the children of mostly Eastern European immigrants which is part of the pressure on services I mentioned. There are less extreme examples all over the country. So it's easy and accurate to say the people with most of a problem with immigration have the least immigrants, but they've also, probably, seen the largest growth of immigration over the last decade. Even in rural Dorset where my mum and dad live you meet lots of Eastern Europeans and there's no animosity at them or anything like that but I think it's a very new experience for rural Dorset to deal with.
QuoteThis is the same problem as the one that makes news into entertainment and the one that leaves the electorate ignorant of what exchange rates and hedge funds are and do. Our problem is that our voters are ignorant, stupid, lazy and don't care until it is too late. The elite is right about them. They are also right about the elite.
Nonsense. I say this every time but overwhelmingly certainly in the UK and the US (where I know most) voters make the right choice. Generally speaking when it happens populism is happening for a pretty good reason. My own view is that, in a Europe of the Troika, it's happening EU-wide for a good reason too.
Quotenope, wrong answer
It's easy to blame the Muslims but I bet they're not the 25% of people who voted FN. Or for that matter the 15% of Greeks or Hungarians who voted Golden Dawn or Jobbik, or the Poles who voted for a couple of explicit Holocaust denying MEPs.
If you look at that ADL survey of anti-Semitism 26% of French said Jews are hated because of the way they behave. 31% said that Jews only care for their own. 51% said they have too much power in the business world. How many Muslims are there in France?
I hate to go all CdM about this but Europe has a rich and varied history of anti-Semitism. When attitudes like those above exist in such large numbers and more strongly among the young (from what I can see it's not just Muslims instagramming quenelle-selfies). And when, after an attack on a Jewish museum in Belgium, the Israeli PM calls the governments of Europe to discuss anti-Semitism in Europe and only the Belgian Prime Minister returns his call. And European electorates in the midst of economic problems start voting for extreme right parties again I think there's a need to look beyond the Muslim community when we worry about anti-Semitism. And our solution needs to go beyond blaming a relatively small minority group, because I think European Jews may have long enough memories not to be impressed by that.
Jeffrey Goldberg today tweeted about when it would be time for the Jews of Israel and the Jews of America to tell the Jews of Europe to get out. That's not the case now and I think it's over the top. But it's worrying that it's increasingly possible to imagine a time when it might not be.
And to be clear I think a large part of the issue is also on the left where we've let too many anti-Israel sentiments slide to anti-Semitism.
Edit: Also not convinced appearing nearly on the verge of tears is a great response:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nick-clegg/10856642/Nick-Clegg-election-losses-are-gutting-and-heartbreaking.html
Grim:
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/elections-europeennes-2014/20140526.OBS8488/europeennes-qui-a-vote-fn.html?utm_content=bufferc249c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2014, 11:47:49 AM
QuoteIt's also poor spin. Before the election everybody was fighting to be the most sceptical EU party because they saw the polls favour the far right, instead of trying to explain how much you can accomplish with the EU. That of course only made more people sceptical and thus seeking the original sceptics.
The Lib Dems ran a pro-Europe campaign. They went from 11 MEPs to 1.
And what can we accomplish in Europe? The great accomplishment and culmination of Europe so far has been the Euro. The consequence of that has been an economic catastrophe. We've got enforced recessions followed by deflation (remember banks are currently projecting that Spain will have recovered in 2029), weakening of the European welfare state and a nostalgic return for Ireland to the days when the old save their money to send the young to America and Britain.
Environmental regulations, food industry surveillance (sans fleischskandal), financial regulations, anything but just crying wolf, or in this case Romanians.
And yes, there were parties here that talked EU up and had poor results, but the big two here ran a campaign on how to best save Denmark and they were always going to lose that, mostly because it was insincere and because they were going up against the classical "save Denmark" party that is Danish People's Party.
