I had an interesting conversation with Riley the other day that's kind of disturbed me.
She was talking about how she just can't win with boys her age. (She's almost 15, and in the 9th grade.) If she's nice to them, she's a bitch for leading them on when she doesn't like them. If she's not nice to them, she's a bitch for not being nice. The conversation continued to the fact that it just gets worse when the boys get older.
You're a cocktease if you don't have sex after making out for X amount of time (or if, god forbid, you actually let them touch your tatas :o ), but if you don't make out with them (or let them touch your tatas), you're a frigid bitch. God forbid you actually have sex with them - and worse, enjoy it! - because then you're just a slut and a whore.
Basically, what we both learned in this conversation is that teenage boys are horrible, horrible creatures. This is how high school girls get into trouble. They really are in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation with these guys. No matter what she does, Riley will be a bitch/slut/whore/frigid bitch.
I really thought we'd be past this 30 years after I was in high school, but no, it's just as bad as ever. Thankfully, Riley is a lot like her mother and thinks they can all go to hell (just like I did), but it sucks that this is still happening.
What about high school did you hope would change, but clearly hasn't? What did you guys have to deal with that put you in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation?
Inquiring minds and all that. :)
The problem with high school is that it is full of teenagers. Until that is fixed, there isn't going to be much change.
Maybe it was just different in my day, but my high school (for all its faults) did not have that dynamic. But I guess if you have to choose a label, "frigid bitch" carries less baggage.
"Tatas" is a terrible euphemism for tits. Just say breasts.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
What about high school did you hope would change, but clearly hasn't? What did you guys have to deal with that put you in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation?
Inquiring minds and all that. :)
High school was a lot of fun. I wouldnt want to change much of what happened. Well except that I probably should have spent less time in the gym and more time with the books but it all worked out pretty well in the end.
As for your daughter's experience, it seems pretty extreme to me. Can't relate either in terms of my own high school days or the experience of my boys now.
Yeah, I'm sure slut-shaming is a predominately male problem.
Quote from: PRC on April 09, 2014, 11:49:14 AM
"Tatas" is a terrible euphemism for tits. Just say breasts.
I don't have a problem with it. It's kind of a nice, lighthearted term.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 12:08:56 PM
Yeah, I'm sure slut-shaming is a predominately male problem.
Of course. But I didnt see it happening the way Meri describes it when I was in high school and the experience of my boys is quite different than what she is describing.
Meh. I know plenty of guys that won't go around badmouthing girls. They don't now, they didn't then.
If a nice guy is what you want, a nice guy is what you have to go for. Meri, your daughter might not be, but you are certainly old enough to have figured this out by yourself by now.
Also, at least she's desired, and not everyone (both boys and girls) are lucky enough to deal with sour grapes from others because no one wanted them in the first place. Her situation is better than the alternative, although it would take superior insight to realize it, so I don't blame her if she doesn't.
Quote from: CCOf course. But I didnt see it happening the way Meri describes it when I was in high school and the experience of my boys is quite different than what she is describing.
I was being sarcastic to Meri; my experience is that slut-shaming is primarily a means of social control undertaken by women rather than by men. (Though men can be collaborators.)
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 11:45:55 AM
Maybe it was just different in my day, but my high school (for all its faults) did not have that dynamic.
My high school definitely did not have that dynamic.
But then again, it was an all-boys school. :sleep:
Do guys really use that kind of language directly to the girl's face? To the extent I can remember people using that kind of language, it was usually just in some kind of ignorant "consolation" to the guy. 'Your girlfriend dumped you to go out with some other guy? Forget her, she's just a whore anyways.' (Not that I ever used that kind of language)
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:12:43 PM
Of course. But I didnt see it happening the way Meri describes it when I was in high school and the experience of my boys is quite different than what she is describing.
Same here, but I suppose it differs by school environment and maybe different social circles within each school.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 12:18:07 PM
Also, at least she's desired, and not everyone (both boys and girls) are lucky enough to deal with sour grapes from others because no one wanted them in the first place. Her situation is better than the alternative, although it would take superior insight to realize it, so I don't blame her if she doesn't.
Quote from: CCOf course. But I didnt see it happening the way Meri describes it when I was in high school and the experience of my boys is quite different than what she is describing.
I was being sarcastic to Meri; my experience is that slut-shaming is primarily a means of social control undertaken by women rather than by men. (Though men can be collaborators.)
I dont know about that. When I was in high school the few girls who would have sex with anyone were well known as "sluts".
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 12:22:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:12:43 PM
Of course. But I didnt see it happening the way Meri describes it when I was in high school and the experience of my boys is quite different than what she is describing.
Same here, but I suppose it differs by school environment and maybe different social circles within each school.
Agreed
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:22:35 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 12:18:07 PM
Also, at least she's desired, and not everyone (both boys and girls) are lucky enough to deal with sour grapes from others because no one wanted them in the first place. Her situation is better than the alternative, although it would take superior insight to realize it, so I don't blame her if she doesn't.
Quote from: CCOf course. But I didnt see it happening the way Meri describes it when I was in high school and the experience of my boys is quite different than what she is describing.
I was being sarcastic to Meri; my experience is that slut-shaming is primarily a means of social control undertaken by women rather than by men. (Though men can be collaborators.)
I dont know about that. When I was in high school the few girls who would have sex with anyone were well known as "sluts".
I never understood that dynamic, even as a teenager.
If I want women to sleep with me, then surely it's a bad idea to discourage that behaviour by calling them "sluts"? :unsure:
I think it used to be like that when pair-bonding had not yet been replaced by a war of all against all.
But imo it's also driven at least equally by jealousy and the inborn understanding of economics women possess. I hear a lot more specific utterances of the word "slut" and "whore" from women than I do from men, and always have. (I reckon that "slut" and "whore" are more readily used as insults of general purpose by men, largely interchangeable with "bitch," at a lower level of escalation than "cunt." I think for women the words tend to have more specific meaning and are used so.)
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2014, 12:23:46 PM
If I want women to sleep with me, then surely it's a bad idea to discourage that behaviour by calling them "sluts"? :unsure:
Well, to play devil's advocate, you may also want to discourage the women that sleep with you from sleeping with someone else. To what extent this concerns boys in high school is debatable. I think it's lower than in later life.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:22:35 PM
I dont know about that. When I was in high school the few girls who would have sex with anyone were well known as "sluts".
In my high school ('88-'91) there were several girls known to have put out but as long as they weren't with a different guy every week, they did not receive the 'slut' label. I can only really think of a couple who were known as sluts, though oddly nobody could ever produce much evidence. One girl was named Nicole and lots of people called her "Nicole the Hole" but the only piece of evidence anyone could ever cite was a picture in the yearbook of her demonstrating her flexibility by putting her ankle behind her head.
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2014, 12:23:46 PM
If I want women to sleep with me, then surely it's a bad idea to discourage that behaviour by calling them "sluts"? :unsure:
Fair point if your only choice was to have sex with the girl that would the next night have sex with whoever else was available. But, given a choice, the girl who would be commited to a more significant relationship would be preferable. And if you had such a choice then knowing which girl was which was important information to make that choice.
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:22:35 PM
I dont know about that. When I was in high school the few girls who would have sex with anyone were well known as "sluts".
In my high school ('88-'91) there were several girls known to have put out but as long as they weren't with a different guy every week, they did not receive the 'slut' label. I can only really think of a couple who were known as sluts, though oddly nobody could ever produce much evidence. One girl was named Nicole and lots of people called her "Nicole the Hole" but the only piece of evidence anyone could ever cite was a picture in the yearbook of her demonstrating her flexibility by putting her ankle behind her head.
I had the same experience back in the day. The one in our school was Vicky. Her nickname was Sticky. There was lots of evidence for why she earned that nickname.
