14-year old Pakistani girl activist shot by Taliban

[garbon]

but it sure didn't start out this cultural haven you so love.

Is it even that? I still know Christians who though who seem to care about me, are still convinced that I'm going to hell if pressed.

[merithyn]

Is it even that? I still know Christians who though who seem to care about me, are still convinced that I'm going to hell if pressed.

I don't believe it is, no, but Spellus seems to think so, and he's holding all other "newer" religions up and finding them wanting comparatively. Not only wanting, but loathsome.

[Razgovory]

It's always sad how closed-minded so called American liberals are.

My preference for traditional Christianity over New Age faiths is proof of how indoctrinated I am as an American Liberal?

It isn't a preference issue though but rather how you appear to loath something largely innocuous like neo-paganism.

Innocuous?  I remind you that Himmler was neo-pagan.  In fact the right wing, racist aspect of it was the predominant aspect until WWII.

[garbon]

It's always sad how closed-minded so called American liberals are.

My preference for traditional Christianity over New Age faiths is proof of how indoctrinated I am as an American Liberal?

It isn't a preference issue though but rather how you appear to loath something largely innocuous like neo-paganism.

Innocuous?  I remind you that Himmler was neo-pagan.  In fact the right wing, racist aspect of it was the predominant aspect until WWII.

And Hitler painted. The arts are evil and corrupting?

[Sheilbh]

I know. You've told us all of that before. It's why I said what I said, specifically the bolded part. Your background was one of breaking free from that which you were taught was law, and finding your own path. I mistakenly assumed that you might recognize that as a valid option in life for others.

Lord no. 

I think what you mean is: I know better than anyone else how to find personal fullfillment for myself. How that's the height of hubris, I don't know. Shouldn't the individual be the best judge of finding that fullfillment for his or herself?

Religion's not about personal fulfilment.  Aside from that I, unsurprisingly, broadly agree with Spellus.

Edit:  Also on the whole Salem-Wicca thing I knew a lecturer at Bristol who was a serious pagan, but also a specialist in Stuart England - in particular the witch hunts - and paganism.  His views are quite fun and bracing.  He's sort-of half loved by the Pagans for being a serious historian writing interesting books and doing good research and half hated because he doesn't believe they're part of an ancient nature religion (though he thinks there are continuities, and they survived in Christianity too) and he thinks the common Pagain idea of early matriarchy 'rather delightful', but not at all true.  Very interesting guy though.

[merithyn]

Innocuous?  I remind you that Himmler was neo-pagan.  In fact the right wing, racist aspect of it was the predominant aspect until WWII.

And Son of Sam was a devout Christian, as are most serial killers. What's your point?

[Neil]

I very seriously doubt that there would have been a Jewish ethnicity in 1900 if the Jewish religion had stopped existing in any of the proceeding centuries.  I think it is hard to argue that there isn't a relationship between the religion and the ethnicity.

I don't have to make that argument though.  The argument that I am making is that the Nazis didn't kill Jews because they kept kosher, or because they wore ringlets and those silly little aprons, or because of circumcision.  They killed them because they were Jewish.  They didn't spare people with Jewish ancestry that had been assimilated into societies for decades or centuries.

[The Brain]

Moby Dick is overrated.

You have to be an American to really appreciate it.

Fuck you.

[Sheilbh]

Also I though Spellus may be intrigued by this, from the Plymouth International Book Festival:
http://www.mobydickbigread.com/

[Viking]

Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

Who said that neo-paganism has to stem from Greco-Roman models? The late Classical Pagans were brought up as the last example of respectable pagans.

Surely there must be respectable Hindus. Hinduism, like the Greco-Roman and Norse pantheons derives from the original Indo-European pantheon does it not?  So does it not count as Pagan?

EDIT: Beaten by Razberry 

Your mixing identity and attribute here. Plato talks quite a bit about it.

A Respectable Person Who is a Pagan /= A Person Who Is A Respectable Pagan

The Respectable Pagans of late antiquity had long since abandoned polytheism. Neo-Platonist Pagans were monotheists. They had a rigorous justification from first principles of their faith. I know that means it isn't actually a faith, but rather metaphysical science.

[Maximus]

For me, religion's not about personal fulfilment.

fixed

If what you find fulfilling about religion is that that it's not about personal fulfillment then that's fine, but you don't get to define what religion is about for other people.

[garbon]

For me, religion's not about personal fulfilment.

fixed

If what you find fulfilling about religion is that that it's not about personal fulfillment then that's fine, but you don't get to define what religion is about for other people.

Yeah, Raz seems to suffer from that same issue as well.

[mongers]

For me, religion's not about personal fulfilment.

fixed

If what you find fulfilling about religion is that that it's not about personal fulfillment then that's fine, but you don't get to define what religion is about for other people.

Yeah, Raz seems to suffer from that same issue as well.

Yeah, it does seem somewhat odd that Shelf and Raz are defining what are valid religious beliefs for others to have; something islamists are also keen on doing.

[merithyn]

Yeah, it does seem somewhat odd that Shelf and Raz are defining what are valid religious beliefs for others to have; something islamists are also keen on doing.

Don't forget Viking. He's doing the same, even if his "religion" of choice is the lack of one.

[Viking]

Yeah, it does seem somewhat odd that Shelf and Raz are defining what are valid religious beliefs for others to have; something islamists are also keen on doing.

Don't forget Viking. He's doing the same, even if his "religion" of choice is the lack of one.

Well, the thing is words have meaning. If you are going to ignore the bulk of the Koran then your claim to be a muslim is in doubt. If you call yourself a catholic then that has meaning, you don't just get to make it up. The word Religion has a meaning as well. If the word religion can mean anything you want it to mean the word no longer means anything and the concept itself is meaningless.

If a word can mean anything it means nothing.

This is why post-modernism pisses me off so much and why I don't respect people who use this kind of justification for their faith. It is an attack on language itself.