EDIT: And I'm sure the Lib Dems also lost some because of internal national politics, they're in govenment aren't they?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2014, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 26, 2014, 02:14:38 PM
The other thing that blog brought up was the non-consent for the various policies specially on immigration and multiculturalism (I know, he didn't use that word, but I'm using it). A people who see themselves are wards of a custodial political class which can't be replaced due to the end of history; the policies of the left of center being virtually identical to the policies of the left of center; find themselves unable to do anything about how their neighborhood is changing and how their city or village is changing. They can protest the new shopping market but they can't go and protest the family from afghanistan social services moved into old Rosies house after she died.
I don't buy this.
It doesn't match my experience. The immigration that's driven UKIP up the polls and placed that issue firmly in the top two biggest issues facing the country for most people is from Eastern Europe. The issue isn't Afghan refugees on the social services but white, Christian, hard-working, hard-drinking Poles. What's the cultural issue here?
It's a substitutory issue. The issue isn't the poles or the romanians it's the lack of control and ability to affect the the issue. They are targeting the the one group they can without being "raciss". The issue as a whole is that the government is letting "our" society change without our consent. The proximity to the change or the amount of change locally doesn't matter either, the fear of change is the issue.
Whatever effect the immigrants have they are an easy scapegoat (as is the eu itself, since the eu gets blamed for a whole bunch of shit politicians want to do but don't want to pay political capital for). I don't have a job, some furriner stole it. I don't have a girlfriend, some furriner stole my share of our wimmin. etc.etc. Whatever the issue you just need to make a somewhat plausible link from cause to effect. People feel emasculated and out of control. It's not economic, as you point out no prosecutions for paying under the minimum wage. It's visceral, emotional and about the feeling of empowerment of the members of society.
I'm surprised 'Yesterday's man'*is still around, maybe he thinks he deserves another kicking from someone else before he retires?
* LibDem 'leader' Nick Clegg.
Man whose dog did Nick Clegg kick?
Quote from: Tamas on May 26, 2014, 07:40:19 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 26, 2014, 03:24:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 06:27:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
Is it any wonder France's Jews are looking to leave France :(
Jews under Marine Le Pen's FN are not in danger. Le Pen père would troll antisemitically, and that would be all.
As for leaving, some French Jews leave and since Hebrew is a tough language (the'y're French so Anglos excepted they're the worst at languages) they come back.
"they are just trolling" has been the common excuse for dangerous racists since at least a hundred years. It is totally wrong. Even IF the leaders are trolling, a portion of their fanbase aren't. And that is the part of the supporter base with the most conviction, drive, and agression. They are bound to take effective control of a government dominated by their party, exactly for the same reason "trolling" antisemitism is a-ok: because the rest of the supporters are at the very least willing to turn a blind eye toward their antisemitism/racism, otherwise they would not vote on the party.
You should have read the whole post. Marine Le Pen does not troll antisemitically and is quick to point out the difference with her father; père = father. Besides, Cukierman, the head of the most vocal Jewish community organisation (CRIF) actually said to Haaretz than more votes for Le Pen would probably lower muslim anti-semitism and anti-zionism before claiming he was quoted out of context.
http://www.liberation.fr/evenement/2002/04/23/le-president-du-crif-derape-sur-le-vote-fn_401302 (http://www.liberation.fr/evenement/2002/04/23/le-president-du-crif-derape-sur-le-vote-fn_401302). Le Pen likes to troll before election to garner more votes, it also helps the left which can mobilize against the "fascist" threat. Only worked partially this time.
As for the current danger to French Jews, the current Prime minister declared he was eternally linked to Israel (kind of clumsy even on election time he's supposed to be French first and foremost), so colour me sceptical.
The ones who do the violent antisemitism in Western Europe are muslim e.g Merah whose sister tried to join the jihad in Syria earlier this week. Incidentally, Le Pen père trolls against them as well as against the third world in general (Mgr Ebola was the latest troll).
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 26, 2014, 11:47:49 AM
And finally from Art Goldhammer's blog he mentioned a line that in France the far left struggles against the FN because they're seen as the parties of people who are already 'protected' from globalisation - like public sector workers. Which is an interesting thought. It reminds me of what a Tory said over the Labour result in London v the rest of the country: they're no longer the party of the working class, but of the public sector manager.