Ah yes, high school. I have fond memories of how much I hated it. It's an experience totally wasted on such young hooligans as teens are at that age. What a horror show to put so many monsters and social misfits together in one place and let havoc ensue. Kids should first be sent to a mandatory six months or year in boot camp and military training and discipline, then sent to high school. Then they'll have the proper attitude, respect and discipline to actually be acceptable. :cool:
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2014, 12:20:46 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 11:45:55 AM
Maybe it was just different in my day, but my high school (for all its faults) did not have that dynamic.
My high school definitely did not have that dynamic.
But then again, it was an all-boys school. :sleep:
It is well-known that guys have sex without shame. :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:33:50 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:22:35 PM
I dont know about that. When I was in high school the few girls who would have sex with anyone were well known as "sluts".
In my high school ('88-'91) there were several girls known to have put out but as long as they weren't with a different guy every week, they did not receive the 'slut' label. I can only really think of a couple who were known as sluts, though oddly nobody could ever produce much evidence. One girl was named Nicole and lots of people called her "Nicole the Hole" but the only piece of evidence anyone could ever cite was a picture in the yearbook of her demonstrating her flexibility by putting her ankle behind her head.
I had the same experience back in the day. The one in our school was Vicky. Her nickname was Sticky. There was lots of evidence for why she earned that nickname.
There were none at my school. I feel cheated now. :(
Though I knew one later who was going out with 4 guys at the same time. Nobody called her anything, however. At least not in front of me. The night the four guys made an appearance in the same pub was fairly entertaining.
In my social circle in HS, the notion that women were to be shamed for sex was an absurdity.
Selfishness with drugs was the issue for shaming (men and women alike), not sex.
God I wish I'd had sex in high school. I'd probably be governor by now.
Quote from: Malthus on April 09, 2014, 12:41:19 PM
In my social circle in HS, the notion that women were to be shamed for sex was an absurdity.
Selfishness with drugs was the issue for shaming (men and women alike), not sex.
I suspect you were too stoned to notice :P
I generally don't think about highschool. I probably would have changed almost everything particularly the multitude of classrooms without windows. :D
I was very respectful toward girls in high school. :)
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2014, 12:56:05 PM
I was very respectful toward girls in high school. :)
I was too. I didn't figure out that didn't work until much later. :blush:
:hug: :blush:
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:04:19 PM
As for your daughter's experience, it seems pretty extreme to me. Can't relate either in terms of my own high school days or the experience of my boys now.
I haven't asked my boys yet. I'll let you know what they say. :)
That being said, I'm pretty certain that my youngest son doesn't think like that, though he has friends who do. The elder two wouldn't have been as open about it, if they thought it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:45:49 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 09, 2014, 12:41:19 PM
In my social circle in HS, the notion that women were to be shamed for sex was an absurdity.
Selfishness with drugs was the issue for shaming (men and women alike), not sex.
I suspect you were too stoned to notice :P
Well, there *was* that. :lol:
But remember how I met my best friend? That sort of meeting would be unlikely in a social group that had a strong anti-female-sex taboo, where women feared being labelled a "slut". ;)
American high school: like in the movies?
Quote from: Iormlund on April 09, 2014, 12:57:34 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2014, 12:56:05 PM
I was very respectful toward girls in high school. :)
I was too. I didn't figure out that didn't work until much later. :blush:
:lol:
I do remember once in a bar when a pretty hott girl was complaining about how guys would tell their friends lies if she went with them, call her slut and such.
Then she proceeded to hook up with the one guy in the whole gang that would do exactly that (there was another asshole, but he wasn't there that night). :rolleyes:
Wow, am I glad I don't teach in that high school! :lol:
I suppose that there must be schools full of such social rejects as the school Meri's daughter goes to, but I've not taught at one or had a student transfer from or to one. I can assure Meri that her experience, and that of her daughter, is not universal.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
I had an interesting conversation with Riley the other day that's kind of disturbed me.
She was talking about how she just can't win with boys her age. (She's almost 15, and in the 9th grade.) If she's nice to them, she's a bitch for leading them on when she doesn't like them. If she's not nice to them, she's a bitch for not being nice. The conversation continued to the fact that it just gets worse when the boys get older.
You're a cocktease if you don't have sex after making out for X amount of time (or if, god forbid, you actually let them touch your tatas :o ), but if you don't make out with them (or let them touch your tatas), you're a frigid bitch. God forbid you actually have sex with them - and worse, enjoy it! - because then you're just a slut and a whore.
Basically, what we both learned in this conversation is that teenage boys are horrible, horrible creatures. This is how high school girls get into trouble. They really are in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation with these guys. No matter what she does, Riley will be a bitch/slut/whore/frigid bitch.
I really thought we'd be past this 30 years after I was in high school, but no, it's just as bad as ever. Thankfully, Riley is a lot like her mother and thinks they can all go to hell (just like I did), but it sucks that this is still happening.
What about high school did you hope would change, but clearly hasn't? What did you guys have to deal with that put you in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation?
Inquiring minds and all that. :)
:hmm: I guess another thing that didn't change is teenage girls being over-dramatic and hyperbolic.
I never heard anything about either slut or frigid bitch in high school. If I had it would have struck me as being incredibly immature for our age. Of course I went to an elite high school where the garbage had already been weeded out.
Quote from: Iormlund on April 09, 2014, 12:57:34 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2014, 12:56:05 PM
I was very respectful toward girls in high school. :)
I was too. I didn't figure out that didn't work until much later. :blush:
I dont know about that either. Worked quite well for me. :)
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on April 09, 2014, 12:57:34 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2014, 12:56:05 PM
I was very respectful toward girls in high school. :)
I was too. I didn't figure out that didn't work until much later. :blush:
I dont know about that either. Worked quite well for me. :)
Yeah, but you are freakishly tall. My only asset is that I know how to dance, and I hadn't figured out that by then either. :P
The only thing about me is the way that I walk.
Quote from: Iormlund on April 09, 2014, 01:32:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on April 09, 2014, 12:57:34 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2014, 12:56:05 PM
I was very respectful toward girls in high school. :)
I was too. I didn't figure out that didn't work until much later. :blush:
I dont know about that either. Worked quite well for me. :)
Yeah, but you are freakishly tall. My only asset is that I know how to dance, and I hadn't figured out that by then either. :P
Heh, I'll go with my freakish buddy CC on this one - though I'll say this: being respectful isn't going to get you laid in and of itself, it is more of a basic precondition for getting laid, like bathing regularly. :D Women still have to have some *positive* reason to be attracted to you, not just a lack of negative reasons to avoid you.
I think if Riley pays attention, she's only talking about the boys she's attracted to. The nice ones are the ones she never even considers and has never wasted a firing synapse thinking about.
;)
I don't remember much of High school but this dynamic only happens to popular kids.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 09, 2014, 01:02:03 PM
American high school: like in the movies?
Yes I was thinking that to.
Do those high school experiences/social dynamics exist outside movies and if so, how common are those and are they that extreme?
Just to clarify for us Euro/Brits, this is mandatory school for 14-18 year olds ?
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 09, 2014, 01:02:03 PM
American high school: like in the movies?
Kind of. The cliqueness is very intense in Middle School and early on in High School, but begins to break down in Junior and Senior, and even a bit in Sophomore year. It is less of a caste system than the most absurd movies suggest.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 09, 2014, 02:03:08 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 09, 2014, 01:02:03 PM
American high school: like in the movies?
Kind of. The cliqueness is very intense in Middle School and early on in High School, but begins to break down in Junior and Senior, and even a bit in Sophomore year. It is less of a caste system than the most absurd movies suggest.
There were definitely separate groups in our high school but there was a lot of easy movement between them. We had the Jocks, the Stoners, the Geeks etc. I crossed all boundaries very easily as an over 6 foot athlete who played D&D and partied hard. :D
Teenage girl speak:
"All the boys" = "All the boys I'm attracted to"
"I want a good boy" = "I want a bad boy but without the consequences"
:P
Quote from: Iormlund on April 09, 2014, 12:15:45 PM
Meh. I know plenty of guys that won't go around badmouthing girls. They don't now, they didn't then.
