50-Point Swing Against Targeted Drone Killings of U.S. Citizens

Started by jimmy olsen, March 25, 2013, 05:58:09 PM

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Razgovory

#75
March 26, 2013, 08:29:57 PM
Where were they driving a truck?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

CountDeMoney

#76
March 26, 2013, 08:35:26 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 26, 2013, 08:24:17 PM
It's probably hair-splitting by this point (or not) but the two US citizens killed by drone strike were not found armed on a battlefield attacking United States personnel but were driving a truck at the time they were killed.

Would probably have failed emissions anyway.  They got what was comin' to 'em for what they done to Ned.   Better not cut up, nor otherwise harm no whores, or there'll be more drones.

fhdz

#77
March 27, 2013, 01:51:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 26, 2013, 08:29:57 PM
Where were they driving a truck?

On a road, presumably.
and the horse you rode in on

Razgovory

#78
March 27, 2013, 02:20:17 AM
Ah, I thought you were going somewhere with this, I guess not.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

fhdz

#79
March 27, 2013, 02:30:45 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 27, 2013, 02:20:17 AM
Ah, I thought you were going somewhere with this, I guess not.

I was pointing out that the situation ulmont described was not the one in which the US citizens were actually killed.
and the horse you rode in on

Martinus

#80
March 27, 2013, 02:39:17 AM
Isn't the whole "US citizen" thing a red herring?

I believe it was Minsky who once explained at length why there is really no constitutional basis in the US Constitution to differentiate the legal status of a US citizen and a non-US citizen.

garbon

#81
March 27, 2013, 01:41:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 02:39:17 AM
Isn't the whole "US citizen" thing a red herring?

I believe it was Minsky who once explained at length why there is really no constitutional basis in the US Constitution to differentiate the legal status of a US citizen and a non-US citizen.

Not a red herring for people who care more about US citizens than non-US citizens. :ph34r:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

ulmont

#82
March 27, 2013, 02:04:50 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 26, 2013, 08:24:17 PM
Quote from: ulmont on March 26, 2013, 07:34:41 PM
Define "due process of law."  The administration's position, as I understand it, is that "due process of law" is context-sensitive.  Intuitively, I think we all agree that the "due process" necessary before killing a person found armed on a battlefield and attacking United States personnel is relatively low.

It's probably hair-splitting by this point (or not) but the two US citizens killed by drone strike were not found armed on a battlefield attacking United States personnel but were driving a truck at the time they were killed.

It's hair-splitting, as I was only noting the context sensitivity of "due" process.

With respect to Anwar al-Awlaki, I don't have any firsthand knowledge of the facts, but note that he was reported to have been tracked on multiple occasions and unsuccessfully engaged by American forces.

Razgovory

#83
March 27, 2013, 02:18:55 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 27, 2013, 02:30:45 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 27, 2013, 02:20:17 AM
Ah, I thought you were going somewhere with this, I guess not.

I was pointing out that the situation ulmont described was not the one in which the US citizens were actually killed.

That's not exactly mutually exclusive to what Ulmont described.  You can drive down a road in a battlefield.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

grumbler

#85
March 27, 2013, 06:13:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 02:39:17 AM
Isn't the whole "US citizen" thing a red herring?

I believe it was Minsky who once explained at length why there is really no constitutional basis in the US Constitution to differentiate the legal status of a US citizen and a non-US citizen.
That was me, actually. 

And yes, the use of drones and Hellfire missiles raises a real concern about due process and the just use of lethal force by the US government.  On the one hand, these strikes are carried out in territories that are not under the rule of law, by and large, and so apprehension isn't possible.  On the other, there does not seem to be a published set of criteria by which the President decides who can be assassinated, so the process seems arbitrary.  I am also not sure that the collateral casualties can be justified by the results (al-Alwaki's 16-year-old son was also killed by drone strike, though in this case it was targeted at someone else).

There is no clear answer.  However, I think that it is clear that the US public has a right to know the conditions under which its executive branch is authorizing the assassinations.  The Obama and Bush administrations have stonewalled the question, which I think is only feeding the "if the strikes are truly justified, why are they hiding the justifications" sentiment.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Neil

#86
March 27, 2013, 06:48:05 PM
Quote from: Maximus on March 26, 2013, 10:27:46 AM
The drones are irrelevant. Killings are justified or not regardless of the tools used to accomplish them.
The thread has been won.

Maybe Rand Paul is worried about drones because he's afraid that they'll use hellfire missiles on his militia/domestic terrorist buddies.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Razgovory

#87
March 27, 2013, 07:56:13 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 27, 2013, 06:48:05 PM
Quote from: Maximus on March 26, 2013, 10:27:46 AM
The drones are irrelevant. Killings are justified or not regardless of the tools used to accomplish them.
The thread has been won.

Maybe Rand Paul is worried about drones because he's afraid that they'll use hellfire missiles on his militia/domestic terrorist buddies.

That's the fear he wishes to stir up.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

derspiess

#88
March 27, 2013, 08:15:25 PM
:lol:
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Razgovory

#89
March 27, 2013, 08:23:07 PM
He's not exactly the first high profile GOP politician to tell people that Obama is actively trying to kill them.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017
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