14-year old Pakistani girl activist shot by Taliban

Started by merithyn, October 09, 2012, 03:21:05 PM

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garbon

Quote from: merithyn on October 11, 2012, 10:31:44 PM
but it sure didn't start out this cultural haven you so love.

Is it even that? I still know Christians who though who seem to care about me, are still convinced that I'm going to hell if pressed.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

merithyn

Quote from: garbon on October 11, 2012, 10:36:59 PM
Is it even that? I still know Christians who though who seem to care about me, are still convinced that I'm going to hell if pressed.

I don't believe it is, no, but Spellus seems to think so, and he's holding all other "newer" religions up and finding them wanting comparatively. Not only wanting, but loathsome.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Razgovory

Quote from: garbon on October 11, 2012, 10:30:03 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on October 11, 2012, 10:21:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 11, 2012, 10:15:06 PM

It's always sad how closed-minded so called American liberals are.
My preference for traditional Christianity over New Age faiths is proof of how indoctrinated I am as an American Liberal?

It isn't a preference issue though but rather how you appear to loath something largely innocuous like neo-paganism.

Innocuous?  I remind you that Himmler was neo-pagan.  In fact the right wing, racist aspect of it was the predominant aspect until WWII.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

garbon

Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2012, 10:43:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 11, 2012, 10:30:03 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on October 11, 2012, 10:21:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 11, 2012, 10:15:06 PM

It's always sad how closed-minded so called American liberals are.
My preference for traditional Christianity over New Age faiths is proof of how indoctrinated I am as an American Liberal?

It isn't a preference issue though but rather how you appear to loath something largely innocuous like neo-paganism.

Innocuous?  I remind you that Himmler was neo-pagan.  In fact the right wing, racist aspect of it was the predominant aspect until WWII.

And Hitler painted. The arts are evil and corrupting?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Sheilbh

#289
Quote from: merithyn on October 11, 2012, 04:03:15 PM
I know. You've told us all of that before. It's why I said what I said, specifically the bolded part. Your background was one of breaking free from that which you were taught was law, and finding your own path. I mistakenly assumed that you might recognize that as a valid option in life for others.
Lord no. 

QuoteI think what you mean is: I know better than anyone else how to find personal fullfillment for myself. How that's the height of hubris, I don't know. Shouldn't the individual be the best judge of finding that fullfillment for his or herself?
Religion's not about personal fulfilment.  Aside from that I, unsurprisingly, broadly agree with Spellus.

Edit:  Also on the whole Salem-Wicca thing I knew a lecturer at Bristol who was a serious pagan, but also a specialist in Stuart England - in particular the witch hunts - and paganism.  His views are quite fun and bracing.  He's sort-of half loved by the Pagans for being a serious historian writing interesting books and doing good research and half hated because he doesn't believe they're part of an ancient nature religion (though he thinks there are continuities, and they survived in Christianity too) and he thinks the common Pagain idea of early matriarchy 'rather delightful', but not at all true.  Very interesting guy though.
Let's bomb Russia!

merithyn

Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2012, 10:43:41 PM
Innocuous?  I remind you that Himmler was neo-pagan.  In fact the right wing, racist aspect of it was the predominant aspect until WWII.

And Son of Sam was a devout Christian, as are most serial killers. What's your point?
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Neil

Quote from: Queequeg on October 11, 2012, 10:25:50 PM
I very seriously doubt that there would have been a Jewish ethnicity in 1900 if the Jewish religion had stopped existing in any of the proceeding centuries.  I think it is hard to argue that there isn't a relationship between the religion and the ethnicity.
I don't have to make that argument though.  The argument that I am making is that the Nazis didn't kill Jews because they kept kosher, or because they wore ringlets and those silly little aprons, or because of circumcision.  They killed them because they were Jewish.  They didn't spare people with Jewish ancestry that had been assimilated into societies for decades or centuries.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

The Brain

Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Sheilbh

Also I though Spellus may be intrigued by this, from the Plymouth International Book Festival:
http://www.mobydickbigread.com/
Let's bomb Russia!

Viking

Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 11, 2012, 07:10:17 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 11, 2012, 01:13:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 11, 2012, 01:08:13 PM
Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

Who said that neo-paganism has to stem from Greco-Roman models? The late Classical Pagans were brought up as the last example of respectable pagans.
Surely there must be respectable Hindus. Hinduism, like the Greco-Roman and Norse pantheons derives from the original Indo-European pantheon does it not?  So does it not count as Pagan?

EDIT: Beaten by Razberry  :(

Your mixing identity and attribute here. Plato talks quite a bit about it.

A Respectable Person Who is a Pagan /= A Person Who Is A Respectable Pagan

The Respectable Pagans of late antiquity had long since abandoned polytheism. Neo-Platonist Pagans were monotheists. They had a rigorous justification from first principles of their faith. I know that means it isn't actually a faith, but rather metaphysical science.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Maximus

Quote from: Sheilbh on October 11, 2012, 11:01:44 PM
For me, religion's not about personal fulfilment.
fixed

If what you find fulfilling about religion is that that it's not about personal fulfillment then that's fine, but you don't get to define what religion is about for other people.

garbon

Quote from: Maximus on October 12, 2012, 08:01:15 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 11, 2012, 11:01:44 PM
For me, religion's not about personal fulfilment.
fixed

If what you find fulfilling about religion is that that it's not about personal fulfillment then that's fine, but you don't get to define what religion is about for other people.

Yeah, Raz seems to suffer from that same issue as well.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

mongers

Quote from: garbon on October 12, 2012, 08:27:08 AM
Quote from: Maximus on October 12, 2012, 08:01:15 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 11, 2012, 11:01:44 PM
For me, religion's not about personal fulfilment.
fixed

If what you find fulfilling about religion is that that it's not about personal fulfillment then that's fine, but you don't get to define what religion is about for other people.

Yeah, Raz seems to suffer from that same issue as well.

Yeah, it does seem somewhat odd that Shelf and Raz are defining what are valid religious beliefs for others to have; something islamists are also keen on doing.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

merithyn

Quote from: mongers on October 12, 2012, 10:25:34 AM
Yeah, it does seem somewhat odd that Shelf and Raz are defining what are valid religious beliefs for others to have; something islamists are also keen on doing.

Don't forget Viking. He's doing the same, even if his "religion" of choice is the lack of one.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Viking

Quote from: merithyn on October 12, 2012, 10:31:44 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 12, 2012, 10:25:34 AM
Yeah, it does seem somewhat odd that Shelf and Raz are defining what are valid religious beliefs for others to have; something islamists are also keen on doing.

Don't forget Viking. He's doing the same, even if his "religion" of choice is the lack of one.

Well, the thing is words have meaning. If you are going to ignore the bulk of the Koran then your claim to be a muslim is in doubt. If you call yourself a catholic then that has meaning, you don't just get to make it up. The word Religion has a meaning as well. If the word religion can mean anything you want it to mean the word no longer means anything and the concept itself is meaningless.

If a word can mean anything it means nothing.

This is why post-modernism pisses me off so much and why I don't respect people who use this kind of justification for their faith. It is an attack on language itself.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.