If a nice guy is what you want, a nice guy is what you have to go for. Meri, your daughter might not be, but you are certainly old enough to have figured this out by yourself by now.
Actually, a friend and I were talking about this. There are assholes and there are nice guys across all of the cliques in high school. The problem is that the assholes are very free with their opinions regarding girls, while the nice guys are, well, nice about it, and don't really say a lot about it one way or the other. So, it
seems as if all of the boys are assholes when you're in the midst of it.
As for the "old enough to figure this out for myself", obviously I have, as I married a Canadian. ;)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 09, 2014, 01:50:40 PM
I think if Riley pays attention, she's only talking about the boys she's attracted to. The nice ones are the ones she never even considers and has never wasted a firing synapse thinking about.
;)
The boys who are spilling this to her aren't guys that she's attracted to, which is part of the problem. They're mad that she doesn't like them.
Her last boyfriend was very much a "nice guy", and they had a long discussion about how neither of them were ready for sex. Then he dumped her because she was more like his best friend than a girlfriend.
Stupidity crosses the sexes. :P
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 02:22:31 PM
The boys who are spilling this to her aren't guys that she's attracted to, which is part of the problem. They're mad that she doesn't like them.
Yeah I would take that particular information with a grain of salt then.
Has anyone accused her of being bossy yet?
And Spicy drops a turd in the punchbowl
SHUT UP
How bossy
American high school is more segregated along socioeconomic lines than the movies -- where everyone is rich, of course, except for the one "poor" outsider (actually from an upper-middle class background) who wins everyone over by the end of the story -- would show you.
My high school had a pretty clear socioeconomic divide. The poor kids were dirt poor, smelled bad, always got in fights, never participated in athletics, had long, ratty hair, listened to RATT and other horrible hair bands, smoked, and had zero interest in academics. The rest of us were mostly middle class with a few upper middle class sprinkled in. Huge separation between the two major groups. There were some subgroups but they were fairly fluid.
Almost everyone was white, so there was no racial or ethnic differences to come into play.
In before Seedy: GRAY PRIMER CAMARO
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 02:44:41 PM
My high school had a pretty clear socioeconomic divide. The poor kids were dirt poor, smelled bad, always got in fights, never participated in athletics, had long, ratty hair, listened to RATT and other horrible hair bands, smoked, and had zero interest in academics. The rest of us were mostly middle class with a few upper middle class sprinkled in. Huge separation between the two major groups. There were some subgroups but they were fairly fluid.
Almost everyone was white, so there was no racial or ethnic differences to come into play.
I had the advantage that everyone was basically poor except for the children of the few families that owned businesses in town. That group of "rich kids" was too small to really be a group unto themselves so an economic divide wasnt really possible. There was this one kid who's father was a professor though....
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 02:50:00 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 02:44:41 PM
My high school had a pretty clear socioeconomic divide. The poor kids were dirt poor, smelled bad, always got in fights, never participated in athletics, had long, ratty hair, listened to RATT and other horrible hair bands, smoked, and had zero interest in academics. The rest of us were mostly middle class with a few upper middle class sprinkled in. Huge separation between the two major groups. There were some subgroups but they were fairly fluid.
Almost everyone was white, so there was no racial or ethnic differences to come into play.
I had the advantage that everyone was basically poor except for the children of the few families that owned businesses in town. That group of "rich kids" was too small to really be a group unto themselves so an economic divide wasnt really possible. There was this one kid who's father was a professor though....
Well, to be fair, gigantic mutants sort of transcend socio-economic classification ... :D
My school dynamic was odd because the missionary kids were poor as dirt but had been around forever, whereas the MNC and embassy kids rotated in and out every two years or so. So money didn't equate to status.
There were still gradations of wealth status within the missionary kids however. Me and my friends made fun of the kids whose pants came down to the middle of their shins and those who ate ramen noodles twice a day.
At my school kids were middle to upper middle class, well behaved and academically ambitious.
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 02:44:41 PM
My high school had a pretty clear socioeconomic divide. The poor kids were dirt poor, smelled bad, always got in fights, never participated in athletics, had long, ratty hair, listened to RATT and other horrible hair bands, smoked, and had zero interest in academics. The rest of us were mostly middle class with a few upper middle class sprinkled in. Huge separation between the two major groups. There were some subgroups but they were fairly fluid.
Almost everyone was white, so there was no racial or ethnic differences to come into play.
I spent one year in a regular high school. Being a nerd to begin with, being a year younger (I had skipped a grade), and having just moved to that city I was just a total social reject. Consequently I couldn't tell you much about the social dynamics of the place. I think I've mostly blocked that year out of my memory - I was miserable but don't remember much.
Then two years at the all-boys Jesuit school. So all of the dynamics brought in by girls were non existent. As for socioeconomics... as a private school it had lots of well off kids, but as a Jesuit school they also let a lot of poor catholic kids in on bursaries. When you combined the jacket-and-tie dress code it really cut down on a fair bit of that kind of stratification (plus even the poor kids had parents motivated enough to get them into a private school in the first place).
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 02:44:41 PM
listened to RATT and other horrible hair bands
Hey! :blush:
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 02:31:14 PM
American high school is more segregated along socioeconomic lines than the movies -- where everyone is rich, of course, except for the one "poor" outsider (actually from an upper-middle class background) who wins everyone over by the end of the story -- would show you.
Someone's not seen Step Up <_<
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2014, 03:10:18 PMBeing a nerd to begin with, being a year younger (I had skipped a grade)
:hug: Me too. Socially, I made up for it first by being a jokester and using a lot of swear words I learned from my father which cracked people up in grade school; and later by playing guitar and smoking cigarettes, which led to hanging out with some older "bad" kids when I was a freshman in high school, who tolerated my honors-student shit due to our shared interests.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 09, 2014, 03:14:53 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 02:31:14 PM
American high school is more segregated along socioeconomic lines than the movies -- where everyone is rich, of course, except for the one "poor" outsider (actually from an upper-middle class background) who wins everyone over by the end of the story -- would show you.
Someone's not seen Step Up <_<
:lol: Being dragged to see Stomp The Yard in the theater was enough Hollywood stepping movie for me.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 09, 2014, 02:54:30 PM
There were still gradations of wealth status within the missionary kids however. Me and my friends made fun of the kids whose pants came down to the middle of their shins and those who ate ramen noodles twice a day.
Plus ca change, huh.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
What about high school did you hope would change, but clearly hasn't? What did you guys have to deal with that put you in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation?
I was an idiot in High School so generally everything I did damned me, but that was because I generally did stupid things.
Damn I cannot imagine calling a girl a bitch or calling her a cocktease or a slut in High School nor any of my friends. But then I cannot imagine doing that now so maybe that is just us. I mean there were girls we didn't like but damn that is pretty hard core.
There was this group of total douchebags we called 'the crew' who were notorious for doing this sort of thing but the rest of us just tolerated them. One would think those were the guys the girls didn't like but of course they were the most popular guys. Or not, it is hard to remember now maybe they just acted popular.
I really enjoyed High School though. I am still friends with most of my friends from those days.
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 02:44:41 PM
Almost everyone was white, so there was no racial or ethnic differences to come into play.
We had a huge one. The vast majority of the regular school was Africa American, but the magnet program I was in which had lots of honkies and Asian kids as well and we all had different classes so we did not socialize much.. I was a band nerd so I mingled with lots of the minority kids though, but just the nerdy ones.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
Basically, what we both learned in this conversation is that teenage boys are horrible, horrible creatures.
Just want to throw this out there but didn't your sons have a similar opinion about teenage girls?
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:22:40 PM
Damn I cannot imagine calling a girl a bitch or calling her a cocktease or a slut in High School nor any of my friends. But then I cannot imagine doing that now so maybe that is just us.
