50-Point Swing Against Targeted Drone Killings of U.S. Citizens

[Neil]

I'm just saying that Ruby Ridge would have been a lot better if they had put a hellfire through the window.

[Eddie Teach]

He's not exactly the first high profile GOP politician to tell people that Obama is actively trying to kill them.

Clearly not, as he hasn't exactly said that.

[derspiess]

I'm just saying that Ruby Ridge would have been a lot better if they had put a hellfire through the window.

Yeah, want to make sure you kill that baby, too.  Killing her unarmed mother just wasn't enough.

[DGuller]

I'm just saying that Ruby Ridge would have been a lot better if they had put a hellfire through the window.

Yeah, want to make sure you kill that baby, too.  Killing her unarmed mother just wasn't enough.

Meh, she bought her own ticket.  If you don't want to be shot by a sniper, don't hang out with nut jobs targeted by snipers.

[derspiess]

Meh, she bought her own ticket.  If you don't want to be shot by a sniper, don't hang out with nut jobs targeted by snipers.

Nutjobs or not, that episode was a colossal cock-up, from the questionable weapons charges to the incorrect court date given to Weaver to the rules of engagement. 

[Razgovory]

Sympathy for Nazis is noted.

[derspiess]

Sympathy for Nazis is noted.

[Neil]

I'm just saying that Ruby Ridge would have been a lot better if they had put a hellfire through the window.

Yeah, want to make sure you kill that baby, too.  Killing her unarmed mother just wasn't enough.

Kill 'em all.  When crazies are determined to make war on the United States, their support structures are legitimate targets.

[DGuller]

I'm just saying that Ruby Ridge would have been a lot better if they had put a hellfire through the window.

Yeah, want to make sure you kill that baby, too.  Killing her unarmed mother just wasn't enough.

Kill 'em all.  When crazies are determined to make war on the United States, their support structures are legitimate targets.

How many lives could've been saved if we just eliminated the whole Ruby Ridge gang quietly, before they raised the stink that drew attention to them?

[Razgovory]

I wonder if Randy Weaver would have as much sympathy amongst Conservative-Libertarian types if he was a black radical instead of an white Aryan Nations type.  They can often tell exactly the crimes of the overstretching government at Ruby Ridge but are often ignorant of the MOVE debacle less then ten years previous where the police dropped a fucking bombing on a house and accidentally burned down a whole city block.

[jimmy olsen]

Sympathy for Nazis is noted.

They won their court case for wrongful death didn't they, which is almost impossible to do. That means their case was incredibly strong.

[Razgovory]

Sympathy for Nazis is noted.

They won their court case for wrongful death didn't they, which is almost impossible to do. That means their case was incredibly strong.

The Nazis?  I don't recall that happening.  In fact a whole bunch of them were hung after the war.  If you mean Weaver, that's not almost impossible to do.  It's a civil case so the hurdle is much lower then a criminal one.

[KRonn]

I wonder if Randy Weaver would have as much sympathy amongst Conservative-Libertarian types if he was a black radical instead of an white Aryan Nations type.  They can often tell exactly the crimes of the overstretching government at Ruby Ridge but are often ignorant of the MOVE debacle less then ten years previous where the police dropped a fucking bombing on a house and accidentally burned down a whole city block.

Well, I guess if he was a black radical then "other types" would have been up in arms over innocents being killed while targeting the criminal.   

I think it's more a debate of was it correct legal procedures of what was done, regardless of who was being targeted.

We're even having debates now on whether killing AQ affiliated Americans overseas is ok, including innocents near them, which did happen. 

[Martinus]

Isn't the whole "US citizen" thing a red herring?

I believe it was Minsky who once explained at length why there is really no constitutional basis in the US Constitution to differentiate the legal status of a US citizen and a non-US citizen.

That was me, actually. 

And yes, the use of drones and Hellfire missiles raises a real concern about due process and the just use of lethal force by the US government.  On the one hand, these strikes are carried out in territories that are not under the rule of law, by and large, and so apprehension isn't possible.  On the other, there does not seem to be a published set of criteria by which the President decides who can be assassinated, so the process seems arbitrary.  I am also not sure that the collateral casualties can be justified by the results (al-Alwaki's 16-year-old son was also killed by drone strike, though in this case it was targeted at someone else).

There is no clear answer.  However, I think that it is clear that the US public has a right to know the conditions under which its executive branch is authorizing the assassinations.  The Obama and Bush administrations have stonewalled the question, which I think is only feeding the "if the strikes are truly justified, why are they hiding the justifications" sentiment.

Normally I would agree with you, but this is one of these cases where the public simply will not have enough data to make an informed decision.

In such case I favour letting the public elect the guy who will make an informed decision, rather than letting the public take the decision itself.

[Kleves]

Yeah, want to make sure you kill that baby, too.  Killing her unarmed mother just wasn't enough.

Nits make lice.