Breaking news: Margaret Thatcher has died

[Razgovory]

I'm a little puzzled as to why Jake is putting so much energy into this.

  Maybe he's just enjoying a topic.  When you question motives like this, you sound worse than Raz.

I don't think he has a sinister motive.  I just don't get why it interests him so much.  Now you sound worse than Raz for questioning *my* motives

What is worse then Raz?

Nothing

[Sheilbh]

To be honest, I'm more surprised by the general veneration Reagan is getting in the US (though I guess not on languish, at least not anymore) than the celebrations of Thatcher's death.

I think Reagan was most hated by marginal groups: African-Americans and gays especially. But he had the whole Reagan Democrat/white working class thing.

Maggie was hated by gays, lots of ethnic minorities and another 30-35% of the country too, including Scotland, the North, Wales and most of the Midlands (even today there was a poll - 50% think she was overall positive, 35% negative). That's a larger group. It's big enough that it won't get drowned out entirely and there's no need shift tone not to offend the majority.

[derspiess]

What is worse then Raz?

Cardinals relief pitching today 

[Jacob]

Uh, no.  I'm fine

I do appreciate your efforts to explain the pain Thatcher apparently inflicted upon Britain's working class,

No worries

but it's just not resonating with me.

Clearly

But should you ever need to troll some of your compatriots on the subject of Thatcher, hopefully I've given you something to work with.

We're just too far apart politically to see things the same way.

Maybe I just shouldn't have thought as highly of the UK as I used too, dunno.

Yeah probably (to both). Might be some cultural differences as well as political ones in there too.

[mongers]

See Shelf's excellent post further up, quite a few people in this thread are reading the history written by 'victors' and assuming that Thatcherism and it's reforms were inevitable.
Whereas there were other historical probabilities and if you look at UK domestic politics from early 1981 to early 1982 you'll see the desperate political position the conservative government found itself in, at that point they were staring electoral defeat in the face in 2 years time. 

Are we Americans the victors of industry moving out of the first world?  Bullshit.  But at least we are not so delusional as to blame the simple facts of the modern world on some singular politician.

What is your problem ?

Have you considered trying politeness for a change ? 

Were exactly am I blaming the "simple facts of the modern world on a single politician" ?

I was actually alluding to the political situation of the time, and trying to counter-balance some of the political myth-making that has sprung up in the subsequent 30 years. 

[Valmy]

Yep. Its possible. Taking a slower, more selective and bigger picture approach to closing industries/mines. Seeing the miners as victims of a changing global market, not enemies to be brutally crushed.

Hmmm...that kind of makes sense actually.  Especially given what Shielbh says later.  I wonder if this is a result of the centralized parliamentarian system...I mean it was inevitable that those parts of the country dependent on outdated industries were headed for hard times but perhaps there were insufficient movements afterwards to revitalize them.  However this did not necessarily have to occur in the 80s no?

This also makes me think of Gupta noting that local concerns do not really impact local politics much in terms of MP constituencies, that people tend to vote for the national party rather than what the candidate promises to do for that constuency...which is sorta weird.  Why have local representatives if they are not going to represent your local interests?

[Razgovory]

To be honest, I'm more surprised by the general veneration Reagan is getting in the US (though I guess not on languish, at least not anymore) than the celebrations of Thatcher's death.

I think Reagan was most hated by marginal groups: African-Americans and gays especially. But he had the whole Reagan Democrat/white working class thing.

Maggie was hated by gays, lots of ethnic minorities and another 30-35% of the country too, including Scotland, the North, Wales and most of the Midlands (even today there was a poll - 50% think she was overall positive, 35% negative). That's a larger group. It's big enough that it won't get drowned out entirely and there's no need shift tone not to offend the majority.

Still doesn't explain the worship that Reagan gets.  I mean, when you have Republican debate in the Reagan museum where they talk about being in the "House of Reagan".  It's kind of creepy.

[Valmy]

What is your problem ?

Sleep deprivation mostly.

Have you considered trying politeness for a change ? 

Were exactly am I blaming the "simple facts of the modern world on a single politician" ?