The whole left is perceived this way actually.
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 08:28:41 PM
Holy shit. I hope this is normal bizarre Euro Parliament voting.
This is the version of bizarre Euro Parliament voting where the Front National wins the election.
FirebladeLePen must be estatic.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 27, 2014, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 08:28:41 PM
Holy shit. I hope this is normal bizarre Euro Parliament voting.
This is the version of bizarre Euro Parliament voting where the Front National wins the election.
FirebladeLePen must be estatic.
Somebody pointed out on ARTE that back in 1979, the French Communist party who was as europhobic AND as anti-immigration as the FN also won 19 seats. The RPR, eurosceptic, had 15 so this anti-EU vote is not exactly new. Back then, Soviet propaganda described the EEC as a mere appendage of US imperialism.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lections_europ%C3%A9ennes_de_1979_en_France (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lections_europ%C3%A9ennes_de_1979_en_France)
Quote from: mongers on May 27, 2014, 05:06:10 PMI'm surprised 'Yesterday's man'*is still around, maybe he thinks he deserves another kicking from someone else before he retires?
* LibDem 'leader' Nick Clegg.
He's very lucky. The Lib Dems for all their cuddly self-image are brutal (especially in local and European elections) and have a record of regicides. They're a very vicious bunch.
My theory is they know that Clegg won't go quietly so he'll cause a lot of damage fighting to hold onto the leadership and they know that there'll be an almighty fight for the leadership (probably Jeremy Browne v Clegg, no?) between the left and continuity Cleggites. And some people (Tim Farron) have an interest in seeing Clegg carry on because their opportunity to run for the leadership will be after the election. If any of those change - either if he decides he'd go willingly or if they decide to crown a leader until the General Election - then Clegg's gone.
QuoteThis is the version of bizarre Euro Parliament voting where the Front National wins the election.
Not like real Presidential elections where the FN get into the run-off and Marine Le Pen's currently leading the polls (so, again, in the run-off).
QuoteAs for the current danger to French Jews, the current Prime minister declared he was eternally linked to Israel (kind of clumsy even on election time he's supposed to be French first and foremost), so colour me sceptical.
The ones who do the violent antisemitism in Western Europe are muslim e.g Merah whose sister tried to join the jihad in Syria earlier this week. Incidentally, Le Pen père trolls against them as well as against the third world in general (Mgr Ebola was the latest troll).
There was a poll of French Jewry recently which said that 75% were considering emigrating. The largest number because they were worried about anti-Semitism. And I've seen a number of polls saying the Jewish community as a whole is very worried about the rise in anti-Semitism. As I say until recently 2013 was the record year of Jews moving from France to Israel, 2014 is already set to smash that record.
I don't think it's about 'danger' I think it's about whether are Jews welcome and comfortable in parts of Europe and I think increasingly, especially in France, they're not.
In part there's absolutely a rise in anti-Semitic attacks/vandalism which does seem to come more from young Muslim men, though not always, I remember the story of a 50-something white, non-Muslim Frenchman who assaulted a Jewish woman and her daughter shouting about 'dirty Jewesses'. Similarly, as I say, the rise of the FN does give legitimate fears to Jews in France. Similarly, obviously they're an extreme minority, but it must be somewhat grim for French Jews to see demonstrations like this on the streets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxsldW-B2m0
And then there's areas of Europe's anti-Islam feeling that just so happen to make the Jews also feel unwelcome - the banning of Halal and Kosher or ceremonial male circumcision. The Jewish community isn't the target, Muslims are, but the sensitivities of Jews are insufficient to give Europe pause.
As I say there's no doubt European Muslims are part of the problem, but I think just blaming is woefully insufficient. This is a growing problem in Europe and the answer isn't the old European problem of blaming a foreign-looking minority.
QuoteSomebody pointed out on ARTE that back in 1979, the French Communist party who was as europhobic AND as anti-immigration as the FN also won 19 seats. The RPR, eurosceptic, had 15 so this anti-EU vote is not exactly new. Back then, Soviet propaganda described the EEC as a mere appendage of US imperialism.