I not only can imagine but also do call women bitches and sluts though not as a negative. :D
Quote from: garbon on April 09, 2014, 05:39:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:22:40 PM
Damn I cannot imagine calling a girl a bitch or calling her a cocktease or a slut in High School nor any of my friends. But then I cannot imagine doing that now so maybe that is just us.
I not only can imagine but also do call women bitches and sluts though not as a negative. :D
That is totally different :P
Though generally I leave bitch-as-positive stuff to the ladies.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
I had an interesting conversation with Riley the other day that's kind of disturbed me.
She was talking about how she just can't win with boys her age. (She's almost 15, and in the 9th grade.) If she's nice to them, she's a bitch for leading them on when she doesn't like them. If she's not nice to them, she's a bitch for not being nice. The conversation continued to the fact that it just gets worse when the boys get older.
You're a cocktease if you don't have sex after making out for X amount of time (or if, god forbid, you actually let them touch your tatas :o ), but if you don't make out with them (or let them touch your tatas), you're a frigid bitch. God forbid you actually have sex with them - and worse, enjoy it! - because then you're just a slut and a whore.
Basically, what we both learned in this conversation is that teenage boys are horrible, horrible creatures. This is how high school girls get into trouble. They really are in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation with these guys. No matter what she does, Riley will be a bitch/slut/whore/frigid bitch.
I really thought we'd be past this 30 years after I was in high school, but no, it's just as bad as ever. Thankfully, Riley is a lot like her mother and thinks they can all go to hell (just like I did), but it sucks that this is still happening.
What about high school did you hope would change, but clearly hasn't? What did you guys have to deal with that put you in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation?
Inquiring minds and all that. :)
When I was in school, the only thing that mattered was examinations. Any romantic relationship was completely out of the question. I didn't consider that aspect for one second. Of course, given the way I am, not a surprise that no female was interested in me.
Some of the folks dated, of course, and they eventually got married. But the majority were like me. Exams only. Without good grades, I couldn't get an office job, and without an office job, there was no way I could get married.
So, what you describe here sounds bizarre to me. Why worry about all that? Just study.
The hive demands an 'A'.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 09, 2014, 06:07:24 PM
The hive demands an 'A'.
The hive doesn't demand
an A. It demands an A in all 9 subjects that we took.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:05:57 PM
Some of the folks dated, of course, and they eventually got married.
Were they as big a losers as the ones who played sports?
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:09:13 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 09, 2014, 06:07:24 PM
The hive demands an 'A'.
The hive doesn't demand an A. It demands an A in all 9 subjects that we took.
It just makes it worse though. They cannot give everybody an A so the harder everybody works the harder it is to get one.
When he says "office job" it's like he's saying "NFL Draft". :P
When I say "office job" I generally mean something more akin to stepping in a bear trap.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 06:12:09 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:05:57 PM
Some of the folks dated, of course, and they eventually got married.
Were they as big a losers as the ones who played sports?
None of the best students dated. The folks who dated were students in the middle of the league, or losers.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 06:12:58 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:09:13 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 09, 2014, 06:07:24 PM
The hive demands an 'A'.
The hive doesn't demand an A. It demands an A in all 9 subjects that we took.
It just makes it worse though. They cannot give everybody an A so the harder everybody works the harder it is to get one.
Grades are given on a relative basis in HK. For As, I think it is top 5% of students in that subject. There is no objective standard. If you are better than the other 95%, you get an A. But even if everybody does well, only the top 5% get As.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 09, 2014, 06:14:35 PM
When he says "office job" it's like he's saying "NFL Draft". :P
When I say "office job" I generally mean something more akin to stepping in a bear trap.
That's certainly not what I meant :P
See Riley? You could be going to school in Hong Kong.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:17:04 PM
Grades are given on a relative basis in HK. For As, I think it is top 5% of students in that subject. There is no objective standard. If you are better than the other 95%, you get an A. But even if everybody does well, only the top 5% get As.
That is what I was saying. You guys were getting played man.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 06:19:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:17:04 PM
Grades are given on a relative basis in HK. For As, I think it is top 5% of students in that subject. There is no objective standard. If you are better than the other 95%, you get an A. But even if everybody does well, only the top 5% get As.
That is what I was saying. You guys were getting played man.
:yes:
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:48:14 PM
Though generally I leave bitch-as-positive stuff to the ladies.
That's their word, not ours.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 06:19:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:17:04 PM
Grades are given on a relative basis in HK. For As, I think it is top 5% of students in that subject. There is no objective standard. If you are better than the other 95%, you get an A. But even if everybody does well, only the top 5% get As.
That is what I was saying. You guys were getting played man.
Why? If the rule says you have to beat the other 95% of students, then that's what we should do. It is doable. I think that actually works better than if there are objective standards. An A would be meaningless if half the students get it. That system is what makes my As valuable.
It's a stupid game and the only way to win is not to play. If 50% of students are objectively excellent but 45% of them wind up washing dishes, that's an indictment of the system. Of course, I'm by no means under the impression that PRChina of having a system that isn't garbage and doomed to fail. This is one reason why it will, incidentally; remember Jacob's article about underachieving elites?
Quote from: garbon on April 09, 2014, 05:39:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:22:40 PM
Damn I cannot imagine calling a girl a bitch or calling her a cocktease or a slut in High School nor any of my friends. But then I cannot imagine doing that now so maybe that is just us.
I not only can imagine but also do call women bitches and sluts though not as a negative. :D
But that's what gay men are required to do.
I just do not see how anything good could result from me using the term bitch or slut even as a compliment.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 07:31:47 PM
I just do not see how anything good could result from me using the term bitch or slut even as a compliment.
It's all very tone of voice and the presence.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 02:50:00 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 02:44:41 PM
My high school had a pretty clear socioeconomic divide. The poor kids were dirt poor, smelled bad, always got in fights, never participated in athletics, had long, ratty hair, listened to RATT and other horrible hair bands, smoked, and had zero interest in academics. The rest of us were mostly middle class with a few upper middle class sprinkled in. Huge separation between the two major groups. There were some subgroups but they were fairly fluid.
Almost everyone was white, so there was no racial or ethnic differences to come into play.
I had the advantage that everyone was basically poor except for the children of the few families that owned businesses in town. That group of "rich kids" was too small to really be a group unto themselves so an economic divide wasnt really possible. There was this one kid who's father was a professor though....
In my high school, most everybody was lower-middle class or working class. There weren't enough rich kids to be a group of them, and the few really poor kids mostly skipped class and dropped out as soon as they could. There were definately cliques, but as someone else said, they weren't nearly as rigid or well-defined as what you see in the movies.
I never heard any of the guys I knew call a girl a slut, bitch, etc., that I can recall. I do recall hearing a few girls complain about being called sluts, but I suspect what was happening was that other girls were telling them that boys were calling them names.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 06:52:17 PM
It's a stupid game and the only way to win is not to play. If 50% of students are objectively excellent but 45% of them wind up washing dishes, that's an indictment of the system. Of course, I'm by no means under the impression that PRChina of having a system that isn't garbage and doomed to fail. This is one reason why it will, incidentally; remember Jacob's article about underachieving elites?
A lot of students in HK probably think the same way as you. They give up before they even try. I understand the sentiment because I gave up trying to find a job in the finance world and settled for something a lot less. I lost the game too. But my excuse is that it is different from not playing altogether. Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean you don't need to have basic necessities. The beauty of the system is that anybody can do it. Anybody with enough time and effort can cram enough useless facts into their heads and tick the right boxes in the examinations that are open to all.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:29:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
Basically, what we both learned in this conversation is that teenage boys are horrible, horrible creatures.
Just want to throw this out there but didn't your sons have a similar opinion about teenage girls?
Which opinion? That girls were horrible, horrible creatures, or that girls were either bitches, sluts, or ice-maidens?
