Thatcher's Politicial Legacy.

[Valmy]

Thanks, though I didn't know anything about the monetary thing when I brought up the band-aid metaphor.  I was talking about proping up uneconomic industries.  The timing indeed could have been better given that context.

[Jacob]

Thank you JR.  Very much appreciated.

Yup

[Neil]

You may be an outlier then.  I have had many a shit job in my time.  But I have always felt worse when I did not have a job.  Growing up I also witnessed first hand what unemployment did to friends, my parents, parents of friends and the community in which we lived.

Yeah, shit jobs are, by definition, shitty.  But the alternative is worse.

I'm going to agree with fhdz. While on the whole 2010 was a downpatch for me given the whole depression (and my large lack of desire to do anything during the day), I think I had more fun partying every night then I had working at that first job I had out of college - even once my disability payments dried up.  Though, of course, that first job was soul destroying and had been a primary trigger for my depression.

We're talking about soul-destroying.  Gays don't have souls.

[Neil]

This is a long about way of saying that ripping the band-aid off may not be such a good idea if the wound is still free flowing and surrounded by a vat of dangerous bacteria.

Depends on your priorities.  After all, the economy recovered eventually, but the once-in-a-century chance for the destruction of the internal enemies of one's country is priceless.

[garbon]

We're talking about soul-destroying.  Gays don't have souls.

Oh okay.

[Razgovory]

Hey Yi, what about tax cuts directed at a certain business?  Is that a handout?  Oh, or if the government renders a service to business such as preventing employees from striking?  Is that a handout?

If the tax break is an inducement for an activity the business would not otherwise be doing, then I would not call it a handout. 

Not sure what you mean by preventing employees from striking.  You mean like prodding them back to the assembly line at bayonet point?

What Joan is talking about, if I'm not mistaken, is the tightening of money supply pursued by the BoE concurrently with the Volker-led Fed in order to kill inflation.

There are lots of ways to prevent strikes.  Using soldiers is a tried and true method, but also using government resources for labor spies or passing laws that prevent certain types of strikes, using police to harassing labor organizers, etc.

Jake's response to what you wrote about handouts is the same as mine so I don't have to repeat it.

[Josephus]

Stop that. This is getting rather silly now.

[Ed Anger]

Stop that. This is getting rather silly now.

He didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

[garbon]

I dunno.  It happens all the time.  Cities will attract a business to the area by not collecting property tax for a certain amount of time.  If that counts as a handout, then vast number of businesses receive handouts.  Another trick is for a city to build road and sewer service out to where a business is promising to relocate.

All of which are handouts; beneficial and worthwhile ones on the face of it*, but still handouts. A handout isn't neccessarily a bad thing as part of an overall plan - I find Tyr's point exaggerated (there's only certain industries with that kind of major knock-on effect, the most famous one being automotive) but I agree with his point that there are sometimes valid reasons for giving handouts/government support. Once again I suspect he and I would differ greatly in the application of said policy...



*I say on the face ot it since I can remember reading recent articles that suggested that once you started giving out these handouts to attract the business a lot of them keep coming back for more handouts every few years in order to stay there - thus reducing the value gained from the initial handout. To be honest I suspect the article was posted on Languish - I remember thinking that I hoped that the local authorities concerned understood that it's perfectly legitimate to say no if the costs escalated beyond the benefits.

Is that really a handout though? Say I'm City Z and I want to attract business to my city so I offer incentives to businesses (let's say reduced taxes for 5 years). Those reduced taxes that I collected for 5 years and the full taxes that I'll make from the businesses, if it works, will be much more than I "lost" by offering reduced taxes to get businesses to my city (leaving aside sales/prop tax from the new citizens and workers).  That doesn't seem much different from when a store has a sale where customers get some items for cheap for a limited time and now having gone to that store are more likely to make another purchase at full price somewhere down the line.  Did the store give the customers a handout?

[MadImmortalMan]

Is that really a handout though? Say I'm City Z and I want to attract business to my city so I offer incentives to businesses (let's say reduced taxes for 5 years). Those reduced taxes that I collected for 5 years and the full taxes that I'll make from the businesses, if it works, will be much more than I "lost" by offering reduced taxes to get businesses to my city (leaving aside sales/prop tax from the new citizens and workers).  That doesn't seem much different from when a store has a sale where customers get some items for cheap for a limited time and now having gone to that store are more likely to make another purchase at full price somewhere down the line.  Did the store give the customers a handout?