In the UK there's always been a strong anti-EU group within Labour. People forget but in the 70s and the 80s it was Labour that had huge internal rows and splits over Europe. To the very end Tony Benn opposed any moves into Europe as destroying Parliamentary sovereignty and, as he put it, the umbilical cord between the people and lawmakers. For New Labour and Tony Blair pro-Europeanism was a bit part of the modernisation of Labour. See the start of this retrospective of British debates on Europe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT5Bzbi0l90
BBC has maps (they're not as good as the ones they had during the election :() of the different parties votes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27576104
I think Timothy Garton Ash is right (as he often is) on why Juncker is wrong to lead the Commission and it's not just business as usual, also perceptive on difficulty of fixing European unhappiness:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/26/europe-unhappy-european-union
QuoteSimon Hix, an expert on the European parliament, has identified three main schools of unhappiness: north Europeans outside the eurozone (Brits, Danes), north Europeans inside the eurozone (the kind of Germans who secured several seats for the anti-euro party Alternative für Deutschland) and south Europeans inside the eurozone (Greeks, Portuguese).
That leaves the east Europeans, many of whom are unhappy in their own ways. The fact that the Unhappy come at the problem from such different angles makes it harder to address. The Syriza voter's dream for eurozone policy is the Alternative für Deutschland voter's nightmare.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 27, 2014, 05:53:14 PM
Back then, Soviet propaganda described the EEC as a mere appendage of US imperialism.
Whereas now Russian propaganda describes the EU as a mere appendage of US imperialism. Man how times changes.
Quote from: Valmy on May 27, 2014, 10:43:03 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 27, 2014, 05:53:14 PM
Back then, Soviet propaganda described the EEC as a mere appendage of US imperialism.
Whereas now Russian propaganda describes the EU as a mere appendage of US imperialism. Man how times changes.
I think it demonizes the EU more directly nowadays.
Finally saw Miliband for the first time on that horrific History Channel documentary. Dude has a nice thinly cropped jewfro.
Incidentally Hungarian politics does look ever more Russian. From Jobbik with the words 'you choose!':
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-ec.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2F2014-05%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr02%2F27%2F15%2Fenhanced-5784-1401218544-14.jpg&hash=c5108fd43a966ecb86f0a1ac494934cd7f952854)
:blink: I'd mos def vote the one on the right. No question.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 27, 2014, 05:36:29 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 26, 2014, 07:40:19 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 26, 2014, 03:24:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 06:27:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 25, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
According to the BBC 30% of young voters in France voted FN :blink: :bleeding:
Again far-right picking up votes in old Socialist areas :(
Is it any wonder France's Jews are looking to leave France :(
Jews under Marine Le Pen's FN are not in danger. Le Pen père would troll antisemitically, and that would be all.
As for leaving, some French Jews leave and since Hebrew is a tough language (the'y're French so Anglos excepted they're the worst at languages) they come back.
"they are just trolling" has been the common excuse for dangerous racists since at least a hundred years. It is totally wrong. Even IF the leaders are trolling, a portion of their fanbase aren't. And that is the part of the supporter base with the most conviction, drive, and agression. They are bound to take effective control of a government dominated by their party, exactly for the same reason "trolling" antisemitism is a-ok: because the rest of the supporters are at the very least willing to turn a blind eye toward their antisemitism/racism, otherwise they would not vote on the party.
You should have read the whole post. Marine Le Pen does not troll antisemitically and is quick to point out the difference with her father; père = father. Besides, Cukierman, the head of the most vocal Jewish community organisation (CRIF) actually said to Haaretz than more votes for Le Pen would probably lower muslim anti-semitism and anti-zionism before claiming he was quoted out of context.
http://www.liberation.fr/evenement/2002/04/23/le-president-du-crif-derape-sur-le-vote-fn_401302 (http://www.liberation.fr/evenement/2002/04/23/le-president-du-crif-derape-sur-le-vote-fn_401302). Le Pen likes to troll before election to garner more votes, it also helps the left which can mobilize against the "fascist" threat. Only worked partially this time.
