14-year old Pakistani girl activist shot by Taliban

[merithyn]

Every Wiccan I've met has been a total fruit loop.

Worse than the granola-birkenstocks-patchouli-hairy pits crowd, definitely.

I admit that I tend to think poorly of Wiccans, but that's because the few that I've met were less than pleasant people. I don't, however, paint everyone who follows that faith with the same broad brush. I'm absolutely certain that there are regular people who happen to believe in that particular religion, even if I haven't met any yet. At least, I hope so.

[Barrister]

Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

I said respectable. Slaughtering captured soldiers for Tiwaz, forming Thor's hammer out of the entrails of Christians, or ritual cannibalism to honor Perun isn't respectable. It was hideous, horrifying superstition.

Wow. I didn't realize that modern Pagans did that! Well, since you put it that... oh wait. They don't. 

Coming from your background, I would think you would be a little more understanding (and certainly less scathing) about alternative religions from the The Big Three. Surely you recognize that people have a right to find their own way without having to bend to what's most common or understood or known.

They certainly do not.

[merithyn]

They certainly do not.

Even if they're allowed to wear pleated pants during their rituals?

[Razgovory]

Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

Who said that neo-paganism has to stem from Greco-Roman models? The late Classical Pagans were brought up as the last example of respectable pagans.

What about India?  They are essentially Indo-European paganism.  If someone were really serious about paganism they'd go that route.  But that's hard, and some people would like some flaky faith they just made up that corresponds to their political beliefs.  Also, Indo-European paganism tended to be rather racist (which what attracted extreme right wing groups to in the 19th and 20th century).

Religion isn't suppose to be easy.  It's about sacrifice, restraint, self-discipline, yes even scholarship.  It's hard.  Take Catholicism for instance, you ever try to be good Catholic?  I mean, really delve deep into what it means, and practice it?  It's fucking hard.  Hell it's nigh impossible.  That's part of the point.  You draw strength from it, because you work at it.  It's making you stronger.

[garbon]

Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

I said respectable. Slaughtering captured soldiers for Tiwaz, forming Thor's hammer out of the entrails of Christians, or ritual cannibalism to honor Perun isn't respectable. It was hideous, horrifying superstition.

Wow. I didn't realize that modern Pagans did that! Well, since you put it that... oh wait. They don't. 

I also like that the only sources neo-pagans can draw from are the pagan religions of Europe.

[Viking]

Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

Who said that neo-paganism has to stem from Greco-Roman models? The late Classical Pagans were brought up as the last example of respectable pagans.

As garbon said, it's about drawing spiritual inspiration. I know that you don't see the value in that for yourself, but surely even you recognize that there must be value in finding spiritual inspiration for many or religions wouldn't exist at all.

Thats a non-sequiter to the post you are replying to. garbon seemed to accuse me and spellus of demanding that all pagans be olympian style pagans. We have both denied holding that position.


OK, but take on your post. Tell me what "spiritual inspiration" is. Our brain can produce mystical and ecstatic experiences, brain chemistry is funny that way. What is it that we need a non-material source to explain an inspirational experience?

[garbon]

Religion isn't suppose to be easy.  It's about sacrifice, restraint, self-discipline, yes even scholarship.  It's hard.  Take Catholicism for instance, you ever try to be good Catholic?  I mean, really delve deep into what it means, and practice it?  It's fucking hard.  Hell it's nigh impossible.  That's part of the point.  You draw strength from it, because you work at it.  It's making you stronger.

That might be one view, but I'm not sure that's even a prevailing view these days.

[garbon]

Thats a non-sequiter to the post you are replying to. garbon seemed to accuse me and spellus of demanding that all pagans be olympian style pagans. We have both denied holding that position.

Psellus noted the last respectable pagans and I took issue with the notion that those were the last respectable ones as their have been many pagans from many different regions since then.

[merithyn]

What about India?  They are essentially Indo-European paganism.  If someone were really serious about paganism they'd go that route.  But that's hard, and some people would like some flaky faith they just made up that corresponds to their political beliefs.  Also, Indo-European paganism tended to be rather racist (which what attracted extreme right wing groups to in the 19th and 20th century).