I don't remember my boys thinking girls were horrible, but I know that Jackson, at least, thought that most weren't very bright. Now he realizes that he hung out with the dumb ones thinking he'd score more easily. (He did.) Carter may have thought they were pretty awful, but that was because he dated girls who ended up cheating on him. (He was the nice guy.) Jeremy is in a very different world than any of this, since most of his spare time is spent with his friends from church. Since they're Unitarian Universalists, they have a pretty mature attitude toward sex and all of that. Plus, Jeremy just isn't the type to judge anyone. He figures people are all great until they prove that they're not.
I just remember you posted a prom pic of one of them...I guess it was Jak. He was with this really nice and attractive looking girl and I complimented him and you said something about how it was just a friend and he didn't date high school girls because they were not worth his time or something.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 07:57:48 PM
I just remember you posted a prom pic of one of them...I guess it was Jak. He was with this really nice and attractive looking girl and I complimented him and you said something about how it was just a friend and he didn't date high school girls because they were not worth his time or something.
La sanctidad... :unsure:
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:35:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 06:19:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 06:17:04 PM
Grades are given on a relative basis in HK. For As, I think it is top 5% of students in that subject. There is no objective standard. If you are better than the other 95%, you get an A. But even if everybody does well, only the top 5% get As.
That is what I was saying. You guys were getting played man.
Why? If the rule says you have to beat the other 95% of students, then that's what we should do. It is doable. I think that actually works better than if there are objective standards. An A would be meaningless if half the students get it. That system is what makes my As valuable.
Grades only matter if they accurately reflect competence with the subject, wether half the class gets As or no one does doesn't matter. Individuals, Companies and Nations only benifit if they are capable. Being mariginally less ignorant then the rest of the herd and thus "meriting" and A helps no one.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
The beauty of the system is that anybody can do it.
Quote from: Mono, like five minutes ago
Why? If the rule says you have to beat the other 95% of students, then that's what we should do.
Quote from: garbon on April 09, 2014, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 07:31:47 PM
I just do not see how anything good could result from me using the term bitch or slut even as a compliment.
It's all very tone of voice and the presence.
I can do a pretty good rendition.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 07:57:48 PM
I just remember you posted a prom pic of one of them...I guess it was Jak. He was with this really nice and attractive looking girl and I complimented him and you said something about how it was just a friend and he didn't date high school girls because they were not worth his time or something.
No, in that case, he didn't date her because a) she wanted nothing to do with him as a boyfriend because he was an ass, and b) she wasn't dumb and wasn't likely to drop her panties because he asked her to. Basically, he was exactly the kind of bastard that Riley was complaining about. :P
Though, if I recall correctly, by the end of his senior year, he was pretty much done with dating at that point. In fact, I don't think he's dated anyone since then.
"For all the bitches I might take home, I got the Johnson's Baby Powder and Cool Water Cologne"? :hmm:
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 06:52:17 PM
It's a stupid game and the only way to win is not to play. If 50% of students are objectively excellent but 45% of them wind up washing dishes, that's an indictment of the system. Of course, I'm by no means under the impression that PRChina of having a system that isn't garbage and doomed to fail. This is one reason why it will, incidentally; remember Jacob's article about underachieving elites?
A lot of students in HK probably think the same way as you. They give up before they even try. I understand the sentiment because I gave up trying to find a job in the finance world and settled for something a lot less. I lost the game too. But my excuse is that it is different from not playing altogether. Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean you don't need to have basic necessities. The beauty of the system is that anybody can do it. Anybody with enough time and effort can cram enough useless facts into their heads and tick the right boxes in the examinations that are open to all.
Likely not. I doubt that most kids from poor families have enough time to sit around cramming useless facts into their heads.
Quote from: garbon on April 09, 2014, 08:06:45 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
A lot of students in HK probably think the same way as you. They give up before they even try. I understand the sentiment because I gave up trying to find a job in the finance world and settled for something a lot less. I lost the game too. But my excuse is that it is different from not playing altogether. Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean you don't need to have basic necessities. The beauty of the system is that anybody can do it. Anybody with enough time and effort can cram enough useless facts into their heads and tick the right boxes in the examinations that are open to all.
Likely not. I doubt that most kids from poor families have enough time to sit around cramming useless facts into their heads.
:yes:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 08:02:07 PM
Grades only matter if they accurately reflect competence with the subject, wether half the class gets As or no one does doesn't matter. Individuals, Companies and Nations only benifit if they are capable. Being mariginally less ignorant then the rest of the herd and thus "meriting" and A helps no one.
The system is designed for selection. If a person gets an A, that's an indication that he is better than the rest. It would be meaningless if too many people get As.
As an individual, I can only play along. I am not going to say, the only way to win is not to play it, and end up washing dishes.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 08:02:43 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
The beauty of the system is that anybody can do it.
Quote from: Mono, like five minutes ago
Why? If the rule says you have to beat the other 95% of students, then that's what we should do.
Huh? I don't see the contradiction. Anybody can beat the other 95% and become the 5%.
Quote from: garbon on April 09, 2014, 08:06:45 PM
Likely not. I doubt that most kids from poor families have enough time to sit around cramming useless facts into their heads.
It is true that poor kids have a tough time. But I doubt it is because they don't have enough time. More like they give up before even trying.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:14:16 PM
The system is designed for selection. If a person gets an A, that's an indication that he is better than the rest. It would be meaningless if too many people get As.
As an individual, I can only play along. I am not going to say, the only way to win is not to play it, and end up washing dishes.
Absolute bullshit. The goal of an education system should be to educate everyone to a high standard, not as horse and pony show that arbitrarily picks winners and losers.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 08:16:59 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:14:16 PM
The system is designed for selection. If a person gets an A, that's an indication that he is better than the rest. It would be meaningless if too many people get As.
As an individual, I can only play along. I am not going to say, the only way to win is not to play it, and end up washing dishes.
Absolute bullshit. The goal of an education system should be to educate everyone to a high standard, not as horse and pony show that arbitrarily picks winners and losers.
I don't think it is arbitrary. To a certain extent, good grades do reflect effort, intelligence, and/or determination. Especially in a relative sense.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:15:03 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 08:02:43 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
The beauty of the system is that anybody can do it.
Quote from: Mono, like five minutes ago
Why? If the rule says you have to beat the other 95% of students, then that's what we should do.
Huh? I don't see the contradiction. Anybody can beat the other 95% and become the 5%.
This is why we won the Korean War. Anybody can beat the other 95% to the American lines! It could be you!
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2014, 08:03:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 09, 2014, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 07:31:47 PM
I just do not see how anything good could result from me using the term bitch or slut even as a compliment.
It's all very tone of voice and the presence.
I can do a pretty good rendition.
An...extraordinary rendition?
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 08:26:41 PM
This is why we won the Korean War. Anybody can beat the other 95% to the American lines! It could be you!
Are you saying that, because the system sucks, students should refuse to study? The system is not perfect, but as individuals they still need to find jobs. Just because they don't like the system, therefore they should give up without trying and be content with cleaning bathrooms, washing dishes, doing telemarketing, etc for the rest of their lives? Is this what you propose?
BTW, this thread is quite an eye opener to me. I have no idea that some teenage girls...think that way. Is Meri's kid an exception or what? Most teenage girls probably aren't interested in romance. In my school, the male/female ratio was like 1:2, and most of the top students were female. They are the ones who study the hardest.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Most teenage girls probably aren't interested in romance.
"Probably" not; literally any of them could be in the 5% uninterested in romance.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 09, 2014, 08:26:41 PM
This is why we won the Korean War. Anybody can beat the other 95% to the American lines! It could be you!
Are you saying that, because the system sucks, students should refuse to study? The system is not perfect, but as individuals they still need to find jobs. Just because they don't like the system, therefore they should give up without trying and be content with cleaning bathrooms, washing dishes, doing telemarketing, etc for the rest of their lives? Is this what you propose?
BTW, this thread is quite an eye opener to me. I have no idea that some teenage girls...think that way. Is Meri's kid an exception or what? Most teenage girls probably aren't interested in romance. In my school, the male/female ratio was like 1:2, and most of the top students were female. They are the ones who study the hardest.