As for the current danger to French Jews, the current Prime minister declared he was eternally linked to Israel (kind of clumsy even on election time he's supposed to be French first and foremost), so colour me sceptical.
The ones who do the violent antisemitism in Western Europe are muslim e.g Merah whose sister tried to join the jihad in Syria earlier this week. Incidentally, Le Pen père trolls against them as well as against the third world in general (Mgr Ebola was the latest troll).
You kind of ignored my entire post. My entire point was that "trolling during elections to garner votes" while perfectly ok for you apparently, is actually very dangerous because it makes anti-Semitism and racism acceptable. I mean, just look at what you are writing: "well she does spur hate at given groups of French citizens at times, but doesn't matter, she is doing it to increase her influence!"
Quote from: Tamas on May 28, 2014, 03:55:59 AM
You kind of ignored my entire post. My entire point was that "trolling during elections to garner votes" while perfectly ok for you apparently, is actually very dangerous because it makes anti-Semitism and racism acceptable. I mean, just look at what you are writing: "well she does spur hate at given groups of French citizens at times, but doesn't matter, she is doing it to increase her influence!"
Start by reading mine. I said helped both the FN AND the left (so-called anti-racists) to mobilise for elections. The anti-racist mobilisation helped the PS on elections to deflect attacks on their poor economic record, something you as a libertarian should take into account. This is the archetypal smokescreen of the French left. That trolling helped the PS for years, it's not working anymore. The FN has always been used by the PS to weaken the right-wing. It worked but the PS was also weakened since no workers vote them anymore. Politically, I always thought publicising these Le Pen trolls was mistake for the above mentioned reasons.
Btw, Marine Le Pen does not troll, you write she, I mentioned Le Pen father = he. Read before putting words into my mouth.
The latest Le Pen troll (FATHER) was against the Third world and not some group of French citizens.
As for the Jews, some of them vote for Le Pen, mainly the Pied-Noirs (former French settlers in Algeria) as well as some muslims, the former French Army auxiliaries in Algeria (harkis) which were abandoned in large numbers by. For the antisemitic young muslim of the banlieue, harki is the only insult worse than Jew and if being Jewish is risky, then it's even riskier to be harki or son of harkis.
The OAS, matrix of the FN accepted Jews, even Muslims as long as they were pro-French Algeria die-hards and willing to go for full terrorism and gangsterism, against the French Army as well.
Marine Le Pen's FN is not Jobbik so stop projecting your Hungarian Weltanschaaung on a situation you don't know or understand, due to a partial reading of English sources and a non-existant reading of French sources.
Jean-Marie's latest troll
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/couacs/2014/05/21/25005-20140521ARTFIG00054-monseigneur-ebola-la-solution-de-jean-marie-le-pen-face-a-l-immigration.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/couacs/2014/05/21/25005-20140521ARTFIG00054-monseigneur-ebola-la-solution-de-jean-marie-le-pen-face-a-l-immigration.php)
Ebola as a solution to (excessive) third world immigration.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck
Quote from: Tamas on May 28, 2014, 04:33:21 AM
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck
You mean like UKIP = FN = Jobbik ?
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 28, 2014, 04:59:36 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 28, 2014, 04:33:21 AM
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck
You mean like UKIP = FN = Jobbik ?
Yes.
Quote from: Tamas on May 28, 2014, 05:00:36 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 28, 2014, 04:59:36 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 28, 2014, 04:33:21 AM
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck
You mean like UKIP = FN = Jobbik ?
Yes.
Well, at least you're consistent. :) I disagree obviously though I think UKIP and FN are closer than they want to admit. Thing is, I can see a positive role for the UKIP, in a useful idiot way i.e getting rid of the obstructionist Brits, whereas I don't see such a positive for the FN. Asking good questions at best about immigration (without providing few serious answers of course) when the left made any discussion of immigration taboo has been done and their economic platform is hardly consistent. They are consistently anti-EU.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 27, 2014, 10:36:52 PM
In part there's absolutely a rise in anti-Semitic attacks/vandalism which does seem to come more from young Muslim men, though not always, I remember the story of a 50-something white, non-Muslim Frenchman who assaulted a Jewish woman and her daughter shouting about 'dirty Jewesses'. Similarly, as I say, the rise of the FN does give legitimate fears to Jews in France. Similarly, obviously they're an extreme minority, but it must be somewhat grim for French Jews to see demonstrations like this on the streets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxsldW-B2m0
Not the FN as you pointed out.
