14-year old Pakistani girl activist shot by Taliban

[derspiess]

Every Wiccan I've met has been a total fruit loop.

Worse than the granola-birkenstocks-patchouli-hairy pits crowd, definitely.

My Wiccan sample size is only 3, but I agree.

[Viking]

Basically you need to buy into spirituality to understand it, right? Do you have any idea how that just means it cannot possibly be true? Facts are what remain after we are no longer there.

And if facts were enough, there would be no religion.

Precisely. The metaphysical claims of religion are not true in the material world. They are only true in the fantasy in your mind.

For a hell of a lot of people, facts just aren't enough. And what you define as "true" isn't the same as what I define as "true". To me, truth is what I not only know, but what I feel, think, am, and can be. None of those fit your criteria, which is fine. That way of thinking works for you. It doesn't for me.

Facts are. Reality is usually not enough for most people, that is why there are religions. If spirituality is pretending that a fantasy is true then it is not only BS, but harmful BS.

There's a huge part of my life that doesn't rely strictly on facts. For me, my spirituality fills holes that straight facts leave. I don't think that requires that you buy into it to understand it. Ultimately, it requires that you accept that others have differing needs and desires than your own in life and spirituality is one of those things.

Again. What is spirituality?

I don't have to accept anybody else's delusions as relevant and I get to mock them if people pretend that their delusions should matter to me.

[garbon]

Fantasy is harmful?

[garbon]

Also what happens when we don't have all the facts? Is it surprising that people might speculate?

[Maximus]

What about India?  They are essentially Indo-European paganism. If someone were really serious about paganism they'd go that route.

Why the hell would that be true? Surely following your own religion is more serious than one someone else defines?

[Viking]

Fantasy is harmful?

No, relying on fantasy is.

Also what happens when we don't have all the facts? Is it surprising that people might speculate?

When we don't have all the fact we don't go around pretending that something not supported by the facts is true. Speculate all you want, just don't pretend to have knowledge based on ignorance.

[Maximus]

Precisely. The metaphysical claims of religion are not true in the material world. They are only true in the fantasy in your mind.

Facts are. Reality is usually not enough for most people, that is why there are religions. If spirituality is pretending that a fantasy is true then it is not only BS, but harmful BS.

Something that is true within the mind is real within that scope.

Beliefs are things that are true within the mind.

If something can have real effects on the material world it is real in the material world.

The contents of the mind can affect the material world through the actions of the individual.

Ergo beliefs are materially real.

QED

[garbon]

Fantasy is harmful?

No, relying on fantasy is.

But sometimes that is all you have.

When we don't have all the fact we don't go around pretending that something not supported by the facts is true. Speculate all you want, just don't pretend to have knowledge based on ignorance.

Except that you eventually have to act as though something is true - unless you are just going to stay paralyzed by not knowing.  Mundane example - choosing to believe that one's spouse is not cheating on one. In many cases, it isn't really possible to be certain that such is the case but one either has to act as though that's true or end the relationship. Anything in between will just be needlessly painful.

[merithyn]

Precisely. The metaphysical claims of religion are not true in the material world. They are only true in the fantasy in your mind.

If that's true, why is that bad? How do my mental gymnastics that help me lead a happier more fullfilled life matter to you in the least?

Facts are. Reality is usually not enough for most people, that is why there are religions. If spirituality is pretending that a fantasy is true then it is not only BS, but harmful BS.

Harmful? Pretending? My mental gymnastics to lead a better life are very real to me, and it does help guide me to being a better person. And it is my reality. Just as two witnesses seeing an accident tell two different stories, two people who live a similar life can do so very differently, having two very different "realities". Because it's not yours doesn't make mine any less real.

Again. What is spirituality?

Sprituality is believing that there there is guidance from the spirit or soul. It can be intuition, going with the heart, or following the direction set down by another to lead a life that helps build continuity with the soul. It's a recognition that the soul goes beyond matter and that it is just as important.

I don't have to accept anybody else's delusions as relevant and I get to mock them if people pretend that their delusions should matter to me.

Actually, yes, you're right, you do. But in doing so you close yourself off entirely from a different perspective of life and limits your personal horizons. It means that your experiences in life are that much more shallow and colorless. It also closes you off from a large portion of the population who won't deal with you deciding that their reality is flawed and yours is the only "right" one.

And I'll be honest. I don't have a lot of desire to interact with a small, petty tirant who believes that his reality is the only valid one.

[Viking]

Precisely. The metaphysical claims of religion are not true in the material world. They are only true in the fantasy in your mind.

Facts are. Reality is usually not enough for most people, that is why there are religions. If spirituality is pretending that a fantasy is true then it is not only BS, but harmful BS.

Something that is true within the mind is real within that scope.

Beliefs are things that are true within the mind.

If something can have real effects on the material world it is real in the material world.

The contents of the mind can affect the material world through the actions of the individual.

Ergo beliefs are materially real.

QED

That is putting it trivially.

First of all there are facts about your brain chemistry and wiring of your neurons which are true. These are your emotions and memories. They do have an effect on the outside world through your body and what it does. False beliefs can affect your emotions and memories but that does not make false beliefs true. Yes, they are real in the sense that the have consequences, but they are false in the sense that they do not fit with reality.

You may believe that you once ran a sub 4 hr marathon or you have always paid at least 14% on your taxes, but those beliefs are only real in the sense that they really are beliefs, not that the facts that you believe to be true actually are true.

You are conflating two different statements

"I believe that x = true"

and

"x = true"

both are beliefs that affect the outside world, but "x = true" is either true or not true independent of your belief or even your existence or ability to hold any belief at all.

[CountDeMoney]

Every Wiccan I've met has been a total fruit loop.

Worse than the granola-birkenstocks-patchouli-hairy pits crowd, definitely.

My Wiccan sample size is only 3, but I agree.

Dude, that is 3 too many to come across in one's life.

[merithyn]

Yes, they are real in the sense that the have consequences, but they are false in the sense that they do not fit with reality.

The fact that they have consequences make them part of reality.

[Maximus]

You are conflating two different statements

"I believe that x = true"

and

"x = true"

both are beliefs that affect the outside world, but "x = true" is either true or not true independent of your belief or even your existence or ability to hold any belief at all.

I'm not conflating them. One has a truth value that is independent of belief and one has a truth value that is not. Both need to be accounted for. I do not hold to the belief that simply dismissing one of them makes it irrelevant. One might call that a fantasy.

[merithyn]

My Wiccan sample size is only 3, but I agree.

My sample size is a bit bigger (probably 12-15), and none of them were very lovely people. That doesn't mean that I judge the entire religion based on it.

[Viking]

Except that you eventually have to act as though something is true - unless you are just going to stay paralyzed by not knowing.  Mundane example - choosing to believe that one's spouse is not cheating on one. In many cases, it isn't really possible to be certain that such is the case but one either has to act as though that's true or end the relationship. Anything in between will just be needlessly painful.

In that case you'll have to admit to yourself that it is a guess and not based on knowledge. Kierkegaard's leap of faith was to guess then live as if the guess were true. My leap of faith is to guess and proceed knowing that it is a guess.

To press the issue a little further; there will never be a situation where you have literally no facts and there will almost never arise a situation that your brain cannot analogize with some previous situation you experience yourself or have been informed of by others. In almost all cases of choice we are choosing between alternatives supported by differing sets of incomplete imperfect facts. We must use the facts we have rather than invent knowledge based on non-facts.