I am speaking of my thoughts on the situation generally than specifically about you.

I was actually alluding to the political situation of the time, and trying to counter-balance some of the political myth-making that has sprung up in the subsequent 30 years.

Well I would counter with the observation that a very similar thing happened all over the first world.  The reason it was so traumatic in Britain I believe had more to do with its particular structures and the fact that those heavy industries had been around far longer and had become far more central to a culture than even in the former American industrial heartland.  I have a hard time not seeing a ferocious reaction and a vicious battle in the UK over de-industrialization no matter who was running it.

[Valmy]

Still doesn't explain the worship that Reagan gets.  I mean, when you have Republican debate in the Reagan museum where they talk about being in the "House of Reagan".  It's kind of creepy.

Yeah I do not get the Reagan worship at all.  I mean it does not even seem to be about any policies he actually had.

[mongers]

For the record here's Mrs Thatchers own handwritten notes she use to give a speech to the Tory 1922 committee, a theme of which was the notion of the enemy within.

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/105563

&/&/

Since Office

Enemy without — beaten him

& strong in defence

Enemy within —[fo 6] p8

Miners' leaders

Liverpool & some local authorities

— just as dangerous in a way more difficult to fight

But just as dangerous to liberty

Scar across the face of our country

ill motivated

ill intentioned

politically inspired[fo 7]

Not too hard to guess who the enemy without was. 

Is not this demonisation of some of her domestic opponents, in some way echoed in the venomous of celebration of few idiots and the more measured muted response by a great deal more people to the news ?

[Richard Hakluyt]

The plans for the coal mining industry were less drastic than the closure program that ensued after the strike. Arthur Scargill wanted that strike, he wanted it so much that he broke NUM rules and called for a national strike without having a pithead ballot of the members. This crippled the strike action right from the start as only 70% of the "union" members obeyed the call. He also ignored the fact that massive stocks of coal had been stockpiled at power stations as provision for the (deemed very likely) action that he took. I can't speak for the other old-fashioned industries but with Scargill at the helm there was no real possibility of a consensual reduction in the coal industry.

[Razgovory]

What is worse then Raz?

Cardinals relief pitching today 

Yeah, that's me.

[The Larch]

Whatever illusions of pity I had for the working class victims of Thatcher's policies were lost forever when I spent 3 days in Bodrum, Turkey.

We've been getting that since the 70s all over the Med.  Horrible British tourists, not necessarily working class ones. Fuck, every year the people of Salou get an invasion of British university students on their version of spring break. Stories about it are not nice to hear.

[The Larch]

Because to me, and it's not like I'm some sort of expert on the subject, it was nonetheless blindingly obvious that it was going to happen like this. Like... utterly unsurprising.

Good for you.  I did hear a lot of anti-Thatcher vitriol on the internet, but I guess I just chalked it up to hyperbole and didn't think people would be classless enough to literally pop the champagne upon hearing of her death.

People here talked a lot of shit about Reagan, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama.  But with time a lot of that hatred faded (and will fade for Obama once he's out of office for a few years).  And I guess that gets to why I in all my naivite was surprised-- that people still carried that big of a grudge against Thatcher after all this time.

That is because, and this is my personal impression, deep down and excepting an extremely vocal fringe, you Yanks are largely speaking extremely reverential of your authority figures, and the president is the top dog amongst them. You may not like him, and despise government and bureaucracy, but damn, he's the motherfucking president.

[Warspite]

The plans for the coal mining industry were less drastic than the closure program that ensued after the strike. Arthur Scargill wanted that strike, he wanted it so much that he broke NUM rules and called for a national strike without having a pithead ballot of the members. This crippled the strike action right from the start as only 70% of the "union" members obeyed the call. He also ignored the fact that massive stocks of coal had been stockpiled at power stations as provision for the (deemed very likely) action that he took. I can't speak for the other old-fashioned industries but with Scargill at the helm there was no real possibility of a consensual reduction in the coal industry.

Neil Kinnock said as much on Newsnight last night: he blames Scargill entirely because it was his antics that prevent any compromise with a leader who, at that stage, was still very pragmatic.