Quote
I remember the story of a 50-something white, non-Muslim Frenchman who assaulted a Jewish woman and her daughter shouting about 'dirty Jewesses'.
And then there's areas of Europe's anti-Islam feeling that just so happen to make the Jews also feel unwelcome - the banning of Halal and Kosher or ceremonial male circumcision. The Jewish community isn't the target, Muslims are, but the sensitivities of Jews are insufficient to give Europe pause.
Link for this story?
Not in France. In France, in Elsaß-Mosel, some PS retard (Straßburg mayor and senator) justified giving halal meat for multiculti reasons while denying fish on Fridays to Christians for "laïcité" reasons. Elsaßers and Laïcité...
"Nous servons de la viande halal par respect pour la diversité, mais pas de poisson le vendredi par respect pour la laïcité."
http://www.causeur.fr/le-catholique-voila-lennemi-9489.html (http://www.causeur.fr/le-catholique-voila-lennemi-9489.html)
Nowadays, it's vegetarian meals when kids who are growing need animal proteines :rolleyes:
Boy crying wolf, when real issues are ignored.
Btw, Fish is hallal :D
Quote
As I say there's no doubt European Muslims are part of the problem, but I think just blaming is woefully insufficient. This is a growing problem in Europe and the answer isn't the old European problem of blaming a foreign-looking minority.
Even if it's true?
Quote
I think Timothy Garton Ash is right (as he often is) on why Juncker is wrong to lead the Commission and it's not just business as usual, also perceptive on difficulty of fixing European unhappiness:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/26/europe-unhappy-european-union
Ash is wrong in saying that the French participation is significantly higher though. Four more percentage points is good but not significant but that's the only quibble I have with this blog post.
Quote from: derspiess on May 27, 2014, 11:17:45 PM
Finally saw Miliband for the first time on that horrific History Channel documentary. Dude has a nice thinly cropped jewfro.
That was his brother.
Yes, I was watching the show too. :blush:
I wonder if Labour might finally win in the wealthy part of Northumberland with ukip siphon ing off the Tory vote...
Quote from: Liep on May 25, 2014, 05:48:20 PM
Yellow is nationalists, only the two big cities went left. Scattered blue are farmers or rich ghettos.
Even Odense went nationalist? Surprising.
Well, we know which way Duke voted.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on May 28, 2014, 11:19:50 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 25, 2014, 05:48:20 PM
Yellow is nationalists, only the two big cities went left. Scattered blue are farmers or rich ghettos.
Even Odense went nationalist? Surprising.
I don't know how H. C. Andersen would've responded, with indifference I expect.
Quote from: Liep on May 28, 2014, 12:28:30 PM
I don't know how H. C. Andersen would've responded,
He'd write a story about it:
The Little Nationalist Princess
"Oh what a glorious winter's day," thought the little princess. She stood out upon her balcony overlooking the square. It was one of the first snowfalls in which snow seems to hang in the air until it is blown about by the breeze's merry whim. The little princess smiled as she looked out, but her smile faded upon gazing down. There were so many people in the square, and it was a Wednesday afternoon.
"Mother," she cried as she ran back into her chambers. She kept calling for her mother as she ran through the palace until she came to the throne room. There her mother was sitting, as she was usually. She was a tall, regal woman and she wore a golden crown.
"Goodness, dear," said her mother, "How many times have I told you not to run about the palace and not to shout. It is unbecoming of a princess."
"I am sorry, mother, dear," said the little princess. She was constantly being scolded for behavior unbecoming of a princess.