Religion isn't suppose to be easy.  It's about sacrifice, restraint, self-discipline, yes even scholarship.  It's hard.  Take Catholicism for instance, you ever try to be good Catholic?  I mean, really delve deep into what it means, and practice it?  It's fucking hard.  Hell it's nigh impossible.  That's part of the point.  You draw strength from it, because you work at it.  It's making you stronger.

Just curious. Beyond the white-washed version you see in movies and in the odd newspaper article about flaky folks in the woods, what do you actually know about any Pagan religions? Do you have any idea whatsoever is required by any of them in order to be on the "correct" path for themselves? Because from what I've read there is no easy path, especially when they're trying to figure it all out for themselves.

As for "if someone were really serious about paganism", you say that as if these people have just gone, "I think I'm going to be pagan!" rather than that they found a spiritual path that resonnated with them and they decided to look more into it. Most Pagans know a good bit about the Eastern religions - probably far more than you do - and have incorporated a lot of those systems into their own. Meditation is a prime example.

[Viking]

Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

Who said that neo-paganism has to stem from Greco-Roman models? The late Classical Pagans were brought up as the last example of respectable pagans.

What about India?  They are essentially Indo-European paganism.  If someone were really serious about paganism they'd go that route.  But that's hard, and some people would like some flaky faith they just made up that corresponds to their political beliefs.  Also, Indo-European paganism tended to be rather racist (which what attracted extreme right wing groups to in the 19th and 20th century).

Religion isn't suppose to be easy.  It's about sacrifice, restraint, self-discipline, yes even scholarship.  It's hard.  Take Catholicism for instance, you ever try to be good Catholic?  I mean, really delve deep into what it means, and practice it?  It's fucking hard.  Hell it's nigh impossible.  That's part of the point.  You draw strength from it, because you work at it.  It's making you stronger.

Sometimes I get tempted to reply to Raz, but then I remember who and what Raz is, the thing is none of the above is true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4

[merithyn]

OK, but take on your post. Tell me what "spiritual inspiration" is. Our brain can produce mystical and ecstatic experiences, brain chemistry is funny that way. What is it that we need a non-material source to explain an inspirational experience?

Some need not only the experience but verbiage to discuss it, people with whom to discuss it, and a sense of community with others who have experienced something similar. That is what religion is.

[Viking]

OK, but take on your post. Tell me what "spiritual inspiration" is. Our brain can produce mystical and ecstatic experiences, brain chemistry is funny that way. What is it that we need a non-material source to explain an inspirational experience?

Some need not only the experience but verbiage to discuss it, people with whom to discuss it, and a sense of community with others who have experienced something similar. That is what religion is.

Basically you need to buy into spirituality to understand it, right? Do you have any idea how that just means it cannot possibly be true? Facts are what remain after we are no longer there.

[merithyn]

Basically you need to buy into spirituality to understand it, right? Do you have any idea how that just means it cannot possibly be true? Facts are what remain after we are no longer there.

And if facts were enough, there would be no religion. For a hell of a lot of people, facts just aren't enough. And what you define as "true" isn't the same as what I define as "true". To me, truth is what I not only know, but what I feel, think, am, and can be. None of those fit your criteria, which is fine. That way of thinking works for you. It doesn't for me.

There's a huge part of my life that doesn't rely strictly on facts. For me, my spirituality fills holes that straight facts leave. I don't think that requires that you buy into it to understand it. Ultimately, it requires that you accept that others have differing needs and desires than your own in life and spirituality is one of those things.

[Barrister]

They certainly do not.

Even if they're allowed to wear pleated pants during their rituals?

Not even then.

[Malthus]

Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

I said respectable. Slaughtering captured soldiers for Tiwaz, forming Thor's hammer out of the entrails of Christians, or ritual cannibalism to honor Perun isn't respectable. It was hideous, horrifying superstition.

Wow. I didn't realize that modern Pagans did that! Well, since you put it that... oh wait. They don't. 

Round here, they would almost certainly be better respected if they *did*.