What?
I teach at a relatively high ranking girl's high school and all the students are interested in romance. The girls on the college track generally aren't able to engage in it because of the ludicrous 8:30am-10pm schedule they're on, but that doesn't mean they're not interested.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Is Meri's kid an exception or what? Most teenage girls probably aren't interested in romance. In my school, the male/female ratio was like 1:2, and most of the top students were female. They are the ones who study the hardest.
Most of the OP was, as mentioned, hyperbole and kvetching. But Riley is by no means the only girl in any of the local high schools dating. She's also getting straight As in her classes. And my boys dated throughout most of high school, too. (Though they had crappy grades in high school. :glare:)
I would say that it's normal in the United States to have relationships while a teenager, yes.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 08:38:44 PM
What?
I teach at a relatively high ranking girl's high school and all the students are interested in romance. The girls on the college track generally aren't able to engage in it because of the ludicrous 8:30am-10pm schedule they're on, but that doesn't mean they're not interested.
Using your terms, every single student in my school would be on the college track. Yes, even the worst students.
Actually having high school in the uk would be a start. Our system sucks, leaving comprehensive school at 16 and being thrown into a crappy 2 years of exams, in what should be the prime period to enjoy being young and that.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 08:38:56 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Is Meri's kid an exception or what? Most teenage girls probably aren't interested in romance. In my school, the male/female ratio was like 1:2, and most of the top students were female. They are the ones who study the hardest.
Most of the OP was, as mentioned, hyperbole and kvetching. But Riley is by no means the only girl in any of the local high schools dating. She's also getting straight As in her classes. And my boys dated throughout most of high school, too. (Though they had crappy grades in high school. :glare:)
I would say that it's normal in the United States to have relationships while a teenager, yes.
I do admit that my school is not a representative sample. My experience is that around 10-15% of the class dated. The rest aren't interested. At least, that's what I think. I know absolutely nothing about the psyche of teenage girls, let alone the dating culture in the US.
Mono puts the "parochial" into parochial schooling.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 08:51:44 PM
Mono puts the "parochial" into parochial schooling.
It was a school founded by the Church of England, yes. There isn't a big focus on religious stuff, despite the fact that Christianity is a mandatory subject. My school has a reputation in HK as one of the craziest exam machines in a land of crazy exam machines :lol:
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 08:51:44 PM
Mono puts the "parochial" into parochial schooling.
It was a school founded by the Church of England, yes. There isn't a big focus on religious stuff, despite the fact that Christianity is a mandatory subject. My school has a reputation in HK as one of the craziest exam machines in a land of crazy exam machines :lol:
St.Pauls?
Mono comes from a different galaxy and is possibly an alien but surely not a human being. News at 11.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 08:04:20 PM
Though, if I recall correctly, by the end of his senior year, he was pretty much done with dating at that point. In fact, I don't think he's dated anyone since then.
Ah yes this was that time I guess.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:49:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 08:38:56 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Is Meri's kid an exception or what? Most teenage girls probably aren't interested in romance. In my school, the male/female ratio was like 1:2, and most of the top students were female. They are the ones who study the hardest.
Most of the OP was, as mentioned, hyperbole and kvetching. But Riley is by no means the only girl in any of the local high schools dating. She's also getting straight As in her classes. And my boys dated throughout most of high school, too. (Though they had crappy grades in high school. :glare:)
I would say that it's normal in the United States to have relationships while a teenager, yes.
I do admit that my school is not a representative sample. My experience is that around 10-15% of the class dated. The rest aren't interested. At least, that's what I think. I know absolutely nothing about the psyche of teenage girls, let alone the dating culture in the US.
The school I was talking about is Korean and I think the academic atmosphere is probably not that different from HK.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 08:38:56 PM
I would say that it's normal in the United States to have relationships while a teenager, yes.
That would be the only reason to ever go through it again. Hot, hot teenybopper sex.
Now I gotta play some Whitesnake.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 08:36:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Most teenage girls probably aren't interested in romance.
"Probably" not; literally any of them could be in the 5% uninterested in romance.
:lol:
Mono, I'm arguing that the math you're using to prove your point may be flawed.
1989 was the best year. I was a senior and had a severe case of Dontgiveafuckatallitis. I had my credits, all I had to do was show up and act all groovy. None of that stupid required tests to graduate or forced community service bullshit like the saps have to do now.
Just me, my AMC Pacer and whatever girl I was banging. Good times.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:49:09 PM
I do admit that my school is not a representative sample. My experience is that around 10-15% of the class dated. The rest aren't interested. At least, that's what I think. I know absolutely nothing about the psyche of teenage girls, let alone the dating culture in the US.
Yeah have a horrible childhood of boredom and oppressive stress and you to can have a middling job in the HK Civil Service. :P
I guess the main thing it would have developed in me is a hatred for all humanity since it is due to everybody else studying from dawn to dusk that has ruined my life and made me a slave.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 09:39:47 PM
The school I was talking about is Korean and I think the academic atmosphere is probably not that different from HK.
How can you tell?
The eyes are slanted different.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 09, 2014, 09:43:26 PM
1989 was the best year. I was a senior and had a severe case of Dontgiveafuckatallitis. I had my credits, all I had to do was show up and act all groovy. None of that stupid required tests to graduate or forced community service bullshit like the saps have to do now.
Just me, my AMC Pacer and whatever girl I was banging. Good times.
Heh, back when we could still do those things in the back seat of a sub-compact, her legs up and out the window. :lol:
In my senior year I had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized. Actually due the medication they were giving me I was kinda fuzzy that whole year. I'm not entirely sure what happened. I know I was never charged for any of those things so as far as I'm concerned I didn't do it.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 09:39:47 PM
The school I was talking about is Korean and I think the academic atmosphere is probably not that different from HK.
Somehow I doubt your school and my school are alike. Obviously I don't know anything about your school. But like I said, my school is not a good representative sample of HK.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 09:39:47 PM
The school I was talking about is Korean and I think the academic atmosphere is probably not that different from HK.
Somehow I doubt your school and my school are alike. Obviously I don't know anything about your school. But like I said, my school is not a good representative sample of HK.
Since I probably would have gotten Bs at your school, what does that get you in Hong Kong?
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 09:49:28 PM
How can you tell?
From the way that Mono describes it, it's pretty clearly quite similar. Though unlike Mono who has Academic Stockholm Syndrome, Koreans tend to believe that it's a terrible oppresive system.
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 09:45:20 PM
Yeah have a horrible childhood of boredom and oppressive stress and you to can have a middling job in the HK Civil Service. :P
I guess the main thing it would have developed in me is a hatred for all humanity since it is due to everybody else studying from dawn to dusk that has ruined my life and made me a slave.
Well, I manage to kind of put food on the table, with a lot of help from the wife. Won't call my job middling though. It is a dead end :Embarrass:
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 09:39:47 PM
The school I was talking about is Korean and I think the academic atmosphere is probably not that different from HK.
Somehow I doubt your school and my school are alike. Obviously I don't know anything about your school. But like I said, my school is not a good representative sample of HK.
Aside from being in denail about it being a good system, what you describe sounds virtually identical to the Korean system.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 09:59:46 PM
Well, I manage to kind of put food on the table, with a lot of help from the wife. Won't call my job middling though. It is a dead end :Embarrass:
You do alright Mono. You clearly travel and enjoy life now....and counting down those days until retirement.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 09:39:47 PMThe school I was talking about is Korean and I think the academic atmosphere is probably not that different from HK.
How did the Koreans develop their reputation for video gaming excellence with these brutal school hours?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 09:58:32 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 09:49:28 PM
How can you tell?
Academic Stockholm Syndrome
Nice turn of phrase, Tim. :) But really I was just piling on re: you not knowing any Korean after 4 years there. :sleep:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 09, 2014, 09:55:19 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 09, 2014, 09:43:26 PM
1989 was the best year. I was a senior and had a severe case of Dontgiveafuckatallitis. I had my credits, all I had to do was show up and act all groovy. None of that stupid required tests to graduate or forced community service bullshit like the saps have to do now.