"Oh, it shall have to do, but please be more lady like in the future; now what were you raising such a ruckus about?" Truth be told the little princess raised more ruckuses than most farmers raised crops; but the queen was always patient with her.
"Oh, dear mother, I saw so many people out in the square today."
"Yes, dear, those are my subjects."
"But why aren't your subjects at work?"
"There is no work, dear," replied the queen. "The Muslims have taken all the jobs."
"All of them?"
"Yes, all of them," said the queen.
"There are no more jobs at the butter churns, the Lego factory or the Tuborg Brewery?"
"No dear, the Muslims do all that now."
"And men no longer fish for herring?"
"No, dear, the Muslims do that as well."
"And no one is at the butter cookie factory?"
"No one but the Muslims."
"But what do the people do now?" the little princess asked.
"They stay at home and collect welfare," said the Queen, "Except when they're out walking in the middle of the day."
"How dreadful, what are we to do mother?"
"Nothing," the Queen replied.
"Nothing?"
"Immigration makes our nation stronger, dear."
"But how can it if the people have no jobs?"
"The matter is closed, dear, immigration is good for everyone and that is final."
The little princess was greatly upset by this. She pouted, she stamped her foot, and she barely touched her dinner; despite it being her favorite, poached herring. None of this had the slightest impact though, for her mother was resolute and unperturbed. In a huff and in a fury the little princess stormed off to bed that night.
The world always seems rosier in the morning, no matter how late that morning may come in the winter. The little princess felt better as she awoke on her enormous canopied bed. Perhaps her tantrum had been unjust, she reflected as she stretched. Her mother often knew what was best for her and for the nation. She resolved to apologize and marched down the stairs to the throne room. She entered, filled with contrition, but that was quickly replaced with shock, for the woman sitting on the throne was not her mother, not at all. She was a dark skinned woman who wore a headscarf under her crown.
"Where is my mother?" asked the little princess.
"She's been deposed."
"Deposed?"
"That means she's no longer queen."
"But why?" asked the little princess, quite on the verge of tears.
"As a Muslim I could do the job of queen for much less than your mother. So now I'm queen."
"But what's to become of my mother?" asked the little princess.
"Why she's to stay at home and collect unemployment, just like everyone else," said the new queen.
"Am I to be replaced as well?" asked the little princess.
"Of course not, 'Princess' isn't a job. All you do is smile and wear frilly dresses."
That was of some relief to the little princess, for she didn't know whether or not one could afford frilly dresses when living on welfare.
"Now run along, princess" said the new queen, "It's time for your lessons."
The little princess went off with excitement. She didn't like all her lessons; math was hard. Drawing, though, was fun and she loved Danish literature. As she got to her lesson room and saw that it had been completely redecorated. There was no longer an easel, a piano, or a table and chairs. Instead there was a low divan and some oriental rugs upon the floor. Her tutor was different as well.
"Good morning princess," he said.
"Good morning, is it time for my drawing lesson?" she asked with great hope.
"No, the queen has forbidden drawing, lest you draw a person."
"But I like to draw people," objected the little princess, "And horses too."
"That is idolatrous and has been forbidden."
"Are horses idolatrous too?"
"It' best not to take chances," said the tutor.
"And the museums with all the pictures of people and horses?"
"Those are to be closed."
"I see," said the little princess, "What shall I do instead?"
"Why you must memorize the Koran."
"What's a Koran?" asked the little princess.
"What's a Koran?" the tutor repeated in disbelief, "Why it's the holy book of Islam."
"Why do I need to memorize it?" asked the little princess.
"In order to call people to prayer, of course."
"But in Denmark we use church bells to call people to prayer."
"Not any more all the church bell ringers were replaced by Muslims and now they just call people to prayer with the Koran."
The little princess had little luck memorizing the Koran. All those words made no sense to her, for they were in Arabic. At the end of the day all she could do was to recite the first line and that she got wrong half the time. She felt stupid and exhausted as the dinner bell rang. She perked upon hearing that. Tonight they would have herring. In truth every night they had herring at the palace, but the little princess loved herring. She rushed from the divan to wash her hands. Then she raced to the table only to find that there was no herring. Instead there was a roast lamb on the table and couscous. The queen sat at the head of the table where her mother used to sit.