In both cases, there is no opportunity cost, so I'd say no.

[Sheilbh]

As for fahdiz's argument that work for its own sake should not be valued, I accept that as a theological proposition, but not an economic or sociological one.  Long term unemployment, particularly if concentrated geographically, can have devastating long-run hysteresis effects in terms of eroding worker skill bases and permanently reducing the the skill levels and work habits of the next generation. 

I agree. I'd add that I think this was particularly severe in coal-mining areas because the private owners and, later, the National Coal Board discouraged other employers establishing in the area - that's probably one of the reasons the miners were generally badly paid (until the mid-70s).

The other particular Thatcherite problem is that she was a very centralising PM. So at a time when you had concentrated areas of high unemployment local government wasn't able to respond or for there to be different styles of response. That whole American idea of local government being the lab of democracy just didn't happen, which I think exacerbated the problem.

I mean unemployment was a problem for about 15 years from the early 80s. There was some improvement in some cities during New Labour - Manchester springs to mind. But still not enough.

I thought this poll was interesting:

Thatcher: divisive, half right and not "the greatest"

By John Rentoul
Eagle Eye
Saturday, 13 April 2013 at 7:26 pm

Voters disagree with David Cameron's description of Margaret Thatcher as "the greatest British peacetime prime minister" by 41 per cent to 33 per cent, according to a ComRes poll for tomorrow's Independent on Sunday, shared with the Sunday Mirror. And 60 per cent oppose taxpayer funding for next week's funeral.

The poll, taken on Wednesday and Thursday this week, found little evidence of a "Thatcher effect" on voting intentions, putting Labour's lead at eight points, down just one point since last month. UKIP are two points down on last month's record high:

Conservatives  30% (+2)
Labour   38% (+1)
UKIP   15% (-2)
Lib Dem   8% (-1)
Others   9% (0)

(Change since last month's ComRes online poll for Independent on Sunday & Sunday Mirror.)

Do you agree or disagree:

Margaret Thatcher was Britain's greatest peacetime Prime Minister
Agree 33% Disagree 41% Don't know 26%

Only in the 65-plus age group do more people agree (46%) than disagree (38%).

Public attitudes to her are apparently contradictory, with a majority agreeing both that she was "the most divisive prime minister this country has had" and that Britain needs more "conviction politicians" like her:
Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive Prime Minister this country has had that I can remember
Agree 59% Disagree 18%

Britain today needs more 'conviction politicians' like Margaret Thatcher
Agree 56% Disagree 26%

Conservative voters agree by 88% to 3%; Labour voters are more likely to disagree (47%) than agree (34%).

Margaret Thatcher's ceremonial funeral should not be funded by taxpayers
Agree 60% Disagree 25%

A third (32%) of Conservative voters agree, as do a majority of voters from every other party.

Margaret Thatcher was right to require trade unions to hold secret ballots before strikes
Agree 52% Disagree 20% Don't know 28%

We received a better level of service from gas, electricity and telephone companies after privatisation
Agree 25% Disagree 38% Don't know 38%

Overall, Margaret Thatcher's policies were right for the country at the time
Agree 45% Disagree 34%

Margaret Thatcher's economic policies did more harm than good
Agree 39% Disagree 35% Don't know 26%

Which of the following, if any, will you most remember Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher for?
Curbing the power of trade unions / the miners' strike 49%
The Falklands War 47%
The Poll Tax 39%
Privatisation of nationalised industries e.g. gas, electricity, telecoms 30%
Council housing 'right to buy' 27%
Unemployment 17%
Her role in ending the Cold War 8%
Her relationship with Europe 5%
Northern Ireland / hunger strikes 4%
None of the above 8%

Respondents could choose up to three.

ComRes interviewed 2,012 GB adults online on 10 and 11 April 2013. Data were weighted to be demographically representative of all GB adults. Data were also weighted by past vote recall. ComRes is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules. Full tables at ComRes.

Edit: Incidentally I think one of the bigger political legacies is the damage that her reign, betrayal and behaviour as the 'unbeaten' leader caused the Tories.

[Razgovory]

I've been unemployed for like a decade, and I'm fine.

[Neil]

I've been unemployed for like a decade, and I'm fine.

Unemployed isn't the same as unemployable, and you're not fine.

[derspiess]

Dunno if anyone caught this over the weekend:

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/history-of-punk/n35542

[Neil]

Yeah, I laughed.