Just me, my AMC Pacer and whatever girl I was banging. Good times.
Heh, back when we could still do those things in the back seat of a sub-compact, her legs up and out the window. :lol:
Plus I had my sweet K-Mart money and could splurge a bit on the honeys. 3 something an hour. WOOT WOOT
Denail is not just a river in Egipped.
:huh:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 09:58:32 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 09:49:28 PM
How can you tell?
From the way that Mono describes it, it's pretty clearly quite similar. Though unlike Mono who has Academic Stockholm Syndrome, Koreans tend to believe that it's a terrible oppresive system.
HKers believe it is a terrible system too. There is a reason why so many parents send their kids overseas. Competition for the international schools (which do not follow the HK curriculum) is insane. I happen to think the system has merits. It is a great system for someone who likes to lock himself up in a room :contract:
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 09, 2014, 10:02:55 PM
Plus I had my sweet K-Mart money and could splurge a bit on the honeys. 3 something an hour. WOOT WOOT
Caldor for me. Lulz, Domestics.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 09, 2014, 10:10:32 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 09, 2014, 10:02:55 PM
Plus I had my sweet K-Mart money and could splurge a bit on the honeys. 3 something an hour. WOOT WOOT
Caldor for me. Lulz, Domestics.
I was in the electronics/TV section. With those bastard wood cabinet TV's. MAH BACK
Mine was a 1980 Honda Civic hatchback (blue) and the AMC 6, back when six theaters in one building was MASSIVE! :cool:
At least yours wasn't a fishbowl on wheels.
Those Pacers had a bad rust problem on the floorboards.
My first car--before I could save up the cash for the '76 Plymouth Volare Road Runner--was my mother's hand-me-down '81 Chevette. Oh. Dear. God.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 10:02:29 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 09:58:32 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 09:49:28 PM
How can you tell?
Academic Stockholm Syndrome
Nice turn of phrase, Tim. :) But really I was just piling on re: you not knowing any Korean after 4 years there. :sleep:
That's an exaggeration
"Hello," "Please," "Thank you," "Where's the bathroom?", "Goodbye," "Delicious!", "1, 2, 3", "How much?" -- these are phrases you'd want to learn from a guidebook if you were visiting a country for a week.
HEY YOU GODDAMNED FOREIGNER, WHERE IS THE SHITTER?
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 10:31:17 PM
"Hello," "Please," "Thank you," "Where's the bathroom?", "Goodbye," "Delicious!", "1, 2, 3", "How much?" -- these are phrases you'd want to learn from a guidebook if you were visiting a country for a week.
My vocabulary is much larger than that.
Can you play CK2 in Korean?
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 10:36:56 PM
Can you play CK2 in Korean?
While I do know the word for King in Korean and can read Hanguel probably not. Though I've played enough that I could probably muddle through just due to memorizing the interface.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 10:31:17 PM
"Hello," "Please," "Thank you," "Where's the bathroom?", "Goodbye," "Delicious!", "1, 2, 3", "How much?" -- these are phrases you'd want to learn from a guidebook if you were visiting a country for a week.
This is pretty typical western thinking. A few Brits tried to say good morning to me in Cantonese. The key word being try, becuase it is extremely difficult for a westerner to get the pronounciation right. Cantonese and English are in completely different language groups. All they accomplished was confusing the locals.
Just speak English.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 09, 2014, 10:21:46 PM
My first car--before I could save up the cash for the '76 Plymouth Volare Road Runner--was my mother's hand-me-down '81 Chevette. Oh. Dear. God.
OMG I had one of those.
I even had a 2nd a van version. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 10:39:15 PM
Just speak English.
That's pretty typical Monoriu thinking, and I'll be sure to follow your standards of etiquette and use English exclusively when we meet. But I've found knowing some non-English pretty crucial for showing respect and, beyond that, just being able to conduct basic business in a bunch of situations, not just Western. It's not just to be cute and endearing.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 10:38:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 10:36:56 PM
Can you play CK2 in Korean?
While I do know the word for King in Korean and can read Hanguel probably not. Though I've played enough that I could probably muddle through just due to memorizing the interface.
Your students also taught you a bunch of words for rain, right?
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 10:44:23 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 10:39:15 PM
Just speak English.
That's pretty typical Monoriu thinking, and I'll be sure to follow your standards of etiquette and use English exclusively when we meet. But I've found knowing some non-English pretty crucial for showing respect and, beyond that, just being able to conduct basic business in a bunch of situations, not just Western. It's not just to be cute and endearing.
:yes:
In France, an attempt to communicate in their language got me better service and even *gasp* SMILES than the loud talking Americans and Germans tourists.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 10:44:23 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 10:39:15 PM
Just speak English.
That's pretty typical Monoriu thinking, and I'll be sure to follow your standards of etiquette and use English exclusively when we meet. But I've found knowing some non-English pretty crucial for showing respect and, beyond that, just being able to conduct basic business in a bunch of situations, not just Western. It's not just to be cute and endearing.
I really don't think there is any expectation in HK for foreigners to speak Cantonese.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 10:45:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 10:38:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 10:36:56 PM
Can you play CK2 in Korean?
While I do know the word for King in Korean and can read Hanguel probably not. Though I've played enough that I could probably muddle through just due to memorizing the interface.
Your students also taught you a bunch of words for rain, right?
:rolleyes: Words for different kinds of weather and that was one example from one class.
It's not as if that was the only class I picked up vocabulary in.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 09, 2014, 10:21:46 PM
My first car--before I could save up the cash for the '76 Plymouth Volare Road Runner--was my mother's hand-me-down '81 Chevette. Oh. Dear. God.
My first car was an '85 BMW 535i (with manual, of course). I loved that car. :wub:
Until the constant repairs forced me to sell it at a massive loss. :weep:
Then I had a '91 Taurus. For as boring a car as that was, it was rock solid, and it took me from numerous trips to Flin Flon and back, plus a trip to Milwaukee and back, all in under a year until I was rear ended and it was written off. :(
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 11:08:37 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 10:45:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 10:38:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 10:36:56 PM
Can you play CK2 in Korean?
While I do know the word for King in Korean and can read Hanguel probably not. Though I've played enough that I could probably muddle through just due to memorizing the interface.
Your students also taught you a bunch of words for rain, right?
:rolleyes: Words for different kinds of weather and that was one example from one class.
It's not as if that was the only class I picked up vocabulary in.
Seriously, get with the program. Mihali has become entirely fluent in Vermontese.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 09, 2014, 10:44:23 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 10:39:15 PM
Just speak English.
That's pretty typical Monoriu thinking, and I'll be sure to follow your standards of etiquette and use English exclusively when we meet. But I've found knowing some non-English pretty crucial for showing respect and, beyond that, just being able to conduct basic business in a bunch of situations, not just Western. It's not just to be cute and endearing.
Yeah, in the West attempting to learn someone else's languages is sign of respect and deference.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 10, 2014, 02:16:49 AM
Yeah, in the West attempting to learn someone else's languages is sign of respect and deference.
A lot of restaurants in HK hire foreign waiters and waitresses, because they are cheaper and because they speak English. When they serve me, I speak English. On a few rare occasions, I mistakenly thought they were Chinese and I spoke Cantonese to them. Guess what? I was in the wrong and I switched to English when I realised that they were not Chinese. This is HK, where like 98% of the population speak Cantonese.
I just can't imagine the same thing happening in, say, Paris or Quebec City. Waiting staff who can't speak French so that customers must speak English to them? There'll be a strike or riot or something :lol:
Quote from: Ideologue on April 10, 2014, 01:55:08 AM
Seriously, get with the program. Mihali has become entirely fluent in Vermontese.
:rolleyes: As a matter of fact, I *have* learned how to use "Jeezum crow!" as a minced oath and to call soft-serve "creemies."