"Where is the herring?" asked the little princess.
"All of our cooks were replaced by Muslims," answered the queen, "And none of them know how to cook herring. They do know how to make couscous, though."
"But I love herring."
"Speaking of love," said the queen, "I have a wonderful opportunity for you. The King of Algeria has offered to make you his fourth wife."
"Are all his other wives dead?" asked the little princess, for she had heard the story of Bluebeard.
"Of course not, they're all still alive and married to him."
"But a man can only have one wife at a time," objected the little princess.
"That's ridiculous every man can have four wives."
"But I want a husband of my own," said the little princess.
"Don't be obstinate, child," said the queen, "Men always love their fourth wife the most."
"I won't do it," howled the little princess, "I won't marry him."
"If you disobey your mother you shall be thrown from the minaret like an adulteress," said the queen.
"But capital punishment is illegal in Denmark," said the little princess.
"Not anymore, all the judges are Muslims so now we use the Sharia."
The little princess hung her head and wept bitter tears. She climbed the stairs to her room and stood out on the balcony. There she gave a plaintive wail. Heartbroken and miserable she cried out her despair.
"Why what is wrong," said a man standing in the square.
"All the world has gone mad and to me Denmark is a prison," said the little princess. "Now the Muslims do everything, and there is no more herring for dinner, no more drawing classes and men can have more wives than they know what to do with."
"But immigration is better for everyone," said the man, a crowd was beginning to gather around him.
"Then why are there no more church bells, or paintings or jobs for Danes?"
"Well there are other benefits," said another woman in the crowd.
"But there's not," said the little princess. "All we have is welfare. We've all become no better those people who live in Christiania and don't work."
"She's right," said the first man, "We've been very, very foolish."
"But what can we do?" asked another.
"Why tomorrow is the European election. We can vote in the Danish People's Party," said the man.
"But the Muslim MPs will work for less," said another man.
"Our people are more important than money," said the little princess. Such a notion rankles the heart of many. Once heresies came in all shapes and sizes, today they are few and far between. To say there are more important things than money; why that is worse than a heresy, worse than witchcraft and worse than devil-worship. Whole departments of economists would line up to stone anyone who said such a thing; yet there must not have been a single economist in the entire mob for everyone cheered at her words.
The Danish People's Party picked up the bulk of the seats in the European Parliament and they, with their fellow Europsceptics, restricted immigration and threw the Muslims out. The people went back to their jobs in the breweries, at their churns and in the Lego factory. The Queen was back on her throne and the little princess went back to her drawings. Don't fret about the Muslims, though, they ended up okay. They all moved to France, for no one can tell the French what to do, not even the European Parliament. There the Muslims stay at home all day and collect welfare.
;)
Awwww I love a happy ending.
No more lamb :(
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 28, 2014, 06:38:07 AM
Yes, I was watching the show too. :blush:
It's new levels of bad. I mean the Stalin Ape Soldier show had higher standards.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 28, 2014, 12:13:38 PM
Well, we know which way Duke voted.
LULZ
Which way did I vote?
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 28, 2014, 04:11:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 28, 2014, 12:13:38 PM
Well, we know which way Duke voted.
LULZ
Which way did I vote?
For the António de Oliveira Salazar Resurrection Party
Quote from: Valmy on May 28, 2014, 04:48:17 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 28, 2014, 04:11:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 28, 2014, 12:13:38 PM
Well, we know which way Duke voted.
LULZ
Which way did I vote?
For the António de Oliveira Salazar Resurrection Party
That's the CDS-PP right?
Only Clandestino and Martim Silva will understand this one.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 28, 2014, 04:38:17 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 28, 2014, 04:11:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 28, 2014, 12:13:38 PM
Well, we know which way Duke voted.
LULZ
Which way did I vote?
Do you like lamb?
Not my fave but given the choice with a vegetarian diet... Of course, alone it is so-so, so wine helps a lot. Let's say a Dão wine for Valmy. :)