Which is way more effort than I put into trying to get my Spanish up to actual conversational level by taking several hours of non-credit classes and tutoring every week during the last two years of law school, in the vain hope I'd be able to represent monolingual Spanish-speaking defendants (of which there are none in Vt.).
EDIT: And yes Tim, I know Korean is magnitudes of difficulty harder for an English-speaker than Spanish or French. I don't think you're bad or are doing something reprehensible, I'm just a little sad you haven't gotten more out of being there -- especially in terms of employability in other fields. I'm also a little jealous, since when I was studying languages I felt like the only way to really get over the hurdle was to live somewhere it was spoken and use it for everything. But I never particularly wanted to know Korean, and perhaps you didn't either, so maybe it's not fair to you. :hug:
Quote from: Barrister on April 09, 2014, 11:19:26 PM
Until the constant repairs forced me to sell it at a massive loss. :weep:
I bought my Honda Civic for $100. I put $50 into it to fix the tierod, drove it for two years, and then the tierod broke again. I sold it to some kid for $100. :D
Quote from: Monoriu on April 10, 2014, 03:17:12 AM
A lot of restaurants in HK hire foreign waiters and waitresses, because they are cheaper and because they speak English.
:unsure:
Are they from India?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 10, 2014, 08:11:41 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 10, 2014, 03:17:12 AM
A lot of restaurants in HK hire foreign waiters and waitresses, because they are cheaper and because they speak English.
:unsure:
Are they from India?
No. Usually Filipinos and Thais.
Before the Mono soul crushing fest this thread was making me miss late teens dating.
Where did it go? :(
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 10, 2014, 08:22:17 AM
Before the Mono soul crushing fest this thread was making me miss late teens dating.
Where did it go? :(
Down the drain... like so much Jack Daniels.
Time keeps on slippin'..into the future.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 10, 2014, 08:13:59 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 10, 2014, 08:11:41 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 10, 2014, 03:17:12 AM
A lot of restaurants in HK hire foreign waiters and waitresses, because they are cheaper and because they speak English.
:unsure:
Are they from India?
No. Usually Filipinos and Thais.
And they speak better English than HKers? :unsure:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 10, 2014, 08:47:13 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 10, 2014, 08:13:59 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 10, 2014, 08:11:41 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 10, 2014, 03:17:12 AM
A lot of restaurants in HK hire foreign waiters and waitresses, because they are cheaper and because they speak English.
:unsure:
Are they from India?
No. Usually Filipinos and Thais.
And they speak better English than HKers? :unsure:
Unfortunately, yes. The HKers who are waiters and waitresses generally don't speak much English. Filipinos and Thais generally speak good English.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 10, 2014, 08:47:13 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 10, 2014, 08:13:59 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 10, 2014, 08:11:41 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 10, 2014, 03:17:12 AM
A lot of restaurants in HK hire foreign waiters and waitresses, because they are cheaper and because they speak English.
:unsure:
Are they from India?
No. Usually Filipinos and Thais.
And they speak better English than HKers? :unsure:
Most Filipinos I ran into were fluent, even hicks running convenience stores in the backwoods.
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 08:38:56 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Is Meri's kid an exception or what? Most teenage girls probably aren't interested in romance. In my school, the male/female ratio was like 1:2, and most of the top students were female. They are the ones who study the hardest.
Most of the OP was, as mentioned, hyperbole and kvetching. But Riley is by no means the only girl in any of the local high schools dating. She's also getting straight As in her classes.
Sex: F
For one of our outsourced products, we use a call center in the Philippines. I think they do a great job, but it frustrates some of our clients' idiot customers, because while they can never place the accent, it sounds vaguely foreign :gasp:
Flips. :rolleyes:
My Dodge Valiant (and more particularly that very roomy back seat) was where it was at!
First car I ever owned was the used Chrysler K-car I bought from my then-gf's father. If you wanted to pass someone on the highway, you had to get out and push. :D
I passed a type 3 that way once.
I used to think a car was just a way of getting from point "A" to point "B"- and on weekends point "C. But that was the old me. That man died the moment I laid eyes on the 1984 Toyota Tercel.
But then I totaled it about a year later. The third of my twelve auto accidents. I was an awesome teenage driver.
Quote from: The Brain on April 10, 2014, 12:36:17 PM
I passed a type 3 that way once.
Probably about as a attractive as a K-car. Same colour, too. :P
Quote from: Valmy on April 10, 2014, 12:39:03 PM
The third of my twelve auto accidents. I was an awesome teenage driver.
I hope you were uninsured. :mad:
Quote from: DGuller on April 10, 2014, 12:53:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 10, 2014, 12:39:03 PM
The third of my twelve auto accidents. I was an awesome teenage driver.
I hope you were uninsured. :mad:
I had liability insurance.
Quote from: Valmy on April 10, 2014, 12:39:03 PMThe third of my twelve auto accidents.
Wow. :blink: I know you've always said you're a bad driver, but I thought you were just being humble. :P Is that 12 accidents while still a teenager, or 12 up til now?
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 10, 2014, 01:23:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 10, 2014, 12:39:03 PMThe third of my twelve auto accidents.
Wow. :blink: I know you've always said you're a bad driver, but I thought you were just being humble. :P Is that 12 accidents while still a teenager, or 12 up til now?
My last one happened just before 9/11. I still suck but I at least am good enough to avoid hitting people now.
Quote from: The Brain on April 10, 2014, 10:02:29 AM
Quote from: merithyn on April 09, 2014, 08:38:56 PM
Most of the OP was, as mentioned, hyperbole and kvetching. But Riley is by no means the only girl in any of the local high schools dating. She's also getting straight As in her classes.
Sex: F
School is made for the girls.
Western civilization is made for girls.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 10, 2014, 01:47:44 PM
Western civilization is made for girls.
Asian civilization is made for girly-boys.
Asian civilization evidently isn't made for human beings of any stripe.
I meant the modern parts, like Japan, South Korea and Hong Kong. :P
Quote from: Monoriu on April 09, 2014, 10:07:04 PM
HKers believe it is a terrible system too. There is a reason why so many parents send their kids overseas. Competition for the international schools (which do not follow the HK curriculum) is insane. I happen to think the system has merits. It is a great system for someone who likes to lock himself up in a room :contract:
Where I lived when I was younger there was a private CofE convent school that was about 75% Hong Kong students. I think probably escaping exactly what you're describing.
QuoteThis is pretty typical western thinking. A few Brits tried to say good morning to me in Cantonese. The key word being try, becuase it is extremely difficult for a westerner to get the pronounciation right. Cantonese and English are in completely different language groups. All they accomplished was confusing the locals.
Moroccans laughed at me trying to speak Arabic. Admittedly they all spoke English, French, Spanish, German.... :blink:
Everyone else seems relatively appreciative that you try and speak the language. Except for the Swedes. I ordered a coffee in Swedish and the guy just laughed and said 'what would you like?' There was no need to laugh :weep:
Mrs. MIM is getting ready. Been playing the Pimsleur German in the car all the way up here.
Ich verstehe kein Deutsch.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 10, 2014, 07:29:47 PM
Where I lived when I was younger there was a private CofE convent school that was about 75% Hong Kong students. I think probably escaping exactly what you're describing.
I work in education now. The higher-ups try to convince the public that our education system is great. The media immediately points out that almost none of their children actually go through the system. They all send their children overseas or to local international schools.
In mainland China, my experience is that robot schools are basically the bane of the poor and lower-middle classes. Rich kids seem to be able to bribe their way into the better schools and apparently universities too, or else just go abroad.
Quote from: Malthus on April 10, 2014, 12:33:48 PM
First car I ever owned was the used Chrysler K-car I bought from my then-gf's father. If you wanted to pass someone on the highway, you had to get out and push. :D
:lol: Nothing says "powah" like that inline 4-cylinder did.
My first car was a '70 Dodge Coronet.